Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hello Adam, All, You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might* logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects. It shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules versus making an entirely new rule(s). Calling it twisting is just misleading. I address this in my last email, which you apparently replied to without reading. Or saying anything, really. The rest of what you say seems baseless to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are. Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution. As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/ You're being a little too dramatic for my taste. If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for keeping track of *their* meteorites. This all rings too much of the recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land. http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/ Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking. You should read my last email. It really does address the antiquities aspect of things. And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from BLM land, it means that you're making money from finding them. Most such things require permits. It does seem inconvenient to me, so I can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but taking it this far just seemsa bit much. I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite hunter should care about these laws. Apparently the limit is 10 lbs per year, not 25. But how much Franconia do you really want? Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there are more. They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't find photos online. Not for fear of the government claiming them, but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in the field. Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that kind of information. And now his finds are being touted as examples of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of us Southwest hunters. [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding large meteorites? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?] That said, such a law won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm still not seeing the point of supporting either side. *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance. Seems like a qualitative judgement to me. Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites. But, as a group, our primary interest isn't the advancement
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Jason, The BLM's land?!?!?! Would you explain to me how _they_ acquired such real property? How they maintain it? How they staff their offices? How their employees go about eating? I'm clearly out of the loop - I was kinda under the impression that the group We assigned to manage land couldn't actually _own_ any land since buying, maintaining, staffing, enforcing, [...], it would require your money, Adam's money, and my money. I know I didn't authorize their actions. I suspect Adam didn't authorize their actions. So now we need a disclosure of precisely who did, and precisely what public hearings in the interest of the public to which they are SERVANTS decided this would be the case. And that's the ultimate point: The BLM doesn't OWN _any_ land. We The People can boot the entire lot of their leech-like and utterly worthless hineys out to the street any time we decide to defund them. Along with the rest of our alleged masters who exist only to serve us. Please don't fall into the trap of believing our government can own diddly-squat - that's the root of the issue here - they've overstepped the authority that WE have given them and need to be reminded of such. Many of the People seem to have also forgotten who actually runs this joint. They need to be reminded of who the masters actually are. Warmest Regards, --- Jodie Monday, December 3, 2012, 12:38:53 AM, you wrote: Hello Adam, All, You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might* logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects. It shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules versus making an entirely new rule(s). Calling it twisting is just misleading. I address this in my last email, which you apparently replied to without reading. Or saying anything, really. The rest of what you say seems baseless to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are. Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution. As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/ You're being a little too dramatic for my taste. If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for keeping track of *their* meteorites. This all rings too much of the recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land. http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/ Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking. You should read my last email. It really does address the antiquities aspect of things. And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from BLM land, it means that you're making money from finding them. Most such things require permits. It does seem inconvenient to me, so I can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but taking it this far just seemsa bit much. I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite hunter should care about these laws. Apparently the limit is 10 lbs per year, not 25. But how much Franconia do you really want? Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
seems baseless to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are. Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution. As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/ You're being a little too dramatic for my taste. If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for keeping track of *their* meteorites. This all rings too much of the recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land. http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/ Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking. You should read my last email. It really does address the antiquities aspect of things. And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from BLM land, it means that you're making money from finding them. Most such things require permits. It does seem inconvenient to me, so I can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but taking it this far just seemsa bit much. I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite hunter should care about these laws. Apparently the limit is 10 lbs per year, not 25. But how much Franconia do you really want? Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there are more. They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't find photos online. Not for fear of the government claiming them, but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in the field. Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that kind of information. And now his finds are being touted as examples of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of us Southwest hunters. [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding large meteorites? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?] That said, such a law won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm still not seeing the point of supporting either side. *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance. Seems like a qualitative judgement to me. Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites. But, as a group, our primary interest isn't the advancement of science. That much is very clear. We're all interested in it to different extents, but we're not donating our finds to science beyond what we have to (some folks give a bit more, but it's almost always a fraction of a given stone). With regards to recovery, we do indeed accomplish more than scientists could on their own. Battle Mountain is the best example of this in recent years: a new fall that would not have been recovered without amateurs. But, with collectors and dealers finding rocks, scientists get a much smaller cut of the material, with the majority
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
In the US there tends to be an urban rural split in the way we view government. People in urban areas tend to see the government as protecting individuals rights. The government will stop my neighbor from playing loud music at night, it will make that jerk down the street pick up after his dog, it will tow the car that is blocking my garage and it will close the park at night to reduce crime. Whereas people from rural areas are more likely to view the government as taking away their rights. Property rights are under the most government pressure in rural areas the government may prevent people from cutting down their own trees, limit where you can graze your cattle or forbid bid you from building a wind turbine. Each of these perspectives is valid and no amount of debate is likely to changesomeones views. One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. I believe that a free market for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists. So please BLM, use the permitting process to make it easy for commercial hunters to collect meteorites on BLM managed land. Perhaps the terms of the permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or issued. Peter -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of jason utas Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 5:25 AM To: Meteorite-list Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello Jodie, You're nit-picking terminology more than anything else. They may not own the land, but it's under their jurisdiction. A policeman may not own his sidearm, yet you being a citizen, are still not allowed to use his publicly owned property. He has jurisdiction over it. The above analogy is funky because the sidearm serves a purpose for the policeman, whereas the meteorite simply holds scientific and monetary value. But when I see spectacular meteorites like the 300 pound main mass of Glorietta Mountain diced and sold for personal profit, I believe that constitutes misuse of public property. And since we're talking about meteorites that belong to the public, my opinion is a valid one. Why do you think I included the references to the local Occupy the Farm idiots over here in Berkeley? They decided that UC-managed land was as good as theirs, and that they could do what they want with it. That's not how public property works. If it's owned by the federal government and managed by the BLM, the BLM gets to set the rules. You may not like the way that the BLM runs things, but the system was put in place by politicians we, the people, voted into positions of power. In this case, it sounds like many meteorite dealers have a special interest (e.g. meteorite hunting/selling) and care about policies that the BLM is enacting -- policies that the population at large does not care about. If the minority is loud enough, they might change things to the way they want them to be. If they can't manage that, well, this is a democracy. Our government may not own anything at all, but I'm glad that they have the power to manage large areas of land, because corporations and private citizens are not capable of responsibly keeping many areas of land -- and especially areas of natural interest -- safe *or* clean. We know that for a fact. And organizations like the BLM need money to do that. Since the permits mentioned in the BLM regulations are only necessary for those who will profit from exploiting resources on land managed by BLM land (selling meteorites), I see no problem with the regulations. What's a $100(?) permit compared with the sale value of ten pounds of meteorites (4,510 grams) from the American Southwest? Nothing. I'm all for smaller government and less bureaucracy, but all of this libertarian stuff is getting on my nerves. The BLM serves a purpose, and, as best I can tell, you're pissed off because of a few incompetent employees. That's not a good reason to simply forego any oversight on vast tracts of American land that would no doubt be abused immediately without oversight...and are abused, regardless, but to a lesser extent. I've spent more time in the desert than most, and know that much firsthand. If you want to reform the BLM, that's a whole different issue. Regards, Jason On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:17 AM, Jodie Reynolds spacero...@spaceballoon.org wrote: Hi Jason
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I have never sold a single piece I have found on federal land and this is not what it is about for me. I do not see how I am being overly dramatic when our rights are being trampled by people who watch too much television, believe everything they read on the net and are clueless. You have much to learn if you think the government bureaucrats are out to protect you. It is all about careers, power and money for those who push pencils behind a desk. It is rare these days to find a bureaucrat that actually wants to serve his base without alternative motives. A very few regulations are a good thing but not when they are crammed down your throat by an uninformed bureaucrat who has not even vetted the real issues, Adam. - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello Adam, All, You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might* logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects. It shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules versus making an entirely new rule(s). Calling it twisting is just misleading. I address this in my last email, which you apparently replied to without reading. Or saying anything, really. The rest of what you say seems baseless to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are. Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution. As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/ You're being a little too dramatic for my taste. If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for keeping track of *their* meteorites. This all rings too much of the recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land. http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/ Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking. You should read my last email. It really does address the antiquities aspect of things. And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from BLM land, it means that you're making money from finding them. Most such things require permits. It does seem inconvenient to me, so I can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but taking it this far just seemsa bit much. I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite hunter should care about these laws. Apparently the limit is 10 lbs per year, not 25. But how much Franconia do you really want? Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
some moraline. Meteorite dealer is a honorable profession. It is in no way different from let's say a potato-farmer. If that farmer invests his work, time and money in growing his potatoes, and in the end of the year, the outcome is, that he gained no money for living, he will quit and grow something else. Ask the dealers. How often they were thinking, when they saw on the shows and fairs, how great the demand for - huh, cool new word: brummagem (?) - is, observing the prices paid and being aware of the producing costs, how they said to themselves, why the heck am I addicted to meteorites, life could be so much easier!?! And btw. another law, when it comes up to professions, something, which all public skeptics have to concede to the private meteorite sector: Read Article 23, 3 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Back to the BLM-rules. They're somewhat unfortunate. Too complicate and uncertain in practice. A simpler version would have been better. 1 permit per year for the whole state to hunt at a symbolic price (and to get easy online). 50% of the meteorite for the finder, 50% for the state. And all could live happily together, and the doubling of the dry state find prices, I guess they are bearable, as most of them were likewise cheap before. To me anyway that complex is a little bit rustic. Look here in Europe, whether the people have more couth, I don't know. Here are almost no laws; when a meteorite is found, scientists, finders and collectors are in first instance and also in the second: happy, and so far there was still all the time a decent agreement achieved between state/scientist and finder/owner without invoking any laws or courts, where all parties were more than content. Let it be Maribo, Twannberg II, Neuschwanstein I + II, Ramsdorf and so on. And that all, where we have not at all those huge empty areas like you over there, but are extremely densely settled, which, as one might think, should cause a much larger potential of conflicts than if the coyote drops his poo in the lonely desert. Best! Martin PS: Gosh, what a lengthy suada. Am I getting healthy again? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von jason utas Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 06:34 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there are more. They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't find photos online. Not for fear of the government claiming them, but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in the field. Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that kind of information. And now his finds are being touted as examples of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of us Southwest hunters. [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding large meteorites? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?] That said, such a law won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm still not seeing the point of supporting either side. *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance. Seems like a qualitative judgement to me. Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites. But, as a group, our primary interest isn't the advancement of science. That much is very clear. We're all interested in it to different extents, but we're not donating our finds to science beyond what we have to (some folks give a bit more, but it's almost always a fraction of a given stone). With regards to recovery, we do indeed accomplish more than scientists could on their own. Battle Mountain is the best example of this in recent years: a new fall that would not have been recovered without amateurs. But, with collectors and dealers finding rocks, scientists get a much smaller cut of the material, with the majority of it going to sale/into collections (and with no guarantee of the quality of curatorship). No one against the law has yet addressed this topic, which I think may be an aspect of the problem. And no one is arguing that we amateurs don't provide a valuable service by bringing new meteorites to light that would otherwise not (ever?) be found. Nor do the proposed
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it arises. I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. Perhaps. Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds, by and large, but many do not. That said, this does not change the free-market nature of meteorites in the US. If people follow the rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee to hunting on BLM land (and, theoretically, one could hold off on getting a permit until after finding something in order to guarantee no unnecessary loss of fees). The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists. Right, but conjecturing that fewer meteorites will be found with the new regulations seems odd to me. I'd be amazed to hear of anyone on the list planning to hunt less based on the new regulations. Perhaps the terms of the permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or issued. Of course. I'm guessing the ease of getting a permit will be along the lines of a hunting permit, but there's really no way to know that without trying to get one. Since the selling permit wouldn't raise the collection limit or allow industrial hunting equipment, it seems unlikely that they would required EOR-type material. The only likely disadvantage I see is that hunters with a commercial/meteorite vending permit will be more likely to have to pay taxes on their sales...if they weren't already doing so. Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com I have never sold a single piece I have found on federal land and this is not what it is about for me. I do not see how I am being overly dramatic when our rights are being trampled by people who watch too much television, believe everything they read on the net and are clueless. You have much to learn if you think the government bureaucrats are out to protect you. It is all about careers, power and money for those who push pencils behind a desk. It is rare these days to find a bureaucrat that actually wants to serve his base without alternative motives. A very few regulations are a good
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Jason, I will let you have the last word after this. I believe in reality, not conspiracies. The reality is that clueless people are controlling ours and future generations' destinies and freedoms. You will learn this valuable lesson later in life when everything you do is under the control of somebody else. Our founding fathers would be appalled at what is going on these days, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it arises. I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. Perhaps. Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds, by and large, but many do not. That said, this does not change the free-market nature of meteorites in the US. If people follow the rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee to hunting on BLM land (and, theoretically, one could hold off on getting a permit until after finding something in order to guarantee no unnecessary loss of fees). The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists. Right, but conjecturing that fewer meteorites will be found with the new regulations seems odd to me. I'd be amazed to hear of anyone on the list planning to hunt less based on the new regulations. Perhaps the terms of the permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or issued. Of course. I'm guessing the ease of getting a permit will be along the lines of a hunting permit, but there's really no way to know that without trying to get one. Since the selling permit wouldn't raise the collection limit or allow industrial hunting equipment, it seems unlikely that they would required EOR-type material. The only likely disadvantage I see is that hunters with a commercial/meteorite vending permit will be more likely to have to pay taxes on their sales...if they weren't already doing so. Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
But Jason, can't you see the comedy, the incredible funniness? and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land That's the point! Nobody of human reason, working in administration or elsewhere, would ever get the idea, that something so far-fetched and so exotic, that the vast majority of people has no clue, that that at all exists, would need a legal regulation. It's an exceptional fun! Much better than e.g. here in EU, where communities in the plains with no hill higher than 20 feet have to implement extensive regulations for the erection and operation of teleferics and ski-lifts. Cause these meteorite laws are selfmade and homegrown, And often, hihihi, in countries, which have only one single meteorite or not more than 5 in 1000 years! It seems, that those clerks involved in inventing such laws are either satirists or maybe somewhat under-worked. And if, where the urge is definitely higher, they would introduce - of course in the same honorable intention - the duty by law, that we have to wear from now on outside helmets with arrester, I guess in public and media they would be ridiculed. Nevertheless in Germany it happens roughly 150 times more often, that a person is killed by lightning stroke, than a meteorite is found. (And in many countries with existing meteorite laws, the ratio is similar). That's the beef, when we are talking about meteorites and laws, Don't forget that! And normally, any meteorite law would be similarly seriously discussed, like the meteorite bill in England's House of Lords once. Bruharhar, you remember Thuathe? Lesotho has also a meteorite law! No worries, hunting, owning, collecting, exporting that all is allowed and needs no permits, But... But.. ihihih if you bend over to pick up a meteorite, You need before a written testimony of an environmental compatibility assessment. So, I assume, in most countries with meteorite laws, the officers will react indignantly, if you molest them with your meteoritical concerns and they will tell you: get out of my office with your piffling stones, we have more important things to care for!! Greetings from Kafka. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von jason utas Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 16:07 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 12/3/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Jason, I will let you have the last word after this. I believe in reality, not conspiracies. The reality is that clueless people are controlling ours and future generations' destinies and freedoms. You will learn this valuable lesson later in life when everything you do is under the control of somebody else. Our founding fathers would be appalled at what is going on these days, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it arises. I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. Perhaps. Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds, by and large, but many do not. That said, this does not change the free-market nature of meteorites in the US. If people follow the rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
When does this new policy go into effect? On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 7:53 PM, GREG LINDH gee...@msn.com wrote: Adam, This is an example of government bureaucracy doing what it does best. This is just the beginning. I'm not a hunter, but I'm affected because I buy from those of you who do the actual hunting. People here on The List *feel* this up close and personal, because they're directly affected. This kind of thing goes on all the time throughout our increasingly over regulated society. Remember, the bigger the government the smaller the citizen. The thing is, once the genie is out of the bottle, it's very hard, maybe impossible to put him back in. That's the nature of an over reaching government. Greg L. Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:00:05 -0800 From: raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy (Thar she blows!)
Yep, were hard times then, so they were for meteorite hunters. Here Mike you see Tashtego, Starbuck, Captain Ahab and Ishmael hunting the White meteorite. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1271/995914327_613befae01.jpg Watch out, what will happen! Here, Rob L. found that horrible testimony... be aware, that is really nothing for children-eyes: http://kuerzer.de/ahabmassacre The beast has bitten off Ahab's feet!! Back to legality.. The ownership can lead also to problematic juristic consequences. Liability. With Tunguska we had luck, arriving just a few hours later or earlier... and that was a relatively small impact, like it can happen all the time. Follow me... what would be the consequence, if something like Vredefort will happen today? South Africa would be pretty much swept from the map. Legally the Republic of South Africa is the owner of the impactor. Does the Republic have then to pay for the devastations it made? So not only physically, but also economically and for all times the Rep. of South Africa would be pulverized. Less dramatic: A Peekskill car in Western Australia - do I get a new car from the state? A Lorton house in Denmark, who pays the repair of the roof? My dead Llama on BML land, sniff...? Questions. Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Mike Your description on the acquisition of the Americas is somewhat skewed. A very large number of Native Americans traveled from the middle East via the Baring strait, just shortly before the Rednecks arrived . Most of the Western United States was taken from the natives (ie. Zuni and Hopi) by these marauding invaders. Regardless, over one and a half million men and women have fallen in two world wars to give me and the native americans the right to wave our American Flag. Not a Swastika or Rising Sun flag. Rant on!! And have a Blessed Day! In the USA! Dennis Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 11:18:26 -0500 From: meteoritem...@gmail.com To: raremeteori...@yahoo.com CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 12/3/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Jason, I will let you have the last word after this. I believe in reality, not conspiracies. The reality is that clueless people are controlling ours and future generations' destinies and freedoms. You will learn this valuable lesson later in life when everything you do is under the control of somebody else. Our founding fathers would be appalled at what is going on these days, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
There is a pervasive (and ugly) growing undercurrent now manifest in government that profit itself is the problem. Yet government plows ahead What is the BLM intent??? There seems to be no logical reason to impose these new regs other than that they can. And as with any well intentioned batch of regulators, the unintended consequences are missed, once again. Richard M - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Adam...with all due respect... You can't substantiate a single thing you say, but insist that I'm the gullible one. I just told you how a system like that might operate based off of logic and the structure of bureaucracies like the ones I have to work with/against every day here at a huge public school. This isn't rubbish someone told me. It's the nature of the beast when misguided attempts at efficiency are often the name of the game. Sinister motives almost never come into play. Such decisions are often the work of people who have worked within the bureaucracy for twenty years, barely know how to use their computer, and understand that the only way they'll be able to regulate the increasing commercialization of meteorites found on public land isn't by proposing what might be seen as a 'radical' new law, but rather by amending an existing one. And unless you can offer some theory as to why or how a politician might benefit from these new rules, it's really weird to insist upon it. You're making huge negative generalizations -- and making it sound like something of a conspiracy theory -- with nothing but personal bias to back it up. Seems to me that you'd find any regulation not to your liking crammed down your throat. We live in a democracy, though. It happens. I'm paying taxes for plenty of things I think are worthless, many of which I voted against. C'est la vie. Re: Peter One thing about the BLM regulations (not laws) is the prohibition on the sales of meteorites found on BLM lands. That prohibition will just create a black market for these meteorites that will keep them out of the hands of science. Doubt it. The only meteorites from BLM land that are commonly sold are Franconia, Gold Basin, etc. It's the odd other meteorite that makes its way to the market. New falls are really what's at risk here -- and possibly finds that weigh more than 10 lbs. For most dealers, though, I can't see this as being an issue. Since most stones are already being sold privately, it doesn't matter. If worst came to worst, a finder could claim that they purchased or were given a given stone in the field, and they would no longer be subject to the BLM regulations that apply to finders. In short, there's no need for the development of a black market, even if people wish to be unscrupulous. I think these new laws are silly, but that's about it. I have the feeling that others are using such strong language because they do fear later amendments that aren't so easy to get around, but...I'll fight that battle if and/or when it arises. I believe that a “free market” for meteorites encourages people to hunt for meteorites. Perhaps. Most hunters in the Southwest seem to hold onto their finds, by and large, but many do not. That said, this does not change the free-market nature of meteorites in the US. If people follow the rules, it will simply attach a nominal fee to hunting on BLM land (and, theoretically, one could hold off on getting a permit until after finding something in order to guarantee no unnecessary loss of fees). The more people hunting the more meteorites found. The more meteorites found the more meteorites that can be studied by scientists. Right, but conjecturing that fewer meteorites will be found with the new regulations seems odd to me. I'd be amazed to hear of anyone on the list planning to hunt less based on the new regulations. Perhaps the terms of the permit could be something along the lines of a $100 onetime fee that would allow the hunter to hunt on BLM managed land. If the permits require environmental impact statements and/or large fees none will be sought or issued. Of course. I'm guessing the ease of getting a permit will be along the lines of a hunting permit, but there's really no way to know that without trying to get one. Since the selling permit wouldn't raise the collection limit or allow industrial hunting equipment, it seems unlikely that they would required EOR-type material. The only likely disadvantage I see is that hunters with a commercial/meteorite vending permit will be more likely to have to pay taxes on their sales...if they weren't already doing so. Jason From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
This Meteorite List is turning into a Politics List! lol I can understand both sides of the debate, and as a small time private hunter, sure I would like for the BLM to explicitly grant me broad, unrestricted permission to hunt meteorites to my heart's content on public land. But is that likely to happen? Of course not. As it stands, I don't feel particularly hindered by the current guidelines. My concern is that mounting an aggressive campaign to elicit a revision in these guidelines could backfire. The easiest answer for a bureaucrat to give, when pressed for a response, is No. I'm happy to support any effort to document the accomplishments and contributions to meteoritical science by private hunters. I just hope that it is handled in a way that doesn't provoke an outright hunting ban by the Feds next year. Doug Ross d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Doug and Numerous Listers, I apologize for my little Indian rant earlier. It's obvious that this issue is not only controversial, but it also touches upon issues of politics and culture. There is a lot at stake here, and the issue merits attention. But, we must be smart about it. Tempers and personal interests aside, I think any increased regulation that stifles meteorite recovery is going to hurt everyone involved - hunters, dealers, trader/collectors, and scientists. Make no mistake, nobody will emerge unscathed if nothing is done to correct this course the BLM has taken. Dr. Gessler had the most cogent advice in this entire discussion. Please, let us all heed it : Get something intelligent and persuasive down on paper. Put some respected and authoritative names behind it and publish it in MAPS or any other journal/venue where it will be considered with the seriousness that it demands Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - . On 12/3/12, Doug Ross d...@dougross.net wrote: This Meteorite List is turning into a Politics List! lol I can understand both sides of the debate, and as a small time private hunter, sure I would like for the BLM to explicitly grant me broad, unrestricted permission to hunt meteorites to my heart's content on public land. But is that likely to happen? Of course not. As it stands, I don't feel particularly hindered by the current guidelines. My concern is that mounting an aggressive campaign to elicit a revision in these guidelines could backfire. The easiest answer for a bureaucrat to give, when pressed for a response, is No. I'm happy to support any effort to document the accomplishments and contributions to meteoritical science by private hunters. I just hope that it is handled in a way that doesn't provoke an outright hunting ban by the Feds next year. Doug Ross d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Michael and all, I have opinions about these things and in the next METEORITE MARKET TRENDS in the January issue of METEORITE TIMES I will address them. In the mean time, folks, the louder we yell about this the more likely we are to create resistance to impacting this situation positively. Pissing and moaning and pointing fingers seems to be very popular Among the American public in general and on this list in particular, but I Believe that continuing on with this issue in this forum has real potential To cripple any diplomatic steps to impact this situation that might possibly be achieved. Best to all, Michael On 12/3/12 8:18 AM, Met. Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Michael, You're saying shut up or it might get worse? I think the discussion is more important than the outcome. Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:48:45 -0800 From: mlbl...@cox.net To: meteoritem...@gmail.com; raremeteori...@yahoo.com CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hi Michael and all, I have opinions about these things and in the next METEORITE MARKET TRENDS in the January issue of METEORITE TIMES I will address them. In the mean time, folks, the louder we yell about this the more likely we are to create resistance to impacting this situation positively. Pissing and moaning and pointing fingers seems to be very popular Among the American public in general and on this list in particular, but I Believe that continuing on with this issue in this forum has real potential To cripple any diplomatic steps to impact this situation that might possibly be achieved. Best to all, Michael On 12/3/12 8:18 AM, Met. Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Every inch of BLM land and all of America was stolen from native American Indians - the true owners of this land. Not the government, not some flag-waving redneck whose ancestors butchered, lied, and raped their way into ownership of it. Gloss over it with history books all you want, but this belly-aching about our land being usurped by the government sounds awfully familiar to someone with Indian ancestry. BLM stole your land? Here's some smallpox-infected blankets to wipe your tears with. I don't like these new BLM regulations either. I think it's a power-grab. I think if it is enforced strictly, it will hurt science and all meteorite recovery. But get off this rigtheous nonsense about the land belonging to the people - it's nonsense. We own it because we stole it by force. How is that any different than what the BLM is trying to do now? Feel violated? Imagine. Ask an Indian about this issue, if you can find one. Best regards and happy hunting, MikeG __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Here 'tis http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2002M%26PSB..375S - Original Message - From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
What a messwe're living during the transformation of elected representative government by the people to a appointed governing that is closer to what our founders escaped than the freedom we grew up with. How is it that laws can be made by decree and regulation? (The rhetorical question is simply answered...the encroachment of seemingly good intentions designed to protect us from ourselves will eventually ruin our freedom entirely.) What a mess. Let's consider the other side of the coin: since we know that meteorites belong to the landowners upon which they fall, we should all own what we find since we own the public land, not a government. And thus by extension, (through any parallel of mining law, forestry, natural resource extraction etc.) this new decree of regulating a single aspect of what is found and developed on public land is an unequitable and selective application. What a mess The largest question is private property rights: Even with the 10lb/year limit imposed by the this BLM decree, it is unacceptable that a government entity has any jurisdiction over any subsequent exchange, monetary or otherwise. Let's keep a sharp eye on it. HUGE thanks to Nick for taking the initiative. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com To: meteorite central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I have been warning for years that making meteorites into treasure for TV or media purposes would lead to the meteorite hunting downfall. History is repeating itself. It happened with relic hunters, coin-shooters and fossil finders because they became known as treasure hunters due to the popular press. A few got there 15-minutes of fame and everybody else paid for it! Treasure hunting as a wholesome hobby that could have been enjoyed by generations of family members has never recovered. It is now completely off-limits on BLM land and so too will be meteorite hunting now that they are antiques. Everything on Earth could be considered an antique using Schmitt's reasoning. Just wait until the next version of their meteorite recovery policy. And to think a poorly written paper by a Canadian and some fleeting moments of fame for a few could influence American law. Happy Hunting, Adm - Original Message - From: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net To: Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com; meteorite central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy What a messwe're living during the transformation of elected representative government by the people to a appointed governing that is closer to what our founders escaped than the freedom we grew up with. How is it that laws can be made by decree and regulation? (The rhetorical question is simply answered...the encroachment of seemingly good intentions designed to protect us from ourselves will eventually ruin our freedom entirely.) What a mess. Let's consider the other side of the coin: since we know that meteorites belong to the landowners upon which they fall, we should all own what we find since we own the public land, not a government. And thus by extension, (through any parallel of mining law, forestry, natural resource extraction etc.) this new decree of regulating a single aspect of what is found and developed on public land is an unequitable and selective application. What a mess The largest question is private property rights: Even with the 10lb/year limit imposed by the this BLM decree, it is unacceptable that a government entity has any jurisdiction over any subsequent exchange, monetary or otherwise. Let's keep a sharp eye on it. HUGE thanks to Nick for taking the initiative. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com To: meteorite central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
My two cents on part of this topic: I think part of the problem we're having is that there is not enough clout or lobby for our hobby/industry. The BLM can easily ignore various individual emails/demands but it's harder to ignore a petition or lobby of several hundred people together, especially if they have media attention. If others are interested, I think we should start up a petition at charge . org or one of the other petition websites. Gather enough signatures/attention and soon others can't afford to ignore you. Anyone interested in the wording or writing of the petition should email me privately and we can see if we can get something together. Sincerely, Yinan On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com wrote: You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
From my perspective, I think we ought not to go off half-cocked. Apparently, that is what the BLM has done, and it has gotten no one anywhere. But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3: Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they have acceded to the land. A meteorite resting on the surface is, arguably, owned by the finder taking possession of it, subject to trespass issues. Read this carefully! I think it would be worthwhile to first do a profile on Schmitt. Solicitors present arguments and opinions, they do not conduct scientific and sociological investigations of the subject. Perhaps we need a societal and cultural perspective on the issue? Who were his 20 informants? As an anthropologist, his investigation falls way short of unbiased research. What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion to US Law? Have we learned nothing in ten years? Since then the public has become better informed, the public has made major contributions, and the scientific community has expanded to include collectors, educators and dealers... Perhaps it's time for another scholarly article based upon scientific evidence to be submitted to the Meteoritics and Planetary Science? One that contains statistics on how many meteorites are recovered by each section of the community, the costs of hunting, sales and trades among scientific organizations, etc. Maybe we should take time to document our experiences with the BLM and meet at Tucson to draft a response? Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] on behalf of Yinan Wang [veom...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 1:49 PM To: Jim Strope Cc: meteorite central Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy My two cents on part of this topic: I think part of the problem we're having is that there is not enough clout or lobby for our hobby/industry. The BLM can easily ignore various individual emails/demands but it's harder to ignore a petition or lobby of several hundred people together, especially if they have media attention. If others are interested, I think we should start up a petition at charge . org or one of the other petition websites. Gather enough signatures/attention and soon others can't afford to ignore you. Anyone interested in the wording or writing of the petition should email me privately and we can see if we can get something together. Sincerely, Yinan On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com wrote: You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi there Nick, But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3: Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they have acceded to the land. An astonishing statement. As much as I investigated laws, in all the years I was able to find so far only 3 (three) European laws, explicitly giving meteorites in their wordings. Denmark (where the museum has to decide, whether it is a Dannekrae - in that case the finder gets a reward (in practice the museum is buying the stone from the finder). Else he can keep it. And the question of the landowner is not mentioned.) Poland (came later than Schmidt. No ownership questions. Meteorites (national and international) ones need an export permit). Slovakia (finder has to announce it to the local environment agency and gets a title as finder. If he then doesn't hear for (would have to look up again) more than 3 months nothing again from that office, he is the owner. Else he gets a reward of 10% of the market value). As stated here so often, also the piece of information Schmitt gave about Switzerland and New Zealand is incorrect, and the piece of information about India doubtful (if you read the Indian constitution still in place and certainly over-ruling administrative orders from the colonial times). All in all I came to the conclusion, that Schmitt hasn't read most of the laws (if he gives the §§) at all, neither he investigated the reports, he received from third parties (obviously legal laypeople), whether they are wrong or true. Meteorites are a too rare and exotic thing, that they would enter written law in Western Europe countries. The question mainly is, what for a res a meteorite is legally, in which drawers you can sort them, the individual laws of each country allow. If I reckon meteorites among narcotics or to explosives, then certainly there are certain restrictions. Nothing else makes Schmitt. Btw. his far-fetched interpretation of the UN-convention of 1970, if you use exactly the same method of generous ellipsis in quoting, like Schmitt did, You'll find, that e.g. bananas are protected moveable cultural heritage. Additional, thanks god, in all countries here in Western Europe in case a court has to decide, what for an object a meteorite is in meaning of the national law, and not Mr.Schmitt. Well, if I as a complete and brute layman am able to a) find the individual laws and b) to read and to understand them, then I dare to say, that Schmitt's work is bs. (pardon me). What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion Not Schmitt, but google is the enemy. Unfortunately the first hits delivered for a query for laws and meteorites lead directly to Schmitt's bad paper. (Even more unfortunately, that it was published (and even more and more unfortunately not peer-reviewed) in the official organ of the meteoritical society, MAPS.) So whenever a journalist seeks a story around a new fall, he will read Schmitt's paper. So unwantedly Schmitt is the reason, that some of my neighbours could look at me like a member of a drug or weapon dealers cartel, because some lousy clowns in NYT or BBC, as it happened, jumped from Schmitt's stuff to the conclusions necessary to make a story, where no story is. Perhaps it's time for another scholarly article.. Good idea, but a scientist or even better a meteoricist has to write that. Hunters, dealers and collectors are not regarded to be part of the academic world, their opinion therefore is not interesting and their expertise doubtful. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 21:01 An: Yinan Wang; Jim Strope Cc: meteorite central Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Wichtigkeit: Hoch From my perspective, I think we ought not to go off half-cocked. Apparently, that is what the BLM has done, and it has gotten no one anywhere. But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3: Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they have acceded to the land. A meteorite resting on the surface is, arguably, owned by the finder taking possession of it, subject to trespass issues. Read this carefully! I think it would be worthwhile to first do a profile on Schmitt. Solicitors present arguments and opinions, they do not conduct scientific and sociological investigations of the subject. Perhaps we need a societal and cultural perspective on the issue? Who were his 20 informants? As an anthropologist, his investigation falls way short of unbiased research. What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion to US Law? Have we learned nothing in ten years? Since then the public has become better informed, the public
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy (Swaziland)
Btw. by far the best of the coolest meteorite laws I found in Swaziland! Wait it's only a little bit complicate, but let me give you a summary: - Collecting of meteorites in National Parks is forbidden. - The removing and exportation of a meteorite needs the permission of the National Trust Committee. -Remains the National Trust Committee inactive, then you can address the Deputy Prime minister for issuing the permit. - Refuses the National Trust Committee the permit, then the Deputy Prime Minister is allowed to issue the permit. - Refuses the Deputy Prime Minister the permit, then the National Committee is allowed to give the permit and to commend the Deputy Prime Minister to issue it. - Refuses the Deputy Prime Minister and the National Trust Committee as well the permit, then you can object. - The Deputy Prime Minister needs for that maneuver the approval of the Ngwenyama - The Deputy Prime Minister is entitled to purchase the meteorite, if he wants. (Swaziland has 1 meteorite). ;-) Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Adam, You wouldn't have done wrong neither, if you would have told a price. When it is about ownership, and you are the owner, and living in a free and democratic state of law, it's not the business of the state (at best only if you sell it, regarding taxes). There are endless things, objects, estates, which have a monetary high value. However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. That is a set phrase. Replace meteorites by bananas. A new regulation needs a justification. That one is a weak one, but better than to say, well we wanted to avoid the impression, that we're twirling our thumbs all the day forour salaries. (That increased public interest was btw. the goal by the U.S. representative in the U.N. working group on meteorites.) Courts? Which one, that - can't recall it, that case of 1906, where a meteorite was subdued under the antiquities act? And Lorton. And one case of the 40s. Right? 3 court decisions in hundred years within a people of 300 millions. What an urge, to bring up a new law, - a happy people, which has no other problems... Btw. That really some protagonists reckon meteorites among culture is the major problem. (uh just read a while ago on web, that Botswana claims to have their cultural heritage back, the biggest lunar Kalahai 009 and asked the university muenster for it). I fear, that can happen only, because such people haven't learned, what culture is. Well, I have no idea about your legal system, whether precedents are binding for judges. In my country it's not so, a court decides case by case. So here it would be easy to challenge, whether a meteorite is an antiquity. Well, and the question, whether a fallen meteorite is genuine part of the land. (in the Neuschwanstein case, the court decided: no.) S, if it was established long ago in your country, that meteorites are part of the land, not falling under the exception to be a rock, to be allowed to be collected from public land and possessed by the finder without permission, then anyway every meteorite found on public land before was already illegally possessed (until lapse of time comes in effect). Now you're allowed only to pick them up for personal use, but allowed, an US-lunar rock in the flush reservoir to reduce water consumption, for the flower bed, doorstop... And if it's too large, bad luck, you have to let it rot there, wher you found it. Whether there is any public interest in such stone not to be found in future, ...well, I'm not an expert. It's of course a big pity, when I think, how long the US-hunters have to hunt and to work, until they finally find something better than an old chondrite. An Eucrite, or even such an exciting sensation like the CM1. - In future I guess, you won't have such finds anymore. Economically it never was rewarding to hunt non-falls in the U.S., so I doubt, that the known hunter heroes will carry on, if the possibility is taken away, that at least a part of their expenses can be recovered with one or two good finds within several years. Look, we witnessed, how and why Australia disappeared from the meteoritic globe. Tragically not understandably. But in Australia are living happy people too! Why.., because - how many people are interested in meteorites in that whole wide World? A couple of few thousands. So the world will keep spinning on. Anyway, How many % of the surface of the U.S. are BLM land? Isn't there private land enough left on your huge continent to hunt on and to hope the next fresh fall will land on? Maybe now, where capitalism is wiped out in BLM meteoritics it could be a nice additional field for Dr.Harvey et al. - not so exotic, but also not so expensive like Antarctica. And due to the lack of personnel (and experience in hot deserts), Maybe they will say: I hired a contract hunter! SkolGood Night America! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 23:40 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I may consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus sales tax, in most States of the USA! A meteorite should not be considered an artifact unless it is found in a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+ never used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find a rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it away even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per year per person. As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine for minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining. Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM. Fred Hall I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Fred, Artifact would imply that your legislative authorities do believe in the existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate some more modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library of Congress, that this assumption has turned out to be unlikely. Uh coffee was perhaps a bad example - the prices for gasoline, energy, housing, meat will bring you immediately back! Can I sign too as non-citizen? Good night, (have to take my pills, was too talkative...) Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: h...@meteorhall.com [mailto:h...@meteorhall.com] Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 00:32 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I may consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus sales tax, in most States of the USA! A meteorite should not be considered an artifact unless it is found in a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+ never used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find a rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it away even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per year per person. As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine for minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining. Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM. Fred Hall __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I think if we work together we can make some changes: I just wrote to the editor of MAPS suggesting that it was time for a rejoinder to Schmitt's article. I also suggested that I will put my 18 students on the task of data-mining the Meteoritical Data Base for information on who found what, who analyzed what, what institutions received what, etc., to get some quantitative information on the contribution of all of us to advancing the science of meteoritics. Having a background in Anthropology, I think I can prepare a more realistic view of what is going on than Schmitt. Also, having practiced archaeology professionally, I think I may be in a good position to argue that meteorites have no relation to Antiquities or even fossils. I think we need to pull together as much validly collected information on the recovery and trade in meteorites, not only by hunters, but by institutions, both historically and at present. I think the drafters of the BLM legislation do not see the realities of the public's interest in meteorites and their contribution to the community at large. A well-written questionnaire sent out to all interested parties might also serve us well. But let's spend the time to design one well before we circulate it. We also need not just to express our opposition to their legislation, but to propose something to replace it with. I am willing to pull together as much information as I can, in collaboration and with the help of others on this list, and also begin to consult (in a less biased manner than Schmitt) with professionals, amateurs and dealers. I have to teach and deal with other matters, so I cannot digest all your postings at one sitting. I will, with some encouragement, try to pull much of this together and post it on the Web. I will start to do some work on this beginning in January and perhaps by the time many of us get together in Tucson, we can sit together and do some planning. Later we can take our work to the MAPS to see if they concur. Nick __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Martin Wrote: (uh just read a while ago on web, that Botswana claims to have their cultural heritage back, the biggest lunar Kalahai 009 and asked the university muenster for it). Good, maybe they can provide us with an accurate weight and dimensions instead of rounding it off and hiding it from public view. This stone was miss-managed from the beginning causing many to ask if it is even a meteorite, a hoax or stolen. It would be interesting to hear who the anonymous finder is and the true circumstances of the find? Interesting, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Dear Nicholas, Please allow me to whole heartedly congratulate you on channeling Your energy in a manor that is most likely to produce a positive outcome! As the Brits would say, Brilliant! Michael On 12/2/12 7:08 AM, Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu wrote: Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/n ational_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Perhaps we should all stop collecting selling meteorites. Also, stop giving to, selling or trading with institutions. All of these things bring attention to meteorites and the fact They are collected and valued by a very small few. Michael On 12/2/12 2:40 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
If you look at all the regulatory horrors that have been heaped on us over the last 40 years in every aspect of our lives, this seems incidental. The last stand, our real estate, has been stripped of it's value erasing generations of work. It isn't surprising that meteorites are being eyeballed. The media hype is an ongoing mistake. Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 18:07:56 -0800 From: mlbl...@cox.net To: raremeteori...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Perhaps we should all stop collecting selling meteorites. Also, stop giving to, selling or trading with institutions. All of these things bring attention to meteorites and the fact They are collected and valued by a very small few. Michael On 12/2/12 2:40 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Perhaps we are all making a gross assumption: that BLM writers-of-regs possess an interest in meteoritic science, antiqities, or whatever else is cited. Who, what, how etc. is behind the curtain? - Original Message - From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Perhaps we should all stop collecting selling meteorites. Also, stop giving to, selling or trading with institutions. All of these things bring attention to meteorites and the fact They are collected and valued by a very small few. Michael On 12/2/12 2:40 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Lots more recent posts on this topic still to read, above in my inbox; meanwhile I'll reitereate my concern: regulatory restictions on collecting whatever one can carry (how fortunate that Mike recovered the 300lb Glorieta already... I digress) ...is small potatoes compared to the alarming precedent set with unelected appointed commisions dictating what can subsequently be done with private property. - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Nick I'm with you, I think if we can get the FACTS out together we can make a change. All the finger pointing is pointless to point of making things worse. Wow a lot of points there. Most all activity is in some way regulated on fed land and we were lucky enough to skirt regulation so long so I agree we need to try to mold the new regulations to work for us. So what ever you need count me in. In the mean time you can find me out there just rock hounding. Bryan Couch Wildomar Ca Dare to fail On Dec 2, 2012, at 4:21 PM, Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu wrote: I think if we work together we can make some changes: I just wrote to the editor of MAPS suggesting that it was time for a rejoinder to Schmitt's article. I also suggested that I will put my 18 students on the task of data-mining the Meteoritical Data Base for information on who found what, who analyzed what, what institutions received what, etc., to get some quantitative information on the contribution of all of us to advancing the science of meteoritics. Having a background in Anthropology, I think I can prepare a more realistic view of what is going on than Schmitt. Also, having practiced archaeology professionally, I think I may be in a good position to argue that meteorites have no relation to Antiquities or even fossils. I think we need to pull together as much validly collected information on the recovery and trade in meteorites, not only by hunters, but by institutions, both historically and at present. I think the drafters of the BLM legislation do not see the realities of the public's interest in meteorites and their contribution to the community at large. A well-written questionnaire sent out to all interested parties might also serve us well. But let's spend the time to design one well before we circulate it. We also need not just to express our opposition to their legislation, but to propose something to replace it with. I am willing to pull together as much information as I can, in collaboration and with the help of others on this list, and also begin to consult (in a less biased manner than Schmitt) with professionals, amateurs and dealers. I have to teach and deal with other matters, so I cannot digest all your postings at one sitting. I will, with some encouragement, try to pull much of this together and post it on the Web. I will start to do some work on this beginning in January and perhaps by the time many of us get together in Tucson, we can sit together and do some planning. Later we can take our work to the MAPS to see if they concur. Nick __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Wake up and smell what you are stepping in, Michael! I think we are nearly through collecting meteorites, at least on public land. Remember, I saw my last hobby, Treasure Hunting, destroyed a few bad apples in the very same manner decades ago. I remember the good old days when you could swing a metal detector around without being treated like a common criminal. Sure, nothing attracts the federal governments attention like the words treasure and big bucks splashed all of over their television screens. Throw in the cash register and add the sound effect Ka-chinnggg and you have a winning combination for attracting the feds. They claim that is why they felt it necessary to clarify (rewrite) the laws in the Meteorite Recovery Act 2012. Have you even read it? Due to the actions of a few, I will never again have the opportunity to cut a 10 pound plus meteorite found on public land. I fondly remember reactivating the Judge (a 24 inch Highlands Park diamond saw) and cutting the 26 pounder found by the Count here in Nevada. I might as well mothball the Judge or sell it to a lapidary farm since anything over 10 pounds has to be left in the field considering 89% of the land here in Nevada is under federal control Something got the BLM's attention What else could it be other than the media? Why else would the give %@#*? Adam From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Perhaps we should all stop collecting selling meteorites. Also, stop giving to, selling or trading with institutions. All of these things bring attention to meteorites and the fact They are collected and valued by a very small few. Michael On 12/2/12 2:40 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Adam, This is an example of government bureaucracy doing what it does best. This is just the beginning. I'm not a hunter, but I'm affected because I buy from those of you who do the actual hunting. People here on The List *feel* this up close and personal, because they're directly affected. This kind of thing goes on all the time throughout our increasingly over regulated society. Remember, the bigger the government the smaller the citizen. The thing is, once the genie is out of the bottle, it's very hard, maybe impossible to put him back in. That's the nature of an over reaching government. Greg L. Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:00:05 -0800 From: raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
when they turn up (e.g. Old Woman). SoI'm not seeing the difference between then and now -- unless you sell your finds and don't like the idea of getting/renewing a permit every year. Even though, if you fall into that category, you're taking meteorites that legally belong the the BLM off of public land and selling them for your own profit. If it's a counter-argument the dealer population wishes to put forth, then fine. But they should at least call it what it is. Meteorite dealers make money by trading in a scientifically valuable commodity, and protecting their right to sell meteorites found on public land in the US is of course high on their list of interests. It's a special interest. -- Other things - -- Martin - please stop using Australia as an example. We've gone over this: Primarily: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dNthXb8AJ5cJ:six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2011-January/072151.html+cd=1hl=enct=clnkgl=us And (scroll to my message): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:UaGbL6qt2gsJ:six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2010-December/072063.html+cd=1hl=enct=clnkgl=us -- Adam - ambiguously bringing up stones like Kalahari 009 as examples of mismanagement (private or public mis-management?) is odd. Since the stone was found by a private party, if anything, it shows that individual people aren't likely to be responsible curators of meteorites. Having personally seen some prime examples of personal *and* institutional mistreatment of meteorites, pointing out individual examples doesn't accomplish much more than pointing fingers. I personally don't see why it's a horrible fact that Kalahari 009 wasn't studied as much as it could have been *when it was found.* We haven't lost any information or scientific capability. Just time. Science isn't running out of time. Conversely, the meteorite could have been cut up and sold, with only a small portion of it going to science. Which outcome is better is entirely a matter of opinion. -- Richard brought up the 300 lb Glorietta Mountain siderite as an example of a wonderful meteorite that was brought to light by the private sector. I believe it is a perfect example of both sides of the issue. A large (historic?) meteorite of significant size was found on public land. It probably would never have been found without private sector effort. It was then cut (almost entirely) and sold for profit. The largest known mass of a large American meteorite that theoretically belonged to the American public and probably should have gone to a museum, was instead...well, it's gone. I hope you enjoy the photos. The finder wasn't wrong to do that -- it was entirely his prerogative. He owned it. But I believe that these new laws may be partly intended to keep such things from happening. Whether you see that as good or bad depends on your values, but I'd like to share my own. Would that meteorite ever have been found without the private sector? None of us can say, but it does seem unlikely that it would have happened in the near future. But we do know one thing for sure -- that monolithic meteorite is *gone,* and you can be certain that it's not coming back. Ultimately, the specimen was a source of income for a meteorite hunter, and the sum of what we have to show for it now is a bunch of slices scattered around the world -- that I can't tell apart from Seymchan. -- Most of the large American meteorites discovered on public and private land in the past few decades (that have surfaced) have been cut and no longer exist. They were cut for profit. There's a very long list. I like to think that there's a reason we really appreciate the Smithsonian and AMNH to see large rocks. We enjoy seeing photo albums from various museums' collections on Facebook. Big rocks from outer space are great for outreach and education. And they're intact, so if anyone ever wants to do research on them in any way, shape, or form in the future, they're available for that. We're the reason that so few of these rocks are being preserved, despite the fact that we admire them. Isn't it odd? The only reason that I feel I might oppose these new regulations now is because there's the chance that if they're passed, they *could* be made more stringent in the future. However, since the current wording doesn't affect me, I don't mind it. All of this adamant nay-saying seems a bit much. Jason From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Hi Fred, Artifact would imply that your legislative authorities do believe in the existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate some more modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library of Congress
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there are more. They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't find photos online. Not for fear of the government claiming them, but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in the field. Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that kind of information. And now his finds are being touted as examples of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of us Southwest hunters. [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding large meteorites? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?] That said, such a law won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm still not seeing the point of supporting either side. *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance. Seems like a qualitative judgement to me. Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites. But, as a group, our primary interest isn't the advancement of science. That much is very clear. We're all interested in it to different extents, but we're not donating our finds to science beyond what we have to (some folks give a bit more, but it's almost always a fraction of a given stone). With regards to recovery, we do indeed accomplish more than scientists could on their own. Battle Mountain is the best example of this in recent years: a new fall that would not have been recovered without amateurs. But, with collectors and dealers finding rocks, scientists get a much smaller cut of the material, with the majority of it going to sale/into collections (and with no guarantee of the quality of curatorship). No one against the law has yet addressed this topic, which I think may be an aspect of the problem. And no one is arguing that we amateurs don't provide a valuable service by bringing new meteorites to light that would otherwise not (ever?) be found. Nor do the proposed regulations inhibit the right or ability of most hunters to continue to do what they've been doing. You guys need to look at the regulations and what they're actually going to change. Permits will theoretically be required for selling meteorites found on BLM land and uncommonly large finds that aren't usually reported anyway are theoretically going to have to be turned in to the government. -- The Antiquities Act -- yes, it seems a little odd to piggy-back meteorites on an antiquity law that was not intended to include meteorites. On the other hand, it's probably easier to pass regulations on newly considered items by folding them into existing regulatory categories. Instead of a new BLM department for regulating meteorites, the government officials who went after artifacts can now address both groups of items (meteorites + artifacts). This doesn't seem like such an insane idea to me. Good? I don't know. Since the new regulations don't affect me, I don't particularly care. Were these new aspects of the law intended under the original legislation? Nope. But it seems that the *intent* of the people changing the law is to restrict the private for-profit exploitation of meteorites found on public land. So, they are passing the laws that they intend to pass, which aren't the laws that someone wanted back in 1906. Of course, back in 1906, we didn't know that meteorites could be collected on public land and sold for considerable profit, so the fact that there wasn't a law then (and *perhaps* should be one now) is...kind of logical. Seems a little less crazy now, doesn't it? All that's left
