Re: [meteorite-list] The 'Ãdegaard 54kg meteorite ': Iron slag says NHM, Norway
Bjorn, List, As I posted, it was an obvious piece of bog iron, with all the characteristics. Bog iron was still "refined" by progressive melts up into the 18th century until cheap modern iron and then steel became available. This was true everywhere that it could be found. There was a flourishing bog iron industry in Colonial America, and I have no doubt it was still being done on homesteads in Norway through the same time period, which is why the metallurgist said it was 2-3 centuries old or more. I imagine he recognized it as incompletely refined bog iron. Such a meteor-wrong could be as easily found in New Jersey or New England as in Norway or Denmark. It is common find (in smaller, unrefined pieces) anywhere with well-watered acidic swampy meadows. It is created by "iron-excreting" bacteria! Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Bjorn Sorheim" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:00 PM Subject: The 'Ãdegaard 54kg meteorite': Iron slag says NHM, Norway Supposed to be Norway's 2nd largest meteorite, was just old iron slag. KJR Ãdegaard was 99% certain it was a meteorite. Would eat 'grey stones' if it was not! I might recommend him staying with his heavy stars in the future. At least norwegian press should stop using 'meteorite expert' about him and his rock evaluations. Translate using translate.google.com www.kvinnheringen.no/nyhende/article5346528.ece www.bt.no/nyheter/lokalt/Meteoritt-var-ikke-fra-himmelen-1174890.html Bjørn Sørheim __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] The 'Ãdegaard 54kg meteorite ': Iron slag says NHM, Norway
Bjorn, List, I never meant to imply that it was a "raw" piece of bog iron. Clearly it has been through the furnace. Bog iron occurs naturally in many, much smaller, irregular pieces. The traditional "furnace" was a stone cylinder lined with clay, with fuel on the bottom, whose combustion was assisted by a bellows. Pieces of iron -- bog iron, Grandpa's broken belt buckle, a pan with a hole in the bottom -- were tossed in the top, as was more fuel when needed, usually charcoal. Temperatures ranged from 300 C at the top and reached up to 1200 C or more at the bottom. The slag, oxides of iron, silicon, etc., drained out through a port at the bottom of the furnace. It was a highly reducing environment with lots of carbon monoxide which would combine with the oxides (impurities) and leave the iron in an elemental state... more or less. The result was a spongy vesicular low-density blob of low-carbon iron called a "bloom." That's what the famous Hatlestrand meteorite is. Of course, after that you have to heat it and pound it and increase its density, eliminating voids, and so forth. (List members commented on the apparent low density; it lifted too easily!) Unless you eliminate the carbon content, the iron won't be malleable and can't be worked. I would guess that whoever made this bloom didn't know what they were doing -- it is far too large a bloom to be worked on an anvil by a mere mortal. It would need a jötunn or Thor himself to hammer it flat... This type of refining is immensely difficult work and is only utilized in historical times when iron was costly and precious, i.e., anciently. To recognize it requires, not a geologist, but a metallurgical archeologist. Bog iron is, of course, merely one type of iron ore, albeit a low grade form. Selbekk (a geologist, not a metallurgist) said "The Hatlestrand stone [is] a lump of slag after attempts to extract iron from iron ore by means of heat. And as far as I've heard, it went on, the burning of iron ore in the area on Hatlestrand in earlier times, he says." Yes, it was bog iron. Selbekk should know that Norway (unlike Sweden, curse their Volvos) lacks commercial varieties of iron ore except in its very far North -- very far, like Kirkenes on the Russian border near the popular vacation spot of Murmansk! In fact, this year Norway will be supplying its Arctic iron ore to the hungry steel mills of China by way of the Arctic Ocean route for the first time: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/09/norway-ship-iron-ore-across-arctic-to-china.php and http://www.nordicbulkcarriers.com/media/?sub=3 I suspect that the Hatlestrand bloom was somebody's attempt to make iron the "old-fashioned" way, a failed attempt. At any rate, it didn't result in a meteorite or anything that even vaguely resembled one. It doesn't make Knut Jørgen Ãdegaard seem very authoritative. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Bjorn Sorheim" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] The 'Ãdegaard 54kg meteorite': Iron slag says NHM, Norway Sterling, List The geologist says it is rather iron slag from trying to make iron from iron ore, not bog iron. To me the stone may look like something like a local plutonic rock from one of the images. It is a great astonishment to learn that it has only a volume of 9 litres, still it looks like it is ~40cm in length. Try to calculate that... But the depressing thing and main point about the story is that you have an astronomer, who have very little or no deeper knowledge about rocks and -meteorwrongs- specifically. And in the last ten years he have made the whole norwegian press, + radio/tv (he was on national TV with this) believe he is an expert in meteorites. He is an absolute beginner, especially compared to most on this list. I am not even shure he has begun learning about meteorites, cause what he says about stones supposed to be meteorites never make sense. It looks like he has no interest in them. It's being in the news with a sensational story that matters to him, I'm sorry to say... Bjørn Sørheim Bjørn Sørheim - Bjorn, List, As I posted, it was an obvious piece of bog iron, with all the characteristics. Bog iron was still "refined" by progressive melts up into the 18th century until cheap modern iron and then steel became available. This was true everywhere that it could be found. There was a flourishing bog iron industry in Colonial America, and I have no doubt it was still being done on homesteads in Norway through the same time period, which is why the metallurgist said it was 2-3 centuries old or more. I imagine he recognized it as incompletely refined bog iron. Such
Re: [meteorite-list] The 'Ãdegaard 54kg meteorite ': Iron slag says NHM, Norway
Richard, List, Most bog iron is limonite (dark) or goethite (orange). Large pieces of bog iron from the Pine Barrens, New Jersey: http://www.packetinsider.com/blog/nature/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bog-iron-batsto-7-4-09-cfe1.jpg Collection of A. L. Swinehart, Hillsdale College (goethite): http://www.knuckleheadquarters.net/images/ALS-BogIron.JPG Thousands of pieces extracted from a Newfoundland bog: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_W9TgkjqLxl4/SxFhewA17DI/AZ8/Y9GKQOoiGCQ/s1600/bog-ore.jpg In laminae and strata: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qhRvCSN2-nGeARrKCgcraQ From Poland: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Limonite_bog_iron_cm02.jpg From Appalachia: http://www.appaltree.net/aba/education/historical/history%20art/Bog-Iron-ore.jpg Lots of it in Louisiana: http://www.thegenieslamp.com/bogiron/bogiron.jpg The Iron Bog in Utah has everything you need: mountain streams + swampy meadows + acidity = iron: http://www.utahhikingandlakes.com/images/Iron%20Bog.jpg "Streams carry dissolved iron from nearby mountains. In the bog, the iron is concentrated by two processes. The bog environment is acidic, with a low concentration of dissolved oxygen. In the acidic environment of the bog, a chemical reaction forms insoluble iron compounds which precipitate out. But more importantly, anaerobic bacteria (Gallionella and Leptothrix) growing under the surface of the bog concentrate the iron as part of their life processes. Their presence can be detected on the surface by the iridescent oily film they leave on the water (left), another sure sign of bog iron." http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/bog_iron.htm This site has excellent information and photos of everything about ancient production of bog iron. And of course, there's the Wundeful Wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron About 3500 years ago, a people called the Hittites became an important and large empire because they could make this strange new metal that was stronger and sharper than copper or the best bronze -- instant world domination. It was called iron. For a while, the Hittites were the only ones who knew where the ore was and what it looked like and how to refine it. A few hundred years later, when everybody knew, it was all over for them. Still, not everybody had good refinable iron ore where they lived. That was a problem. Bog Iron, although hard to work with and somewhat inferior and scarcer, became very important. Without it, any jerk with enough iron swords could push you around. With Bog Iron, you have a chance to push them around for a change. The Vikings are an good example. Bog Iron and Being Completely Crazy will take you a long way. Bog Iron was important in Colonial America where iron was a costly import from the Mother Country. The Saugus Iron Works refined bog iron starting in 1646. New Jersey was the biggest producer (the picture of the big pieces above); that variety of iron was un-rustable, always a valuable thing in iron products. Snow Hill, Maryland was a major producer up to 1850. We shot at the British in the Revolutionary War and 1812 with Bog Iron cannonballs. (Sorry about that, chaps!) So, yeah, I got my expert status on Bog Iron from the Internet University of Nowhere, BUT... when I saw the so-called "meteorite" from Norway, I recognized it from having seen Bog Iron before. It's pretty distinctive. Compare the Polish piece in the Wikipedia article with the so-called meteorite. And, you know, I got all these pictures in ten minutes by Google-Image-ing for "bog iron." You, too, could become an instant expert on almost anything that way. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Richard Montgomery" To: "Sterling K. Webb" ; ; "Bjorn Sorheim" Cc: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]The 'Ãdegaard 54kg meteorite': Iron slag says NHM, Norway Sterling, it'd be fun to see pics of bog-iron. Can you provide a link, or post any photos? I'm big into m-wrongs. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" To: ; "Bjorn Sorheim" Cc: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]The 'Ãdegaard 54kg meteorite': Iron slag says NHM, Norway Bjorn, List, As I posted, it was an obvious piece of bog iron, with all the characteristics. Bog iron was still "refined" by progressive melts up into the 18th century until cheap modern iron and then steel became available. This was true everywhere that it could be found. There was a flourishing bog iron industry in Colonial America, and I have no doubt it was still being done on homesteads in Norway through the same time period, which is why the metallurgist said it was 2-3 centuries old or more. I imagine he recognized it as
Re: [meteorite-list] You Naysaying Denialists Are All Wrong, Dowsing Works!
Dean, EXACTLY this experiment has been performed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI or as near as makes no difference. Every dowser failed the test. (This URL was posted to the List at the beginning of this kerfluffle by Darren Garrison.) Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "dean bessey" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:08 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] You Naysaying Denialists Are All Wrong,Dowsing Works! OK, here is what needs to be done. (1) Get 10 non see through buckets that wont even show shadows. (2) Get ten items. A couple meteorites, toys, other crystals etc (3) Make sure that the person with the dowsing rod knows exactly what all the items are like so that he/she can properly view them and therefore possibly get "vibes" from the items. (4) make dowser leave the house for a while (5) Accomplice will then spread the ten buckets throughout the yard hiding one of the ten items under each bucket. (6) Dowser returns home and looks at all buckets but not knowing what is under what bucket. (7) Accomplice has video camera ready (8) Dowser then does his thing over the buckets trying to identify where the meteorites and other stuff is located (8a) While #8 is in progress accomplice is video taping the entire thing. It is important that the video is under ten minutes long and less than 100 megs in size (9) Upload video to Youtube so that we can all see the results (Size and length of video noted in #8a is important because of youtube limitations. (10) we can then all comment/criticize/ make judgments on video test. It should be noted that in 1902 some German scientists wrote a paper that some non distinct rocks lying haphazardly around could be turned into energy that could power houses (And later submarines and spaceships). After paper was written scientists extensively laughed at and ridiculed. Turning rocks to energy they said. Sounds a lot like turning lead into gold. If said scientists was alive today he would marvel at walking through one of hundreds of power plants that supply much of the worlds electricity that was powered by his special rocks (Uranium). __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Dowsing is real, but exoplanets are dubious?!
I'm going to need to see a visible light photograph of an exoplanet to confirm their existence. Here it is: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101015105935.htm Next? Will the next in line please step forward? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "JoshuaTreeMuseum" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 5:07 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] OT: Dowsing is real, but exoplanets are dubious?! I'm going to need to see a visible light photograph of an exoplanet to confirm their existence. Ditto for black holes. ;) But then again, people believe in all kinds of things that are not supported by evidence. You just have to really want to believe it: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19586-first-lifefriendly-exoplanet-may-not-exist.html http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/10/12/um-that-goldilocks-exoplanet-may-not-exist/ Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: Dowsing is real, but exoplanets are dubious?!
If the devices seem to work for the Iraqi's, I can propose a simpler explanation for why the worthless wands do anything at all. What they do is make those with good reason to not want to be stopped and especially not to be searched nervous, because even the best-educated terrorist probably believes in these impressing-looking but worthless Gizmo's. And there is no cop in the world that can't "smell" a nervous perp. Even the worst cop can do that. Even if you're only nervous because you're in the hands of a bad cop. So the device has a "high rate" of detections which will include among the many false positives, most if not all of the true positives. So, yeah... it actually works. Dum cops and dummer terrorists make twitchier suspects and better detection. What a racket! I wish I'd thought of it... Lesee, 1500 ADE-651's at $16,500 each (in bulk) is $25,000,000. $50,000 to have the Gizmo made in China and shipped. Pay off the Ministry of Internal Security in Bagdad for the contract... How much does that come to? Ain't Free Enterprise great! Sterling K. Webb (with thanks to William of Occam) -- - Original Message - From: "JoshuaTreeMuseum" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] OT: Dowsing is real, but exoplanets are dubious?! Hi Mike, I think the point of the article is relevant to what's being discussed here. People that know for scientific reasons that dowsing doesn't work, can't dowse because it won't work for them. Dowsing only works for the ignorant like myself and dumb construction workers and plumbers. The Iraqis believe in these devices and they work for them. And we're talking about life or death here, surely the devices work, they're staking their life on them. The experts make the exact same arguments in the article that I've heard hear. Scientific test show the devices give no better than random results, etc. etc. Everybody keeps telling them they don't work, when obviously the Iraqis know that they do work, otherwise they'd be getting blown up. Unless the Iraqis are so dumb, they're getting blown up, yet still insist on using the dowsers. If that was the case, surely the article would have reported it. This is the NY Times after all. I like at the end of the article where the naysayer can't get the dowser to work, but it works perfectly for the believer. It's like that Monty Python episode where everybody has to believe in the apartment building or it falls down. A non-believer moves in and the building starts collapse, until the believers convert him and the building goes back up. Every time he has doubts, the building starts to fall down, then he recants and the building goes back up. That's some funny stuff! And even though these guys are putting their lives on the line every day with their dowsers, they of course can't pass the fraudulent Randi's impossible requirements and cash in on his stupid million dollar con. Click on the link for pictures of the overpriced, phony dowsing devices that can't possibly work, yet still do http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/middleeast/04sensors.html BAGHDAD - Despite major bombings that have rattled the nation, and fears of rising violence as American troops withdraw, Iraq's security forces have been relying on a device to detect bombs and weapons that the United States military and technical experts say is useless. Skip to next paragraph Related Times Topics: Iraq Enlarge This Image Johan Spanner for The New York Times The sensor device, known as the ADE 651, from $16,500 to $60,000 each. Iraq has bought more than 1,500 of the devices. The small hand-held wand, with a telescopic antenna on a swivel, is being used at hundreds of checkpoints in Iraq. But the device works "on the same principle as a Ouija board" - the power of suggestion - said a retired United States Air Force officer, Lt. Col. Hal Bidlack, who described the wand as nothing more than an explosives divining rod. Still, the Iraqi government has purchased more than 1,500 of the devices, known as the ADE 651, at costs from $16,500 to $60,000 each. Nearly every police checkpoint, and many Iraqi military checkpoints, have one of the devices, which are now normally used in place of physical inspections of vehicles. With violence dropping in the past two years, Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki has taken down blast walls along dozens of streets, and he contends that Iraqis will safeguard the nation as American troops leave. But the recent bombings of government buildings here have underscored how precarious Iraq remains, especially with the coming parliamentary elections and the violence expected to accompany them. The suicide bombers who manage
Re: [meteorite-list] Finding fossil Meteorites
There are a number of impact and possibly impact related events going on in the solar system in this time frame of 480 mya back to 570 mya. (Mya = million years ago.) Far more events than in most time periods of that length. 1. The density of fossil meteorites in the Swedish quarries indicate a fall rate approximately 120 (+/- 50) times that of the present day over a period of at least 2 my. 2. The distribution of impact glass spherules in lunar soil indicate that the inner solar system impact rate, having declined asymptotically since 3800 mya, began to rise at 600 mya and peaked about 420 mya at a rate not seen for 3 billion years. It's still at this rate, with some evidence (disputed) for another increase about 100 mya. 3. The largest asteroidal breakup of the past few billion years occurred about 500 (+/- 100) mya, the Flora family, believed to be the source of the Ordovician fossil meteorites. As Chris pointed out, the age of L-chondrites corresponds to this same time period with great exactitude (465 +/- 15 mya). 8 Flora is a 130-km body, the innermost large asteroid. No asteroid as close to the Sun as Flora has a diameter above 25 kilometers. Flora's orbit is in the Ecliptic plane (5.5 degrees inclination). Flora has a composite surface (L-chondrite and nickel-iron). The size of the "original" pre-breakup Flora is unknown. Essentially, Flora is/was the closest major asteroid to the inner solar system, where things are happening. 4. Between 480 mya and 620 mya, the Earth had three large-scale glaciation episodes (the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th largest of its history, one of which was the "Snowball Earth" glaciation in which ice may have covered (or almost covered) the entire planet, land and sea, to the equator. In addition, there was an episode of rapid axial tilt re-orientation so fast and large that it's hard to accept the claim, although the evidence for it is remarkably good. It's just hard to wrap your head around it. 5. The total re-surfacing of the planet Venus is dated by the crater-count method to 480 (+/- 60) mya. Totally resurfacing an entire terrestrial planet, over-turning the crust and melting at least the upper portion of the mantle, requires the impact of materials whose total mass is roughly equal to a 300+ mile body at an absolute minimum. As there is no coherent "geological" explanation for re-surfacing an entire planet, impact would seem to be the default. All the evidence of these events are confined to the crowded inner solar system. There is no indication (that we know of) of large-scale impacts or planetarily significant events in this period for Mars or any outer system objects. What we have is an assemblage of evidences of major events, some fairly explainable and others much more obscure. The close association of so many "catastrophic" events with this fairly specific period of time is unlikely to be a coincidence. Some connection between these events is more likely than not. The most energetic of these possible events would have to be the Venus re-surfacing and crust/mantle melting by impact. This would leave the other events to be "blowby" of that event, even the Flora breakup. Something happened. Past that, it's speculation. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "MEM" To: ; Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Finding fossil Meteorites Hello Bernd, I believe those numbers are from a specific incident and may have been those found in the tiles on the floor where they were first identified by an astute geologist attending a function there. They were subsequently traced back to one quarry ( Brunflo?) Subsequently many more were found at several quarries in Sweden. I agree regarding the mineralogy of fossil meteorites and probably depletion of expected elements. Knowing what I think I know about typical meteorite fabric, deep weathering, taphonomy , and secondary mineral formation(wink wink) any fossil meteorite will likely be depleted of the normal, hallmark, minerals/elements via normal leaching. For example, I think nickel is more mobile than we ordinarily believe and it will probably be carried away to form the microscopic hair-like crystals ( aka accular) of the mineral "millerite" or even a nickel carbonate gaspetite(?) which might be missed on casual observation. Another example might be the pyroxines. They weather into a very "non-mineral looking" flexible sheet of the mineral palygorskite also know as mountain cork/leather, and so on. Fossil meteorites may retain meteorite character in composition or in form with no original mineralization or easily recognizable meteoric shale ( e.g. Sardis Iron, Georgia, USA). I'd be curious as to the nickle content of that shale, or Lake Murry sh
Re: [meteorite-list] EPOXI images of Comet Hartley 2
Re: the effects of outgassing jets on a comet's orbit.
Fred Whipple was the first to work out how the
dynamic effects of outgassing ("jets") affected the orbit
of a comet, right after he proposed the "icy snowball"
model of comets (replacing the XIXth century "flying
gravel bank" model, which today is the "rubble pile"
model).
I can't find his paper on it, but I recall that he first
applied it successfully to the irregularities in the
orbit of Cemet Enke, for which the position of the
biggest "jet" observed at that time was known).
Whipple's general idea can be found here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fo-GY4J1h4cC&pg=PA242&lpg=PA242&dq=whipple+comet+jets&source=bl&ots=qOBQ9JRGUk&sig=nvwqERqQ_16nU0J76zG4uKnS00A&hl=en&ei=W0nTTLiRCof0sgarl7j6DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whipple%20comet%20jets&f=false
on page 242.
Sterling K. Webb
---
- Original Message -
From: "Chris Peterson"
To: "MeteorList"
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] EPOXI images of Comet Hartley 2
The outgassing does affect the orbit, but the actual impact is very
small. The actual mass loss is tiny compared with the entire mass of
the nucleus, and the material velocity is low.
Chris
*
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
- Original Message -
From: "Count Deiro"
To: "Gary Fujihara" ; "MeteorList"
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] EPOXI images of Comet Hartley 2
Gary and List,
Thank you for the post, Big Kahuna. Anybody know if all that
outgassing imparts any thrust to the comet... and if so would it
affect its orbit?
Count Deiro
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Re: [meteorite-list] EPOXI images of Comet Hartley 2
As soon as you say say you can't find something on the internet, you find it. Whipple's original paper is in the bibliography of this paper which summarizes the dynamic effects of ourgassing jets on the orbit: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1981A%26A98...45W "On the outgassing and jet thrust of snowball comets," by M. K. Wallis & A. K. MacPherson, in Astronomy and Astrophysics, vol. 98, no. 1, May 1981, p. 45-49. A downloadable PDF. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Chris Peterson" To: "MeteorList" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] EPOXI images of Comet Hartley 2 The outgassing does affect the orbit, but the actual impact is very small. The actual mass loss is tiny compared with the entire mass of the nucleus, and the material velocity is low. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Count Deiro" To: "Gary Fujihara" ; "MeteorList" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] EPOXI images of Comet Hartley 2 Gary and List, Thank you for the post, Big Kahuna. Anybody know if all that outgassing imparts any thrust to the comet... and if so would it affect its orbit? Count Deiro __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Not a Meteor? California A LAunch?
I doubt the Frisbee. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "drtanuki" To: ; "Global Meteor Observing Forum" Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 2:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Not a Meteor? California A LAunch? http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2010/11/not-meteor-meteormeteorite-news.html Hope FOX News checked their sources! Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Not a missile -- a jet contrail
I had hoped that nobody would bring the Pleidians and the Lizard People into this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M5Bf6TtW8w&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKx4MeBybkc&feature=player_embedded "To Serve Man" is a cookbook... Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Mike Hankey" To: "Matson, Robert D." Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Not a missile -- a jet contrail Why is everyone beating around the bush here!? Isn't it obvious? We all know this was the Pleiadians and Lizard People who are going to explode America while Obama is in Asia http://wonkette.com/429668/pleiadians-lizard-people-going-to-explode-america-while-obama-is-in-asia On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Matson, Robert D. wrote: Hi All, We've seen this sort of thing before, folks. It's not a missile launch. It's just a sunlit contrail from an airliner flying toward (and to the right) of the camera. SLBMs are not launched so close to the California coastline, and certainly not without submitting a NOTAM. --Rob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of impact...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 5:23 PM To: drtan...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; meteor...@meteorobs.org Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Not a Meteor? California A LAunch? In a message dated 11/9/2010 6:14:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, drtan...@yahoo.com writes: http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2010/11/not-meteor-meteormeteo rite-news.html Hope FOX News checked their sources! Tokyo On AOL News: http://www.aolnews.com/surge-desk/article/mystery-missile-lights-up-los- angeles-skies/19709162?icid=main%7Cwelcome%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C183117 More reliable than Fox? Anne M. Black http://www.impactika.com/ impact...@aol.com President, I.M.C.A. Inc. http://www.imca.cc/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Announces Comet Encounter News Conference
Images with explanations of what you're seeing. Carbon dioxide jets carrying water (H20) ice: http://epoxi.umd.edu/3gallery/20101118_AHearn5.shtml Water (H20) ice sublimes (from solid to gas): http://epoxi.umd.edu/3gallery/20101118_AHearn4.shtml Particles, particles (of water ice) everywhere and no beer for millions of miles: http://epoxi.umd.edu/3gallery/20101118_Schultz1.shtml Fluffy snowbals move with comet in movie (let it load): http://epoxi.umd.edu/3gallery/vid_20101118_Schultz3.shtml Carl, here, your spectra. The coma is a match for micron-sized ice (H20) particles: http://epoxi.umd.edu/3gallery/20101118_Sunshine2.shtml Water (H20) ice snowstorm; reminds me of the north side of Chicago or maybe Milwaukee: http://epoxi.umd.edu/3gallery/vid_20101118_AHearn2.shtml Carbon dioxide sublimes (solid to gas) at a much colder temperature than water ice, therefore it will turn to gas within the comet at an internal temperature at which the water ice won't, creating the jets. On the warmer surface the carbon dioxide has already boiled away by the time the water ice starts to sublime. This means that the gas from below (C02) and the gas from the surface (H20) are coming off at the same time. But the jets of "hot" C02 (well, hot for C02!) are blowing chunks of ice off the surface even as they start to "melt." Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: To: ; "Bob King" Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Announces Comet Encounter News Conference Hi Bob. Perhaps you did not read the NASA link I provided in my previous post. Here it is in case you missed it; http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/11/19/spacecraft-flies-past-snowstorm-comet/ Again, all do respect here. To be clear my questions here relate to gaining the knowledge of what rocks to look for that might be of a cometary origin. Not to knock others opinions. I just want logical answers. The link does say they think it is "water ice" as opposed to other substances. They go on to say that "jets of carbon dioxide *appear to be* fueled by water vapor. Vapor is the evaporation of boiling liquid water. But later say there are also large hailstone chunks to boot. I think it looks like hot dust (smoke) . They say some of the hailstorm of "Fluffy Ice" that hit the spacecraft may have been between the size of a golf ball and a basketball. This with NO damage to the spacecraft? Dr. A. Hearn also points out "how different Comets are from one another". Aw Ha moment here? They are different! You ask. How could they stay hot? That is the big question. I suppose it depends upon what they are made of. Iron might stay hot longer than mica for example. And or, Perhaps they contain some source of renewable energy source within them? . A source that is yet known to us? How do we know whether they are cooling or not? That coupled with the fact that all things take time. Look no farther than the published cooling rates of iron meteorites. The Tucson iron meteorite is said to not display the widmanstten pattern on an etched surface primarily because in spite of the fact that it contains plenty of nickel, it cooled too fast. This cooling rate has been calculated for the Tucson Iron ring meteorite to be in the order of 1 degree C per one thousand years. This again is considered a rapid cooling rate. No, nothing makes much sense if you believe what they say that hailstones the size of golf balls to basketballs hit this craft. It had to of been smoke from the intense heat of this comet to have not damaged the craft. ice and even melted ice in the form of water at 27K miles per hour would have damaged the craft. Incidentally , I took a piece of coal in the dark and illuminated it. Sorry, but it looks nothing like the close-up pics of Hartley 2 and that is the comet we are talking about here. No antique distant pics from the past can compare with these new pics. We are in a new age of discovery and should give up these old and possibly obsolete photos and theories of the past. One more thing. If these so called "infrared spectrometers" tell us what this Comet is made of then I would love to hear it? Please spare me the Fluffy ice though. What other minerals are abundant on comet hartley 2? Thanks. Again. IMHO. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Bob King wrote: Hi Carl and all, I thought it was clear that the fluffy snow chunks were water ice. They can determine composition of materials on and around the comet with the infrared spectrometer aboard the probe. Water was discovered a while back by ground-based telescopes in quite a number of comets. Also, while some of the stuff spewing out is a few inches across, there's probably a lot more that's tinier - everything from smoke
Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites
Some points for the debate: The rapid flight through the atmosphere is very brief -- 1-2 seconds. This is not much time to change the temperature of the stone. The rate at which the friction-generated heat is transferred to the interior of the stone is determined by the thermal conductivity of that rock, and rock's thermal conductivity is very low, so low that virtually none of the heat will affect temperatures deeper than a few millimeters or a centimeter into the stone. Most of that heat generated by friction on the outer surface goes into melting rock which is then is removed from the meteorite by on-going ablation. The molten material stripped from the stone takes that heat with it as it becomes the particles in the trail (which have their own thermal evolution that does not affect the stone). Only a small fraction is "wasted" by warming the stone itself. That said, thermal equilibrium of the stone is likely achieved (or nearly) within a very short time once it lands. Its temperature will be more-or-less whatever it was before it encountered this obstructive planet. Apart from some rough treatment of the surface, the stone's temperature is the same as it always was. So, what temperature WAS the meteoroid in the many thousands or millions of years that it orbited the sun? That depends on what its orbit was, or more precisely, WHERE its orbit was and its emissivity and reflectivity and so on. Take a look at the following chart of Meteoroid Temperature vs. Solar Distance, supplied by MexicoDoug: http://www.diogenite.com/met-temp.html It is a model derived from fairly complete and reasonable assumptions, which were discussed on this List long ago: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2005-January/007521.html This is the first of three parts; follow the links for #2 and #3. Those with more factors to include are welcome to refine the model, I'm sure. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Temperature of meteorites Thanks Bernd: This will help a lot! My guess is that "warm" means warmer than the air temperature, but probably not much warmer than body temperature since even 15 to 20 degrees Centigrade (125 to 135 degrees F) is considered hot. Given that some have been said to be frosty, and one always hears that they are the temperature of space, how many of the "hot" ones might actually be too cold to handle? Maybe that is the myth! I am very surprised that anything small that has had a chance to cool down in the atmosphere would still be to hot to handle on the ground. I guess I will just have to wait and see my own Fall and pick it up quickly! I wish I could find the old Lost City fall picture of the meteorite in snow. I do not remember seeing any melted snow around it, but it must have been warm enough to attract a dog. Larry Good morning Listees, Listoids, Listers, Here's a copy of something I posted many years ago (maybe 2004). Cheers, Bernd --- Meteorites - warm or hot to the touch? 01) The Binningup meteorite was recovered within a few minutes of the fall and was reported to have been warm to the touch. 02) Cabin Creek: Three hours after the fall, Mr. and Mrs. Shandy were able to find the hole and excavate the mass, reportedly still uncomfortably warm. 03) Glatton: was warm, not hot, when first picked up. 04) Gurram Konda: near the tent some small warm stones, which the Sentry has seen falling down. 05) Juromenha: The mass was said to have been incandescent when discovered and still warm when recovered next morning 06) L'Aigle: Affrighted persons who picked them up found the stones to be very warm and smelling of sulfur. 07) Limerick: It was immediately dug up, and I have been informed by those that were present, and on whom I could rely, that it was then warm and had a sulphurous smell. 08) Middlesbrough: The stone was "new-milk warm" when found, ... 09) Noblesville: The meteorite was not glowing as it passed the boys and was "slightly warm" when Spaulding picked it up a few seconds after it fell. 10) Pettiswood: The affrighted horse fell to the Earth, and two boys rushed to him in terror carrying fragments that Bingley found to be warm as milk just from the cow. 11) Pontlyfni: When I picked up the fragment of metal, or whatever it is, it was warm in my hand. 12) Rowton: It is, moreover, stated that when Mr. Brooks found the mass "it was quite warm." 13) Tsukuba: Seconds later student Ryutaro Araki stopped to retrieve a still-warm stone that had fallen in front of his car near Tsukuba 14) Wold Cottage: Rushing to the spot he found a large stone, warm and smoking and smelling of sulfur. 15) Crumlin: When dug
Re: [meteorite-list] Cometary meteorites
Hi, E.P., Jason, List, Jason, this is no criticism of you, because you are indeed re-iterating orthodoxy, but the notion that comets FORMED in the Kuiper Belt put of pure ice (which you seem to imply) is absurd. Let's define that zone as between 40 AU and 50 AU. the area of such a zone is ~2800 square AU (a new unit). Let's bias the assumptions in your favor by saying that that zone is only 10 AU thick (even though the inclination of object there demands a much thicker "zone" of accretion. That gives us 28,000 cubic AU's (another new unit). Is that much volume? Only 8 x 10^23 cubic miles (too old to use kilometers). OK, we start with a mere 800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic miles filled with a sufficient density of ice and dust to accrete into the Kuiper Belt objects, the ejected long period comets, Pluto, Eris and the rest. Who are you kidding? Orbital velocities at 40 AU are slow -- 2800 m/s at Pluto and slower still as you move out. How long does each icy particle 5mm in diameter have to cruise slowly through that 800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic miles before it meets another icy particle and accretes? Houston, we have a problem... For comparison the accretion zone of the Earth, generously defined, is about 20 cubic AU's. The density of the "nebula" at 40 AU and 10 AU thick would be 1/160,000th of the peak density at 1 AU and 0.1 thick. Another problem is that water vapor at very low partial pressures condenses directly into ice at about 160 degrees K. For the Kuiper Belt to be warm enough to support water vapor at that distance, early solar output would have to more than 250 times the present solar output. Oh, heck, let's worry about that later and just stick to making accretion happen. What variables can we manipulate to make accretion happen? Well, there's density. Let's increase the density 100-fold! Won't do it... How about 500-fold? Don't be silly... What if we stretch time and allow a billion years for these objects to accrete? And increase the density to insane levels? Nope. We have the same problem with Uranus and Neptune. No reasonable model can account for them unless you have'em take 800 million years to accrete AND have it happen closer in and then migrate out. We even have a mild problem with accounting for Saturn. Orbital migration is the only way out. There are problems like this through the solar system. The only way to account for iron asteroids (over 80 separate compositions) in the Main belt is to explain them as having formed very near to the Sun and get tossed out there. THAT models successfully. The Tossing Solution works to resolve the problems with Uranus and Neptune which are after all mostly rocky bodies with dense atmospheres. It explains Pluto, Eris, and Haumea, the last two of which are as dense as our own Moon. It's a theory. "Formed in place" is a theory, too, albeit a much more ridiculous one. I even have a theory of my own with Jupiter trying to spiral in closer to the Sun and tossing everything in its way "out there" -- planets, comets, dwarves, you name it. But... they're all theories, and they're all inadequate. What we really have is ignorance. That is a wonderful thing because we retain the fun of finding out. But there's no certainty about composition. The paper you cite (which BTW suggests a formation nebular density they place between Jupiter and Saturn, depending on which current model you like) details the formation of the "ices," yes, but that says nothing about whatever other components there may or may not be present at the birth. And that's the essential issue. I seem to recall seeing lots of "rocky stuff" in that solar neighborhood. How would a body that is only ices form there? Are there any examples of purely icy bodies left behind there? Well, yeah... Tethys, Mimas, Miranda, Rhea, Iapetus, Proteus (maybe). All low enough in density to be just ices and nothing else, most associated with low-density Saturn (which has a plentiful supply of ices to make'em with, for some reason). That's out of a hundred candidates. Anything with a density of around 2.0 is half-rock, half-ice, more or less (Ceres, Pluto, and a long list). It's the median group and the most common, and there are some clearly rocky bodies, though fewer. Roughly, it's a range of normal distribution between ice and rock. IF comets formed in that Jupiter-Saturn region, then they almost certainly have a similar distribution of compositions. Any certainty? No. It's a mystery. We'll just have to catch a few comets and take'em apart to find out. Sterling K. Webb (with nothing better to do at three ayem) -- - Original Message - From: "Jason Utas" To: "Meteorite-list" Sent: Wednesday, N
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Astrobiology News Conference scooped by UKSun?
Hi, Rob, List, The experiements with Mono Lake organisms are essentially this: you collect a buncha them in Mono water, then you both add more arsenic and remove all the phosphorus, while heavily feeding the critters, until you end up with arsenic saturation and phosporus absence. Lots of species die, but a few flourish. Eventually, you should have The One. Whether or not it is significant depends entirely on HOW different it is. If it has a vast reportoire of special enzymes that shuffle the arsenic into harmless paths, it's clever but it's Earth Life As We Know It. On the other hand, if it uses ATA instead of ATP and more importantly if its genetic molecule does not have phosphates in its nucleotide backbone... well, is that even "DNA"? The answer is in the genes. If they are comparable to other becteria genomes, then we have Weird Life. If they are different and incomprehensible (at first), we may have Other Life. Whether that would be a very early split in one lineage, or two lineages... well, that's the question, isn't it? Here we are, gazing back fondly to our first primitive ancestor, and at the same time, somebody is throwing their own Creation of Life over in the next county... That would be news. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Matson, Robert D." To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:16 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Astrobiology News Conference scooped by UKSun? Hopefully *this* isn't the extent of the NASA news: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3253913/NASA-researchers-find- life-in-poisonous-arsenic-lake-in-USA.html http://www.geekosystem.com/nasa-press-conference-arsenic/ --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MOLDAVITE COLORS
Hi, List, and Mike Gilmer who asked originally, Yes, Mike, it is the iron. Moldavites are high in Si02, usually close to 80%. that is, they have a higher "glass" content and fewer "minerals." The most common other ingredient is Al203, from 8% to 10%. Fe0 makes up only 1% to 2%, and it is this iron-poor recipe that makes them green and gem-like. Moldavites range in color from a very pale green to a brown that can be as dark as a light Indochinite. The color is determined by an increase in the ratio of trivalent iron over bivalent iron over the range of the green-to-brown spectrum. The index of refraction and the density increases in the same way. Almost every type of splash-form known from the Australo-Asian strewnfield are found in moldavites as well, but "drops" and "dumbbells" are rare. There are Muong-Nong moldavites found in the Budejovice region, but no aerodynamic buttons have ever been found. Moldavites have many forms unique to them, like the "leaf" type. Moldavites frequently contain trains of gas bubbles, Occasionally, a two-colored moldavite is found, formed when two plastic moldavites collided in flight and stuck together. And Bog Haag has the one and only known YELLOW one. And while I typed this and checked the figures, the question was answered already... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Chris Spratt" To: Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mineral responsible for green color inMoldavite? I think it may be a form of Beryilium or Beryl. Chris. Spratt Victoria, BC __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fw: MOLDAVITE COLORS
I'm assuming that Tomek does not mind my forwarding his email to the List. If Norm Lehrman says it ain't a tektite... it ain't a tektite! I rather imagine that's who Bob would check a tektite with. I certainly would. I took the reference to it from Guy Heinen's book, which was published in 1998, probably well before the true identity of the yellow "moldavite" was known. I posted this once before, but it fits here: One of the best sources for extensive information about any resource unique to (mostly) one country is that county's Geological Survey, in this case this: http://www.geology.cz/bulletin/contents/2002/vol77no4/04trnkafinal.pdf It's Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Moldavites But Were Afraid To Ask... And this: http://www.geology.cz/bulletin/contents/2002/vol77no4/05artemievafinal.pdf And... Wait! There's a whole page of these things. Just go to: http://www.geology.cz/ and browse for publications (they're mostly in English). Or Google "Czech Geological Survey" and expand the results. Sterling K. Webb ------ - Original Message - From: "tomasir" To: "Sterling K. Webb" Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] MOLDAVITE COLORS Hello, regarding Robert's yellow moldavite: Also, Robert Haag has a celebrated yellow 'moldavite' that is "right" in every (visual) aspect except tektitic origin it is man-made ancient glass. Not sure whether it is true or not (source: http://www.tektitesource.com/Tektite_tests.html ) regards tomasir Uzytkownik napisal(a): From: Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] MOLDAVITE COLORS To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Hi, List, and Mike Gilmer who asked originally, Yes, Mike, it is the iron. Moldavites are high in Si02, usually close to 80%. that is, they have a higher "glass" content and fewer "minerals." The most common other ingredient is Al203, from 8% to 10%. Fe0 makes up only 1% to 2%, and it is this iron-poor recipe that makes them green and gem-like. Moldavites range in color from a very pale green to a brown that can be as dark as a light Indochinite. The color is determined by an increase in the ratio of trivalent iron over bivalent iron over the range of the green-to-brown spectrum. The index of refraction and the density increases in the same way. Almost every type of splash-form known from the Australo-Asian strewnfield are found in moldavites as well, but "drops" and "dumbbells" are rare. There are Muong-Nong moldavites found in the Budejovice region, but no aerodynamic buttons have ever been found. Moldavites have many forms unique to them, like the "leaf" type. Moldavites frequently contain trains of gas bubbles, Occasionally, a two-colored moldavite is found, formed when two plastic moldavites collided in flight and stuck together. And Bog Haag has the one and only known YELLOW one. And while I typed this and checked the figures, the question was answered already... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Chris Spratt" To: Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mineral responsible for green color inMoldavite? >I think it may be a form of Beryilium or Beryl. > > Chris. Spratt > Victoria, BC > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Ksiegowa radzi: Jak zalozyc firme w 15 minut? Sprawdz bezplatnie! http://linkint.pl/f2886 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New kind of moon rock identified.
IDENTIFICATION OF A NEW SPINEL-RICH LUNAR ROCK TYPE BY THE MOON MINERALOGY MAPPER (M3) CM Pieters, J Boardman, B Buratti, R Clark, JP Combe, R Green, JN Goswami6 JW Head III, M Hicks, P Isaacson, R Klima, G Kramer, K Kumar, S Lundeen, E Malaret, TB McCord, J Mustard, J Nettles, N Petro, C Runyon, M Staid, J Sunshine, LA Taylor, K Thaisen, S Tompkins, P Varanasi, Dept. Geological Sciences, Brown Univ., Providence, RI 02912 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2010/pdf/1854.pdf Don't know I'd trust it... NOT ENOUGH authors! Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Howard Wu" To: "meteorite list" Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 9:50 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] New kind of moon rock identified. Anybody know anything about this? http://www.space-travel.com/reports/New_type_of_moon_rock_identified_999.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Geminid Meteor Shower Count
McCartney, List, There have been sightings of the Aurora Borealis in Texas, following sufficiently strong geomagnetic storms. The most recent observations of large-scale southern excursions of the aurora occurred on August 14, 2000: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/aurora_sightings_000814.html "The most southerly sightings in the Northern Hemisphere of the aurora borealis were from El Paso and Seminole, Texas, about 32 degrees north latitude; Lubbock, Texas and Anza, California, 33 degrees; Wrightwood, California, 34 degrees; Las Vegas, Nevada and Harrison, Arkansas, 36 degrees; Rio Rancho, New Mexico, roughly 35 or 36 degrees; Stokesville, Virginia, 38 degrees; Lucas Point Park, Kansas, 39 degrees; Fillmore, Utah, 38 degrees along with Emerald, Nebraska, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Champaign, Illinois at 40 degrees north.." I've seen it just once (in many years) from 38° 56' N. That's easier than Austin (30° 15' N). The Great Aurora of September 1-2, 1859 was seen in Hawaii (20 degrees N.) Rome, and Havana, Cuba! In New England, the induced current was so strong that "they could disconnect their telegraphs from their power and still operate on solar storm energy alone." http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/perfect_space_storm.html There was hope for Texas auroras in early August, 2010, after a major geomagnetic storm but I can find no confirmed observations from that date. There was a recent very major eruption on the Sun (although not "aimed" at Earth), but your observations are in no way "impossible." There may be more to come... Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "McCartney Taylor" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Geminid Meteor Shower Count I swore I saw a faint and brief (1-2 sec) aurora borealis last night. But this is Austin, Texas and they never get down this far. Did anyone else see it? odd odd. -mt __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Good read about the moon being captured byEarth
Hi, First of all, I think that Capture Phobia (fear that a planet might capture a satellite) is essentially irrational. It is clear that such a thing can (and HAS) happened: No one thinks that Deimos and Phobos were formed "along with" Mars (in place). They're Captures. There is little doubt or discussion that RETROGRADE satellites are Captures. These include Triton, the 15th largest body in the solar system, 20% bigger than Pluto. Capture. When it comes to the large planets and their satellites, the convention is to blithely assert they were "formed in place." Miniature solar systems with their own miniature solar system formation? Show me the model for that process. Well, the truth is that no one has been able to successfully model that assumption. It is a dead fish of an idea that nobody sniffs. So, we really don't know how the MAJORITY of solar system satellites got where they're at. We DO assume they've been there, with their planets, for a very long time, since the early system. So, how DO you get small rocky satellites to form around a Gas Giant AFTER every- thing, including gasses, has already been swept up? I have cited Malcuit in various List posts over the decade. I dug them out but most of the old links are Kaput. I suggest you look at his home page at Denison University: http://www.denison.edu/academics/departments/geosciences/malcuit_r.html He discusses his work and lists publications... but link-free. There's a section on the "Cool Early Earth" and whether it's a problem for his simulations. Malcuit has spent most of his calculation on the heat generated and how it's dispersed and by which body, and whether a "cool" capture is easier than a "hot" one, the role of a planet's "viscosity" in dissipating the energy of capture... Why don't you read the page? Capture theory doesn't address the identical oxygen isotope ratios shared by Terra and Luna. Nor our 23° axis tilt. Again, all oxygen isotope ratios tell you is that Earth and Moon formed in a similar accretion zone, but we know that. It has no effect on whether it's a Crash or a Catch. I don't get the link between tilt and capture. True, a satellite restrains axial tilt from wider swings, but what has that got to do with how you got the satellite? And, quite a part from Malcuit's studies of Capture, there are other ways a planet can grab itself a moon. The hardest thing to believe about the "Luna bangs into the Earth and gets Caught" theory, is that it HAS to be a gentle smack, hardly more than a graze. Impacts in general are NOT gentle. There is one way to get a graze, though. If two bodies accrete in a very similar orbit, the larger will usually eject the smaller, UNLESS the smaller can slip into a Trojan position in the orbit. However, if it keeps accreting (or is big enough at the beginning), it will be perturbed into oscillating back and forth, approaching the larger body and finally "sliding" up the orbit to a "gentle" collision with it. That's kind of a Crash and kind of a Capture, with relative velocities of only 100's of m/s. Of course, even the "slowest" touch of planetary bodies will disrupt them. But it might explain the Earth-Moon Double Planet. See, a whole NEW Crazy Theory! Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "MEM" To: "Greg Catterton" ; Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Good read about the moon being captured byEarth - Original Message From: Greg Catterton Subject: [meteorite-list] Good read about the moon being captured by Earth about a year old but a good read and something to consider. I think this theory is more plausible also. Maybe the moon was hit and knocked towards Earth and was captured. Yeah...BUT.Capture theory doesn't address the identical oxygen isotope ratios shared by Terra and Luna. Nor our 23° axis tilt. Nor the migration dynamics to move .88 AU in 100 million years to be in place for the capture. According to the article, Malcuit has been working on this for several decades. While Malcuit wasn't looking up from his desk, he may have missed the little isotope-ratio "thingy". While some rocks in Australia were dated to 4.0±.03 billion, the claim for the oldest earth rocks dated were in the range of 3.8-4.3 billion( a one half billion error margin) leaving 400-500million years for the surface to re-congeal--which the author doesn't think is adequate. The wack obviously would have excavated some of the mantle but not necessarily the core. I haven't seen the math, so I don't know if the envelope of possibilities allow for some deep-crust plutons to have avoided being disrupted. Maybe we need
Re: [meteorite-list] eclipse is underway....
Eclipse On Demand: I have cloud cover so thick there wasn't even a bright spot behind the clouds. Might as well be no Moon at all. I Googled up long list of live streaming eclipse feeds. Every one timed out, failed to connect, server cannot find. Guess it's Supply and Demand: more eclipse watching than there is eclipse to go around. Open Google Earth. Switch to Google Sky. Open list of Layers. Uncheck everything but SLOOH camera. Double-click SLOOH layer. You get a box with live camera B&W image of Moon about the size of my thumbnail, little smaller. Very abstract, but live... Double- click on SLOOH image, you get a blank screen which will refresh eventually with a still image. The image can then be re-opened in Firefox from a tab inside the Google Earth window (upper right). Hey! The image is almost 3" across and refreshes periodically, but eclipses don't race anyway. Still pretty abstract, but it's warmer than real thing. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Ed Deckert" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:59 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] eclipse is underway Hello Michael, Please enjoy the eclipse for me too. All I can see here is a bright, fuzzy ball that is missing a significant chunk. That's what I have to look at, courtesy of our steadily building cloud cover here. Sigh... Best! Ed - Original Message - From: "michael cottingham" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:47 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] eclipse is underway Hello, Clear skies... 40 degrees F... eclipse is underway and beautiful... Happy Solstice! Best Wishes Michael Cottingham __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Fw: the word "meteorite" in other languages (arabic?)
Language list for "meteorite"? It was at this link: http://meteoritesjapan.com/metdict.aspx which was posted on: http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/ However the link is dead (404 Not Found) Dirk, where'd it go? There is a list of the term in many languages on lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot There's one list of terms at the bottom of this page: http://www.tititudorancea.com/z/meteorite.htm I can't paste the list in here as it won't go into plain text Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "m42protosun" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 6:46 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] the word "meteorite" in other languages (arabic?) Hello met friends, as I remember, in earlier discussions the word "meteorite" was collected in all languages. Who can tell me where I can found this collection? regards Uwe m42protosun Postfach fast voll? Jetzt kostenlos E-Mail Adresse @t-online.de sichern und endlich Platz für tausende Mails haben. http://www.t-online.de/email-kostenlos __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA's Kepler Mission Discovers Its First RockyPlanet
This is the top item on a list of Kepler "hits" waiting to be verified by ground-based telescopes. The list is roughly 700 "hits" long and we can expect a minimum of 500 to be confirmed. There are more hits in the data being teased out, so we can expect a flood of planets to be slowly confirmed and dribbled out. Planet-O-Rama! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Meteorites USA" To: "Meteorite-list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 1:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA's Kepler Mission Discovers Its First RockyPlanet http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-007&cid=release_2011-007&msource=11007&tr=y&auid=7605855 Not in the habitable zone, and 20 times closer to the Kepler 10 star than Mercury is to our Sun, but it is 1.4 times the size of Earth which is the smallest planet ever discovered outside our solar system. Way cool! Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA's Kepler Mission Discovers Its First RockyPlanet
Larry, and interested Listees,
Thank you for the word straight from the
AAS horse's mouth!
For those interested, the Kepler-10 star is a
spectral type G star, with a mass of 0.895 ± 0.6
solar masses, a radius of 1.056 ± 0.021 times the
Sun's radius, a temperature of 5627 ± 44 K. The
metallicity of [Fe/H] is ?0.15 ± 0.04. It's an old
Population II star at 11.9 ± 4.5 billion years old.
That's really old.
the star it orbits (and thus the star
system) is iron poor relative to the Sun...
With a metallicity of -0.15, I make that out as
10^-0.15 = 0.708 of the Fe/H ratio of our Sun.
I wouldn't call that so iron-poor as to be below
the iron poverty line. For a star with 90% of the
mass of the Sun, it has more than enough iron
to whip up a few planets. That star may have had
to dig deeper into its pockets to create an iron
planet, but I think it could have it.
Of course, I will admit to a certain fondness for
an iron planet since I predicted them back during
the IAU Planet Fuss. There are only four things
you can make a planet out of: iron, rock, low-weight
volatiles ("gas") and high weight volatiles ("ice").
And we have a sample of all the possible planetary
types except the solid-iron-ball planet.
And... if you're really feeing fanciful, the surface
temperature of Kepler 10b is about 1600 C., or
hot enough to melt gold. How about a solid iron
planet with 12 billion-year-old impact basins and
long wrinkle-ridges of mountain ranges that are
lapped by vast and rolling oceans of molten gold,
with the mountainous tides of the close star
washing the gold seas over the landscape?
Now, that's an alien planet! Although I'll grant
you an ocean of molten aluminum is more likely
(but not as picturesque), or a blend of many heavy
metals.
It's worth mentioning that there is another
Kepler candidate around this star. It has not yet
been confirmed. 10c is planet orbiting at 0.24 AU
with a period of 45.3 days. It has a poorly
constrained mass (less than 20 Earth masses)
and a diameter of about 5000 km. We need to
get the seismic data from the star sorted out to
get a mass figure. I suspect that there are more
planetary signatures to be found from ground-
based observations.
Such an interesting universe!
Sterling K. Webb
------
- Original Message -
From:
To: "Sterling K. Webb"
Cc: "Meteorite-list"
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA's Kepler Mission Discovers Its First
RockyPlanet
Hi Everyone:
An update. Geoff Marcy gave an invited talk this evening at the
meeting I
am at (American Astronomical Society). The density of the "new" planet
is
8.8 +/_ 2.5 g/cc (iron meteorites are 7-8). The large uncertainty (not
bad
given the size of the object) implies that the planet can be anywhere
from
a more compressed "Earth" (similar composition, but denser due to
greater
mass) to an object made up of 75% iron (closer to Mercury in
composition).
I find that interesting given that the star it orbits (and thus the
star
system) is iron poor relative to the Sun. There is something new every
day!
Larry
This is the top item on a list of Kepler "hits" waiting
to be verified by ground-based telescopes. The list is
roughly 700 "hits" long and we can expect a minimum
of 500 to be confirmed.
There are more hits in the data being teased out,
so we can expect a flood of planets to be slowly confirmed
and dribbled out. Planet-O-Rama!
Sterling K. Webb
--
- Original Message -
From: "Meteorites USA"
To: "Meteorite-list"
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 1:28 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA's Kepler Mission Discovers Its First
RockyPlanet
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-007&cid=release_2011-007&msource=11007&tr=y&auid=7605855
Not in the habitable zone, and 20 times closer to the Kepler 10 star
than Mercury is to our Sun, but it is 1.4 times the size of Earth
which is the smallest planet ever discovered outside our solar
system.
Way cool!
Regards,
Eric
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Re: [meteorite-list] NASA's Kepler Mission Discovers Its First RockyPlanet
Larry, and the Listoids, All this talk of "compression" induced an involuntary Google Storm on the compressibility of iron. Here's what I found. At the Earth's core, the pressure is 330 to 360 gigapascals (330 to 360 atm). In a 1.4 Earth mass planet, the pressures would be still be far from a terapascal (1000 gigapascals). For Kepler 10b we only need 500 gigapascal results, at most, but the only published data I could find was for multi-terapascal pressures induced by shock waves. Seems everyone wants to get up into the "teras" in THEIR experiments! http://iopscience.iop.org/0953-8984/21/45/452205/pdf/0953-8984_21_45_452205.pdf At low pressure, the density of cubic lattice crystals of iron is 7.875 and of FeNi, it's 7.884 to 7.860. At 100 gigapascals pressure, iron shifts to hexagonal close- packed crystals with a density of 8.320 (an increase of 5.561% in density) and FeNi to 8.330 (an increase of 5.98%). in the range of 400-500 gigapascals. This doesn't even get us to 8.8. If you want to really compress iron, try the inside of Jupiter at about 4-5 terapascals; the density will go up 15%! to about 9.0 for iron, which will stay in the hexagonal close- packed phase up to... 10 or 15 terapascals? So, at the most, we only get that 6% increase in iron density inside Kepler 10b. The freezing point of iron goes up with pressure, which is why the Earth's core is solid though hot. There is an eminently reasonable theory that our solid core "froze out" of an originally liquid core. Some folks think it took 2 billion years to get a frozen core and other folks think it didn't get there until a half billion years or so ago and point to all the interesting changes in the planet 650 million years ago. But Kepler 10b has had 12 billion years for its core to cool down and "freeze." Despite its size, by now its core could be solid and perhaps even in equilibrium with that 1600 C. surface temperature. At any rate, it doesn't seem that simple squishing (I mean gravitational compression) of an iron planet would get us up to a density of 8.8. Yes, error bars, but the middle of the error bars is the safest place to walk. Rock couldn't compress enough, so we're left with the denser heavy metals to add a little density. A large solid core with a thin liquid iron layer acting as an athenosphere at the base of an iron crust, topped with dense alloy solids and then... oceans. I count 35 naturally occurring elements denser than iron (up to densities of 22.6). Some elements would easy mix with the iron (like its favorite nickel at 8.92 density) but many would not. The one thing I'm sure of? No volatiles... Sometimes I feel embarrassed like I'm cooking up a planet with liquid bromine oceans or something, but a planet in this density range just has to be largely iron as nothing else is as cosmically abundant. Still, those error bars run from a 6.30 density planet to 11.3 density; that covers a lot of ground. At a density of 6.30, it could just be a Super- Mercury. At a density of 11.30, it would have to be odd and compositionally unlikely. Refining the measurement of the tidal radial velocity of the star will sharpen that right up eventually, won't it? Sterling K. Webb More Refs. Other metals are more compressible than itron: http://www.jetpletters.ac.ru/ps/1218/article_18419.pdf Tantalum will go up to a density of 40! Iron compressed without shock: https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/333066.pdf ------- - Original Message - From: To: "Sterling K. Webb" Cc: "Meteorites USA" ; "Meteorite-list" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA's Kepler Mission Discovers Its First RockyPlanet Hi Everyone: An update. Geoff Marcy gave an invited talk this evening at the meeting I am at (American Astronomical Society). The density of the "new" planet is 8.8 +/_ 2.5 g/cc (iron meteorites are 7-8). The large uncertainty (not bad given the size of the object) implies that the planet can be anywhere from a more compressed "Earth" (similar composition, but denser due to greater mass) to an object made up of 75% iron (closer to Mercury in composition). I find that interesting given that the star it orbits (and thus the star system) is iron poor relative to the Sun. There is something new every day! Larry This is the top item on a list of Kepler "hits" waiting to be verified by ground-based telescopes. The list is roughly 700 "hits" long and we can expect a minimum of 500 to be confirmed. There are more hits in the data being teased out, so we can expect a flood of planets to be slowly confirmed and dribbled out. Planet-O-Rama! Ster
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Bolidc: The term was first used, in the French language, in 1834. The French is derived from classical Latin bolis (generally bolidis), fiery meteor, originally from the classical Greek, βολις, missile, arrow, or flash of lightning, akin to ballein, to throw. Definition: a brilliant meteor with a magnitude exceeding -4, especially one that explodes; a very bright fireball. Most dictionary definitions mention explosion or fragmentation. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Chris Peterson" To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Most researchers I know consider the body to be a meteoroid while it is in its meteor phase. The term "meteoroid" is used to specifically identify the body, and distinguish it from the meteor effect. It is also common, and IMO correct, to talk of a meteorite before it hits the ground. Once the meteor phase has ended, surviving material will become meteorites, and may quite acceptably be called such (as in discussing "the dark flight phase of a meteorite"). Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Walter Branch" To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 4:13 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term "meteor" refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 (term: bolides)
Hi, List I award Geekly Martin (his name for himself) the Palm for metoritic scholarship. All I did was look at dictionary definitions and took from the Merriam-Webster "first known use: 1834" given by a synopsis of many dictionaries and encyclopedias: http://www.memidex.com/bolide Dictionary scholarship is no match for yours. Obviously, the term bolide has a long historical usage even if the IAU does not consider it a definable term. Big bright fragmenters or bursters would qualify as "bolides" and will likely still be called that for some time to come.. Thanks for the information! Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Martin Altmann" To: Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 (term: bolides) Hi Sterling and Chris, Bolis, bolide ist he classical term for the FIERY ones among the four classes of meteors as atmospheric phenomena (would have to look, I guess, should be from Aristotle or maybe one could check Plinius for the term). Note, that Chladni's pioneering work was therefore also titled: "Ueber FEUERmeteore" About fiery meteors (and the masses, which fall with them). Thus, it's a scientific term and much longer in use, as one supposes. Denominating a special class among meteors, the fiery ones. The other three types of meteors according the four elements were the aqueous ones, those of the air (and earthy meteors. Today we're using "meteor" only for the fiery class and there in particular for the atmospheric light phenomen of falling rocks from space. Some older references, only as examples: From John Henry Alsted's famous encyclopedia (1630), there is given the definition of meteors and the synonyms. (Scientiarum omnium Encylopaediae, Vol I, p.31) "37. Meteora vera quotuplicia? Quatuor sunt classes ipsorum. In prima classe sunt meteora ignea, numero XIV videlicet, Fax, Ignis perpendicularis, BOLIS, Capra Saltans,..." (37. How many true meteors are there? There are four classes of them. In the first class there are the fiery meteors, 16 as follows: Flame (or torch), hanging fire, bolide, jumping goat, ) Or another one from Jan Makowsky "Opuscula philosophica omnia" of 1660 (for my friend Andrzej, because Maccovius was born in Powiat Pilski): Volume II., chapter 5: "De Speciebus Meteoris" - about the types of meteors. "III. In aere summo exoriuntur ista Meteora: flamma seu fax, trabs seu ignis perpendicularis, bolis." III. In the highest air originate these meteors: flame or torch, bar or hanging fire, bolide. (...) "Bolis est sumus mediocriter longus; crastoribus partibus, aequaliter cum subtilioribus commixtis constans; qui accensus in summo aere, sursumque volans, teli ardensis, discurrentisque formam refert." Therefore I think, "bolide" has, historically seen at least, the prior rights, as it was a scientific term, much more precise than the more unspecific "meteor", which was a hyperonym for all kinds of atmospheric phenomena. Btw. Bolis has a second, completely different technical meaning. It means also the lead, the plumb line, especially in nautics. Hence - as you already told, "ballein" - something which you throw or drop. Speaking of "ballein", Remember that the Boss of Gods, Zeus Aegis, hurls flashes and throws thunderbolts towards us! (Bolt...Bolid uuuh kitchen-etymology... who knows) Best! Geeky Martin -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Januar 2011 04:04 An: Chris Peterson; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Bolidc: The term was first used, in the French language, in 1834. The French is derived from classical Latin bolis (generally bolidis), fiery meteor, originally from the classical Greek, ß, missile, arrow, or flash of lightning, akin to ballein, to throw. Definition: a brilliant meteor with a magnitude exceeding -4, especially one that explodes; a very bright fireball. Most dictionary definitions mention explosion or fragmentation. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Chris Peterson" To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Most researchers I know consider the body to be a meteoroid while it is in its meteor phase. The term "meteoroid" is used to specifically identify the body, and distinguish it from the meteor effect. It is also common, and IMO correct, to talk of a meteorite
[meteorite-list] Hopper on the Moon
http://www.space.com/10705-private-moon-hopping-robots-funding.html Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Exoplanets Galore!
NASA releases Kepler data: 1200+ candidate planets. 68 are Earth-sized, 288 are super-Earth sized, 622 are similar to Neptune, and 165 are as big as Jupiter. 54 of the candidates orbit in the habitable zone and 1 is smaller than Earth. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704775604576120353796259940.html http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/02/kepler-data-dump/ A list of today's stories. More to come... http://news.google.com/news/more?hl=en&safe=off&q=exoplanets+nasa+kepler+press+conference&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=de78StEa_GiQ1kMFXBy2W1CcNV6PM&ei=PdpJTbSMHMGblgefstwS&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQqgIwAA Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Phobos-Grunt May Crash to Earth on January 15th
I'm thinking a sign with a big down-arrow and attached streamers and party balloons, in my front yard. Sterling - Original Message - From: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" To: "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Phobos-Grunt May Crash to Earth on January 15th Hi List, We now have a garbage dump orbiting Earth, and it's no surprise that we are seeing increased incidents of space junk returning home. For collectors of manmade meteorites and "flown" space artifacts, this will be a bonanza. For the rest of us - look out! Best regards, MikeG PS - 30% OFF sale is now in effect! - use coupon code "bigsale" at checkout. :) -- * Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 1/5/12, Ron Baalke wrote: http://www.space.com/14143-doomed-mars-probe-phobos-grunt-crash-january-15.html Doomed Russian Mars Probe May Crash to Earth on Jan. 15 by Mike Wall space.com 05 January 2012 A failed Russian Mars probe is expected to come crashing back to Earth next weekend, according to news reports. The Phobos-Grunt spacecraft was stranded in Earth orbit shortly after its Nov. 8 launch, and it's been circling lower and lower ever since. Russian space officials now estimate that the probe will meet its fiery demise in Earth's atmosphere next Sunday (Jan. 15). "As of Wednesday morning, the fragments of Phobos-Grunt are expected to fall January 15, 2012," Alexei Zolotukhin, spokesman for Russia's military space forces, told Russian news agencies Wednesday (Jan. 4), according to Agence-France Presse. "The final date could change due to external factors." __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Wanted: Meteorites from Mercury
Hi, You may or may not remember that what made possible the positive identification of Martian meteorites AS Martian meteorites was that we had samples from the Martian surface. No, not rock samples, nor any returned samples, but the isotopic composition of rare gases in the Martian atmosphere, which made a distinctive and unusual signature (particularly for Argon). The SNC's shared this unique signature. It was like a fingerprint. And possible only because we had a lander on the surface.. Mercury has no atmosphere of any consequence and we have no lander there. It's always possible that our present sensing capacity will turn up something as definite, but I can't think of what it could be. Believe me, I've tried. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" To: "Stuart McDaniel" Cc: ; "meteoritelist meteoritelist" Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Wanted: Meteorites from Mercury Hi Pete and List, There is really no evidence that supports the Mercury-angrite connection. However, if a meteorite from Mercury is ever confirmed, it is expected to be similar to angrites. Because angrites are so unusual (in comparison to other meteorites) and they possess properties that would be expected from a Mercury meteorite, they are the leading candidates. But as far as I know, nothing definitive has ever come to light that makes a solid connection between angrites and Mercury (or any other parent body). Best regards, MikeG -- * Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 1/8/12, Stuart McDaniel wrote: That is what was mentioned in the article. Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC Secr., Cleve. Co. Astronomical Society IMCA #9052 http://spacerocks.weebly.com -Original Message- From: Pete Pete Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 3:12 PM To: baa...@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov ; meteoritelist meteoritelist Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Wanted: Meteorites from Mercury Hi, All, I know there's been only scattered remarks about the Messenger mission, but is the current consensus that angrites do not originate from Mercury? Best, Pete From: baa...@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 10:20:11 -0800 Subject: [meteorite-list] Wanted: Meteorites from Mercury http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/Wanted-Meteorites-from-Mercury-136803313.html Wanted: Meteorites from Mercury By Kelly Beatty Sky & Telescope January 6, 2012 During a recent science conference discussing Messenger's results from Mercury, investigator Shoshana Weider (Carnegie Institution of Washington) commented, "Short of landing on the surface, picking up a rock, and bringing it home, the instruments on Messenger that characterize chemistry are the best we're going to get." Well, Shoshana, you might still get to hold such a rock someday. According to a 2008 analysis <http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0801/0801.4038.pdf> by Brett Gladman and Jaime Coffey (University of British Columbia), chunks of Mercury should be lying somewhere on Earth right now. The dynamicists conclude that 2% to 5% of the debris blasted by impacts off the surface of Mercury at or above escape velocity (2.6 miles per second) should reach Earth within 30 million years. Their numbers suggest that Mercurian meteorites should be roughly one third as common as those from Mars, for which the count now stands at 60. Gladman conservatively suggests that at least a half dozen stones should be lying around somewhere on terra firma. Meteorite collectors would value a Mercurian meteorite above all others, likely fetching $5,000 or more per gram, so they've been on the lookout for one. A few years ago, prior to Messenger's arrival, meteoriticists had speculated that the best existing match to Mercury were a rare handful of ancient, basalt-rich stones known as angrites <http://research.jsc.nasa.gov/PDF/Ares-1.pdf>. But even before Messenger's arrival, ground-based astronomers had concluded that Mercurian surface rocks contained very little iron - strange indeed, given that the innermost planet has an iron core that takes up 80% of its diameter and more than half of its volume! "At that time," comments geochemist David Blewett (Applied Physics Laboratory), "people were expecting Mercury to have a composition more like a lower-iron version of the lunar highlands. We now know that it's much different than that." After nearly a yearly scruti
Re: [meteorite-list] Telescope experts
The Vivitar does not take standard eyepieces because of secondary corrective lenses, so you can't use anything but what it comes with. The focuser is just screw-in, screw-out adjustment, very crude. My guess is that it would disappoint you. Small telescopes are rarely worth even their small price. The best buy in a small scope in this price range ($50 + $10 Shipping) is from Orion. It can be found on Amazon at: http://www.amazon.com/FunScope-76mm-Tabletop-Reflector-Telescope/dp/B002JNW734/ref=pd_sim_sbs_p_2 or directly from Orion: http://www.telescope.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=9766&id=cjdf&utm_medium=aff&utm_campaign=commission%2Bjunction&utm_source=CJ Here's a page that reviews the best possible "first scopes" for a variety of budgets: http://www.rocketroberts.com/astro/firstscopes.htm Still, all of them are far better than what Galileo had! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: To: "The List" Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 10:30 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Telescope experts Hello list, Please give me your opinion of this ebay telescope: 140674266720 It is just for casual use, a look at the moon and Planets. I know it's not very expensive, Vivtar lists it for $179 so the Ebay price is very good. Thanks for the input. Pete Shugar __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Adam, List, 100 years from now, we'll be de-orbiting asteroids and moving them into HEO (high Earth Orbit) to chew them up as a resource. 300 years from now, we be in the Zone, dismantling them there, surveying, sampling, coring, lasering... Contaminating. Every REALLY fresh meteorite currently found on Earth now should be curated en vacuo and handled in a reasonably sterile lab manner for the next half-millennium. Why? Because in 500 years, untouched asteroids will become contact-prohibited quarantined nature preserves. Of course, not going to happen... unless a university does it with select specimens. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Adam Hupe" To: "Adam" Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material Hopefully the scientists and curators of the future will be more sample oriented. A meteorite from the asteroid belt, Mars,the Moon or any other yet to be proven locations doesn't care where it lands. A hundred years from now, future stewards of the stones may ask" what the hell were they thinking back then?" Best Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Petition For a Pluto New Horizons Stamp
Hi, The USPS has issued a stamp for the exploration of each and every planet reached by a human spacecraft. By 1991, the only planet not yet explored was Pluto, and they issued a stamp that said "Pluto - Not Yet Explored." Of course, in March 2015, if all goes well, the New Horizons mission will reach Pluto. Don't you think it will deserve a stamp of its own to correct that 1991 stamp when it gets there, in 2015? Since, stamp petitions have to be filed three years in advance of an expected issue date, that means petitions have to be filed by March 13, 2012. You can sign the New Horizons Pluto stamp petition online at: http://www.change.org/petitions/usps-honor-new-horizons-and-the-exploration-of-pluto-with-a-usps-stamp Only takes a second or two... Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Petition For a Pluto New Horizons Stamp
Gary, List, If it's not a planet, why do we call it a dwarf PLANET? Do you refer to everyone you know who is less than five-foot-ten as a "dwarf person"? So-and-so isn't a person; he's a dwarf person? Adjectives do not negate the thing they describe. So, we have dwarf planets, gas planets, rocky planets, etc, but they're ALL planets. I take the IAU at its literal word, not its irrational intent. As far as I am concerned, Pluto is a planet, Ceres is a planet, Eris is a planet, Makemake and Haumea are... You get the idea. Since Vesta (now that we've seen it) probably formed "round" and has been chipped away at ever since, it's a planet (and likely Pallas and Hygeia too). There are at least 23 planets, (despite the eccentric opinions of an Uruguayan cosmologist to whom I would suggest in reply that Brazil is a nation and Uruguay is only a dwarf nation). IAU: "A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (b) is in orbit around a star, and is neither a star nor a satellite of a planet." I would add the phrase "unless distorted by dynamic equilibrium," a condition that unless added would eliminate Jupiter and Saturn and even the Earth as planets! Planet quarrels. Good times... Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Gary K. Foote" To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:55 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Petition For a Pluto New Horizons Stamp But Pluto isn't a planet anymore. Its a dwarf planet. Maybe they'll make really tiny stamps ;) Gary On Wed, February 1, 2012 11:46 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Of course, in March 2015, if all goes well, the New Horizons mission will reach Pluto. Don't you think it will deserve a stamp of its own to correct that 1991 stamp when it gets there, in 2015? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Petition For a Pluto New Horizons Stamp
Phil, Gary, List, Well, they COULD be planets, but we have not been able to determine if they are round enough. We think "probably" but it hasn't been sufficiently studied to be sure. I count Haumea despite the fact that it is multiply elongated. Its density is so high it has to be mostly rock (2.85 +/- 0.3). It has to be reasonably solid or its spin would disrupt it. So it was (likely) spinning as it cooled. That would class it as in a kind of dynamic hydrostatic equilibrium. But, sure, with enough data, we could have 50 or more planets. We do need a size cut-off because some "round" objects are very small. 250 kilometers? Anybody's guess. What's the big deal? Give Pluto the darn (word substituted for a better word) stamp already... Honor the achievement instead of trying to find the littlest kid on the playground to pick on. Not that I accuse anybody of that motive, but to oppose a lousy stamp for a major feat of space exploration (and astronomical discovery) seems, well... petty. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message ----- From: "dorifry" To: "Sterling K. Webb" ; ; "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Petition For a Pluto New Horizons Stamp Hey, watch it, I'm 5' 9 and 3/4"! Seriously though, if you count all the other trans Neptunian objects, such as Charon, Chaos, Deucalion, Huya, Ixion, Makemake, Orcus, Quaoar, Sedna, Varuna and my personal favorite, Rhadamanthus, there are millions of planets. Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" To: ; "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Petition For a Pluto New Horizons Stamp Gary, List, If it's not a planet, why do we call it a dwarf PLANET? Do you refer to everyone you know who is less than five-foot-ten as a "dwarf person"? So-and-so isn't a person; he's a dwarf person? Adjectives do not negate the thing they describe. So, we have dwarf planets, gas planets, rocky planets, etc, but they're ALL planets. I take the IAU at its literal word, not its irrational intent. As far as I am concerned, Pluto is a planet, Ceres is a planet, Eris is a planet, Makemake and Haumea are... You get the idea. Since Vesta (now that we've seen it) probably formed "round" and has been chipped away at ever since, it's a planet (and likely Pallas and Hygeia too). There are at least 23 planets, (despite the eccentric opinions of an Uruguayan cosmologist to whom I would suggest in reply that Brazil is a nation and Uruguay is only a dwarf nation). IAU: "A planet is a celestial body that (a) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape, and (b) is in orbit around a star, and is neither a star nor a satellite of a planet." I would add the phrase "unless distorted by dynamic equilibrium," a condition that unless added would eliminate Jupiter and Saturn and even the Earth as planets! Planet quarrels. Good times... Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Gary K. Foote" To: "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:55 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Petition For a Pluto New Horizons Stamp But Pluto isn't a planet anymore. Its a dwarf planet. Maybe they'll make really tiny stamps ;) Gary On Wed, February 1, 2012 11:46 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Of course, in March 2015, if all goes well, the New Horizons mission will reach Pluto. Don't you think it will deserve a stamp of its own to correct that 1991 stamp when it gets there, in 2015? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012
Ed, Doug, List, A catalogue of the series of Venus transits covering thousands of years can be found at the URL below. Despite often occurring in pairs, each transit in the pair belong to different series: "Thus, the transits of 1518, 1761 and 2004 would belong to one series, while the transits of 1639, 1882 and 2125 would belong to another series. Such transit series are quite long-lived and may last 5,000 years or more. For example, Series 4 (December at Ascending Node) began in -1763 (1764 BCE) and will run through 2854 (a grazing transit) for a total of 20 transits spanning 4617 years." http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/transit/catalog/VenusCatalog.html0 The regularity comes from the almost perfect (but not quite) approach to an 8:5 resonance lock between the Earth and Venus Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "MexicoDoug" To: ; ; Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012 "Mayans / Venus transit ... nor who can recall the last one!." oops ;-0 except for the twin in 2004! -Original Message- From: MexicoDoug To: edeckert ; Meteorite-list Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012 "Maybe the Mayans were right, and 2012 will see us go out in a blaze of meteorite impacts!" Hi Ed, List; Poor Mayans, haven't they suffered enough at the hands of multiple opressors to now be attributed this kooky modern rage. As the most scientifically advanced society in the world of that age, countless unnamed brilliant Mayan scientists and astronomers that 2012 is most sacred because of the transit of Venus on this upcoming June 6, the likes of which no living primate will likely recall when the next opportunity shadows earth, nor who can recall the last one!. They don't make calendars like they used to... Last year my free bank calendar ended in December 2011, but my insurance agent's company was so kind to save the world by giving me a complimentary 2012 calendar to read, buying more time before the whole thing goes *poop* the same way it apparently began ;-) Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Ed Deckert To: drtanuki ; meteorite-list Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012 Hi List, Is it me, or are we seeing lots more activity than usual in recent weeks? Or are we just becoming more aware of these events through the increase in "All Sky" Cameras, and people in general being more inclined to report these things, perhaps knowing more about what they are because of education from shows like "Meteorite Men?" Maybe the Mayans were right, and 2012 will see us go out in a blaze of meteorite impacts! Ed - Original Message - From: "drtanuki" To: Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:46 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012 Dear List, They continue! Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012 http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2012/02/ontario-michigan-ny-pennsylvania-meteor.html Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012
Between the "pairs" of transits eight years apart, there is either 105.5 years or 121.5 years to the next pair (depending on the series). The nest transit after this one is on Dec. 11, 2117. Given our increasing longevity, a toddler of today could well be alive in 2117. http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/transit/catalog/VenusCatalog.html Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Linton Rohr" To: ; "MexicoDoug" Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012 "...the transit of Venus on this upcoming June 6, the likes of which no living primate will likely recall when the next opportunity shadows earth, nor who can recall the last one!" Doug, While you're most certainly correct that none amongst us will see the next one (in 2117), I'm actually old enough to remember the transit of Venus in 2004. ;^) They come in pairs 8 years apart, separated by 105 years. I hope we're all still here in June, to observe this one. One never knows... Best wishes to all, Linton - Original Message - From: "MexicoDoug" To: ; Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario, MI, NY, PA Fireball 6FEB2012 "Maybe the Mayans were right, and 2012 will see us go out in a blaze of meteorite impacts!" Hi Ed, List; Poor Mayans, haven't they suffered enough at the hands of multiple opressors to now be attributed this kooky modern rage. As the most scientifically advanced society in the world of that age, countless unnamed brilliant Mayan scientists and astronomers that 2012 is most sacred because of the transit of Venus on this upcoming June 6, the likes of which no living primate will likely recall when the next opportunity shadows earth, nor who can recall the last one!. They don't make calendars like they used to... Last year my free bank calendar ended in December 2011, but my insurance agent's company was so kind to save the world by giving me a complimentary 2012 calendar to read, buying more time before the whole thing goes *poop* the same way it apparently began ;-) Kindest wishes Doug __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] 2nd Report from Strewnfield in Edgewood Texas
Guys, guys... Fascinated as I am by this frontiership discussion forum (and I am), we seem to gone past the "nobody's- listening-to-anybody" point in the discussion. I make the perfect expert for this dispute because I am not a frontiersman and know nothing about lions, cougars, pards, and whatnot. Knowing nothing, I was forced to GoogleStorm the question of "mountain lion" shoe-size. I quote a University (don't know which one; I forgot to copy the URL): "Mountain lion tracks are generally round with a diameter from 2.75 to 3.75 inches." New Mexico State U, circular 561: "As with other cats, the front foot is the larger, and the toes tend to spread widely when the animal is running. The width of tracks varies from 3 to more than 4 inches..." However, it adds, cats often step in their own prints, with the saller back foot obliterating the front print... Also, one of you is right about smaller wildlife forms in Florida because Florida is effectively a near-island, and there is evolutionary dwarfism, however weak, at work there. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to be at work on iguanas, which really creeped me out the few times I've been in Florida, probably because I live in an iguanaless state (and don't you wish they all were?). So, the catprints are affected by motion, foot placement, whether the cat was sitting, strolling, dancing, or just doing aerobics... Cat tracks present measurement problem: "Mountain lion and grizzly bear researchers jointly recognized the problem of variable track size and tried to develop means of over coming it. During their lion research, Fjelline and Mansfield (1989) developed a method for measuring tracks, we call the minimum outline method." Turns out the FOOT is smaller than the PRINT. Read the rest at: http://www.tracknature.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=F3&Store_Code=IS0034 Sites that show tracks with a ruler laid by are almost exactly 3.0 inches in length and slighly less in width (it was walking or doing aerobics, I guess). Here's TEXAS mountain lions: http://www.wildtrack.org/showcase/developing-species-algorithms/mountain-lion-in-texas.html with tracks just under 3" in length. I thought they grew everything BIG in Texas... Hmmm, maybe somebody's eyes are bigger than their cat. Another site says: "Bobcat tracks are dainty. Mountain lions are heavy and their tracks are as large as a human fist." As if human fists didn't vary widely in size by altitude and gender... A website whose function is to warn you of animal attacks says cougar tracks are over four inches, just in case your ruler isn't elastic enough to stretch that far when affrighted... Can a cougar, lion, catamount or panther have footprints 2.5 to 3.0 inches (estimated) or 2.75" or 3.5" or 4" if they're running, or not, and smaller if they have lived in the Sunshine State long enough? The judges will accept that as a "yes." Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 2nd Report from Strewnfield in Edgewood Texas George, Whether you believe the encounter was a big cat or a pussy cat, is your prerogative, but please don't make me out to be seeing something SCARY and overestimating it's size. It truly was larger than my dog, (Labrador retriever).<< Well Eric...if you are sticking to the cat you seen had a foot print of 2.5 to 3 inches diameter, I can't help but think you had overestimated its size. Nothing to be ashamed of...it happens to the best of us. I don't know how big a black panther foot print should be...if it was one. But I'd suspect that it would probably be similar to a mountain lion of comparable size. I am quite familiar with mountain lion foot prints and a 2.5 to 3 inch diameter foot print seems ridiculously small for these kind of large cats. George __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Faster Than Light Neutrinos?
Remember thos faster-than-light neutrinos? Well, now you can forget about them... http://www.space.com/14654-error-faster-light-neutrinos.html "Those famous neutrinos that appeared to travel faster than light in an Italian experiment last September probably did not do so after all. A faulty connection between a GPS receiver and a computer may be to blame for the mistake. In September, and again in a repeat run in November, scientists on the OPERA team had detected neutrinos travelling from the CERN laboratory in Geneva to the Gran Sasso Laboratory near Rome at what appeared to be a light-speed-shattering pace. The neutrinos completed the trip about 60 nanoseconds faster than a beam of light would have done. Though the physicists felt confident in their experimental setup, they and the rest of the scientific community suspected that the shocking result was probably due to some error, considering that light as the universe's speed limit is a central tenet of Einstein's theory of special relativity. And indeed, in November, another group of physicists also working at Gran Sasso Laboratory demonstrated that the neutrinos in question could not possibly have been traveling faster than light, because if they had, they would have given off a telltale type of radiation, which was not detected. Further complicating matters, even the OPERA scientists couldn't yet explain why the neutrinos clocked in as fast as they did. Now, according to Science Insider, sources familiar with the OPERA experiment say a fiber optic cable connecting a GPS receiver and an electronic card in one of the lab computers was discovered to be loose. (The GPS was used to synchronize the start and arrival times of the neutrinos). Tightening the connection changed the time it took for data to travel the length of the fiber by 60 nanoseconds. Because this data processing time was subtracted from the overall time-of-flight in the neutrino experiment, the correction may explain the seemingly early arrival of the neutrinos. To confirm this hypothesis, the OPERA team will have to repeat their experiment with the fiber optic cable secured. When OPERA announced their results in September, the physicist and TV presenter Jim Al-Khalili of the University of Surrey voiced the incredulity of many in his field when he said that if the results 'prove to be correct and neutrinos have broken the speed of light, I will eat my boxer shorts on live TV.' It looks as if he, for one, has been spared that level of embarrassment." Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] First Meteorite Found in Antarctica?
This link will take you to the PDF directly: http://mawsonshuts.antarctica.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/53914/A.04.01.pdf Read in browser or download... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Peter Scherff" To: "'Meteorite Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] First Meteorite Found in Antarctica? Hi, Still won't work. I guess you will have to type Adelie Land Meteorite in the search box on the link I posted. Peter -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Peter Scherff Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 6:14 PM To: 'Meteorite Mailing List' Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] First Meteorite Found in Antarctica? Hi, Sorry for the bad link. This one should work: http://mawsonshuts.antarctica.gov.au/search?mode=results&queries_keyword_que ry=Adelie+Land+Meteorite&x=13&y=17 Peter -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Peter Scherff Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:57 PM To: 'Meteorite Mailing List' Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] First Meteorite Found in Antarctica? Hi, Here is a link to a pdf of the Adelie Land Meteorite monograph: http://mawsonshuts.antarctica.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/53914/A.04. 01.pdf Peter -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Ron Baalke Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 3:41 PM To: Meteorite Mailing List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] First Meteorite Found in Antarctica? Hi Ingo, I had always thought it was by the Japanese in the 1960's, but I came across this reference in the citation for asteroid 4456 Mawson: Named in memory of Sir Douglas Mawson (1882-1958), Australian geologist and Antarctic explorer. ... During 1907-1909 he took part in the British Antarctic Expedition led by Shackleton, and from 1911 to 1914 he led the Australasian Antarctic Expedition; on the latter was found the "Adelie Land" meteorite, the first to be discovered on the Antarctic continent. This agrees with what you just said. Thanks! Ron Hi Ron! The first meteorite found in Antarctica was Adelie Land (Dec. 5, 1912) found by Francis Howard Bickerton, who was a member of the Astralasien Expedition on that time. Cheers! Ingo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fossilized Fruit or meteorite
Modern figs come from the Middle East, but the belief in these ancient figs maybe a mistake. See: http://waynesword.palomar.edu/Glendive1.htm#fig Spinifructus antiquus is now believedseems to be an extinct palmlike plant and these its endocarps: "Elisabeth McIver (2002) studied these so-called "figs" associated with fossils of Tyrannosaurus rex from southwestern Saskatchewan, Canada. She renamed them Spinifructus antiquus, which means "ancient spiny fruit." The presence of spines on the outer fruit wall of well preserved specimens completely rules out figs. She suggested that they may be from a palm with pear-shaped fruits similar to the genera Astrocaryum, Asterogyne or Barcella." Whatever you've got a fossil of, it looks more like real figs than the Spinifructus antiquus. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Paul Gessler" To: Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 12:38 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fossilized Fruit or meteorite Larry: I don’t think that is a meteorite. But the “flow” lines looked puzzling until I remembered my experience with finding fossilized fruits on the Queen Charlotte Islands in BC. Canada I think it is a fossilized fruit of some sort. Spinifructus antiquus take a look here: sort of like a fig http://www.plantworlds.com/images/800px-Spinifructus_antiquus_fruits_01[1].jpg Still a cool find. Paul Gessler -Original Message- From: Larry Atkins http://s934.photobucket.com/albums/ad190/alienrockfarm/New%20Find%20March%201%202012/ Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4846 - Release Date: 03/02/12 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Solar flares (ot) ? or are ions meteorites?
Hi, List, On the relative strength of solar flares, take a look at: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120315.html In the first photo, you can see that the Vela Pulsar is (as usual) the brightest gamma ray source in the Galaxy. In the second photo, the March 7, 2012 flare from our little Sun outshines it by a factor of almost 100-fold. From the Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "MexicoDoug" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Solar flares (ot) ? or are ions meteorites? Well, if we are talking billions and billions of years, life has certainly taken a few good ones on the chin during that time, and robust as it seems to be, it acts as a unified being, just changing form, where we species are all just incidental cogs climbing a particular hill in a particular moment ... as we see from out extinction. The generalization of 'weak solar flares to do any damage' is a useful tool, but in the real world out there multiplied by billions and billions of years, it's easy to fall into a statistical trap ... Earth represents about one part in 300,000,000,000,000,000,000 of the area at 1 AU. What is the highest intensity solar flare cross sectional area of a powerful finger? Probably very big and delocalized, but if we are talking about the Sun delivering a real, narrow earth-sized punch once every ten years, in 10 billion years, no catastrophic flare impact is likely - another useful tool to think about to better get a handle on this. and billions and billions ... shouldn't be taken too the bit too far IMO. A once in a billion year event can certainly cripple the biosphere and send it in a new direction. Take gamma ray bursts, the bigger brother of solar flares from distant, more powerful sources, which as Chris implies,might be detrimental vs. our Sun's relative burst flux, ... the gamma proton storms realistically could score a direct hit on Earth every billion years and thus are interesting to consider side-by-side or as in some case, alternative, with asteroid impact extinction theories. If a gamma storm hits, everyone flying above 30,000 feet gets to automatically becomes hulky, but the problem isn't confined to the stratosphere. The atmospheric overload would likely initiate a chain of reactions wiping out the ozone layers and take out many species not protected enough or overly sensitive in the ensuing time. Not only that, it would get ... paradoxically dark and acidic and global warming would be history as the surface hit a low temperature. It is quite possible, if not probable, that at least one extinction even was punctuated with a gamma storm like this, which rivaled any doomsday asteroid scenario by playing with similar large scale climate and radiation changes. Back to the billions of years of life vs. the solar flare. I really don't have time to go skiing with some magnetic poles to Antarctica, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to be there while this 'deflection' was in progress ... especially on a big-ozone hole year! Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Chris Peterson To: meteorite-list Sent: Wed, Mar 14, 2012 1:19 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Solar flares (ot) ? or are ions meteorites? Our Sun isn't active enough to produce flares large enough to dangerously irradiate the Earth. If it were, given hundreds of millions of years of land-based life, we almost certainly wouldn't be here. Keep in mind that those CMEs that look so impressive in the videos produce a particle density at the Earth that represents a harder vacuum than can be achieved in a lab, and what's left is effectively blocked by our magnetic field and atmosphere. Other stars are more active, and ours may become so billions of years from now. But at the moment, we're safe (assuming we can recover from having our power grids or satellites knocked out... which are very possible consequences of flares that we know the Sun can produce). Chris *** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com On 3/14/2012 10:58 AM, Steve Dunklee wrote: What level of flare would cause death on earth from radiation and is it possible? like just the flare going in the wrong direction. cheers Steve __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/mete
Re: [meteorite-list] I don't know to start looking........
Pete, List, To find any eclipse in your lifetime, just go to this list of all the eclipses of the twentieth century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_eclipses_in_the_20th_century Click on the small globe icon to the right for a view of the eclipse track on the Earth. Kotzebue? Just grazeed immeduately before sunset by a partial eclipse-- May 9, 1967 A partial annular eclipse, morning of Sept. 11, 1969 This is your baby for Kotzebue. Right smack on the line of totalality in the eclipse of July 10, 1972: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SE1972Jul10T.png Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: To: "The List" Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:43 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] I don't know to start looking Hello list, I don't even know how to beguin this. Sometime between 1967 and 1972 while at an Air Force radar site, there was a complete Solar eclipse that happened at the Kotzebue AFB on the coast of Alaska. I vividly remember the teminator raceing across the tundera toward me. Dogs were barking, chickens squaking and all the animals started to bed down. Then there was the econd terminator, with all the animals going nuts all over again. It was the most thrilling site I've ever seen. Any one that could help me pin down the date and time? Thanls, Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] I don't know to start looking........
Steve, Pete, Kotzebue was on the very edge of the eclipse track. It wouldn't have bee noticeable from there. The pathe of totality never got closer to Kotzebue than Florida. Sterling K. Eebb - Original Message - From: "Steve Dunklee" To: "The List" ; Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] I don't know to start looking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse_of_March_7,_1970 cheers Steve --- On Thu, 3/22/12, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: From: pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com Subject: [meteorite-list] I don't know to start looking To: "The List" Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 3:43 AM Hello list, I don't even know how to beguin this. Sometime between 1967 and 1972 while at an Air Force radar site, there was a complete Solar eclipse that happened at the Kotzebue AFB on the coast of Alaska. I vividly remember the teminator raceing across the tundera toward me. Dogs were barking, chickens squaking and all the animals started to bed down. Then there was the econd terminator, with all the animals going nuts all over again. It was the most thrilling site I've ever seen. Any one that could help me pin down the date and time? Thanls, Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] REPOST: I don't know to start looking........
ALWAYS PROOFREAD EMAIL: Steve, Pete, Kotzebue was on the very edge of the eclipse track. It wouldn't have been noticeable from there. The path of totality never got closer to Kotzebue than Florida. Sterling K. Eebb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] REPOST #2: I don't know to start looking........
ALWAYS PROOFREAD EMAIL TWICE Steve, Pete, Kotzebue was on the very edge of the eclipse track. It wouldn't have been noticeable from there. The path of totality never got closer to Kotzebue than Florida. Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse
Dear Martin, Does the hallucinogenic alkaloid of a toad's skin secretion still have an effect once they are deep-fried? The answer is YES. Bufotenin (also known as bufotenine and cebilcin), or 5-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine (5-HO-DMT or 5-OH-DMT) has a very high boiling point of 320 C. The vapors above or below that temperature are still psychoactively potent, as are the liquid and crystal forms (melts about 146 C). Depending on the mode of administration, bufotenin is more likely to produce dangerous cardiac effects than visions. While it is possible that deep-frying would evaporate the bufotenin and hence remove most of it from the toad's skin, I'd stick with the frogs' legs, if I were you. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "karmaka" To: "MexicoDoug" ; Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Hi Doug, don't worry. You can rely on the fact that if I manage to visit the Toulouse exhibition this summer, I will provide you all with some interesting photos. ;-) As for toads, escargots or anything else that might pour down on me, there is no worry either since I bought THIS at the last art exhibition I visited. FRITTI NIRODA - the METEORITE TRAP made out of baskets for deep fat fryers http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3403/5794279846_b9ab0fc403.jpg http://vimeo.com/24591320 I will carry it on top of a rod instead of a sunshade when being in Toulouse. ;-) I'm a bit worried though... Does the hallucinogenic alkaloid of a toad's skin secretion still have an effect once they are deep-fried? I don't want to be stoned before seeing the stones... Best wishes, Martin Von: MexicoDoug An: karmaka-meteori...@t-online.de, r...@free.fr, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Datum: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 18:15:38 +0200 Dear List, Dr. Mathieu, and Martin; Martin, if you do or anyone does make it there, please remember your friends on the list who won't have the opportunity to vacation or visit the lovely southern latuitudes of France and post us a nice picture for the admiring meteorite-list of this historical group of stones. So much to do on vacation there - see this Toulouse meteorite exhibit, then go to the Space Center and Space City, the Kennedy Space Center analog and lots more, of France. Watch out if you take the low road, as nearby Toulouse was the site of a Toad-storm from an inclement thundering sky, Two shocked horsemen had to put on their overcoats while being Toad-hammered, and gallop out of their as fast as they could, to reach a stage coach also on the way to Toulouse that witnessed the event, saw many small toads still on the unfortunate horsemen's cloaks and when it passed through the spot trampled many thousands of toads of all sizes. (I wonder if the meteorite in any way biased this report?) A rain of escargot snails might have been more comical for France, but maybe they were toads, frogs, whatever -- after all the toadstorm was 1834 and even today frogs and toads are varied and not recognized by science as distinct animals. Fried frogs are a delicious part of French cuisine that is required to try for all Beefeaters attending the exposition ;-) Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: karmaka To: rm31 ; Meteorite-list Sent: Sun, Apr 8, 2012 7:31 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Congratulations, Dr. Mathieu, on having organised this very interesting exhibition. The beautiful city of Toulouse, la « ville rose », is always worth a visit ! I'll try to visit this exhibition this summer! Best wishes Martin Von: r...@free.fr An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Datum: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 13:11:07 +0200 Hi List, I'm pleased to invite you to the conference and exhibition for the bicentenary of the fall of the meteorite of Toulouse, april 10th 1812. The exhibition will remain until september 2nd. This event is the materialization of 2 1/2 year of historical and scientific researches. It benefited from the early support of the Museum of Toulouse (SW France). Most of the main samples of the fall, loaned by the Museums of New York, Chicago, Geneva, London, Vienna, Stockholm, Troyes, Paris, and from the University of Tuebingen will be reunited close to their place of fall, 200 years later to be shown to the public. http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2373/invitationmtoritedetoul.jpg J'ai le plaisir de vous inviter à la conference et a l'exposition qui auront lieu au Museum de Toulouse, en celebration du bicentenaire de la chute de la meteorite dite de "Toulouse", le 10 avril 1812. L'exposition durera j
Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse
Anne, and assorted frog fanciers, While Turkish frogs in France are delicious, I'm sure, there are frog legs nearer to hand, or at least nearer to Colorado (with its very lamentable lack of swamps). The Frog Leg Festival in Fellsmere, Florida, a 4 day event every year in January, has more that 80,000 attendees and serves over 7000 frog leg dinners. You can get frog legs more or less everywhere along the Gulf coast from Florida to Texas, with a certain rivalry between the state of Florida and the environs of New Orleans as to the relative superiority of their respective frog legs Frog legs are available anywhere along the lower and central Mississippi River valley as well. I loan you my gig if you want to get you some... In 1907, James Scott even wrote a Frog Legs Rag, published in St. Louis: http://library.umkc.edu/spec-col/club-kaycee/JAZZNOTE/froglegs.htm Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Anne Black" To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse A few years ago, I had some near Lyon. I was told they came from Turkey. They were quite good, of course with a garlic and white wine sauce. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com Vice-President of IMCA www.IMCA.cc -Original Message- From: Michael Bross To: Sterling K. Webb ; karmaka ; MexicoDoug ; Meteorite-list Sent: Sun, Apr 8, 2012 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Hello Martin, Sterling and all I am not a specialist but French and loving frog legs (with garlic of course) As far as I know, we only eat frog legs, not toad legs. But more importantly, frogs and toads belong, for many years now, to the endangered species list in France, thereby, you will eat frog legs coming from Asia (which are much much bigger and much less tastier... quite disgusting actually) unless you are in one of the few areas where they are not in danger, like in Alsace... and a very very few more ! I would have to check, Toulouse might be one of them, but not sure Anyway... Enjoy your trip to Toulouse, Martin. Michael B. ------ From: "Sterling K. Webb" Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 5:10 PM To: "karmaka" ; "MexicoDoug" ; Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Dear Martin, Does the hallucinogenic alkaloid of a toad's skin secretion still have an effect once they are deep-fried? The answer is YES. Bufotenin (also known as bufotenine and cebilcin), or 5-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine (5-HO-DMT or 5-OH-DMT) has a very high boiling point of 320 C. The vapors above or below that temperature are still psychoactively potent, as are the liquid and crystal forms (melts about 146 C). Depending on the mode of administration, bufotenin is more likely to produce dangerous cardiac effects than visions. While it is possible that deep-frying would evaporate the bufotenin and hence remove most of it from the toad's skin, I'd stick with the frogs' legs, if I were you. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "karmaka" To: "MexicoDoug" ; Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Hi Doug, don't worry. You can rely on the fact that if I manage to visit the Toulouse exhibition this summer, I will provide you all with some interesting photos. ;-) As for toads, escargots or anything else that might pour down on me, there is no worry either since I bought THIS at the last art exhibition I visited. FRITTI NIRODA - the METEORITE TRAP made out of baskets for deep fat fryers http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3403/5794279846_b9ab0fc403.jpg http://vimeo.com/24591320 I will carry it on top of a rod instead of a sunshade when being in Toulouse. ;-) I'm a bit worried though... Does the hallucinogenic alkaloid of a toad's skin secretion still have an effect once they are deep-fried? I don't want to be stoned before seeing the stones... Best wishes, Martin Von: MexicoDoug An: karmaka-meteori...@t-online.de, r...@free.fr, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Datum: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 18:15:38 +0200 Dear List, Dr. Mathieu, and Martin; Martin, if you do or anyone does make it there, please remember your friends on the list who won't have the opportunity to vacation or visit the lovely southern latuitudes of France and post us a nice picture for the admiring meteorite-list of this historical group of stones. So much to do on vacation there - see this Toulouse meteorite exhibit, then go to the Space Center and Space City, the Kennedy Space Cente
Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse
Ed, I can only guess. Perhaps everybody likes a festival, but not everybody likes frog for dinner? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Ed Deckert" To: "Sterling K. Webb" ; ; ; ; ; "Anne Black" Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Sterling, I cannot help but wonder why if there are 80,000 attendees at that frog leg festival, why are only 7,000 frog leg dinners served? Any ideas why? Ed - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" To: ; ; ; ; "Anne Black" Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Anne, and assorted frog fanciers, While Turkish frogs in France are delicious, I'm sure, there are frog legs nearer to hand, or at least nearer to Colorado (with its very lamentable lack of swamps). The Frog Leg Festival in Fellsmere, Florida, a 4 day event every year in January, has more that 80,000 attendees and serves over 7000 frog leg dinners. You can get frog legs more or less everywhere along the Gulf coast from Florida to Texas, with a certain rivalry between the state of Florida and the environs of New Orleans as to the relative superiority of their respective frog legs Frog legs are available anywhere along the lower and central Mississippi River valley as well. I loan you my gig if you want to get you some... In 1907, James Scott even wrote a Frog Legs Rag, published in St. Louis: http://library.umkc.edu/spec-col/club-kaycee/JAZZNOTE/froglegs.htm Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Anne Black" To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse A few years ago, I had some near Lyon. I was told they came from Turkey. They were quite good, of course with a garlic and white wine sauce. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com Vice-President of IMCA www.IMCA.cc -----Original Message- From: Michael Bross To: Sterling K. Webb ; karmaka ; MexicoDoug ; Meteorite-list Sent: Sun, Apr 8, 2012 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Hello Martin, Sterling and all I am not a specialist but French and loving frog legs (with garlic of course) As far as I know, we only eat frog legs, not toad legs. But more importantly, frogs and toads belong, for many years now, to the endangered species list in France, thereby, you will eat frog legs coming from Asia (which are much much bigger and much less tastier... quite disgusting actually) unless you are in one of the few areas where they are not in danger, like in Alsace... and a very very few more ! I would have to check, Toulouse might be one of them, but not sure Anyway... Enjoy your trip to Toulouse, Martin. Michael B. ------ From: "Sterling K. Webb" Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 5:10 PM To: "karmaka" ; "MexicoDoug" ; Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Dear Martin, Does the hallucinogenic alkaloid of a toad's skin secretion still have an effect once they are deep-fried? The answer is YES. Bufotenin (also known as bufotenine and cebilcin), or 5-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine (5-HO-DMT or 5-OH-DMT) has a very high boiling point of 320 C. The vapors above or below that temperature are still psychoactively potent, as are the liquid and crystal forms (melts about 146 C). Depending on the mode of administration, bufotenin is more likely to produce dangerous cardiac effects than visions. While it is possible that deep-frying would evaporate the bufotenin and hence remove most of it from the toad's skin, I'd stick with the frogs' legs, if I were you. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "karmaka" To: "MexicoDoug" ; Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bicentenary of the meteorite of Toulouse Hi Doug, don't worry. You can rely on the fact that if I manage to visit the Toulouse exhibition this summer, I will provide you all with some interesting photos. ;-) As for toads, escargots or anything else that might pour down on me, there is no worry either since I bought THIS at the last art exhibition I visited. FRITTI NIRODA - the METEORITE TRAP made out of baskets for deep fat fryers http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3403/5794279846_b9ab0fc403.jpg http://vimeo.com/24591320 I will carry it on top of a rod instead of a sunshade when being in Toulouse. ;-) I'm a bit worried though... Does the hallucinogenic alkaloid of a toad's skin secretion still have an
Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteorite fallstitle??????
There are some texts at: http://archive.org/search.php?query=Chladni Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Shawn Alan" To: "Meteorite Central" Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:24 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteorite fallstitle?? Hello Listers I am wondering if any of you history meteorite buffs by chance know the name of Chladni's book he wrote on 18 meteorites falls and if there might be an English pdf version floating around on the Internet or somewhere else? Also, I was trying to look for a copy of the paper titled "On Some Stones Allegedly Fallen from the Heaven" published in 1790 by Abbe Andreas Xavier Stutz which Chladni extensively quoted from when he was writing his book. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 ebay Store http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html? http://www.meteoritefalls.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteoritefalls title?????? (Stuetz)
Just another random piece of Chladniania: http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1996M%26PS...31..545M&defaultprint=YES&filetype=.pdf "Ernst florens Friedrich Chladni (1756-1827) and the origins of modern meteorite research," by Ursula B. Marvin, from Meteoritics, Vol. 31, pages 545-588 (1996). Nice. Discusses sources and precursors of Chladni, like the thunderstones piece by Andreas Xavier Stütz. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Chladnis Heirs" To: Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteoritefalls title?? (Stuetz) Hi Shawn, the paper by Andreas Xaver Stuetz, you're looking for, was published in Born's & Trebra's "Bergbaukunde", second volume, 1790. You have it here online: http://kuerzer.de/shawnstuetz Page 398 - 409. In fact he reports there from the fall of Eichstädt, mentions the Pallas-Iron and gives at length a report about the fall of Hraschina - with eyewitness observations, in translating the report about the fall by Wolfgang Kukulyewich, vicar of Agram. Here and there he gives some ironic remarks. Stuetz is classifying these reports as fairy tales, closing the article with a lengthy explanation, that these stones&irons were formed by lightning. Best! Martin & Stefan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. April 2012 10:25 An: Meteorite Central Betreff: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteorite falls title?? Hello Listers I am wondering if any of you history meteorite buffs by chance know the name of Chladni's book he wrote on 18 meteorites falls and if there might be an English pdf version floating around on the Internet or somewhere else? Also, I was trying to look for a copy of the paper titled "On Some Stones Allegedly Fallen from the Heaven" published in 1790 by Abbe Andreas Xavier Stutz which Chladni extensively quoted from when he was writing his book. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 ebay Store http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html? http://www.meteoritefalls.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moon rocks
Hi, Dan, List, "Moon Rocks," meaning pieces of the Moon returned by the space program, are the property of the Nation, which paid about 25 billion 1970 dollars for them. In practical terms, they are "owned" by the government of the United States. No individuals "own" them. But samples of lunar material are loaned to researchers on application and justification for the research proposed and are returned when it is over (unless the testing is destructive, in which case they must be accounted for). "Moon Rocks," in the sense of rocks from the Moon that were brought to Earth by other means than government effort, that is, meteorites, can be owned by anyone willing to pay the price to own them. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "D Miller" To: Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 2:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Moon rocks Can someone please tell me what the government policy is on obtaining moon rocks? I understand that only selected individuals related to the space program are allowed to own them. Dan Miller __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moon rocks
Dan, List, THIS $4.7 million Moon Rock? http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum27/HTML/003260.html As they point out, that $4.7 million is just an opening bid; there is a reserve. But, but on the bright side... Free Shipping! I suppose it would be more or less legal to sell someone a Moon Rock on eBay and when the auction was complete, tell the buyer that his purchase was ON the Moon and all he had to do was to arrange his own shipping or just go pick it up himself... Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "D Miller" To: "Sterling K. Webb" ; Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon rocks Did anyone see the auction on EBay last week for a Moon rock for 4.7 mil. I tried to post here twice. He said he had papers to own I also heard men in suits from NASA may show up at your doorstep if you try to sell them. Sent from T-Mobile G2 with Google "Sterling K. Webb" wrote: Hi, Dan, List, "Moon Rocks," meaning pieces of the Moon returned by the space program, are the property of the Nation, which paid about 25 billion 1970 dollars for them. In practical terms, they are "owned" by the government of the United States. No individuals "own" them. But samples of lunar material are loaned to researchers on application and justification for the research proposed and are returned when it is over (unless the testing is destructive, in which case they must be accounted for). "Moon Rocks," in the sense of rocks from the Moon that were brought to Earth by other means than government effort, that is, meteorites, can be owned by anyone willing to pay the price to own them. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "D Miller" To: Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 2:18 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Moon rocks Can someone please tell me what the government policy is on obtaining moon rocks? I understand that only selected individuals related to the space program are allowed to own them. Dan Miller __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball Over California/Nevada: How Big WasIt?
Stuart, List, The "size of a mini-van" suggests an asteroid with a radius of 3 meters (if spherical). I wouln't call a six-meter asteroid "huge." Further, if it was indeed carbonaceous, it would likely be quite dark and have a low albedo, making its detection even more difficult. It may have been detected regardless of what angle it approached from. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Stuart McDaniel" To: "Ron Baalke" ; "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fireball Over California/Nevada: How Big WasIt? So my question is.why didn't anyone detect this obviously huge meteoroid in space before entry? * Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC Secr., Cleve. Co. Astronomical Society IMCA #9052 Sirius Meteorites Node35 - Sentinel All Sky http://spacerocks.weebly.com * -Original Message- From: Ron Baalke Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 4:40 PM To: Meteorite Mailing List Subject: [meteorite-list] Fireball Over California/Nevada: How Big Was It? http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2012-114 Fireball Over California/Nevada: How Big Was It? Jet Propulsion Laboratory April 24, 2012 A bright ball of light traveling east to west was seen over the skies of central/northern California Sunday morning, April 22. The former space rock-turned-flaming-meteor entered Earth's atmosphere around 8 a.m. PDT. Reports of the fireball have come in from as far north as Sacramento, Calif. and as far east as North Las Vegas, Nev. Bill Cooke of the Meteoroid Environments Office at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala., estimates the object was about the size of a minivan, weighed in at around 154,300 pounds (70 metric tons) and at the time of disintegration released energy equivalent to a 5-kiloton explosion. "Most meteors you see in the night's sky are the size of tiny stones or even grains of sand and their trail lasts all of a second or two," said Don Yeomans of NASA's Near-Earth Object Program Office at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. "Fireballs you can see relatively easily in the daytime and are many times that size - anywhere from a baseball-sized object to something as big as a minivan." Elizabeth Silber of the Meteor Group at the Western University of Canada, Ontario, estimates the location of its explosion in the upper atmosphere above California's Central Valley. Eyewitnesses of this fireball join a relatively exclusive club. "An event of this size might happen about once a year," said Yeomans. "But most of them occur over the ocean or an uninhabited area, so getting to see one is something special." NASA detects, tracks and characterizes asteroids and comets passing close to Earth using both ground- and space-based telescopes. The Near-Earth Object Observations Program, commonly called "Spaceguard," discovers these objects, characterizes a subset of them, and establishes their orbits to determine if any could be potentially hazardous to our planet. JPL manages the Near-Earth Object Program Office for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. JPL is a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. More information about asteroids and near-Earth objects is at: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroidwatch . DC Agle 818-393-9011 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. a...@jpl.nasa.gov 2012-114 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Scoping out search areas
Better take a supply of BLIMP PATCHES! http://www.blimpguys.com/serviceRepair.htm Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Matson, Robert D." To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 5:56 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Scoping out search areas Hi All, As I wrote off-list (and others have mentioned) the ground cover is seasonal, so it's important to have current information in order to scope out the best areas that can be searched most efficiently. Time is their enemy in terms of terrestrialization/rain, so I know Peter wants to recover as much material as possible before it rains any more than it already has. If the rumors of marijuana growing in the area are true, I don't know that I'd want to be flying too low! These airships get bullet holes in them all the time (which is a sad statement about humanity), so it wouldn't surprise me if a few new holes get added over the next couple days. --Rob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Chris Spratt Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 3:43 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite main mass hunting with a blimp Also a good way to spot grow-ops. Chris. Spratt Victoria, BC __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It's a zepplin, not a blimp!
Phil, List, As the sarcastic individual who suggested a need for Blimp Patches, I apologize. It is, literally, a Zeppelin, built by the Zeppelin company in Friedrichshafen, Germany, home of the original Zeppelins. At 246 feet long, she stretches 15 feet longer than a standard Boeing 747 and 50 feet longer than the largest commercial blimps flying today. It is named "Eureka," nicely matching the history of Sutter's Mill. Maybe the name will bring good luck. http://www.airshipventures.com/about Unlike the original Zeppelins, it is a semi-rigid design, lacking a full envelope frame like the old ones. However, it is made of carbon fibre and aluminum, has very sophisticated motive control, with vectored thrust and fly-by-wire controls, and has incredible maneuverability. That said, trying to maneuver close to the ground in that terrain in a weightless craft almost as long as a football field is a daunting prospect. All old airshipmen know the dangers are near the ground, not in the sky. Zeppelin Patches? Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "dorifry" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 12:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] It's a zepplin, not a blimp! Big difference! Stop calling it a blimp please! (LOL) Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] It's a zepplin, not a blimp!
Stuart, List 1. A blimp (technically called a "pressure airship") is a powered, steerable, lighter-than-air vehicle whose shape is maintained by the pressure of the gases within its envelope. A blimp has no rigid internal structure; if a blimp deflates, it loses its shape. 2. A rigid airship has a framework surrounding one or more individual gas cells, and maintains its shape by virtue of its rigid framework and not the pressure of its lifting gas. 3. A zeppelin is a rigid airship manufactured by a particular company, the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin of Germany (the "Zeppelin Airship Construction Company"), which was founded by Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin. 4. A semi-rigid airship, like a blimp, maintains its aerodynamic shape from internal gas pressure, but it has a partial rigid frame, usually in the form of a keel, which supports and distributes loads and provides structural integrity during maneuvering. The modern Zeppelin NT, such as the Eureka, is a semi-rigid airship rather than a blimp. 5. A dirigible is any lighter-than-air craft that is both powered and steerable (as opposed to free floating, like a balloon). Blimps, rigid airships, and semi-rigid airships like the Zeppelin NT are all dirigibles. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: To: ; "dorifry" ; "Sterling K. Webb" Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It's a zepplin, not a blimp! OK, I am goin gto ask the obvious, what is the difference in a blimp and a zep? -- * Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://spacerocks.weebly.com http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 ***** "Sterling K. Webb" wrote: = Phil, List, As the sarcastic individual who suggested a need for Blimp Patches, I apologize. It is, literally, a Zeppelin, built by the Zeppelin company in Friedrichshafen, Germany, home of the original Zeppelins. At 246 feet long, she stretches 15 feet longer than a standard Boeing 747 and 50 feet longer than the largest commercial blimps flying today. It is named "Eureka," nicely matching the history of Sutter's Mill. Maybe the name will bring good luck. http://www.airshipventures.com/about Unlike the original Zeppelins, it is a semi-rigid design, lacking a full envelope frame like the old ones. However, it is made of carbon fibre and aluminum, has very sophisticated motive control, with vectored thrust and fly-by-wire controls, and has incredible maneuverability. That said, trying to maneuver close to the ground in that terrain in a weightless craft almost as long as a football field is a daunting prospect. All old airshipmen know the dangers are near the ground, not in the sky. Zeppelin Patches? Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "dorifry" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 12:14 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] It's a zepplin, not a blimp! Big difference! Stop calling it a blimp please! (LOL) Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Airship Search at Sutter's Mill
Hi, List, Some of the questions about how the airship Eureka will be used to search for meteorites are answered in: http://www.space.com/1-meteorite-fireball-airship-search.html It seems they are looking for "impact craters" from this fresh fall of so-far very small fragments and they will be doing it from an altitude of 1,000 feet. The article says "the scientists spotted 12 possible impact features from the April 22 fall, though they're not sure yet if any of them are the real deal." So, they want to find the Big Rocks, each sitting in their crater nests, possibly surrounded by green Easter Egg grass. My scepticism may be misplaced. If they find 10-kilo CM's in impact pits that way, I'll have to eat my words, possibly served on a bed of green Easter Egg grass. Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Derek on the Dirigible
List, More about the airship search: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120512101025.htm If the camera they show can image a football, presumably it could image a large meteorite. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Kevin Kichinka" To: Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Derek on the Dirigible Team Meteorite: Up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, it's a what? Fly like an eagle. The publisher of Meteorite magazine, Derek Sears, is enjoying the view of the strewn field today from 'up there'. http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-seti-airship-hunt-meteorites-big-fireball-124333005.html Kevin Kichinka Santa Ana, Costa Rica www.theartofcollectingmeteorites.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AIRSHIP VIDEO - search for Sutter's Mill
http://www.space.com/15666-meteorite-fragments-searched-sierra-nevada-mountains-video.html Sterling K. webb - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] AIRSHIP VIDEO - search for Sutter's Mill
Dan, List, That "scope" is the AVS Cineflex HD Video system used for aerial shots of sporting events and the like. I don't know it's ultimate resolving power, but if you can see the football clearly in an aerial shot, presumably you could see a large meteorite, or an impact pit in this search. Here's an AVS video demonstrating the camera system from a fixed wing aircraft, with a 36x1 lens and 2x extender: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIwFEuquEHk It seems a long shot to me. The evidence is that this meteorite is too friable to have left a chunk the size of a football on the ground. Maybe a softball? But it's very difficult to search at that small scale such a vast srea in flights that are only five hours long. Great joyride, though. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Dan Miller To: Sterling K. Webb Cc: Meteorite List Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AIRSHIP VIDEO - search for Sutter's Mill Just how powerful is that scope they are using in the Zeppelin? BTW I was with the team that discovered the specimen on the private ranch. The Zeppelin was not involved in that search Dan On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Sterling K. Webb wrote: http://www.space.com/15666-meteorite-fragments-searched-sierra-nevada-mountains-video.html Sterling K. webb - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer Talk
OMG! It's the Eighties! At Midnight! On the Meteorite List! What's Next? Hot Tub Pool Party? S. K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Shawn Alan" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer Talk Hammer time - you can't touch this :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIHAkqCls4A Shawn Alan ebay Store http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html? http://www.meteoritefalls.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Quickie
Pete, James, Stuart, List Long answer to a quick question. 1. The Moon DOES rotate on its axis. If it didn't, we on the Earth would have a slow month-long changing view of every spot on the Moon. There would be no "near" side and "far" side. If you were looking at what we call the near side tonight, in two weeks you would be looking at the "far" side. The sidereal (with reference to the stars, rotation period of the Moon is 27.321582 days. The orbital period of the Moon is 27.321582 days. In a word, the orbit is synchronous. That's relative to the stellar background. The synodic (relative to the Sun) orbital period of the Moon is different, 29.530589 days. In case that puzzles you, the cause of the difference is explained here: http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question32.html 2. James, the strength of the tides is determined by the Moon's MASS, hence its gravitational influence. Given the same orbit, the tides would be the same whatever the period of rotation, 27 days or 27 hours. Now, you may be referring to the fact that the Moon's center of gravity is displaced toward the Earth slightly, and if it rotated rapidly (or didn't rotate at all), it would slightly alter the gravitational pull and the tidal effect from it, but effect would be incredibly small. The center if gravity is only offset about two kilometers! 3. It has been hypothesized that without our large and prominent satellite, humans would have been a much longer time figuring orbital mechanics. Remember it was idly trying to figure out how fast the Moon was "falling" around the Earth that gave Newton his first push into the theory of gravity while he was back home to avoid the plague while a young student. The Moon's orbit is incredibly complex, full of tilts and wobbles of every kind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon The full calculation of the equation of the Moon's orbit (where it will be at a specific time) is one of the most computationally intensive tasks ever done. Men have devoted their entire working life to it and still not finished the job. The last to do it was E. W. Brown: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_William_Brown 4. But even IF the Moon had a new, non-synchronous rotation, tidal braking would slowly return it to its old synchronous rotational period. OR, if it had no rotation at all, tidal acceleration would spin it up again to the synchronous period. The full mathematical theory of tidal fiiction and the evolution of the lunar orbit was worked out by the XIXth century physicist George Howard Darwin (Charles Darwin's son). Brief explanation here: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=124 5. The strength of tidal forces on the Earth's rotation and the Moon's recession (moving away from the Earth) is more dependent on the shape of the continents, the width of the continental shelves, and the depth of the oceans than any other factor. An Earth with many low-lying continents, broad ocean shelves, and shallow oceans would have been slowed to a "day" much longer than 24 hours by now. And the Moon would have ended up much further away than it is. In the past, the "day" was shorter and the number days in a year much greater than it is now. I appears that at formation, 4.5 billion yars ago, the year was about 800 "days" of nearly 12 hours each: ftp://ftp.ecgs.lu/public/publications/jlg/jlg90/JLG90_Denis.pdf 6. Tides are far from simple. In Tahiti, for example, the actual experienced tides are almost entirely a product of the Sun's gravity. You get a good approximation by ignoring the Moon altogether. There's a high tide at noon and midnight and lows at 6 am and pm. Why? http://tahitiexpeditions.typepad.com/travelblog/2010/07/tides-in-tahiti.html 7. We now have a short list of people on this List with nothing better to do on a Saturday night... I suppose especially me who wrote the longest. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Stuart McDaniel" To: "James Beauchamp" ; Cc: "The List" Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quickie I thought the Moon did rotate?? * Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC Secr., Cleve. Co. Astronomical Society IMCA #9052 Sirius Meteorites Node35 - Sentinel All Sky http://spacerocks.weebly.com * -Original Message- From: James Beauchamp Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 11:31 PM To: Cc: The List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quickie I would say less. The highest density of the moon stays on the earth side now, so the 1/r^2 magnitude of the gravity effect is maximized. If it were rotating, the average pull would always be less than it is now. Sent from my iPhone On Ma
Re: [meteorite-list] Quickie
Jim, List, Whoops! The Sun revolves around the center of our galaxy at about 220 km/sec which suggests a period of about 240,000,000 years. That's the current estimate, although the range of calculated values runs from 225 million years to 250, so the Sun has made 20 orbits so far. Oddly, it's a retrograde (backwards) orbit. What isn't known is the ECCENTRICITY of that orbit. If it's reasonably eccentric, has the Sun plunged down through the Galactic Core region 20 times? The Core is incredibly crowded with stars and dust and molecular clouds and weird sh-..., er, stuff of every kind. It's really crowded in that neighborhood. Look at a picture of a spiral galaxy and you'll see what I mean. The prospect of that particular joyride is a little daunting, at least to me. Every time I read that some geologist or other has detected a 250 million year periodicity in major change on Earth (like orogeny), it bothers me. Now, you know that eight-year-old is going to ask the next question, "What does the Galaxy go around?" The answer is the barycenter of the Local Group, which is itself in orbit around the barycenter of the Virgo Supercluster, which is itself heading a some good speed toward the Great Attractor, about which we know little... or maybe nothing, except it must be a whopper. If he's the eight-year-old I think he is, he will then ask, "Does the Universe go around anything?" Sheesh. In 1949, Kurt Gödel published an exact and perfect alternative solution of Einstein's equations in which the Universe rotates (but doesn't have an axis). It also has a number of other truly spooky properties that give me a headache. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del_metric Since then, others have published other exact and perfect solutions of Einstein's equations all of which show rotation. None of these solutions are testable, at least not so far. But you can cut off the eight-year-old with "The universe is everything there is, so there's nothing else for it to go around." Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Jim Wooddell" To: "Meteorite-List" Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Quickie It was science week at an elementary school. A third grade teacher was teaching the young kids in his class about the solar system. He came in early one day and moved all the desks to the side of the classroom on each wall. He proceeded to set up the sun and planets using various sized styrofoam balls on stands that represented our sun, planets and moons. It took several hours to set up and filled the center of the class room. Later that morning, after the children arrived, he walked around explaining the orbits, and how things worked. Afterwards the children could ask questions. One young girl asked how the moon went around the earth. So he grabbed the moon and showed her how it went around the earth. Another young student asked how the earth went around the sun. So with the help of the young girl the asked the first question, he show the earth going around the sun at the same time the moon was going around the earth! It took some coordination! One of the brighter students then asked the questionif all these planets go around the sun, then what does the sun go around?? The teacher looked around the room, paused and said, "Good Question"! Are we having fun yet? Cheers! Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr.us __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Another Solar System Planet?
Listoids, "A planet four times the size of Earth may be skirting the edges of the solar system beyond Pluto, according to new research. Too distant to be easily spotted by Earth-based telescopes, the unseen planet could be gravitationally tugging on small icy objects past Neptune, helping explain the mystery of those objects' peculiar orbits." In particular, the hypothesized planet accounts for the orbits of the SDO's (Scattered Disc Objects), the biggest of which is Sedna. Other astronomers say the math is sound, but the test is to look for it. This method, in the past, resulted in the discovery of Neptune and Pluto, so stay tuned. Same article in these tow places: http://www.space.com/15822-planet-edge-solar-system.html or http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/22/planet-x-odd-orbits-solar-system_n_1537043.html Sterling K. Webb - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Sutter's Mill BSE - two more
You haven't heard about NWA 7034? Oh, you will... NWA 7034? They can read about it here: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2012/pdf/2690.pdf Sterling K. webb -- - Original Message - From: "Carl Agee" To: "Richard Montgomery" Cc: "meteoritelist meteoritelist" Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Sutter's Mill BSE - two more Hi Richard, I haven't seen a thin section of Sutter's Mill yet, but my guess is that it will be very dark, just like the meteorite, so maybe not that illuminating. I prefer backscatter electron images because they not only show texture, but also image chemical compositional variations. Like the dark olivines in my images?- they are Mg2SiO4-rich, the light shaded olivines are Fe2SiO4-rich. Bright patches indicate high iron or Ti or Cr, and so on. As to the CaO, the electron microprobe does not do carbon very well so it usually comes up with low totals on carbonates. I looked at the data today and we found 4 separate crystals with this composition in one of the small SM sections -- after perusing the CM literature today, I am pretty sure this is calcite or aragonite -- thought by some to form during aqueous alteration and commonly found in CMs. With respect to the classification and type, I will leave that to the unequilibrated chondrite experts like Jeff Grossman and Alan Rubin. MetSoc will be very interesting this year: Tissint, Sutter's Mill, and NWA 7034. You haven't heard about NWA 7034? Oh you will... Carl Agee On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:04 PM, Richard Montgomery wrote: Carl and List, I'm struck by the chondrule variation...can't wait to see a TS (hi Anne!)so it's time to ask about the rabbit hole: As I mentioned I'm just guessing herenot a CM2, due to chondrules actually so present, right? Not a CM3 either (if there ever is such a thing) due to the rim alterations and aqueous stuff; dark matrix like a CM, yet more crowded chondrules; complete CaO crystals; lacking so far of seeing any CAIswhat's your guess at this point?? Next Halloween I can dress up as a petrologist scientistbut won't fool anyone. Fun to speculate, though. Richard M - Original Message - From: "Carl Agee" To: "meteoritelist meteoritelist" ; "Jeff Grossman" Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Sutter's Mill BSE - two more Jeff, You mean the area in the SW quadrant? It's permeated with the bright material? It could be sulfide, but I didn't get a chance to EDS or probe it yesterday. It's all somewhat bewildering, there is so much look at, so I am starting with the simple stuff that give good microprobe totals -- haha!. Beware of this meteorite! Like going down the rabbit hole Carl - Carl, What's the difference between the two lithologies visible in the first of these two photos? Jeff On 5/25/2012 2:19 PM, Carl Agee wrote: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4042491099560&set=a.1076549432872.2012978.1200325441&type=1&ref=nf http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4042494859654&set=a.1076549432872.2012978.1200325441&type=1&ref=nf -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question 1 & 2
Pete, List The Moon BOTH revolves AND rotates One revolution for each rotation; one rotation for each revolution. Synchronous, it's called. The Moon's tides slow the Earth's axial rotation, making the day longer. In the past the day was shorter and the number of days per year was greater Because the angular momentum of the Earth-Moon system must be conserved, the loss of energy from the Earth's rotation is "pumped" into the Moon's orbit causing the Moon to orbit at a greater distance. The Moon slowly recedes from the Earth and is doing so today. It will continue getting further and further away until the Earth either loses the Moon or the Sun eats us both in about five billion years. How fast the Earth rotated when the Moon formed is guesswork (with lots of equations thrown in). 6 hours? 12 hours? How close did the Moon form? Nobody knows, but outside the Roche Limit (about three Earth radii) or it would have broken up from the Earth tides. You shoulda oughta read that Meteorite List: http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg106159.html "The Moon DOES rotate on its axis. If it didn't, we on the Earth would have a slow month-long changing view of every spot on the Moon. There would be no "near" side and "far" side. If you were looking at what we call the near side tonight, in two weeks you would be looking at the "far" side." Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: To: "The List" Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:25 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Question 1 & 2 # 1 Does anyone have the link to the GIF file that showed the ISS assembly from start to finish? # 2 I got the mistake I made clear in my 2 brain cells. The moon does one revolution every month, always presenting the same side to the earth. How long since it stopped it's rotation. Do the science eggheads have any idea how fast it rotated after it was formed? Also, how fast did the earth spin at that time? Did the moon's tidal effect on the earth cause the earth's spin to slow? Thanks, Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What killed the woolly mammoth? A whole bunch ofthings
What killed the woolly mammoth? That's only a small part of the tangle of the Proboscideans. The Woolly Mammoth evolved from the Steppe Mammoth about 250,000 years ago, and the Steppe Mammoth evolved from the Ancestral Mammoths about 700,000 years ago. The Ancestral Mammoths appear about 2.5-3.0 million years before that --- in Sub-Sarahan Africa! You have to admit Africa is a strange place for Woolly Mammoths to trace their family tree from, the Asian Elephants and Mammoths spitting off at about the time. The Mammoths are related to the Mastodons who appear 28 million years ago and covered every continent except Antarctica and Australia. The South American Mastodons lasted until 9000 years ago, but North American Mastodons (equally "woolly") died out about 12,000 years ago, very like the Mammoths themselves. The causes cannot be same, despite the fact that the timeline is so similar, as Mammoths and Mastodons have different diets, need different terrain, environment, and climate, but they disappeared together One thing stands out, though: each successive Mammoth species was smaller than the one before it, ending with the Wrangel Mammoths who are no longer considered "dwarf;" they were about 2 meters at the shoulder. (Mediterranean Dwarf Mammoths were tiny, about the size of a Saint Bernard dog.) Scores of genera of "giant" mammals vanished from North America at the same time, with nothing much in common except that a) they were big, and b) there were suddenly humans in the neighborhood. The climate change argument is a poor one, as the climate of North America had been cycling through the usual changes of an Ice Age for some millions of years. And Man The Mighty Hunter doesn't convince me either. On the other hand, Man The Massive Environmental Changer might convince me, but there's no evidence of that in North American 12,000 years ago. Similar arguments have been raging about the megafaunal extinctions in Australia, the theory being that the massive environmental change was caused by the human use of fire, not hunting. That's been the big theory in Australia for decades, but now chronometric cores say the megafauna disappeared before fire increased, so they are back to the Mighty Hunter theory. See, they don't need a Dryas to generate lots of controversy. Poor Mammoths! Everything just ganged up on them all at once, I guess. Is that the current consensus? Did anyone ever considered that mere Giantism itself could be a self-defeating evolutionary strategy? In the long run, I mean. Giantism has been around for hundreds of millions of years, so there are lots of arguments for what a good idea it is. I think that's because we humans are always impressed by sheer bigness (Jurassic Park Syndrome). So why were the Mammoths "trying" to get small? There are so many things a "giant" can't do. It can't climb trees; it can't fly; it can't burrow; it can't live in the hills -- it doesn't function well in anything but flat terrain. There is a huge "investment" in huge individuals and their numbers are limited by that. Their range of "livable" conditions is very narrow. That's always a "giant" risk. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Paul H." To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 3:49 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] What killed the woolly mammoth? A whole bunch ofthings What killed the woolly mammoth? A whole bunch of things, scientists say, Christian Science Monitor, June 12, 2012, http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0612/What-killed-the-woolly-mammoth-A-whole-bunch-of-things-scientists-say.-video Woolly Mammoth Extinction Has Lessons for Modern Climate Change, ScienceDaily, June 12, 2012 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120612144809.htm Many factors in extinction of mammoths, SBS, June 12, 2012, http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1658619/Many-factors-in-extinction-of-mammoths Study: Many factors in mammoth extinction, UPI.com, June 12, 2012 http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2012/06/12/Study-Many-factors-in-mammoth-extinction/UPI-96671339529828/?spt=hs&or=sn The paper is: MacDonald, G. M., D. W. Beilman, Y. V. Kuzmin, L. A. Orlova, K. V. Kremenetski, B. Shapiro, R. K. Wayne, and B. Van Valkenburgh, 2012, Pattern of extinction of the woolly mammoth in Beringia. Nature Communications, 2012 DOI: 10.1038/ncomms1881 http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n6/full/ncomms1881.html Best wishes, Paul H. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What killed off the Mammoth?
EP, List, It was assumed that Wrangell Island mammoths ranged from 180-230 cm in shoulder height and were for a time considered "dwarf mammoths". However this classification has been re-evaluated and since the Second International Mammoth Conference in 1999, these mammoths are no longer considered to be true "dwarf mammoths" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_elephant Eight fee high at the shoulder is a little high for a "dwarf" or for a large dog. I don't want to meet a Weimaraner that's eight feet high, ya know? So, instead of being the World's Tallest Midget, they've decided it's the World's Smallest Giant. The California Channel Island mammoths were 4-5 feet at the shoulder and the Mediterranean Dwarf mammoths even smaller. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "E.P. Grondine" To: Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:38 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] What killed off the Mammoth? Hi Paul - The answer is the same thing that killed off many megafuana intercontinentally, instantaneously, and simlutaneously: global climate collapse, i.l., "nucelar winter". Now they are two causes of global dust loading, one of which is volcanic eruption, the other impact. Since we have no evidence of volcanic eruption, we are left with impact. PS- Sterling, Wrangle Island mammoth were already the size of large dogs, so small as to constitute a different species, using the old definition based on ability to interbreed. EP __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] lab evidence for disappearance of ultra cold neutrons to a parallel realm, free full text, Zurab Berezhiani, Fabrizio Nesti, 7 pages, Eur. Phys. J. C (2012) 72: Rich Murray 2012.0
Rich, List, So-called "mirror" matter is an old idea, around for decades. Is it crazy? Well, as Bohr said to Pauli, "We all agree your idea is crazy; what we're arguing about now is: is it crazy enough to be true?" For those who like Physics as a recreational sport, here two good internet reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_matter http://www.h2g2.com/approved_entry/A1300429 What is really annoying about this experiment is that, having shown that mirror exchanges are dependent on the absolute strength of the magnetic field, they FAIL TO MEASURE the magnetic field in their experiment. They only "estimate" it. How good are you, or anybody, at estimating magnetic fields? There have been weakly positive experiments in 1990 and 2000 detecting mirror matter, better than these, but mirror matter is so UN-detectable as to defy any clear demonstration. Interesting idea. Certainly more than crazy enough to be true. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Rich Murray" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:51 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] lab evidence for disappearance of ultra cold neutrons to a parallel realm, free full text, Zurab Berezhiani, Fabrizio Nesti, 7 pages, Eur. Phys. J. C (2012) 72: Rich Murray 2012.06.20 lab evidence for disappearance of ultra cold neutrons to a parallel realm, free full text, Zurab Berezhiani, Fabrizio Nesti, 7 pages, Eur. Phys. J. C (2012) 72: Rich Murray 2012.06.20 http://phys.org/news/2012-06-neutrons-parallel-world.html http://www.springerlink.com/content/h68g501352t57011/fulltext.pdf Eur. Phys. J. C (2012) 72:1974 DOI 10.1140/epjc/s10052-012-1974-5 Letter Magnetic anomaly in UCN trapping: signal for neutron oscillations to parallel world? Zurab Berezhiani1,2,a, Fabrizio Nesti1 1 Dipartimento di Fisica, Università dell’Aquila, Via Vetoio, 67100 Coppito, L’Aquila, Italy 2 INFN, Laboratori Nazionali Gran Sasso, 67010 Assergi, L’Aquila, Italy Received: 2 March 2012 / Published online: 11 April 2012 © The Author(s) 2012. This article is published with open access at Springerlink.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Kepler 36b
List, The newly discovered exo-planet, Kepler 36b, is being called a "SuperEarth. It's 1.486 Earth radii with 4.46 Earth masses. That gives it a density of 7.46. I say it's NOT a SuperEarth; it's a cannonball, comprised of mostly iron and some refractory slag on the surface. The other one, Kepler 36c, the so-called "Neptune," is actually a gassy IceBall, like Saturn with a small icy core, with its density of 1.12, (8.08 Earth masses and 3.679 Earth radii). Both of them have estimated temperatures in the 900 C. range. Kepler 36b probably has rivers of gold and silver, with glistening lakes of lead and mountains of tungsten. Like all the exo-planets, they are oddballs. No "normal" planets attract enough attention to be noticed by alien human surveys. Don't want to stand out. Just act natural. Nothing to see here. Move along, please. Sterling K. Webb - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Scientists Find New Primitive Mineral in Meteorite
Scientists Find New Primitive Mineral in Meteorite: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120626131907.htm Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [Meteorites] http://phys.org/news184402061.html
E Man, Pete, List, Lonsdalite is the mineral form found in carbonados... Not a mineralogist, even an amateur one, but the statement that seems to say that carbonados are made of lonsdaleite:made my nose tickle, so I went to the "consensus" source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonado "Carbonado, commonly known as the "Black Diamond", is a natural polycrystalline diamond found in alluvial deposits in the Central African Republic and Brazil.. .No distinctive high-pressure minerals, including the hexagonal carbon polymorph, lonsdaleite, have been found as inclusions in carbonados, although such inclusions might be expected if carbonados formed by meteorite impact." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonsdaleite "Lonsdaleite occurs as microscopic crystals associated with diamond in several meteorites: Canyon Diablo, Kenna, and Allan Hills 77283. It has also been reported from the Tunguska impact site. It also naturally occurring in non-bolide diamond placer deposits in the Sakha Republic. It has also been found in sediments dated to 12,900 years ago, at Lake Cutizeo, in the state of Guanajuato, Mexico..." What am I missing? Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "MstrEman" To: Cc: "The List" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] [Meteorites] http://phys.org/news184402061.html Not taking from what Pete said, lonsdalite isn't a newly identified mineral, per se. It has been around a few years but the explanation as to how both types of crystals formed "during entry" is bogus. Boron nitrate may or may not be formed on exposure to atmospheric nitrogen-- but it would only be on the surface and not in the interior. I haven't read the background on boron nitrate's formation conditions but I can't imagine a scenario that could impart any nitrogen into the COLD interior during entry. Either way the text for this report doesn't pass the smell test. As to lonsdaleite, "entry pressures" short of cosmic velocity impact with the ground are not high enough to create this polymorph of carbon. It is far more probable that lonsdalite is literally burned up in the presence of atmospheric oxygen as fast as it is uncovered. Lonsdalite is the mineral form found in carbonados. Its pentamount hardness is why drill bit manufacturers had to embed them uncut directly in the the bit casting. Until the recently found technique cutting/burning with a laser, there was nothing that could cut them. Another case of a out of work sports writer moonlighting as a science writer perhaps? If this is the researcher's real belief then he is advocating a whole new arm of physics/chemistry. Elton On 6/30/12, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: Hello list, The implications of these findings are, to say the least, staggering. has this been confirmed in other Ureilite meteorites? Such as Novo Urie, or others? For years, diamonds were the standard of hardness, and now that's all out the window Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Sterlitamak
Paul, List, You're right; the Sterlitamak "crater" is an odd case. It is neither exactly a "crater" nor merely an "impact pit," but is intermediate between the two forms:: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1992AVest..26...82P The Sterlitamak crater, is 9.4 meters and was formed on May 17, 1990 by a one-ton iron object. While every impact differs from others, a description of that crater is of interest: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1992Metic..27R.276P Quote: "The Sterlitamak meteorite fell on May 17, 1990 at 23h20m local time (17h20m GMT) and formed a crater in a field 20 km westward of the town of Sterlitamak (Petaev et al., 1991). Many witnesses in South Bashkiria saw a very bright fireball (up to -5 magnitude) moving from south to north at a ~45 degree angle to the horizon. Witnesses located ~2 km from the crater observed the fireball glowing right up to the time of impact, after which several explosions were heard. The crater was found on May 19. From witnesses' reports, the fresh crater was 4.5-5 m in depth and had sheer walls ~3 m in height below which was a conical talus surface with a hole in the center. The crater itself was surrounded by a continuous rim 60-70 cm in thickness and by radial ejecta. Our field team arrived at the crater on May 23, six days after its formation. We found the crater in rather good condition except for partial collapse of the rim, material from which had filled in the crater up to ~3 m from the surface. The western wall of the crater was composed of well-preserved brown loam with shale- like parting dipping 25-30 degrees away from the crater center. A large slip block of autogenic breccia was observed along the eastern crater wall. An allogenic breccia composed of a mixture of brown loam and black soil was traced to the depth of ~5 m from the surface. Outside the rim, the crater ejecta formed an asymmetric continuous blanket and distinct radial rays. The southern rays were shorter and thicker than the northern and eastern rays. About 2 dozen meteorite fragments, from several grams to several hundred grams in weight, were recovered in the crater vicinity. A search for other meteorite fragments or individuals at distances up to 1 km southward from the crater was unsuccessful. Two partly encrusted fragments (3 and 6 kg) with clear Widmanstatten pattern on a broken surface were found at a depth of ~8 m during crater excavation. In May of 1991 a 315-kg partly fragmented individual was recovered at a depth of ~12 m. This sample is a 50 x 45 x 28 cm block with front, rear and two adjoining lateral surfaces covered by regmaglypts and thick (~0.5 mm) fusion crust. The other two surfaces are very rough, contain no regmaglypts, and have a thinner fusion crust. The preimpact shape of the meteorite may be approximately modeled as a slab ~100 x 100 x 28 cm. An estimate of the projectile mass was made based on the crater dimensions. From the relationships between crater diameter and projectile mass determined for the Sikhote-Alin craters, the impact mass of the Sterlitamak meteorite is estimated at ~1 ton (Petaev, 1992). A separate estimate, based on cratering energy, yields a total mass of ~1.5 tons (Ivanov, Petaev, 1992). A comparison of the estimated projectile mass and the weight and morphology of the individual recovered suggests a fragmentation of the projectile in the atmosphere and the formation of the crater by the impact of an agglomeration of individuals. The other fragments of the projectile are still in the crater." http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/refer.htm "Observers claim that the fireball actually hit the ground. Impact velocity was estimated to be over 2 km/s and impact force was equal to 1 ton of TNT. Meteorite made 9.4 meter wide and 3 meter deep crater into a potato field. Impact (shockwave of falling meteorite) destroyed potatos in a area of 100 meter in radius. A 300 kg meteorite was recovered from 15 meter below surface and it is estimated that there should be at least one ton more meteorite but deeper in the ground." It buried itself! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Paul Gessler" To: "meteorite-list" Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 12:19 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Sterlitamak Ok I read the link to the Sterlitamak meteorite and a couple other write ups on it but can't locate the width of the crater. I see all the other measurements but missed the crater width. Does anybody know the answer? -Paul G __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-li
[meteorite-list] One More Moon for Pluto
List, The Hubble has discovered another moon of Pluto, bringing the total to 5 so far. The search is being conducted to evaluate risks to the flyby of the New Horizons probe of Pluto, scheduled for 2015. http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/new-pluto-moon.html Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Dioginites and the Age oof the Solar System
List, New Clues to the Early Solar System from Ancient Meteorites http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120722135204.htm Formation of dioginites dates planetary differentiatio, core formation, and late accretion to a much older age than previously thought -- 4.6 billion years. Read the details at the above link. Sterling K. Webb - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Impressive Viewer Interactive HDCuriosityCamera.
List, The cameras on MER Spirit did a lot of star images: http://www.universetoday.com/33613/spirit-rover-begins-making-night-sky-observations/ Exposures were limited to a short period and, of course, the camera couldn't slew like an equatorial mount, so it's not deep-sky work and can only take images of the bright stars. Spirit also took fine images of the Martian moons; there are a lot of nice pictures of Deimos and Phobos, including the frequent eclipses, here: http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/pancam_instrument/projects_2.html Also, meteors in the Martian atmosphere but no comets! Although a "local" phenomenon, there are lots of nice clouds on Mars to watch (and take movies of) as they drift along: http://spacetime.forumotion.com/t1037-clouds-on-mars Many of the best cloud movies are by the Phoenix lander. And, if you were ON Mars, you could watch the two bright "stars" of the Earth and its Moon orbit around each other every thirty days by the naked eye alone. From Mars, the Earth is an "Evening Star" or "Morning Star" like Venus is for us on Earth, and just as bright, often the brightest in the Martian sky, and with that orbital star of its own. Spirit took a picture of the Earth just after Martian twilight on sol 63 (2004), the first picture of the Earth from the surface of another world: http://gargles.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/Mars_to_Earth.jpg Although the Earth-Moon system had been photographed from Martian orbit earlier: http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/photography/enlarge/earth-from-mars-photography.html That would be worth going outside to watch, even if it is a little nippy at night on Mars. Well, more than a little nippy. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Chris Peterson" To: Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Impressive Viewer Interactive HDCuriosityCamera. The night sky on Mars is probably worse on average than on Earth. Our atmosphere hardly attenuates the stars at all (less than a magnitude at sea level), but Mars often has a lot of dust in the air, which definitely blocks them. Chris *** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com On 8/17/2012 11:13 AM, John Lutzon wrote: Thanks for the link...Awesome! Being that Curiosity is nuclear powered, I would love to see a night panorama of the amount of stars that would be visible in the dark thin atmosphere. John __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates
EP, All the theories in the world added together do not amount to one fact. But since we do not have ANY facts about the impact rates on the Moon (or Mars or Tital or Ganymede or anywhere at all and only inferential data for our own home planet), the sum accumulation of facts is... ZERO. We ain't got one fact. And the contribution of reason / inference from known quantities amount to considerably more than zero. Am I not the the one who is always saying, about endless speculation about the geology of Mars or asteroids, that we will never know until we have "boots on the ground," 100 geologists on Mars-suits, carrying those funny little hammers, and scooting around in monofuel Humvees, living in solar tents? Until then... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "E.P. Grondine" To: Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates Hi Sterling - Usually, you are spot on, but in this case... In fact, no one knows if the Earth sweeps stuff up for the Moon, or the Moon pulls in more stuff that hits the Earth. NASA's garbage estimates for ELEs are a perfect example of how bad their "modeled" impact estimates are; NASA's estimated human ELE rates are even worse - they appear to be off by two orders of magnitude. Earth impact rates need to be determined from Earth data. Then a more general model may be worked out, using accretion data from all bodies in our solar system. All the theories in the world added together do not amount to one fact. As far as the effects of hyper-velocity dust goes, I seem to recall parts of Surveyor being examined after lunar surface exposure. all the best, E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates
John, You got one of those funny little hammers? We're running low on those hammers. All the monofuel Humvees are checked out for months in advance. However, there are five solar-powered inflatable-box RV's sitting in the shed having the dust cleaned off. They're available. They make about 250 klicks a day with their 30 square meters of panel. They follow the GPS Autotrails, and if you see anything interesting, you can stop and let it charge while you bike over and check it out. With those high fat knobbly tires, you can cover a lot of ground in 0.37 gee just by pedaling. If you decide to stay out past the 30-day mark of the RV's supply inventory, the flyers can drop you a Supply Ball, but you have to chase it down after it finishes bouncing! The RV's hold four, so bring a couple more geologists and a paleontologist. Maybe you'll find the first fossil. Sounds good, doesn't it? Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "John Lutzon" To: "Sterling K. Webb" Cc: Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates I have next weekend open---Beam me up Sterling John ------- - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" To: "E.P. Grondine" ; Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates EP, All the theories in the world added together do not amount to one fact. But since we do not have ANY facts about the impact rates on the Moon (or Mars or Titan or Ganymede or anywhere at all and only inferential data for our own home planet), the sum accumulation of facts is... ZERO. We ain't got one fact. And the contribution of reason / inference from known quantities amount to considerably more than zero. Am I not the the one who is always saying, about endless speculation about the geology of Mars or asteroids, that we will never know until we have "boots on the ground," 100 geologists on Mars-suits, carrying those funny little hammers, and scooting around in monofuel Humvees, living in solar tents? Until then... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "E.P. Grondine" To: Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:55 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates Hi Sterling - Usually, you are spot on, but in this case... In fact, no one knows if the Earth sweeps stuff up for the Moon, or the Moon pulls in more stuff that hits the Earth. NASA's garbage estimates for ELEs are a perfect example of how bad their "modeled" impact estimates are; NASA's estimated human ELE rates are even worse - they appear to be off by two orders of magnitude. Earth impact rates need to be determined from Earth data. Then a more general model may be worked out, using accretion data from all bodies in our solar system. All the theories in the world added together do not amount to one fact. As far as the effects of hyper-velocity dust goes, I seem to recall parts of Surveyor being examined after lunar surface exposure. all the best, E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates
John, List, look at the Gulf of Mexico... Take a look at this website: http://www.scotese.com/ Here the PaleoMap Project is archived. The maps show the configuration of the Earth's land masses in different eras. You're talking about 66 million years ago as if the layout of the continents was the same as it is now. But take a look the map at: http://www.scotese.com/K/t.htm At the time of the Chicxulub event, what there was of Central America ended at Yucatan and Chicxulub. Western America was a long peninsula from Canada down to Chicxulub. There was an ocean gulf separating Eastern and Western America. The North Atlantic had just started to separate from America; Europe was mostly underwater. There were no western American mountains at all, no Rockies, no Andes. North and South America had 1000 miles or more of open ocean between them as did Africa and the little pieces of Europe. North America was tilted and rotated from its present position. The shapes you're describing didn't exist then. There was no round shape there. In fact, there was no "there" there. If you save all paleomap images to disc and number them by age, you can flip through 600+ million years of the Earth's history like a flickering slide show, and watch the continents waltz like drunken mice. One thing, though. There's always been more water than land, and that means a giant ocean, a "Pacific." Giant oceans always have rift zones that generate and spread new crust, which is pushed away to either side. The west edge of the Americas is one chunk of crust after another drifting east and piling up on the earlier pieces, hundreds of "cratons" jammed up together. Central America has been built up that same way from Pacific blocks. The lands IN the Caribbean, the mountainous islands, have been pushed from "behind," right off Central America and into the Caribbean. Probably they will continue to move in the direction of their present movement and end up out in the western Atlantic! If there IS an Atlantic, that is. Since Chicxulub, the Atlantic has opened up, closed again, and opened up again. Western Scotland is a piece of New England that stuck to Europe the last time it opened, and parts of Georgia are pieces of North Africa that did the same (both about 200 million years ago).. In 150 million years, the western Atlantic will be gone and the "Mid-Atlantic" ridge will run along the coast of both the Americas, close than the rift zone that eges Japan today. In another 100 million years after that, the two Americas, Africa, Europe, and Asia will be welded together in one gigantic continental landmass like the Gondwanaland and Pangea of 250 million years ago. In half a billion years, a supercontinent can break apart and drift away in every direction until the pieces circle the globe and meet up on "the other side" to form a new supercontinent. (There's no reference frame, so "the other side" is a relative term.) Since we live less than a century, we think of the Earth as a stable, reliable, almost unchanging place, very secure, but if we lived for say, a billion years, Earth would appear to be a restless, chaotic, unstable, and quite unpredictable world, an utterly insane planet. I like it, though... Sterling K. Webb ------- - Original Message - From: "John Lutzon" To: "Sterling K. Webb" Cc: Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates Sterling, My ball-peen hammer and Schwinn are ready to go. On a serious note, i'm All for trying to figure out what's going on and has gone "out there"--however, i also believe "we" should fund many more studies to figure out what has already happened "here". For many years people discarded the puzzle fit of S. America and Africa--well lo and behold the Palisades + Europe. Now, just look at the gulf of Mexico--is it possible that this was a major impact site and the Chicxulub impact was secondary??. John - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" To: "John Lutzon" Cc: Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Moon/Earth impact rates John, You got one of those funny little hammers? We're running low on those hammers. All the monofuel Humvees are checked out for months in advance. However, there are five solar-powered inflatable-box RV's sitting in the shed having the dust cleaned off. They're available. They make about 250 klicks a day with their 30 square meters of panel. They follow the GPS Autotrails, and if you see anything interesting, you can stop and let it charge while you bike over and check it out. With those high fat knobbly tires, you can cover a lot of ground in 0.37 gee just by pedaling. If yo
Re: [meteorite-list] OT - Happy Crab Nebula Day!
with each other but put it one linar month earlier than the Chinese account and are all inconsitent with rising times. An Islamic oberservation was discovered in 1978 that places the supernova in the year 446 of the Islamic calendar, which year ran from 12th of April 1054 to the 1st of April 1055 (it's a lunar calendar] at the summer low level of the Nile, which fits the July date. Claims that certain vague European accounts are of the Crab are rejected by most astronomers. Interpretations of the dates are not straightforward. the 24th of April and the 11th of May have also be argued for as the correct date by various scholare. The July 4 date was calculated by Jan Julius Lodewijk Duyvendak for Jan Oort in 1942. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "MexicoDoug" To: ; Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT - Happy Crab Nebula Day! It ought to be Julian since that was in effect ... or else all the references would have to say something about the re-adjustment of the date, but that's just an opinion! In astronomy, generally the 1582 conversion is respected by astronomers if I recall - I.e., before that time events are on the Julian Calendar, and afterwards Gregorian, even if they nation of the observation was still on the Julian date; usually that doesn't matter and by convention the expression I time I believe changes in 1582. Jean Meeus's incredibly useful books, if I had them would have an excellent discussion of the subject, but I don't have my references with me. Some other list member could look it up as Meeus'd be the expert. Best wishes Doug --- -Original Message- From: Patrick Wiggins To: MeteorList Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 10:12 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT - Happy Crab Nebula Day! I've often wondered and maybe someone here can answer. Since 1054 was long before the 1582 conversion from the Julian to Gregorian calendar, is the July 4 date that gets mentioned for the first sighting of supernova a Julian date or has it been converted to Gregorian? ??? patrick On 04 Jul 2011, at 10:25, Gary Fujihara wrote: Cosmic Fireworks: On July 4, 1054, Chinese astronomers observed a "guest star" in the constellation Taurus, the result of a star exploding or going Supernova. At mag -6, SN1054 (Supernova of 1054) became about 4 times brighter than Venus, was visible in daylight for 23 days, and lasted a period of two years. Today we can still see remnants of SN1054 as the Messier Object 1 (M1) Crab Nebula. http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/_M1.jpg Oh, and for those terrestrially bound in the USA, Happy Fourth of July! Gary Fujihara Big Kahuna Meteorites (IMCA#1693) 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/ http://shop.ebay.com/fujmon/m.html (808) 640-9161 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Does Asteroid Vesta Have a Moon?
Given Vesta's relatively low gravity -- 0.022 gee -- and its low escape velocity -- 350 m/s -- it would be very heard to smash Vesta hard enough to knock a chunk, oh, say, 5 km across off that hard rock and yet have it have so little energy that it moved slower than 350 m/s, which is a mere 783 mph. Much more likely scenario of a "moon" is a capture of a totally unrelated space rock. Lots of origin theory smoke, no data measurement fire. That is, we don't know the compositions of the minor planet moons we do know about, and we do know about quite a few: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_planet_moon Only "close" moons are likely to be "chips off the old block." Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Richard Montgomery" To: "Ron Baalke" ; "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Does Asteroid Vesta Have a Moon? List, Considering the possible plausibility of a pending companion 'moon' orbiting Vesta (or two???); and considering Mexico Doug's last contribution I pose a question: How could that grand ol' impact evidentiary-crater produce a moon of the ssame petrologic composition of Vesta's primary/current achondritic compostition be similar, due to a greater resultant mb-recrystalization from impact, than the host? Curious, Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: "Ron Baalke" To: "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 10:07 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Does Asteroid Vesta Have a Moon? http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/06jul_vestamoon/ Does Asteroid Vesta Have a Moon? NASA Science News July 6, 2011 July 6, 2011: NASA's Dawn spacecraft is closing in on Vesta, and from now until the ion-powered spacecraft goes into orbit in mid-July, every picture of the giant asteroid will be the best one ever taken. What will researchers do with this unprecedented clarity? "For starters," says Dawn chief engineer Marc Rayman, "we're going to look for an asteroid moon." You might think of asteroids as isolated bodies tumbling alone through space, but it's entirely possible for these old "loners" to have companions. Indeed, 19-mile-wide Ida, 90-mile-wide Pulcova, 103-mile-wide Kalliope, and 135-mile-wide Eugenia each have a moon. And 175-mile-wide Sylvia has two moons. Measuring 330 miles across, Vesta is much larger than these other examples, so a "Vesta moon" is entirely possible. Where do such moons come from? Rayman suggests one source: "When another large body collides with an asteroid, the resulting debris is sprayed into orbit around the asteroid and can gradually collapse to form a moon." Another possibility is "gravitational pinball": A moon formed elsewhere in the asteroid belt might, through complicated gravitational interactions with various bodies, end up captured by the gravity of one of them. Hubble and ground based telescopes have looked for Vesta moons before, and seen nothing. Dawn is about to be in position for a closer look. This Saturday, July 9th, just one week before Dawn goes into orbit around Vesta, the moon hunt will commence. The cameras will begin taking images of the space surrounding the asteroid, looking for suspicious specks. "If a moon is there, it will appear as a dot that moves around Vesta in successive images as opposed to remaining fixed, like background stars," says Dawn Co-investigator Mark Sykes, who is also director of the Planetary Science Institute. "We'll be able to use short exposures to detect moons as small as 27 meters in diameter. If our longer exposures aren't washed out by the glare of nearby Vesta, we'll be able to detect moons only a few meters in diameter." While you won't see "find a moon" among the mission's science goals, a moon-sighting would be a nice feather in Dawn's cap. Not that it will need more feathers. The probe is already primed to build global maps and take detailed images of the asteroid's surface, reveal the fine points of its topography, and catalog the minerals and elements present there. Besides, Dawn will become a moon itself when it enters orbit around Vesta. And the probe's motions as it circles will provide a lot of information about the rocky relic. Sykes explains: "We'll use the spacecraft's radio signal to measure its motion around Vesta. This will give us a lot of detailed information about the asteroid's gravitational field. We'll learn about Vesta's mass and interior structure, including its core and potential mascons (lumpy concentrations of mass)." As you read this, the spacecraft
Re: [meteorite-list] OT James Webb Space Telescope
The JWST has turned into a long-term project, stretching out its schedule to later and later launch dates. That is not a bad thing because the project improves as it does so. The loss of a year's funding needs to be partly reversed so that the project and personnel can be maintained until the return of funding. It wouldn't matter if it took an extra year to complete. We're already three billion dollars into the job. Of course, Congress could always simply throw that money away; they ARE stupid enough. It's not like the SSC which we abandoned after spending two billion (1993) dollars in it. Oh, wait! It is exactly like that. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Pete Pete" To: "meteoritelist meteoritelist" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 12:02 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] OT James Webb Space Telescope Bummer! Does anyone have Bill Gates' phone number? http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/07/07/canadian-developed-space-telescope-nixed-by-u-s-congress/ http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/07/07/canadian-developed-space-telescope-nixed-by-u-s-congress/ Canadian developed space telescope nixed by U.S. Congress By Amy Chung and Max Harrold OTTAWA — Space researchers were reeling Thursday over a decision in the U.S. Congress to axe funding for the James Webb Space Telescope — a Canadian and European joint effort with NASA that would peer deeper into space. Canada has earmarked $147 million for the project. The U.S. House of Representatives Appropriations Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice and Science approved a yearly spending bill earlier in the day that includes no money for the JWST — the successor to the Earth-orbiting Hubble Telescope that was launched in 1990. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Does Asteroid Vesta Have a Moon?
Doug, Richard, List, Most satellites whose mass ratio (compared to their primary) is very small are almost certainly "captures." Deimos, Phobos, the small stuff around the gas giants. Every satellite has a history of argument about its origins. Opinion drifts with the decades. Right now we like the Whack theories for Earth-Moon, Pluto-Charon. Neptune's Triton is a much disputed case (retrograde orbit). The formerly popular theory that gas giant satellites formed in place like little solar systems died away as it became obvious from computer modeling that "mini-solar-systems" were a no-go. Odd things happen: it looks like Saturn's Miranda was blown apart and then re-accreted without the pieces ever escaping. As for Vesta, I don't think there are any Vestan moons. Photographic surveys in the vicinity of Ceres (0.028 gee and an escape velocity of only 510 m/s) yield a 90%-plus certainty of no satellite as big (or as small) as 1000 meters diameter. I suspect the Dawn approach photos are being done because no one has searched for Vestan satellites before now, and just think of how embarassing it would be to run into one As for the Vestoids, the energy requirement for ejecta to be transfered to such orbits is not trivial. The average delta-v to move a mass from one asteroid orbit to a differing orbit a fraction of an AU away averages about 5000 m/s of total velocity change. This implies very energetic events were required to move the ejecta out and a lot of strong perturbations over a long time to regularize those orbits. And, if there is a Vestan satellite, there's a good chance it will show up in the year that Dawn there, whether detected in advance or not. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Richard Montgomery" To: ; ; ; "MexicoDoug" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Does Asteroid Vesta Have a Moon? Hi Sterling, Doug and List... My query concerns what we'll find pending whether a possible moon is of Vestan origen, or otherwise captured: would not an escaped impact fragment "off the ol' block," considering the impact and escape velocities also point to re-crystallization/ re-setting of certain atomic clocks/ et all, substantiate current theory of our HEDs? We've got to love the "capture" theory...think of the romance. Should 4Vesta indeed have a moon or few, "captured" and not ejected (per the impact velocity discussion above), the petro- mineral- and chemical -logic composition of the hostage will be the cheery-on-top! Alas, we wait and see. As is ours to discover!! Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: "MexicoDoug" To: ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Does Asteroid Vesta Have a Moon? Hi Sterling, For your run of the mill asteroid and some random impact, that would be a pretty good summary ... But personally, I think in the case of Vesta is anything but run of the mill (i.e., commonplace) - anything could be possible. I think, whether a Moon is found or not, the answer to Richard's question regarding possibility could be figured out by looking at the ejecta pattern and size distribution. You may be right about the possibilities and you severely limit the case by supposing a 5 km size giant rock. I want to generalize this more - the article we commented on tenderly referred to the Dawn Spacecraft becoming a moon of Vesta - so in that spirit we are talking about a 2 meter diameter one ton cube with Solar Panels and antenna. Thinking about the Meteor Crater or even bridging it to Carancas (see the picture of the tossed bedmud ;-) ) e.g., Svend's first picture: http://www.meteorite-recon.com/en/meteorite_carancas.htm Could one such boulder fall into the correct velocity range as you radiate outwards from the point of impact? Well, what is that velocity range? Well, Sterling: you gave us the escape velocity, but that is only one point. To better answer the question, we need to know the range. As you mentioned, the escape velocity is 350 m/s, so it would be less: but how much less to get our arms around this beast? I'll spare the calculation, all you need to do is divide 350 by square root of 2 to get the minimum velocity to attain orbit around Vest's surface. So it's 247 m/s. Thus the range of upward velocity (in is 247 to 350 m/s for Vesta. That's a big chunk of range. In English units 552 mph to 783 mph (cruising speeds for commercial airliners up to about Mach 1). You say: "Only "close" moons are likely to be "chips off the old block." I disagree with this too: since I don't see a reason that a 247 - 275 m/s velocity would be favored for example over 275 - 350 m/s in one of these events, but I su
Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011 MD Flyby Yields New Thinking
Melanie, List, At no point was 2011 MD "captured" by the Earth. Strongly "tugged at" but never "captured." If it had been at any point, it would never have escaped. why Earth doesn't have any natural satellites other than our moon? A satellite in an orbit outside the orbit of the Moon would be long-term stable with respect to the Moon's influence, but since the Moon is a distant satellite, relatively speaking, to the Earth, orbits further out run a high risk of having that satellite stripped away. OK, you say, let's make it CLOSER to the Earth than the Moon. The Moon is a big enough object to dominate the interior of its orbit. And interior object in a different orbital plane would be tugged and tugged until its orbit was within or very near to the plane of the Moon's orbit, and every time the satellite passed "close" or its closest to the Moon, the Moon's gravity would tug it outward. These transfers of energy would "pump up" the eccentricity of the satellite's orbit. It would rapidly become more elliptical, coming closer to the Moon at its apogee and closer to the Earth at its apogee. I think you can see where this is heading. That can't keep progressing. Sooner or later, the satellite will get so close to the Earth that it reaches the "Roche Limit," where the gravitational tides are greater than the material strength of the satellite and it breaks apart into rubble -- The Earth now has a Ring which will decay and re-enter, unless the disrupted satellite was large, in which it will be disrupted and dispersed as well. If, on the other hand, it were far enough from the Earth, the increasingly eccentric satellite would eventually collide with the Moon. New crater. Or, if the satellite were larger, new basin, or if it were really big, new mare sea of lava. When the Moon was accreting after the Giant Impact we now think formed it, this mechanism is the one that would have cleaned up all the pieces. One has only to look at the "front," or Earth-facing hemisphere, and compare it to the "back," non-Earth- facing hemisphere, to see where most large objects orbiting interior to the Moon ended up. Stuff from exterior orbits would strike the sides (Mare Orientale). Stuff from interior orbits would batter the "face." The back would be strikingly different than the front... and it is. The Moon is a good housekeeper and does not allow orbiting vermin, not even "dust bunnies." Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Melanie Matthews" To: "Ron Baalke" ; "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011 MD Flyby Yields New Thinking Interesting that it was momentarily captured by our planet's gravity... though wonder why Earth doesn't have any natural satalites other than our moon? I've read some online claims that Earth might have in the past? Cheers --- -Melanie "MetMel" - avid meteorite collector/enthusiast from Canada! IMCA#: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 I eat, sleep and breath meteorites 24/7. - Original Message From: Ron Baalke To: Meteorite Mailing List Sent: Fri, July 8, 2011 5:02:21 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011 MD Flyby Yields New Thinking http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/125041789.html Asteroid Flyby Yields New Thinking Kelly Beatty Sky & Telescope July 5, 2011 It was refreshing to see the news media show general restraint when asteroid 2011 MD zipped 7,600 miles from Earth on June 27th. I didn't spot any over-the-top headlines or crazy reporting about potential collisions with Earth. Instead, this rogue rock passed by uneventfully and put on a pretty good show for amateur astronomers equipped with good scopes and blessed with dark skies. Even though 2011 MD never got brighter than about 11th magnitude, its close flyby did trigger some interesting changes. First, the asteroid's orbit was yanked around quite a bit. Not only did it pass very close to Earth - well inside Earth's ring of geosynchronous satellites on its outgoing leg - but the asteroid also sped by relatively slowly. This put it within our planet's gravitational grip long enough to bend its trajectory significantly, causing the orbit to expand outward, as shown at right. Steven Chesley, a member of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory's team of solar-system dynamicists, calculates that 2011 MD's trajectory was bent by 130 degrees <http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news172.html>. "I don't recall ever seeing such a large turning angle for any other object," notes JPL's Paul Chodas. The close pass also reoriented the orbit's tilt by more than 5°, according to Andrea Milani, a near-Earth asteroid (NE
Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011 MD Flyby Yields New Thinking
coming closer to the Moon at its apogee and closer to the Earth at its apogee... I meant: coming closer to the Moon at its apogee and closer to the Earth at its perigee... Duh. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Sterling K. Webb" To: "Melanie Matthews" ; "Ron Baalke" ; "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011 MD Flyby Yields New Thinking Melanie, List, At no point was 2011 MD "captured" by the Earth. Strongly "tugged at" but never "captured." If it had been at any point, it would never have escaped. why Earth doesn't have any natural satellites other than our moon? A satellite in an orbit outside the orbit of the Moon would be long-term stable with respect to the Moon's influence, but since the Moon is a distant satellite, relatively speaking, to the Earth, orbits further out run a high risk of having that satellite stripped away. OK, you say, let's make it CLOSER to the Earth than the Moon. The Moon is a big enough object to dominate the interior of its orbit. And interior object in a different orbital plane would be tugged and tugged until its orbit was within or very near to the plane of the Moon's orbit, and every time the satellite passed "close" or its closest to the Moon, the Moon's gravity would tug it outward. These transfers of energy would "pump up" the eccentricity of the satellite's orbit. It would rapidly become more elliptical, coming closer to the Moon at its apogee and closer to the Earth at its apogee. I think you can see where this is heading. That can't keep progressing. Sooner or later, the satellite will get so close to the Earth that it reaches the "Roche Limit," where the gravitational tides are greater than the material strength of the satellite and it breaks apart into rubble -- The Earth now has a Ring which will decay and re-enter, unless the disrupted satellite was large, in which it will be disrupted and dispersed as well. If, on the other hand, it were far enough from the Earth, the increasingly eccentric satellite would eventually collide with the Moon. New crater. Or, if the satellite were larger, new basin, or if it were really big, new mare sea of lava. When the Moon was accreting after the Giant Impact we now think formed it, this mechanism is the one that would have cleaned up all the pieces. One has only to look at the "front," or Earth-facing hemisphere, and compare it to the "back," non-Earth- facing hemisphere, to see where most large objects orbiting interior to the Moon ended up. Stuff from exterior orbits would strike the sides (Mare Orientale). Stuff from interior orbits would batter the "face." The back would be strikingly different than the front... and it is. The Moon is a good housekeeper and does not allow orbiting vermin, not even "dust bunnies." Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Melanie Matthews" To: "Ron Baalke" ; "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011 MD Flyby Yields New Thinking Interesting that it was momentarily captured by our planet's gravity... though wonder why Earth doesn't have any natural satalites other than our moon? I've read some online claims that Earth might have in the past? Cheers --- -Melanie "MetMel" - avid meteorite collector/enthusiast from Canada! IMCA#: 2975 eBay: metmel2775 I eat, sleep and breath meteorites 24/7. - Original Message From: Ron Baalke To: Meteorite Mailing List Sent: Fri, July 8, 2011 5:02:21 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Asteroid 2011 MD Flyby Yields New Thinking http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/125041789.html Asteroid Flyby Yields New Thinking Kelly Beatty Sky & Telescope July 5, 2011 It was refreshing to see the news media show general restraint when asteroid 2011 MD zipped 7,600 miles from Earth on June 27th. I didn't spot any over-the-top headlines or crazy reporting about potential collisions with Earth. Instead, this rogue rock passed by uneventfully and put on a pretty good show for amateur astronomers equipped with good scopes and blessed with dark skies. Even though 2011 MD never got brighter than about 11th magnitude, its close flyby did trigger some interesting changes. First, the asteroid's orbit was yanked around quite a bit. Not only did it pass very close to Earth - well inside Earth's ring of geosynchronous satellites on its outgoing leg - but the asteroid also sped by relatively slowly. This put it within our planet's gravitational grip long enough to bend its trajecto
Re: [meteorite-list] Dawn Spacecraft to Enter Asteroid's Orbit on July15
ge of a buried crater rim? There is a lot of "gouged out" terrain. Another oddity is the very narrow range of contrast in the "albedo" features (light and dark). Variations are subtle (play with the histogram). Interestingly, all the papers on Vesta refer to the surface as "dark," while in fact the albedo of Vesta is considerably higher than the Earth's. Shiny basalt everywhere. Dark rock, yes, but bright dark rock... No doubt, all questions will be answered with bigger images... or more mysteries revealed. There's nothing like a new planet for fun! (OK, ok, "planet-oid," kill-joy.) I should sign this "Puzzled" or "Perplexed," because I am. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "Ron Baalke" To: "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 10:23 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Dawn Spacecraft to Enter Asteroid's Orbit on July15 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-208 NASA Spacecraft to Enter Asteroid's Orbit on July 15 Jet Propulsion Laboratory July 14, 2011 [Image} Asteroid Vesta NASA's Dawn spacecraft obtained this image of the giant asteroid Vesta with its framing camera on July 9, 2011. Image credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA PASADENA, Calif. -- On July 15, NASA's Dawn spacecraft will begin a prolonged encounter with the asteroid Vesta, making the mission the first to enter orbit around a main-belt asteroid. The main asteroid belt lies between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. Dawn will study Vesta for one year, and observations will help scientists understand the earliest chapter of our solar system's history. As the spacecraft approaches Vesta, surface details are coming into focus, as seen in a recent image taken from a distance of about 26,000 miles (41,000 kilometers). The image is available at: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/dawn/multimedia/dawn-image-070911.html . Engineers expect the spacecraft to be captured into orbit at approximately 10 p.m. PDT Friday, July 15 (1 a.m. EDT Saturday, July 16). They expect to hear from the spacecraft and confirm that it performed as planned during a scheduled communications pass that starts at approximately 11:30 p.m. PDT on Saturday, July 16 (2:30 a.m. EDT Sunday, July 17). When Vesta captures Dawn into its orbit, engineers estimate there will be approximately 9,900 miles (16,000 kilometers) between them. At that point, the spacecraft and asteroid will be approximately 117 million miles (188 million kilometers) from Earth. "It has taken nearly four years to get to this point," said Robert Mase, Dawn project manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. "Our latest tests and check-outs show that Dawn is right on target and performing normally." Engineers have been subtly shaping Dawn's trajectory for years to match Vesta's orbit around the sun. Unlike other missions, where dramatic propulsive burns put spacecraft into orbit around a planet, Dawn will ease up next to Vesta. Then the asteroid's gravity will capture the spacecraft into orbit. However, until Dawn nears Vesta and makes accurate measurements, the asteroid's mass and gravity will only be estimates. So the Dawn team will need a few days to refine the exact moment of orbit capture. Launched in September 2007, Dawn will depart for its second destination, the dwarf planet Ceres, in July 2012. The spacecraft will be the first to orbit two bodies in our solar system. Dawn's mission to Vesta and Ceres is managed by JPL for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. Dawn is a project of the directorate's Discovery Program, which is managed by NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. UCLA is responsible for overall Dawn mission science. Orbital Sciences Corp. of Dulles, Va., designed and built the spacecraft. The German Aerospace Center, the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, the Italian Space Agency and the Italian National Astrophysical Institute are part of the mission team. For a current image of Vesta and more information about the Dawn mission, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/dawn and http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov .You also can follow the mission on Twitter at: http://www.twitter.com/nasa_dawn . Priscilla Vega/Jia-Rui Cook 626-298-3290/818-354-0850 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. priscilla.r.v...@jpl.nasa.gov / jcc...@jpl.nasa.gov Dwayne C. Brown 202-358-1726 NASA Headquarters, Washington dwayne.c.br...@nasa.gov 2011-208 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
Litigation was also a factor in Sylacauga: http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1280 "Television, radio and newspaper excitement lasted for weeks, highlighted by a very public dispute between the Hodges and Birdie Guy, who owned the home in which the Hodges lived as renters. Facing repair expenses for the damaged house, Guy was advised by her attorney that legal precedent had established that meteorites were the property of the landowner, and she sued for possession of the rock. The Hodges threatened to counter- sue for Ann's injuries, and the outraged public sided with her. Before it went to trial, cooler heads prevailed and after a modest private settlement, Guy gave up her claim on the meteorite to the Hodges... Hewlett Hodges believed that the couple stood to make a fortune from the incident. He refused what he considered an inadequate offer for the meteorite from the Smithsonian Institution, claiming he had received other offers as high as $5,500. In the end, Ann Hodges, not knowing how to bargain with the media, earned at most only a few hundred dollars from the incident that had made her famous. By 1956, the bad publicity surrounding the lawsuit ended the monetary offers, and she donated the meteorite to the Alabama Museum of Natural History, where it remains. Probably the only major figure in the entire Sylacauga meteorite story to claim a satisfactory ending was Julius K. McKinney, a farmer who lived near the Hodges. On December 1, 1954, the day after Ann Hodges was struck, he discovered a second fragment of the meteorite in the middle of a dirt road. McKinney was able to sell his rock to the Smithsonian for enough to purchase a small farm and a used car. This fragment is on display at the Smithsonian Institution, but the label strangely does not acknowledge its more famous Alabama sibling." Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "bill kies" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers They didn't find it, it found them. And, even though it was unprecedented in Virginia, Sylacauga comes to mind. The meteorite was returned to the Hodgeses. Does anyone know of a similar case or cases that went the other way? In favor of the landlord or a third party? From: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:41:46 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] DAWN drives up to Vesta
Doug, List, I suggest the very detailed "Dawn Journal" postings by Dr. Marc D. Rayman, Chief Engineer. Of course, he's busy right now! The last Journal log was June 23, 2011, but the earlier extensive Journals have a lot of information. They can be found at: http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journal.asp On June 1, Dawn was closing at 540 mph. By June 23, about 250 mph. Currently, it's within your local speed limit 55-65 mph. Hands on the wheel and eyes on the road. "The spacecraft will glide into a very high orbit in late July and continue thrusting, gently as always, until early August, when it will arrive in its survey orbit at an orbit at an altitude of about 2700 kilometers (1700 miles)." You will note that Dawn is AHEAD of schedule now, gaining it more time at Vesta. Ion drive is like a video game -- play it right, you get bonus points. "In survey orbit, the probe will be about 2700 kilometers (1700 miles) above the surface. During the approach phase, navigators will measure the strength of Vesta's gravitational tug on the spacecraft so they can compute the giant asteroid's mass with much greater accuracy than astronomers have yet been able to determine it. (The mass is calculated now using observations of how Vesta perturbs the orbits of other asteroids and even of Mars.) That knowledge will allow them to refine the survey orbit altitude, and they may target it to be somewhat higher or lower, depending on whether Vesta is more massive or less massive than the current calculations show. The sequences for acquiring science data are being designed to accommodate a reasonable range of masses. Dawn will be in a near-polar orbit. Its trajectory will take it over the north pole (which will be in darkness, because it will be northern hemisphere winter at that time), then over the terminator (the boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated sides), down over the equator, over the south pole, and then across the terminator again to pass over Vesta's night side. Such an orbit allows the spacecraft to have a view of virtually every part of the lit surface at some time. Each revolution in survey orbit will take 2.5 to 3 days to complete. While this may seem like a leisurely pace, the spacecraft will be busy the entire time. The primary objective of survey orbit is to get a broad overview of Vesta with color pictures and with ultraviolet, visible, and infrared spectra. The camera will obtain views with 250 meters (820 feet) per pixel, about 150 times sharper than the best images from the Hubble Space Telescope. The mapping spectrometer will reveal much of the surface at better than 700 meters (2300 feet) per pixel." Actually finding the Pole (so you can line up for a polar orbit) has been a problem. North? South? East? West? Front? Back? Which pole? Vesta's irregularity poses a limit on "How low can you go?" Interplanetary Limbo can be hazardous to your spacecraft... Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "MexicoDoug" To: Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 11:36 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] DAWN drives up to Vesta Hi everyone with a bit of Vesta fun, This is a different kind of encounter to visit Vesta, not like we're used to hearing about anyway from visits to the Moon, Mars. At the moment, it's about 13,000 km (9,000 miles) to Vesta and like a nice Chevy Camaro (or a Ford Mustang in a pinch) DAWN is cruising along the interplanetary highway (route I-5 in honor of Vesta's soon to be crowning as a dwarf planet, the fifth planet, considering all roads lead to and from Earth). Get ready to promote all of your HED meteorites ;-), even the moon isn't planetary according to the IAU ... because where the rock is matters to them for some fool reason. Is there really much risk to the Vesta orbital insertion? I'd say no, nothing to hold your breath over. Does anyone recall the Six-Million Dollar Man - he pretty much could could run the approach to Vesta - heck even we could, so I'm imagining DAWN tooling along in slow motion just as he would, for the effect of speed (of course by slowing down - I need a psychologist to explain why we are now all conditioned from television to feel speed when the film is slowed down with interesting sound effects). The real risk, I'm guessing has already been made and we are kind of stuck with it and most depends on the assumption of Vesta's mass barring mechanical steering failure which is very unlikely during this critical maneuver considering the long track record and minimum of moving parts and that it would have to be for a much longer time than a conventional propellant motor. If the target is an initial orbit around Vesta at 100 km altitude, for example, I'm thinking how close they will get to it since chan
Re: [meteorite-list] OT Vesta
Dear Mushroom Men, ...fighting it out with Charlie's authors... Authors? There is but the ONE author, the late great Roald Dahl [Wing Commander Dahl, 1916 -- 1990], author of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, James and the Giant Peach, The Fantastic Mr. Fox, Matilda, The Witches, The Twits, Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator, The BFG, The Gremlins, The Enormous Crocodile, Esio Trot, George's Marvellous Medicine, Danny, the Champion of the World, The Giraffe and the Pelly and Me, The Minpins, The Vicar of Nibbleswicke, The Magic Finger, The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar and... When he died in 1990, he was buried with his favorite snooker cues, some very good burgundy and of course, lots of chocolates, a box of HB pencils and a power saw in case it was, well, too confining in there. Eleanor Frances Butler Cameron (1912–1996) criticized the book for the Evil Mr. Wonka's "unfeeling attitude toward the Oompa-Loompas, their role as conveniences and devices to be used for Wonka’s purposes, their being brought over from Africa for enforced servitude, and the fact that their situation is all a part of the fun and games. I find it regrettable, too, that Willy Wonka, through the cleverness of his advertising, can triumphantly convince Charlie that life lived forever inside the factory, enclosed as in a prison, is the height of all possible bliss, with here again no word said, nothing expressed, that would question this idea." Yes, Mr. Wonka is another Simon Legree, a slave master, a capitalist exploiter in the mold of diabolical Mr. William Gates, no doubt. Ms. Cameron objects to Charlie because it is "fantastical... caricature, [and] removed from reality," hence children learn nothing from it. She recommends "Little Women and Gulliver’s Travels" herself, works of obvious moral rectitude, I suppose. Wait! Is Gulliver’s Travels really realistic? She also recommends Alice In Wonderland which, as we all know, is not in the least fantastical or like caricature of any sort and contains none but the morally edifying characters... She likes Charlotte's Web thoroughly. Nothing fantastical there; I talk to pigs and spiders myself... I think Cameron is a humorless Canadian twit incapable of understanding irony in any form, a person thoroughly earnest and thick as a brick. . If you wish to read her attack on Dahl, his response, her response to his response, etc., you will find them here: http://www.hbook.com/history/magazine/camerondahl.asp Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "MexicoDoug" To: ; Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT Vesta Well, Rob ok! Now, you are absolutely right about that. Curiously you've now picked my absolute favorite children's book of all time (Is it coincidence or did you know), which two kind and generous list members actually had me shaking in my shoes by giving me the entire mushroom planet series of books. The kicker is ... the author of Mushroom Planet despised Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and created quite a scandal and old-style flame war fighting it out with Charlie's authors...because the premises of Charlie and ..." was a terrible direction to corrupt young minds with given the existing body of literature available to children. The same concerns are why the Oompa Loompas lost their green hair after the book was written. Charlie is one of my top ten as well so I guess I'm corrupted, but there was no foul smelling sulfur on Vesta like Basidium, Vesta is a sweet as a burst of chocolate so we'll have to hang the jury? As for the green Mushroom people, I still think I'm one of them - and I have claimed being from Vesta before (Why not, Sterling is from Venus). The whole thing can be reconciled if we are talking about the same crowd which staged a journey from Vesta on Basidium-X, a Vestoid, and hitched up to a gaggle of Wild geese to Earth after Mrs. Pennyfeather died and they were out of Sulfur (which is not naturally ocurring on Basidium-X) in the 1950s, and then established themselves in Oompa-Loompish until Mr. Wonka picked them up in the 1970s. I'll drink to that ;-) Best wishes Doug ref: stolen ideas from Mushroom Planet, Chocolate Factory, Little Prince, and another book or two as the arrival at Vesta seems as unbelievable as it has been long-awaited -Original Message- From: Rob Wesel To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug Sent: Sun, Jul 17, 2011 6:14 pm Subject: OT Vesta I'll give ya the crater (I didn't know that until now - Ries/Nördlingen being the filming site) but Vesta is more the territory of Mr. Bass and the little green people of the Mushroom Planet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Flight_to_the_Mushroom_Planet Rob Wesel -
Re: [meteorite-list] OT Vesta
Dear Ian, I did not mean to imply that the list of other traits were particularly associated with her Canadian origin in any way. The principal target of her attack was media theorist Marshall McLuhan, a Canadian, who first discussed the effect of various media on the mind, especially television, which Cameron seriously disliked for discouraging the young from reading. Then she attacked Dahl for his books -- when they do read, this is what they like -- which she said revealed what a terrible human being he was. It was what we call an ad hominem attack, or directed at the person himself. Dahl, of course was British, as the mention of his WWII RAF rank of Wing Commander should make clear. However, she did not criticize him for his beastly behavior toward harmless German tourists visiting Britain, France and Greece in their Messerschmidts and Junkers. Having already indicated (implicitly) that Dahl was a UK writer, I felt it was worth pointing out that Cameron was Canadian, hence the quarrel was intra-Commenwealth though fought on American soil and over their markets. Actually, it wasn't that simple. Although Eleanor Cameron was born in Canada, she lived most of her life in California. Her parents moved to Berkeley, California, early in her life. She then lived in Los Angeles until she moved to Pacific Grove, California, where she lived for the rest of her life. And Dahl, as his first name Roald suggests, was Norwegian, whose parents moved to Wales where he was born and grew up, but spending every summer with his grandmother in Norway, but he would end up spending much time living in New York because his wife was an American movie star. Cameron being Canadian in origin has nothing to do with her being a twit, humourless and thick. I suspect those traits are innate. And I doubt that Dahl had devillishly pointed wit because he was Norwegian or Welsh. Of course the Oompah Loompahs are a satire of slavery! Cameron simply believes that children are not capable of thinking and must be told explicitly what to feel and believe. She says so in her attack on Dahl. Children are too dumb to get it... probably because she is too dumb to get it, since she seems to think Dahl is actually advocating slavery. Many of the practices Dahl satirized, tickets, prizes, tours, free goodies, were devices of the giant Cadbury company (who used to force their workers to live in company towns Nestled up against the factory like Oompah Loompahs). Sadly (I think) Dahl's publishers had him re-write the book to eliminate politically incorrect criticism. Eventually it was re-written several more times, some of them after his death, so we;ll never know what he wrote unless you have a 1964-1972 copy.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_and_the_Chocolate_Factory#Reception Speaking of satire, here's more information on the poor enslaved population of Oompah Loompahs: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Oompah_Loompah Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Ian Nicklin To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com ; MexicoDoug ; nakhla...@comcast.net ; Sterling K. Webb Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 7:14 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT Vesta what, exactly, does her being Canadian have to do with her being a twit, humourless or thick? she may well have been all of the aforementioned, however, Canadians have not cornered the market on any of those traits, and speaking of bricks, people living in glass houses should be careful about hucking them about. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT^2 Vesta
Doug,
...She was respectful about it.
On the contrary, she pronounced him an Evil
Genius, like the diabolical Wonka himself. That
is what Dahl objected to in his reply:
"She quotes Eudora Welty — and she wouldn’t quote
her if she didn’t agree with her — as saying, “three
kinds of goodness in fiction . . . the goodness of the
writer himself, his worth as a human being. And this
worth is always mercilessly revealed in his writing.”
Having said this, she goes on to announce that
Charlie is “one of the most tasteless books ever
written for children.” She says a lot of other very
nasty things about it, too, and the implication here
has to be that I also am a tasteless and nasty person."
If the book is (in your opinion) tasteless and nasty,
then YOU must be tasteless and nasty, too. You are
worthless as a human being ("this worth is always
mercilessly revealed in his writing").
It's an astoundingly nasty thing to say about someone
and only a humorless ideologue (or someone even
nastier) would make a flat-out accusation like that,
even if they thought so, in a public forum.
It's not criticism; it is, as you called it, a "flame." If
I had been Dahl I wouldn't have responded by trying
to point out that I was a decent person... really, I am.
You can't talk to people like that. It's a waste of time.
Sterling K. Webb
-
- Original Message -
From: "MexicoDoug"
To: ; ;
;
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT^2 Vesta
(Canada - see #4 below)
I loved Charlie and wouldn't think of letting anyone's opinion change
that in any way. But understanding what was at the root of the
disagreement is important. Another favorite author, Ursula Le Guin
weighed in strongly on the side of Eleanor Cameron ... To them Charlie
was the Simpsons vs. the light.
I think it is important to put this in context. Charlie took the
country by storm and was so popular among children that plenty of the
old literature was tossed aside. What's your favorite book? I would
have answered Charlie for a time... Eleanor Cameron's opinions do
absolutely nothing to affect my enjoyment and memory of her stories,
they are on their own merit classics and could have been written by the
wicked witch of the west for all I care. I'm not old enough to have
read them originally but my interest in space travel was also
influenced greatly by the first book (which I lucked out and won in a
spelling bee in 3rd grade by a teacher who recognized my early
interests, though my sppeling is still at that level).
Going one step further, I see Cameron's points of view and am receptive
to them. Receptive doesn't mean agreement, just that she is definitely
not a twit! America was modernizing just coming off the civil rights
movement and still dealing with the equal rights amendment fallout for
women, and there were still many fissures. It wasn't a case of one
'twit', it was a full fledged 50% / 50% argument where everyone had an
opinion. Her objections really went something like these four
categories if you read the entire exchange:
1- that children were becoming taken over by television instead of
reading, action, one dimensional villains and heroes, and now the
kiddie literature was going in that direction
2 - that Charlie was a cruel book
3 - that the characters were superficial in Charlie
4 - that locking up a race of African pygmies with green hair and
forcing Charlie's grandparents by that removing them against their
will, to live in the confines of a closed, walled chocolate factory
forever, similar to the situation of the African tribe, was not the way
children should view interactions with elderly.
For #1, it was the beginning of the complaint that television - it
still is a valid argument today
For #2, kids thought it was funny, when other children were stuffed in
tubes or inflate into giant blueberries until they exploded, etc.
Well, plenty of fairy tales are cruel. Eleanor would have loved Harry
Potter for a change.
For #3 Charlie's cohort winners had no character development
whatsoever, they were just there to stereotype and abuse; Charlie's
extreme poverty was never explored, just exploited as a prop and the
solution to life was getting a piece (or factory) of candy. well,
welcome to the real world ;-(
For #4, we are not in the right times to judge the sensitive racial
issue as the country was going through pains at the time - something
absent in Canada, and seeing it as a Canadian, it must have been
tempting for everyone to offer an opinion. She was respectful about
it.
#4 continued: The issue about the elderly has special meaning to me now
and is disconcerting. I never would have understood it until a few
years ago and I really do wish that Charlie was kinder than it was by
describing them as
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA Dawn Spacecraft Returns Close-Up Image ofVesta
Anyone having trouble finding the full sized images? 07-17-11 http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/dawn/multimedia/pia14313.html Anaglyptic image: http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/571438main_pia14314-full_full.jpg Enhanced Viuew of South Pole http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/571364main_pia14315-full_full.jpg Large Composite image http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/571423main_pia14316-full_full.jpg Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "Ron Baalke" To: "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] NASA Dawn Spacecraft Returns Close-Up Image ofVesta http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-213 NASA Dawn Spacecraft Returns Close-Up Image of Vesta Jet Propulsion Laboratory July 18, 2011 [Image] This is the first image obtained by NASA's Dawn spacecraft after successfully entering orbit around Vesta. Image credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA/MPS/DLR/IDA PASADENA, Calif. -- NASA's Dawn spacecraft has returned the first close-up image after beginning its orbit around the giant asteroid Vesta. On Friday, July 15, Dawn became the first probe to enter orbit around an object in the main asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. The image taken for navigation purposes shows Vesta in greater detail than ever before. When Vesta captured Dawn into its orbit, there were approximately 9,900 miles (16,000 kilometers) between the spacecraft and asteroid. Engineers estimate the orbit capture took place at 10 p.m. PDT Friday, July 15 (1 a.m. EDT Saturday, July 16). Vesta is 330 miles (530 kilometers) in diameter and the second most massive object in the asteroid belt. Ground- and space-based telescopes have obtained images of Vesta for about two centuries, but they have not been able to see much detail on its surface. "We are beginning the study of arguably the oldest extant primordial surface in the solar system," said Dawn principal investigator Christopher Russell from the University of California, Los Angeles. "This region of space has been ignored for far too long. So far, the images received to date reveal a complex surface that seems to have preserved some of the earliest events in Vesta's history, as well as logging the onslaught that Vesta has suffered in the intervening eons." Vesta is thought to be the source of a large number of meteorites that fall to Earth. Vesta and its new NASA neighbor, Dawn, are currently approximately 117 million miles (188 million kilometers) away from Earth. The Dawn team will begin gathering science data in August. Observations will provide unprecedented data to help scientists understand the earliest chapter of our solar system. The data also will help pave the way for future human space missions. After traveling nearly four years and 1.7 billion miles (2.8 billion kilometers), Dawn also accomplished the largest propulsive acceleration of any spacecraft, with a change in velocity of more than 4.2 miles per second (6.7 kilometers per second), due to its ion engines. The engines expel ions to create thrust and provide higher spacecraft speeds than any other technology currently available. "Dawn slipped gently into orbit with the same grace it has displayed during its years of ion thrusting through interplanetary space," said Marc Rayman, Dawn chief engineer and mission manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. "It is fantastically exciting that we will begin providing humankind its first detailed views of one of the last unexplored worlds in the inner solar system." Although orbit capture is complete, the approach phase will continue for about three weeks. During approach, the Dawn team will continue a search for possible moons around the asteroid; obtain more images for navigation; observe Vesta's physical properties; and obtain calibration data. In addition, navigators will measure the strength of Vesta's gravitational tug on the spacecraft to compute the asteroid's mass with much greater accuracy than has been previously available. That will allow them to refine the time of orbit insertion. Dawn will spend one year orbiting Vesta, then travel to a second destination, the dwarf planet Ceres, arriving in February 2015. The mission to Vesta and Ceres is managed by JPL for the agency's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. Dawn is a project of the directorate's Discovery Program, which is managed by NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. UCLA is responsible for Dawn mission science. Orbital Sciences Corp. of Dulles, Va., designed and built the spacecraft. The German Aerospace Center, the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, the Italian Space Agency and the Italian National Astrophysical Institute are part of the mis
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite found in Xinjiang
where I can find photos of Fukang main mass ? http://www.meteorites4sale.net/Fukang_MM.jpg Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Marcin Cimala" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite found in Xinjiang Hi So if this china monster is similar to Fukang, where I can find photos of Fukang main mass ? I missed this attraction in Tucson 2007 :(( -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) 567667 [ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ] __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Unexpected Vesta News
http://www.aanda.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=735&Itemid=277&lang=en_GB.utf8%2C+en_GB.UT "Astronomy & Astrophysics is publishing a new study of the orbital evolution of minor planets Ceres and Vesta, a few days before the Dawn spacecraft enters Vesta's orbit. A team of astronomers found that close encounters among these bodies lead to strong chaotic behavior of their orbits, as well as of the Earth's eccentricity. This means, in particular, that the Earth's past orbit cannot be reconstructed beyond 60 million years. Although small, Ceres and Vesta gravitationally interact together and with the other planets of the Solar System... these effects do not average out. Consequently, the bodies leave their initial orbits and, more importantly, their orbits are chaotic, meaning that we cannot predict their positions... Last but not least, Ceres and Vesta gravitationally interact with the Earth, whose orbit also becomes unpredictable after only 60 million years. This means that the Earth's eccentricity, which affects the large climatic variations on its surface, cannot be traced back more than 60 million years ago." Free acces to the full article can be found at: http://www.aanda.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/0004-6361/201117504&Itemid=129 Those sneaky minor, er, dwarf planets! You can't tell what they'll get up to next! Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hubble Space Telescope discovers 4th moon around Pluto
EREBUS (Darkness and Shadow), the brother of Nyx (already a satellite of Pluto), and a name NOT yet taken for a minor planet. Erebus and Nyx had a daughter -- Nemesis (a ruined name), as is Cerebus (minor planet). The pair gave birth to Aether (atmosphere) and Hemera (day). Later, on her own, Nyx gives birth to Momus (blame), Moros (doom), Thanatos (death), Hypnos (sleep), Charon (the ferryman of Hades), the Oneiroi (dreams), the Hesperides, the Keres and Moirae (Fates), Nemesis (retribution), Apate (deception), Philotes (friendship), Geras (age), and Eris (strife). The Plutonian satellite Nix is spelled that way, as a cheat to use the name even though there is a minor planet 3908 Nyx. You could change the spelling of 1865 Cerberus to "Cerberis" and have the three-headed dog (suitable for a small yappy moon). Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: "karmaka" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hubble Space Telescope discovers 4th moon around Pluto How should S/2011 (134340) 1 be called? Any suggestions? How about KALI ? It's not Greek, but ... Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: karmaka Gesendet: 20.07.2011 22:11:26 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hubble Space Telescope discovers 4th moon around Pluto Fascinating news !!! Thank you for sharing this, Robert. It's hard to wait another four years until New Horizons reveals more secrets from the icy spheres around Pluto. But that's 'space' Best wishes Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: "Matson, Robert D." Gesendet: 20.07.2011 20:35:17 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Hubble Space Telescope discovers 4th moon around Pluto Hi All, Pluto has a 4th moon! Here's a link to the CBAT: http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/cbet/cbet002769.txt Below is the NASA News release: July 20, 2011 Trent J. Perrotto Headquarters, Washington trent.j.perro...@nasa.gov 202-358-0321 Ray Villard Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore vill...@stsci.edu 410-338-4514 Karen Randall SETI Institute, Mountain View, Calif. krand...@seti.org 650-960-4537 RELEASE: 11-234 NASA'S HUBBLE DISCOVERS ANOTHER MOON AROUND PLUTO WASHINGTON -- Astronomers using the Hubble Space Telescope discovered a fourth moon orbiting the icy dwarf planet Pluto. The tiny, new satellite, temporarily designated P4, was uncovered in a Hubble survey searching for rings around the dwarf planet. The new moon is the smallest discovered around Pluto. It has an estimated diameter of 8 to 21 miles (13 to 34 km). By comparison, Charon, Pluto's largest moon, is 648 miles (1,043 km) across, and the other moons, Nix and Hydra, are in the range of 20 to 70 miles in diameter (32 to 113 km). "I find it remarkable that Hubble's cameras enabled us to see such a tiny object so clearly from a distance of more than 3 billion miles (5 billion km)," said Mark Showalter of the SETI Institute in Mountain View, Calif., who led this observing program with Hubble. The finding is a result of ongoing work to support NASA's New Horizons mission, scheduled to fly through the Pluto system in 2015. The mission is designed to provide new insights about worlds at the edge of our solar system. Hubble's mapping of Pluto's surface and discovery of its satellites have been invaluable to planning for New Horizons' close encounter. "This is a fantastic discovery," said New Horizons' principal investigator Alan Stern of the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colo. "Now that we know there's another moon in the Pluto system, we can plan close-up observations of it during our flyby." The new moon is located between the orbits of Nix and Hydra, which Hubble discovered in 2005. Charon was discovered in 1978 at the U.S. Naval Observatory and first resolved using Hubble in 1990 as a separate body from Pluto. The dwarf planet's entire moon system is believed to have formed by a collision between Pluto and another planet-sized body early in the history of the solar system. The smashup flung material that coalesced into the family of satellites observed around Pluto. Lunar rocks returned to Earth from the Apollo missions led to the theory that our moon was the result of a similar collision between Earth and a Mars-sized body 4.4 billion years ago. Scientists believe material blasted off Pluto's moons by micrometeoroid impacts may form rings around the dwarf planet, but the Hubble photographs have not detected any so far. "This surprising observation is a powerful reminder of Hubble's ability as a general purpose astronomical observatory to make astounding, unintended discoveries," said Jon Morse, astrophysics division director at NASA Headq
Re: [meteorite-list] Hubble Space Telescope discovers 4th moonaround Pluto
even Goofy... Goofy, a humanoid cartoon Dog, has a canine cartoon Dog, Pluto, as a pet. You know, even when I was a kid, that bothered me. How can Pluto (the planet) have Goofy (the satellite) as a moon? That's just piling one craziness on top of another. Goofy is not a mythological name, as required; the idea is just... goofy. Since the new satellite is a 3-pixel blob, why not just call it Spot? I respect the right of discoverers to name the object (by changing the name slightly as was done with Nyx=>Nix One should bear in mind that there may well be many more moons of Pluto waiting to be discovered. Thankfully that list of the offspring of Nix (Nyx) is very long. Here it is: AEthyr, Hemera, Momus, Moros, Oizys, Geras, Thanatos, Hypnos, Charon, Apate, Philotes, Eris, Morphius, Epiales, Icelus, Phobetor, Aegle, Arethusa, Erytheia, Hesperia, Lipara, Asterope, Chrysothemis, Klotho, Lakhesis, Atropos... Bring on the Moons! Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: "Carl 's" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hubble Space Telescope discovers 4th moonaround Pluto How should S/2011 (134340) 1 be called? Any suggestions... I took a look at Wiki and saw names like Fifi, Dinah and even Goofy. Might work. Carl2 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Is Vesta Mong Nong?
Today's Dawn photo: A lot more little craters visible but still nothing over ~20 mile. What seems to be an ancient 50-mile crater has a fully illuminated vertical side, (not sloped like a crater wall). Disdurbed terrain below the 12-mile-high cliff makes it look like a "slump" feature. IF Vesta is hard basalt rock, how could it SLUMP? And the illuminated cliff-face is high albedo, "burnout" white, like ICE. (A spot check shows the actual pixel value is 180 out of 256 grays, a "30%" gray, still dam bright for basalt. On the (right) side most fully illuminated, apparent "craters" with very dark bottoms and albedo rims of no apparent height. Filled with dark lava? Flooded craters as are seen on other bodies? Many "gouges" revealed on the left, at lower sun-angles, are sinuous, like rilles. More lava flows?. Why no recent-ish craters bigger than 20 miles? I love a mystery. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: "brian burrer" To: Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:57 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Is Vesta Mong Nong? The new photo of Vesta resembles a giant Mong Nong tektite- I did not expect to see so many layers. Happy hunting, Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Vesta is NOT a "protoplanet"
Hi, Rob, List, The term I see NASA using most is "planetary embryo" in the context of "the last surviving planetary embryo." I suppose you could say that an object can only be a planetary embryo while planets are accreting, so maybe "last surviving" should be "the former planetary embryo known as Vesta" (rather like the star "formerly known as Prince"). The term comes from the Nebular Hypothesis in which a forming star is surrounded by a "protoplanetary disk," the disk from which ALL its planets will form. Later, there was a wrinkle of the Nebular Hypothesis in which they thought that the gas giants and their satellite systems formed out of a "protoplanetary disk" all their own, inside the overall protoplanetary disk and at the center of which was a "protoplanet." That use of protoplanet in this contest would only apply to a gas giant massed body, not a puny Earth or Vesta. The term "planetary embryo" comes from the Accretion Hypothesis but "protoplanet" seems to be used inter- changeably with it, as in: "Protoplanets are large planetary embryos within protoplanetary discs that have undergone internal melting to produce differentiated interiors." This, next to a picture of Vesta, which fits that definition (sort if) by being differentiated, although it not up to 1000 kilometers in size (another criterion): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_embryo It further sets forth: "In the inner Solar System, the three protoplanets to survive more-or-less intact are the asteroids 1 Ceres, 2 Pallas, and 4 Vesta. Kuiper-belt dwarf planets have also been referred to as protoplanets. Because iron meteorites have been found on Earth, it is deemed likely that there once were other metal-cored protoplanets in the asteroid belt that since have been disrupted and that are the source of these meteorites." Under this definition of protoplanet, Vesta would be a planetesimal still, because it's smaller than the 1000-kilometer lower limit for a protoplanet. Then, planetary embryos would be planetesimals under 1000 kilometers and protoplanets are planetesimals above 1000 kilometers. Presumably, all asteroids would be planetesimals no matter what size they are or protoplanets if their big enough no matter what shape they are, and presumably, all asteroids are either planetesimals or protoplanets unless they are round or in hydrostatic equilibrium and would be planets no matter what size they are unless they are cheating by being squishy to be round or unless they are broken pieces of something that once was round... This is insane. Rob clearly seems to think you can only BE a planetesimal or a protoplanet while the system is forming and if you get left out of the final product, what are you? I see Vesta sitting there saying, "You doan unnerstand, I cudda been a contender." Under this consideration, there are NO planetesimals or protoplanets at all, accretion being a thing of the past, so let's just dust our hands and never speak of this again. On the other hand, NASA needs all the self-service it can get, poor baby, got no spacecraft, hafta take Russian taxis everywhere it goes... Why not humor them? And while we're complaining, I want to address that "ancient battered surface" cliché. Nobody doubts the HED's come from the Vestoids, and nobody doubts that the Vestoids are the debris of that absolutely gigantic South Pole Crater hit so often ascribed to the "ancient battered surface." But all you have to do is examine the shock-reset ages of Vestoid chunks to date that huge hit, and it is therefore LESS than a billion years old. It's not ancient at all. And since that so-called ancient feature is overlayed with clear lava flow formations, there must have been active magmatism on Vesta more recently than that. The crater size distribution (when the counters finish) will likely show a youngish surface, so let's ease up on all that "pristine from the dawn of the solar system" talk. This is all tourist talk of Vesta, as the boat pulls into the harbor and we get a first glance. The real work is yet to be done on the "former protoplanet (or perhaps planetesimal or planetary embryo) now known as Vesta." Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: "Rob Matson" To: "John Lutzon" ; Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:19 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Vesta is NOT a "protoplanet" Hi John, Just a gentle request to resist the urge to parrot NASA's erroneous (and mildly self-serving) labeling of Vesta as a "protoplanet". Vesta will never evolve into a planet via accretion, so while one might have optimistically called it a protoplanet 4+ billion years ago, that window of opportunity has long since close
