Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Greg Hupe via Meteorite-list]

When will the Insanity end? Wake up, Give it a Break and Move on with 
Realty...
As in the song... Deal with your Monsters... or they will deal with 
You..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHkozMIXZ8w

Best Regards,
Greg


Greg Hupe
The Hupe Collection
gmh...@centurylink.net
www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog & Reference Site)
www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site)
NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest & eBay)
http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault
IMCA 3163

Click here for my current eBay auctions:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault

__

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Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list]

Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are 
> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been 
> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men. 
> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs and 
> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect 
> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of 
> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American Lunar, 
> they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
> To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
> Hi Adam,
>
> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or whatever. 
> really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual charges or 
> at least a ticket, it's just words.
>
> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, or 
> just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a mission to 
> keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same officers 
> watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger fish long 
> ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American meteorites 
> "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for them to 
> figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to merit 
> the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other topic.
>
> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard core 
> meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours per year 
> without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with was aware 
> of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day if we ever  
> get together we can share some stories.
>
> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. You 
> can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up fossils all 
> day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold true for 
> meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North American 
> Lunar.
>
> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Larry Atkins
>
> IMCA # 1941
> Ebay alienrockfarm
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
> I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the
> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team members
> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been hassled
> as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know what
> is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated as
> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off
> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot find
> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in field
> so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with
> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the dinosaur.
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
> To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
> Hi Adam, All,
>
> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the laws
> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to nothing,
> ask Michael

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are not 
to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada 
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field 
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is after 
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us with 
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you sold?" 
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have no 
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real 
value is scientific.


Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed 
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and 
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The 
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.


Adam




- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:


I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are 
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been 
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men. 
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
and people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to 
protect people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of 
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American 
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.



- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or 
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
actual charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.


I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, 
or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a 
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same 
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger 
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American 
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for 
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money 
to merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other 
topic.


I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard 
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours 
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact 
with was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. 
Some day if we ever  get together we can share some stories.


As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. 
You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up 
fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold 
true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North 
American Lunar.


The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the
Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team members
were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been 
hassled
as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know 
what
is being sold on eBay.  We were told that so

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

It is best to contact the BLM office in either the Needles, CA or Barstow, 
CA and they will tell you directly the laws.  I have contacted both offices 
in the past.  It is consistent that meteorites found on public land cannot 
be used for commercial purposes without a permit.  Since there is no way to 
obtain a permit, the law clearly states that they can only be used for 
scientific and educational purposes.  They try to make it look like they can 
used for commercial purpose but if you read the law carefully, this is not 
the case without a permit which will never be issued therefore a law is 
being broken if any meteorites found on public land are sold.


BLM PDF which briefly answers questions although it is very nebulous in its 
content.


http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/wo/Information_Resources_Management/policy/im_attachments/2012.Par.65264.File.dat/IM2012-182_att1.pdf



- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are 
not

to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is 
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us 
with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you 
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have 
no

commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
<mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:



I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they 
are

still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
and

people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>;
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
actual

charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened 
during,

or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long 
for
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, n

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list]

Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> Exact wording from BLM website:
>
>
>
> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn details
> for their area of interest.
>
>
>
> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?
>
>
>
> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use.  A
> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be collected,
> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of fair
> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>
> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
>> Adam,
>>
>> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
>> section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
>>
>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are
>>> not
>>> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
>>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
>>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
>>> after
>>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
>>> with
>>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
>>> sold?"
>>> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have
>>> no
>>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
>>> value is scientific.
>>>
>>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
>>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
>>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
>>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>> <mikest...@gmail.com>
>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
>>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>>>
>>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
>>> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
>>> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
>>> to even make it as far as I did.
>>>
>>> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
>>> found on private property.
>>>
>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
>>>> are
>>>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
>>>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>>>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs
>>>> and
>>>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
>>>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>>>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
>>>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
>>

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list]

Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are not
> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is after
> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us with
> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you sold?"
> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have no
> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
> value is scientific.
>
> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>
> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>
> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
> they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
> to even make it as far as I did.
>
> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
> found on private property.
>
> -Michael in so. Cal.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are
>> still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs and
>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
>> people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
>> To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>;
>> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>>
>> Hi Adam,
>>
>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual
>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
>>
>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during,
>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for
>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to
>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
>> topic.
>>
>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours
>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with
>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day
>> if we ever  get together we can share some stories.
>>
>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point.
>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold
>> true for meteorites

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

Exact wording from BLM website:



Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn details 
for their area of interest.




Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?



Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an 
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use.  A 
permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be collected, 
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of fair 
market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.






- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are 
not

to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is 
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us 
with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you 
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have 
no

commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
<mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:



I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they 
are

still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
and

people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>;
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
actual

charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened 
during,

or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long 
for
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough 
money to

merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
topic.

I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of 
hours
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact 
with
was 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

Federal rules and regulations are laws.


- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

Exact wording from BLM website:



Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn 
details

for their area of interest.



Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?



Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
A
permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be 
collected,
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of 
fair

market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.






- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
<mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:


A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are
not
to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, 
Nevada

area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have
no
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
<mikest...@gmail.com>
To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:




I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not 
been

hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter 
eggs

and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to 
protect

people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


----- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>;
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without
actual
charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
during,
or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those 
same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

One just has to research Sue the T- Rex or the Old Woman meteorite to see 
that the regulations are enforceable under law.  The poor Sue the T-Rex 
finder was rewarded with a prison sentence under these regulations (laws).



- Original Message - 
From: "Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list" 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Federal rules and regulations are laws.


- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

Exact wording from BLM website:



Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn 
details

for their area of interest.



Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?



Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
A
permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be 
collected,
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of 
fair

market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.






- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
<mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:


A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land 
are

not
to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, 
Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the 
field

after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they 
have

no
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the 
real

value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers. 
The

Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
<mikest...@gmail.com>
To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:




I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not 
been

hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter 
eggs

and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to 
protect

people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North 
American

Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>;
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case stu

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Greg Hupe via Meteorite-list]

Waste of breath, don't use it in an endless 'debate'...
Keyboard Warrior Alert ...---...



-Original Message- 
From: Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list

Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 2:45 PM
To: Raremeteorites
Cc: Meteorite List
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are 
not

to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump, Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is 
after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us 
with

leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have no
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>
To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:



I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs 
and

people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.


- Original Message - From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>;
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without 
actual

charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during,
or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long 
for
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money 
to

merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
topic.

I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact 
with
was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some 
day

if we ever  get together we can share some stories.

As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point.
You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold
true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North
American Lunar.

The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Met

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Michael Mulgrew via Meteorite-list]

Then cite me title and section of the CFR that deals with meteorites.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> Federal rules and regulations are laws.
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>
> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>
>
>> Not a law.  Thank you.
>>
>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Exact wording from BLM website:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
>>> details
>>> for their area of interest.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
>>> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. A
>>> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be
>>> collected,
>>> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of
>>> fair
>>> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>> <mikest...@gmail.com>
>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Adam,
>>>>
>>>> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
>>>> section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
>>>>
>>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are
>>>>> not
>>>>> to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump,
>>>>> Nevada
>>>>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
>>>>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This is
>>>>> after
>>>>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
>>>>> with
>>>>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
>>>>> sold?"
>>>>> and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they have
>>>>> no
>>>>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
>>>>> value is scientific.
>>>>>
>>>>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
>>>>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
>>>>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers.  The
>>>>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>>>> <mikest...@gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
>>>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
>>>>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
>>>>> series of hoops 

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

Don't shoot the messenger.  I am opposed to this overregulation myself.  I 
am not a lawyer so you will have to obtain specific information directly 
from the source.  In this case, the U.S. Department of the Interior.  I am 
just trying to prevent field collectors from running into trouble instead of 
sticking my head in sand and ignoring that these rules/regulations/laws 
exist.



- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Then cite me title and section of the CFR that deals with meteorites.

Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

Federal rules and regulations are laws.


- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
<mikest...@gmail.com>

To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Not a law.  Thank you.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:


Exact wording from BLM website:



Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
details
for their area of interest.



Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or 
sold?




Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use. 
A

permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be
collected,
including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of
fair
market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.






- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
<mikest...@gmail.com>
To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.



Adam,

Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
section.  "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:



A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land 
are

not
to used for commercial purposes.  A BLM agent working the Pahrump,
Nevada
area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the 
field
after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites.  This 
is

after
the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch 
us

with
leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
sold?"
and so on.  Our team individually answered appropriately that they 
have

no
commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the 
real

value is scientific.

Future generations may remember our generation as the one that 
screwed

everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers. 
The

Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.

Adam




- Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew"
<mikest...@gmail.com>
To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. 
U.S.



Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
"BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.

Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - 
a

series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
they kept moving it further away.  I don't think they expected anyone
to even make it as far as I did.

We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% 
be

found on private property.

-Michael in so. Cal.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:





I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but 
they

are
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not
been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as 
Met-Men.

Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter
eggs
and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to
protect
people fr

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Carl Esparza via Meteorite-list]

List, 
I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I have been rock collecting for many years. I 
grew up in Arizona.  I have thousands of rocks (literally). And yes, they are 
just rocks until they are identified or classified otherwise. In the past few 
years Blaine Reed has made verification / identification a little easier than 
it has ever been before. Nowadays you can have them zapped with Blain's XRF 
hand held X-ray gun. With this service comes advise from Blaine as well. Blaine 
has gathered quite a database of knowledge. Not nearly as much guess work as 
before. Although there is a small fee for his services, it is well worth the 
expense. Before the XRF era you had to show it around to different people and 
get there opinion of whether it was a meteorite or not. Everyone had an opinion 
based largely on their own experience and sometimes it was not pretty. . More 
recently Aziz and Sean also bought XRF's to test with so, the industry is 
moving in the right direction. Additionally the Scientists are m
 ore and more publishing their results on chemistry found within the meteorites 
so, a rather interesting evolution has occurred. It is no longer just a guess. 
I now have literally dozens of analyzed rocks to study and compare chemistry 
with. This is a very exciting time in meteorites. I so look forward to the 
Tucson show but, to address the topic of this thread; Like LA 001 and LA 002 
Martian meteorites, many of the old finds will never have exact coordinates as 
back in the day this was not even possible. Nobody had a machine (GPS) that 
would tell you this info. Heck, you were lucky to even snap a photo of your 
find. Similarly the older official classifications also lack coordinates for 
the same reasons. I recently visited the Game and Fish to obtain a rock 
collecting permit. They told me all I needed to do is visit the local field 
office nearest the national forest and they would sell me a permit. They went 
on to say , with certain restrictions that I could pick up both specimens fo
 r collectors or landscape material for my yard. They followed up on 9/30/ 2015 
with a call from a lady there named Bev Everson and she told me it was no big 
deal as long as it is surface rocks and that I do not do much damage but I do 
need a permit. I never mentioned the word meterite because as I said before . 
They are just rocks until classified. Best to all. See you at the show. 
Carl
--
Love & Life

 Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> 
wrote: 
> Don't shoot the messenger.  I am opposed to this overregulation myself.  I 
> am not a lawyer so you will have to obtain specific information directly 
> from the source.  In this case, the U.S. Department of the Interior.  I am 
> just trying to prevent field collectors from running into trouble instead of 
> sticking my head in sand and ignoring that these rules/regulations/laws 
> exist.
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikest...@gmail.com>
> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
> 
> 
> > Then cite me title and section of the CFR that deals with meteorites.
> >
> > Michael in so. Cal.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> > <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >> Federal rules and regulations are laws.
> >>
> >>
> >> - Original Message - From: "Michael Mulgrew" 
> >> <mikest...@gmail.com>
> >> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>
> >> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Not a law.  Thank you.
> >>>
> >>> -Michael in so. Cal.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> >>> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Exact wording from BLM website:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
> >>>> details
> >>>> for their area of interest.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or 
> >>>> sold?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> &g

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are 
still on the books and most likely will never come off.  I have not been 
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men. 
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs and 
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect 
people from making any form of profit.  There is also no statue of 
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American 
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.



- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>

To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or whatever. 
really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual charges 
or at least a ticket, it's just words.


I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, or 
just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a mission 
to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same officers 
watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger fish long 
ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American meteorites 
"poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for them to 
figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to merit 
the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other topic.


I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard 
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours 
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with 
was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day 
if we ever  get together we can share some stories.


As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. You 
can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up fossils 
all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold true for 
meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North American 
Lunar.


The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the
Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team members
were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been hassled
as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know what
is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated as
heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off
limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot find
any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in field
so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with
their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the dinosaur.





- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>

To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam, All,

This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the laws
meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to nothing,
ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than hassle
rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've
never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I was
doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have a
great day!"

Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 where
you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
United States.  It is ag

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Greg Hupe via Meteorite-list]

I've read and scrolled 'torturously' through those 'Intergalactic 
Rants'. WTF

Get a life Keyboard Warriors...

Seriously, Get one ... ---...

Best Regards,
Me


-Original Message- 
From: ian macleod via Meteorite-list

Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:20 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

Hi Rob and list,


Rob, I agree 100% allowing private individuals to hunt and be rewarded is 
the most efficient and cost effective means to recover meteorites so far. 
This has worked perfectly in many countries for years even in Australia 
before the late 1980's. However times are changing and so is technology. In 
geopolitical stable countries where large networks are setup this may 
actually eliminate the need for private hunters all together..that is for 
new falls (the ones scientists and dealers are a mainly concerned with these 
days). In America private hunters maybe utilised and rewarded still to 
recover falls detected (conflict of interest). In Australia it might be a 
little slower to get out in the field in some cases. However but when they 
do go and find the stone it wont be cut into 1000 tiny bits to be sold off. 
Some say there is no issue with slice and dicing. For myself I think its a 
bit sad when a fall with a very small TKW is sliced up and sent off to the 
four winds and researchers have to pay hundreds or thousands for tiny 
pieces..



I don't expect anytime soon for NWA to dry up or for the market to stop 
(though its extremely slow for most small and mid level dealers).



You replied to my comments on orbit data and solar system mapping >


Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite of the 
problems
of private land ownership and considerably harder searching conditions than 
the
almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can work. I 
just
think the current U.S. laws favour a higher success rate than in Australia 
because

they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the people-hours
that get devoted to each fall.


- Forgive me if I am wrong, I have not yet seen any orbit data for either of 
these falls, just radar data etc namely how ground based technology was used 
very well to find the fall location.


The cameras developed by Curtin are an extremely powerful tool in large 
numbers they make this massive machine that is very very accurate and can be 
used to calculate accurately where a meteorite originated from. Its awesome 
how powerful this tech is!



Also NOMCOM has divided up the fall system into 5 categories just because of 
the may or maybe nots on fall confirmation. Even now when the hunters in NWA 
Africa find a stone that's fresh looking 'it was witnessed' and the price is 
so huge no one wants to even buy it. Do we really know it was witnessed? 
maybe it was maybe it was not..Its something being witnessed even 
scientifically valuable, or is 'witnessed with trajectory recorded' more 
important? I go with trajectory recorded.



So for me its simple, many institutions wont be able to keep up with the 
ridiculous pricing on meteorites, neither can collectors ( who seem to be 
dropping in numbers also) so lets change the game a little.



What is being done:-


Australians are being encouraged to be citizen scientists via the work of 
Curtin and others, apps and even all sky kits will be released.



Schools are having these systems installed in remote communities and many 
people are becoming involved. A real community effort, kids are learning 
directly and helping



private individuals will help to search in some cases


So I could by one or more all sky cam's and contribute in a massive way and 
learn other skills sets or just keep pumping huge amounts of cash into a 
never ending collection I wont be able to take into the next life.


sorry for upsetting my dealer mates


So for me the next stage of the evolution in meteoritics is all sky tech, 
natural progression.



After 5 years of seeing many people really only getting excited when there 
is a new fall, who's selling, or if their 'rights' are being taken away, or 
how much money can be made, ka ching. Even little science being discussed on 
the list by most, just how do I own some or I am selling some. Im not 
against buying or seling but wow!



More money talk/adds occurs in meteoritics  than any other hobby/science 
field I can think of



fossil or bobble head collecting isn't even this bad


I am sorta over it


so this is why I am for a change, even just personally in my walk or how I 
can contribute


Cheers mate

Ian






























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Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the 
Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team members 
were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been hassled 
as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know what 
is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated as 
heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off 
limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot find 
any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in field 
so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with 
their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the dinosaur.






- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>

To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam, All,

This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the laws 
meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to nothing, 
ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people 
enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than hassle 
rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've 
never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law 
enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I was 
doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have a 
great day!"


Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 where
you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use meteorites
found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is not
allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited from
making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.



2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes
have
decayed below the threshold of detectability.


- Original Message - 
From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list"

<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Ian,

Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison example
against
current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
appropriate.


Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my mind for
science.


In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill, Novato,
Battle Mountain,
Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these falls.


USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the fireball, a
private individual
and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then on
sold. Finally it
was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral..just not
ideal


I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each of
these falls made
it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to consider:

(1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the majority of
pertinent
scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love to
have all of it since
the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous. (Case
in point:
Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much more
you're
going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.

(2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
that the total
mass deposited with accredited instit

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Larry Atkins via Meteorite-list]

Hi Adam, All,

This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the laws 
meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to nothing, ask 
Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people enforcing the 
laws of our wild lands have better things to do than hassle rock hounds. In my 
sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've never heard of, or 
experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law enforcement of all types 
while in the field, told them exactly what I was doing, talked money and 
everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have a great day!"

Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins
 
IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm
 


-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 where 
you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the 
United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use meteorites 
found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is not 
allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited from 
making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.



2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of 
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material 
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows 
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just 
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall 
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when 
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes 
have
decayed below the threshold of detectability.


- Original Message - 
From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list" 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Ian,

Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison example 
against
current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is 
appropriate.

> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my mind for 
> science.

In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill, Novato, 
Battle Mountain,
Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these falls.

> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the fireball, a 
> private individual
> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then on 
> sold. Finally it
> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral..just not 
> ideal

I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each of 
these falls made
it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to consider:

(1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the majority of 
pertinent
scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love to 
have all of it since
the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous. (Case 
in point:
Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much more 
you're
going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.

(2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of 
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material 
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows 
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just 
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall 
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when 
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes 
have
decayed below the threshold of detectability.

(3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND 
considerable
expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than 95% of 
the
annual resources made available through government grants to recover 
meteorites
goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis of 
nearly
all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a number 
of falls
outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time and 
money
traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of these
expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated 
individuals --
names that w

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Larry Atkins via Meteorite-list]

Hi Adam,

What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or whatever. 
really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual charges or 
at least a ticket, it's just words.

I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, or 
just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a mission to 
keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same officers watching 
eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger fish long ago. Not much 
to get uptight about on eBay regarding American meteorites "poached" from state 
or federal land. It wouldn't take long for them to figure out that monitoring 
eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to merit the effort. The crater is the 
exception but that's a whole other topic.

 I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard core 
meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours per year 
without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with was aware of 
what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day if we ever  get 
together we can share some stories.

As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. You 
can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up fossils all 
day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold true for 
meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North American Lunar.

 The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins
 
IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm
 


-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I wish what you said was true.  Our entire group was hassled around the 
Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California.  Eight of our team members 
were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been hassled 
as well.  Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know what 
is being sold on eBay.  We were told that some public land is designated as 
heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off 
limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas.  I cannot find 
any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in field 
so be careful.  Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with 
their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the dinosaur.





- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Adam, All,

This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the laws 
meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to nothing, 
ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people 
enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than hassle 
rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've 
never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law 
enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I was 
doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have a 
great day!"

Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.



Sincerely,
Larry Atkins

IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm



-Original Message-
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 where
you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use meteorites
found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is not
allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited from
making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.



2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisot

Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 where 
you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the 
United States.  It is against federal and most state laws to use meteorites 
found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is not 
allowed to sell anything they find.  Private citizen are prohibited from 
making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.




2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of 
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material 
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows 
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just 
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall 
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when 
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes 
have

decayed below the threshold of detectability.


- Original Message - 
From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list" 


To: 
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


Hi Ian,

Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison example 
against
current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is 
appropriate.


Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my mind for 
science.


In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill, Novato, 
Battle Mountain,

Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these falls.

USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the fireball, a 
private individual
and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then on 
sold. Finally it
was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral..just not 
ideal


I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each of 
these falls made

it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to consider:

(1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the majority of 
pertinent
scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love to 
have all of it since
the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous. (Case 
in point:
Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much more 
you're

going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.

(2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of 
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material 
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows 
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just 
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall 
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when 
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes 
have

decayed below the threshold of detectability.

(3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND 
considerable
expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than 95% of 
the
annual resources made available through government grants to recover 
meteorites
goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis of 
nearly
all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a number 
of falls
outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time and 
money

traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of these
expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated 
individuals --
names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On 
occasion I have
seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it was on 
their
own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are paid to 
analyze

meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.

Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden ( old 
falls and
cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just add to 
the 50,000
stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is that 
when
our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking for 
profit or cost

recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!


Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this is the 
case
in the U.S.  Researchers have access to the same information that I do: 
Doppler
radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS website 
and
a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is stopping 
them

from competing with private citizens.

We will know where