Re: Is there a need for Data::Find::XPath?
On 1 Dec 2010, at 12:31, Paul Bennett wrote: On the other hand, the docs for Data::Find read like something rather close to what I'd need. Would there be community interest in a module that was API-identical to Data::Find, except that it took XPath-like expressions instead of (or as well as, in some way, maybe?) the search criteria that that module takes? Just struck me, while typing this out: Would I rather be better off trying to add support for XPath-like expressions to Data::Find and submitting a patch? Maybe some kind of Data::Find::Criteria:: namespace, objects of subclasses of which (such as Data::Find::Criteria::XPath, Data::Find::Criteria::Disgronifier, or whatever) could be fed as the search criteria to Data::Find? There'd need to be some cleverness in the API of those subclasses, but I reckon it's non-magical cleverness. It occurred to me when I was writing Data::Find that xpath would be useful - so yes, absolutely - patches welcome, thanks :) It's on github: git://github.com/AndyA/Data--Find.git The easiest thing (for me :) is if you clone it on github and then issue a pull request when you're done. -- Andy Armstrong, Hexten
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
To add my five cents, the thing that hurts me the most is that Perl is not an accepted language when it comes to the differnet new platforms. Our work has adopted Drupal as a CMS and it's written in PHP. It would be awesome if it was written in Perl, but as someone else posted in this thread, we can pick up languages pretty easily (better than foreign languages, no? ;)) and be productive in a few weeks. I'm also attracted to the new Android and iPad platforms, but there's no Perl there, either. There's no Perl when it comes to creating client-side web applications (using JavaScript). IMHO, Perl is getting relegated to server-side/backend applications and when more power is getting brought to the front, it's losing mindshare/focus. - Jason http://use.perl.org/~Purdy/journal/31280 On 11/24/2010 07:01 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote: The other day I was at a client that uses Perl in part of their system and we talked a bit about the language and how we try to promote it at various events. Their Perl person then told me he would not use Perl now for a large application because: 1) Threads do not work well - they are better in Python and in Java. 2) Using signals and signal handlers regularly crashes perl. 3) He also mentioned that he thinks the OO system of Perl is a hack - that the objects are hash refs and there is no privacy. So I wonder what hurts *you* the most in Perl? Gabor -- Gabor Szabo http://szabgab.com/ Perl Ecosystem Group http://perl-ecosystem.org/
Re: Permissions Problem (was: Failed: PAUSE indexer report KTHAKORE/SDL-2.524.tar.gz)
Thank you, My autocomplete failed on that. I thought I had sent it to modu...@perl.org On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 08:24 -0500, Jonathan Yu wrote: Kartik, As it says in the original mail from the PAUSE indexer, you should be contacting the PAUSE admins about this -- e.g. modu...@perl.org Cheers, Jonathan On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Kartik Thakore ... wrote: Hello Folks, My co-maint has gone on a vacation to Scotland, which would be awesome but he has perms on one of the package in the SDL module. SDLx::Text in this case. Can someone provide me access for this ? Status: Permission missing == module: SDLx::Text version: undef in file: lib/SDLx/Text.pm status: Not indexed because permission missing. Current registered primary maintainer is FROGGS. Hint: you can always find the legitimate maintainer(s) on PAUSE under View Permissions. Thanks -- Kartik Thakore kthak...@cpan.org -- Forwarded message -- From: PAUSE upl...@pause.perl.org To: thakore.kar...@gmail.com, andreas.koenig.gmwojprw+pa...@franz.ak.mind.de Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:03:23 +0100 Subject: Failed: PAUSE indexer report KTHAKORE/SDL-2.524.tar.gz The following report has been written by the PAUSE namespace indexer. Please contact modu...@perl.org if there are any open questions. Id User: KTHAKORE (Kartik Thakore) Distribution file: SDL-2.524.tar.gz Number of files: 331 *.pm files: 82 README: SDL-2.524/README META.yml: SDL-2.524/META.yml YAML-Parser: YAML::XS 0.32 META-driven index: yes Timestamp of file: Tue Nov 30 18:01:41 2010 UTC Time of this run: Tue Nov 30 18:03:23 2010 UTC Status of this distro: Permission missing = The following packages (grouped by status) have been found in the distro: Status: Permission missing == module: SDLx::Text version: undef in file: lib/SDLx/Text.pm status: Not indexed because permission missing. Current registered primary maintainer is FROGGS. Hint: you can always find the legitimate maintainer(s) on PAUSE under View Permissions. Status: Successfully indexed module: SDL version: 2.524 in file: lib/SDL.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Audio version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Audio.pm status: indexed module: SDL::AudioCVT version: undef in file: lib/SDL/AudioCVT.pm status: indexed module: SDL::AudioSpec version: undef in file: lib/SDL/AudioSpec.pm status: indexed module: SDL::CD version: undef in file: lib/SDL/CD.pm status: indexed module: SDL::CDROM version: undef in file: lib/SDL/CDROM.pm status: indexed module: SDL::CDTrack version: undef in file: lib/SDL/CDTrack.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Color version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Color.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Config version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Config.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Constants version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Constants.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Cursor version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Cursor.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Event version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Event.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Events version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Events.pm status: indexed module: SDL::GFX version: undef in file: lib/SDL/GFX.pm status: indexed module: SDL::GFX::BlitFunc version: undef in file: lib/SDL/GFX/BlitFunc.pm status: indexed module: SDL::GFX::FPSManager version: undef in file: lib/SDL/GFX/FPSManager.pm status: indexed module: SDL::GFX::Framerate version: undef in file: lib/SDL/GFX/Framerate.pm status: indexed module: SDL::GFX::ImageFilter version: undef in file: lib/SDL/GFX/ImageFilter.pm status: indexed module: SDL::GFX::Primitives version: undef in file: lib/SDL/GFX/Primitives.pm status: indexed module: SDL::GFX::Rotozoom version: undef in file: lib/SDL/GFX/Rotozoom.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Image version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Image.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Internal::Loader version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Internal/Loader.pm status: indexed module: SDL::Joystick version: undef in file: lib/SDL/Joystick.pm status: indexed module: SDL::MPEG version: undef in file: lib/SDL/MPEG.pm
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On 01/12/2010 07:37, Bill Ward wrote: I think Perl 6 may be the death of Perl. I think it's Perl's last hope. I think minds and time spent on slow Perl 6 ish things like Moose for Perl 5 will be the death of Perl. It's already at least five years too late to make any real impact as a new version of Perl. Maybe if it is given a different name and not presented as being a new version of Perl, but instead a whole new language that is an outgrowth of the Perl community (the way Ruby is) then it might have a shot. I only ever heard Perl programmers talking about Ruby. Overall I wouldn't say it's uptake is good at all. But really, it boils down to marketing. Perl has no marketing behind it, and in fact most of the people in the Perl community seem to view marketing as beneath them. Here there are two very, very valid points. Some attitudes of key community members drastically affect the way Perl is promoted and new members are treated. Perl needs a lot, lot more marketing; I only see this coming through Perl 6. No matter what's added to Perl 5, it's still the old language with awkward objects or at best, very slow trying to be Perl 6 style objects. I think much of what Octavian said is right on the button. Lyle
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Lyle wrote: On 01/12/2010 07:37, Bill Ward wrote: I think Perl 6 may be the death of Perl. I think it's Perl's last hope. I think minds and time spent on slow Perl 6 ish things like Moose for Perl 5 will be the death of Perl. This is a ridiculous statement. You seem to assume that the people who work on Moose would otherwise be putting all their energy into Perl 6, if not for Moose. I can't speak for the other people who work on Moose, but I know that I wouldn't. I have nothing against Perl 6, and I look forward to using it in the future. However, right now, Perl 5 meets my needs far better than Perl 6 (a mature language with a large set of libraries available). If Moose didn't exist I'd still be putting my energy into Perl 5 development of some sort. We hear the same argument in reverse that people should work on Perl 5 instead of Perl 6, as if the people who are working on Perl 6 would _of course_ be working on Perl 5 if 6 didn't exist. There's no reason to think this is true, and many reasons to think it's not. Many Perl 6 people never contributed to Perl 5 the way they do with 6. If anything, I think the back and forth between 5 and 6 has helped both languages quite a bit. The work Stevan did on the Perl 6 object system has led to Moose. The work on Moose has (I hope) influenced the actual implementation of the Perl 6 object system. If _you_ think Perl 6 is Perl's last hope, than I strongly encourage you to get involved, but please don't shit on other people's work. -dave /* http://VegGuide.org http://blog.urth.org Your guide to all that's veg House Absolute(ly Pointless) */
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On 01/12/2010 16:01, Dave Rolsky wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Lyle wrote: On 01/12/2010 07:37, Bill Ward wrote: I think Perl 6 may be the death of Perl. I think it's Perl's last hope. I think minds and time spent on slow Perl 6 ish things like Moose for Perl 5 will be the death of Perl. If _you_ think Perl 6 is Perl's last hope, than I strongly encourage you to get involved, but please don't shit on other people's work. I wasn't *shitting* as you put it, on other peoples work. At least no more so than Bill's original comment about Perl 6. I expressed my opinion only and should be free to do so. Don't take things so personally. I haven't seen moose bring any new programmers to Perl; I've only seen excitement about it from some Perl 5 developers, I've seen it cause frustrations for others. The ones I've seen excited about it have mostly been so due to the belief that it's a step towards Perl 6, allowing them to learn some Perl 6 in advance. Note the language again there, I said I've only seen, not there aren't any. I'm not one to blindly follow popular opinions. I can talk from my own experiences and perceptions only. For me Moose is a real pain, mostly due to performance and Octavian's point: - Another thing that hurts in Perl and which is also a reason why many programmers don't like Perl is that it is not possible to install an application to a server by just uploading the files there and give some permissions, especially if that app uses XS, and not everyone has access to a shell; Lyle
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 08:03:54PM -0800, Jarrod Overson wrote: The inability for an IDE to help me thoroughly refactor code is the biggest problem for me. Can Padre do that yet? And is there a working binary for OS X that I can just download and run without wasting a day fighting against Wx? -- David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information What profiteth a man, if he win a flame war, yet lose his cool?
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Lyle webmas...@cosmicperl.com wrote: I wasn't *shitting* as you put it, on other peoples work. At least no more so than Bill's original comment about Perl 6. I expressed my opinion only and should be free to do so. I already asked Bill in my response to refrain from such comments. I don't think that having freedom of speech means we should not care about the feelings of our fellow Perl mongers and we should not respect their work. Don't take things so personally. I don't think Dave really needs me here but I don't think he took it personally. I think you felt you have a right to trash Moose because Perl 6 was trashed. Can we drop this direction of the discussion now? BTW installing Moose takes some time. It might even be very difficult on a server where you don't have command line access but I never tried that. I don't think that is the source of the problem. I think we had of the difficult installation issue a lot before Moose was developed. With that said, we need solution for that. Gabor
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 7:21 PM, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 08:03:54PM -0800, Jarrod Overson wrote: The inability for an IDE to help me thoroughly refactor code is the biggest problem for me. Can Padre do that yet? In a very limited way. There has been some work providing some refactoring tools and IMHO all of them were already integrated with vim but it is very far from what I wanted. And is there a working binary for OS X that I can just download and run without wasting a day fighting against Wx? Unfortunatelly not. I am now trying again to build an .exe for Windows using PAR. If that is successful then we might have a chance to build similar packages for Linux and OS X.. Regardless if your favorit editor can integrate with external scripts then you can try to integrate the same tools as have been done with vim and we can further cooperate on refactoring tools. Gabor
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Gabor Szabo szab...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Lyle webmas...@cosmicperl.com wrote: I wasn't *shitting* as you put it, on other peoples work. At least no more so than Bill's original comment about Perl 6. I expressed my opinion only and should be free to do so. I already asked Bill in my response to refrain from such comments. I don't think that having freedom of speech means we should not care about the feelings of our fellow Perl mongers and we should not respect their work. I wasn't shitting on Perl 6. I just don't think it stands a snowball's chance in hell of being adopted in place of Perl 5, unless some serious marketing energy is thrown behind it (like getting rid of the Perl name which is more of a liability these days). People will hear Perl 6 and assume it's just a new version of an obsolete language, when really it's almost a whole new language. But I'm not shitting on Perl 6 itself. I think it's got some beautiful ideas in it. But it's been in design/development for so long that it seems like it will always be vaporware, and in the meantime Perl 5 has been neglected. What's called Perl 6 should be a whole new language with a new name, and the things about Perl 5 that are so out of date should have been fixed in that codeline. As for Moose, I have similar concerns. I think it changes the nature of the language too much to be considered Perl, but not enough to be considered a new language. Maybe if Moose was more like a repackaging of Perl with the Moose stuff more tightly integrated, and presented as a new language that's based on and backward-compatible with Perl 5, then maybe it would make more sense. But as it is, it's just Perl with some weird changes to the OO practices that are incompatible with the majority of Perl5 code out there. The technology is fine. But we (collectively, the Perl community) suck at marketing. The perception I hear everywhere I go is that Perl is a dead-end language, and will soon go the way of Fortran or COBOL. It's too late to change that. But maybe if Perl 6 were released under a totally new name it could gain traction the way Ruby has done.
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Bill Ward b...@wards.net wrote: I wasn't shitting on Perl 6. Oh, then sorry for my wording. The technology is fine. But we (collectively, the Perl community) suck at marketing. The perception I hear everywhere I go is that Perl is a dead-end language, and will soon go the way of Fortran or COBOL. It's too late to change that. But maybe if Perl 6 were released under a totally new name it could gain traction the way Ruby has done. Sure, Perl needs some technological improvements and I think people involved in p5p have been doing some nice things lately at an increasing speed. Many modules on CPAN also need improvements. But even what we have today we could achieve much better results if the perception of people was better. With my original question I wanted to know what technological and perception related issues people see. We already got some material but I'd be happy to see more comments. Especially from those who work with people who are not involved in the Perl community. How do your peers and your bosses see Perl? I don't think it is too late. I think we just need to get up and start talking to people outside of the Perl community. That's what I have been trying to push forward with varrying success via the TPF Events group. https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?events Gabor
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
From: Gabor Szabo szab...@gmail.com I am now trying again to build an .exe for Windows using PAR. If that is successful then we might have a chance to build similar packages for Linux and OS X.. Please dont forget about ActivePerl. :-) Thanks. Octavian
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
From: Dave Rolsky auta...@urth.org We hear the same argument in reverse that people should work on Perl 5 instead of Perl 6, as if the people who are working on Perl 6 would _of course_ be working on Perl 5 if 6 didn't exist. There's no reason to think this is true, and many reasons to think it's not. Many Perl 6 people never contributed to Perl 5 the way they do with 6. Maybe there are others that said that, but I have said something related and I want to be more clear. I said that because Perl 6 was announced 10 years ago, in the latest years there were very few Perl 5 books published, so I was referring only to the work of creating books. This is true, but I don't know, maybe I am wrong and there are other reasons for which there are fewer Perl books in the last period, not only because the interest for Perl 5 decreased... Octavian
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Octavian Rasnita wrote: From: Dave Rolsky auta...@urth.org We hear the same argument in reverse that people should work on Perl 5 instead of Perl 6, as if the people who are working on Perl 6 would _of course_ be working on Perl 5 if 6 didn't exist. There's no reason to think this is true, and many reasons to think it's not. Many Perl 6 people never contributed to Perl 5 the way they do with 6. Maybe there are others that said that, but I have said something related and I want to be more clear. I wasn't attributing this idea to you. The idea that Perl 6 has drained development resources from Perl 5 has come up many times over the years. -dave /* http://VegGuide.org http://blog.urth.org Your guide to all that's veg House Absolute(ly Pointless) */
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
2010/12/1 Jason Purdy ja...@journalistic.com: To add my five cents, the thing that hurts me the most is that Perl is not an accepted language when it comes to the differnet new platforms. Our work has adopted Drupal as a CMS and it's written in PHP. It would be awesome if it was written in Perl, but as someone else posted in this thread, we can pick up languages pretty easily (better than foreign languages, no? ;)) and be productive in a few weeks. I'm also attracted to the new Android and iPad platforms, but there's no Perl there, either. Veering off-topic briefly. Perl is available through the android scripting engine http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ although only Java has first-class support with access to all the GUI and other stuff. You can run command-line perl no problem so you can script fetching things to your phone etc. You could also run a server in Perl and interact with it through the browser (I know of at least one python app that does this for android), F There's no Perl when it comes to creating client-side web applications (using JavaScript). IMHO, Perl is getting relegated to server-side/backend applications and when more power is getting brought to the front, it's losing mindshare/focus. - Jason http://use.perl.org/~Purdy/journal/31280 On 11/24/2010 07:01 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote: The other day I was at a client that uses Perl in part of their system and we talked a bit about the language and how we try to promote it at various events. Their Perl person then told me he would not use Perl now for a large application because: 1) Threads do not work well - they are better in Python and in Java. 2) Using signals and signal handlers regularly crashes perl. 3) He also mentioned that he thinks the OO system of Perl is a hack - that the objects are hash refs and there is no privacy. So I wonder what hurts *you* the most in Perl? Gabor -- Gabor Szabo http://szabgab.com/ Perl Ecosystem Group http://perl-ecosystem.org/
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
2010/12/1 Gabor Szabo szab...@gmail.com: On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Bill Ward b...@wards.net wrote: With my original question I wanted to know what technological and perception related issues people see. We already got some material but I'd be happy to see more comments. Especially from those who work with people who are not involved in the Perl community. How do your peers and your bosses see Perl? Usually bosses don't care (except biased cases with personal preferences), usual points are - how to reach the goal in most efficient way, and how to maintain the solution afterwards. With wide CPAN repository first point could be achieved for certain tasks quickly using Perl. However it becomes a real nightmare afterwards for a second point - maintenance %) Long dependencies of hardly or not-at-all maintained packages are making it really tough to justify the choice when writing support documentation - you need either to fetch and pre-pack all packages, making final solution bloated and redundant, or copy-paste required fragments of code from modules into own lightweight-all-purpose-toolkit module %) Second point also implies using common language in single environment, thus if Perl is already used in some area, it is wise to follow the line. I don't think it is too late. I think we just need to get up and start talking to people outside of the Perl community. That's what I have been trying to push forward with varrying success via the TPF Events group. Frankly this is first time I hear perl is dead and comparing it to long-dead languages seems for me a bit strange. Especially given Perl has production-ready web application container (mod_perl) - such a popular technology nowadays %) -- Looking forward to reading yours. Ruslan N. Marchenko
Re: What hurts you the most in Perl?
Books of this sort in general are fewer due to the web. Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect -Original Message- From: Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 02:14:47 To: Dave Rolskyauta...@urth.org; Lylewebmas...@cosmicperl.com Cc: module-authors@perl.org Subject: Re: What hurts you the most in Perl? From: Dave Rolsky auta...@urth.org We hear the same argument in reverse that people should work on Perl 5 instead of Perl 6, as if the people who are working on Perl 6 would _of course_ be working on Perl 5 if 6 didn't exist. There's no reason to think this is true, and many reasons to think it's not. Many Perl 6 people never contributed to Perl 5 the way they do with 6. Maybe there are others that said that, but I have said something related and I want to be more clear. I said that because Perl 6 was announced 10 years ago, in the latest years there were very few Perl 5 books published, so I was referring only to the work of creating books. This is true, but I don't know, maybe I am wrong and there are other reasons for which there are fewer Perl books in the last period, not only because the interest for Perl 5 decreased... Octavian
