Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
- Original Message - > From: "John Levine" > They sure seem ready to take down the oopper. The installer was sad > when I told him to leave my six-pair copper cable alone even though > nothing is using it now. Sure; ILECs would *love* to deprovision their copper end networks. But that's not necessarily a great idea, societally; always-on dialtone (or, at least, dialtone with a much higher reliability than VoN) can be pretty important. My LECs in Florida seem to manage five 9s pretty handily at the station set; betting FiOS isn't managing that. They *tried* to get permission to do this in NYC after Sandy, and someone (NYPUC?) told them to pound sand; if the customer had copper, you *had* to give it back to them; you could not force them to voice-over-FiOS. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
- Original Message - > From: "Mark Tinka" > On 12/25/20 22:49, Michael Thomas wrote: >> But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the >> brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right? > > Consumer ISP's have realized that they can make money selling Gigabit > services, because the ones who really know how to harness it are few & > far between. By which you mean that they can safely afford to bandwidth-surf again because the average usage is so much lower than the peak? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/26/20 07:32, b...@theworld.com wrote: Another way to phrase the question (which was the subject of much dispute 30 years ago) is: Which would you rather have (I'll use modern speeds): 1gb flat rate 10gb metered Where metered 10gb could cost less than 1gb when you don't use it, or about the same at ~1gb, but more if you use >1gb? It's possible this pricing model is reawakening. Back then I argued the bigger pipe / metered was preferable. Then again it was mostly non-residential. But admittedly most seemed to prefer the lower speed unmetered. They preferred the billing predicatibilty and didn't like the idea that a "power user" (in the residential context that might be "kids") could jack up the bill. I suppose that depends a lot on what the actual prices of a flat-rate 1gb vs a fully saturated 10gb. If it's $50 vs $100/mo perhaps some would say ok I'll risk the $50 overage, if it's $50 vs $500/mo maybe not. It's all the sales & marketing people trying to find new ways to sell the same bandwidth so they can keep getting their annual bonuses. Has nothing to do with trying to move the state-of-the-art forward :-). If the price differential between 1Gbps flat and 10Gbps metered is not that great, many (not all) will prefer the higher bandwidth, especially if it comes with "plenty" of data (say 1TB/month). The customer feels like they are getting more for their money, and the provider knows there is no chance the customer will ever hit 10Gbps, meaning they don't need to roll out network, and can up profits. Today, if I switched providers, for the same amount of money I am paying now, I'd be able to get a 1Gbps service, easy. I don't do it because packet loss (or lack thereof) is more important to me than more bandwidth. The backhaul provider I use is also a customer of mine that I know knows how to run a decent network. I'd not risk potential packet loss by switching to a provider who can give me 5X the bandwidth for the same price, especially because overall performance of the home won't gain much beyond the 200Mbps I currently have. But, as they say, YMMV. Mark.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/26/20 00:32, John Levine wrote: I agree it is odd to make 100/100 the top speed. The fiber service I have from my local non-Bell telco offers 100/100, 500/500, and 1000/1000. FiOS where you can get it goes to 940/880. The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to compete in that particular market. GPON upstream capacity is not symmetrical to the downstream. Above a certain threshold, providers will sell less upload than download, depending on how many customers are provisioned on a given OLT. XG-PON is symmetrical, but not as widely deployed. Providers that deliver services over Active-E do not care. Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 23:22, Niels Bakker wrote: Download times:- 180GB at 100 Mbps: 4 hours 180GB at 1000 Mbps: 23 minutes For a number of reasons, highly unlikely your console will pull at 1Gbps, but yes, it would certainly pull quicker than 100Mbps :-). I'd just get my 4hrs of sleep, but then again, I'm not a gamer :-). Mark.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 23:04, Michael Thomas wrote: I mean, i understand the arm's race, but now it seems to be an arms race for its own sake. It is, because it is hard to be different when all you know is to sell bandwidth. The next level of differentiation is being a fibre provider, and selling large amounts of bandwidth for less, and less, and less. It's a total lack of creativity in the infrastructure space, where the only goal is to maintain customers on the books. One of the mobile operators in South Africa, just last week, launched new data bundles for customers below a certain age. I mean, how many ways can you slice the selling of data because you can't be creative in other ways? Mark.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 22:49, Michael Thomas wrote: But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right? Consumer ISP's have realized that they can make money selling Gigabit services, because the ones who really know how to harness it are few & far between. Mark.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 22:40, Chris Adams wrote: Bandwidth is like disk space - you think "I'll never use all of this", and then the availability changes behavior. Having ability to do more means your behavior changes to utilize more. We don't NEED high speed Internet to download games - we could leave the download running overnight for example - but being able to download big games in minutes means we get to try more games, finding new things to like. I don't disagree with this - having more bandwidth means everyone in the house can do what they want without impacting the other. And that probably makes sense for 500Mbps - 1Gbps of service to the house, which is why there are plenty of CPE and ISP services to solve for that today. 10Gbps, on the other hand, is a real problem to justify... you are more likely to hit device limits than fill up 10Gbps for a basic home. Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
Another way to phrase the question (which was the subject of much dispute 30 years ago) is: Which would you rather have (I'll use modern speeds): 1gb flat rate 10gb metered Where metered 10gb could cost less than 1gb when you don't use it, or about the same at ~1gb, but more if you use >1gb? It's possible this pricing model is reawakening. Back then I argued the bigger pipe / metered was preferable. Then again it was mostly non-residential. But admittedly most seemed to prefer the lower speed unmetered. They preferred the billing predicatibilty and didn't like the idea that a "power user" (in the residential context that might be "kids") could jack up the bill. I suppose that depends a lot on what the actual prices of a flat-rate 1gb vs a fully saturated 10gb. If it's $50 vs $100/mo perhaps some would say ok I'll risk the $50 overage, if it's $50 vs $500/mo maybe not. And today we have bandwidth-shaping in most any router/cpe (or could) so even with the 10gb/metered someone in the house with the password could rate-limit except when they needed it :-) -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
In article <5f11bc55-e3d1-006d-c4c4-0703ff63c...@mtcc.com> you write: >> The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is >> underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to >> compete in that particular market. > >What's weirder is that it's most likely not going to allow them to >retire their copper plant since they are a phone company and i'm fairly >certain that regulations won't allow them to say "get a battery for this >phone dongle" I realize the rules in NY may be different, but my telco supplied fiber modem, which is about the size of a pack of cards, comes with a much larger 12V UPS with a substantial battery. I looked at the specs for the modem and the UPS and it appears that the battery is good for about four days. They sure seem ready to take down the oopper. The installer was sad when I told him to leave my six-pair copper cable alone even though nothing is using it now.
Re: Nashville
Additional AT statement (5 pm CST) https://about.att.com/pages/disaster_relief/nashville.html We’re putting the full-force of our disaster recovery efforts into responding to this morning’s explosion in Nashville, including bringing in regional resources and our National Disaster Recovery teams. Power is essential to restoring wireless and wireline communications and we are working with law enforcement to get access to our equipment and make needed repairs. Given the damage to our facility it will take time to restore service. We have already rerouted significant traffic from this facility and are bringing in other equipment, including numerous portable cell sites to the area. There are serious logistical challenges to working in a disaster area and we will make measurable progress in the hours and days ahead. We're grateful for the work of law enforcement as they investigate this event while enabling us to restore service for our customers. We'll continue to provide updates here as our recovery progresses.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 2:32 PM, John Levine wrote: In article <3b0bc95b-c741-7561-1692-75fac74d5...@mtcc.com> you write: I'd definitely appreciate symmetric, or at least better in upstream. Obviously zoom and all of that has made a lie of us not needing upstream. It would make cloud based "filesystems" more feasible too. But the larger point is why bother going to all of that effort if you're just going roll it out with low bandwidth? I mean, 100Mbps isn't even competitive with cable these days. But they're a somewhat crazy amalgam. They have POTS everywhere, cable tv everywhere, cable IP in some areas and DSL in others. I wish I knew somebody there to talk to this about because it's really odd. I agree it is odd to make 100/100 the top speed. The fiber service I have from my local non-Bell telco offers 100/100, 500/500, and 1000/1000. FiOS where you can get it goes to 940/880. The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to compete in that particular market. What's weirder is that it's most likely not going to allow them to retire their copper plant since they are a phone company and i'm fairly certain that regulations won't allow them to say "get a battery for this phone dongle". Given PG's antics, this is no small thing. I assume it would allow them to retire their cable plant eventually, but then they become yet another over the top provider without adding much if any value. But they are an odd and very old family run company, so who knows what's going on in the C-Suite. Mike
Re: 10g residential CPE
Niels, CoD is just a game. Doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things if you have to wait a day to play it, unless you’re willing to pay 2x more for 10x speed. Then you’re entitled to the higher speed — occasionally. As George Carlin said about video games, “Just what we need: a generation of idiots with good eye-hand coordination. “ :) -mel via cell > On Dec 25, 2020, at 1:24 PM, Niels Bakker wrote: > > * m...@mtcc.com (Michael Thomas) [Fri 25 Dec 2020, 21:18 CET]: >>> On 12/25/20 11:34 AM, Niels Bakker wrote: >>> Gigabit speeds are about bursting. Foreground activities like gaming, >>> making online reservations, streaming won't take more than that, but >>> anything faster is really nice to have when you're waiting for the odd >>> software download to finish. (You may have noticed that they've been >>> increasing in size this year.) >> >> Wouldn't cpe that implements proper queuing disciplines be a lot simpler and >> cheaper? I got bit by that once when a friend was downloading a game and it. >> I flashed a router with openwrt and fiddled with their queuing nobs and >> everything was golden. > > Let's take an example from earlier this year when Activision shipped a 180GB > update to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare when they introduced the War Zone BR > game mode update. > > Download times:- > > 180GB at 100 Mbps: 4 hours > 180GB at 1000 Mbps: 23 minutes > > How will proper queuing disciplines possibly help here? > > >-- Niels.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
In article <3b0bc95b-c741-7561-1692-75fac74d5...@mtcc.com> you write: >I'd definitely appreciate symmetric, or at least better in upstream. >Obviously zoom and all of that has made a lie of us not needing >upstream. It would make cloud based "filesystems" more feasible too. > >But the larger point is why bother going to all of that effort if you're >just going roll it out with low bandwidth? I mean, 100Mbps isn't even >competitive with cable these days. But they're a somewhat crazy amalgam. >They have POTS everywhere, cable tv everywhere, cable IP in some areas >and DSL in others. I wish I knew somebody there to talk to this about >because it's really odd. I agree it is odd to make 100/100 the top speed. The fiber service I have from my local non-Bell telco offers 100/100, 500/500, and 1000/1000. FiOS where you can get it goes to 940/880. The obvious guess is that their upstream bandwidth is underprovisioned, or maybe they figure 100/100 is all they need to compete in that particular market. -- Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: 10g residential CPE
> On Dec 25, 2020, at 9:16 PM, Mark Tinka wrote: >> I Have an RB4011 and while it does work very well for the price it is not >> really practical for the sort of people who don't reside on this list. > Which says what about 10Gbps-in-the-home practicality? Mark is right, you’re wrong. 10G home service is great. Everybody I know here in Paris has it. There’s just no particularly reason to drop down to 1G, for the EUR 10/month difference. -Bill signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
fre. 25. dec. 2020 21.49 skrev Michael Thomas : > > On 12/25/20 12:40 PM, Chris Adams wrote: > > > > The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while > > continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to > > latency). Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be > > streaming audio and/or video at the same time. Do we fill up a gigabit? > > No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less. > > But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the brute > force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right? > > It seems really surprising after almost a decade of discovery of > bufferbloat that most CPE are still doing tail drops. > > Mike > For download that queue discipline needs to be implemented at the ISP end. It is just a week or so since I asked what other operators were doing with that and I got very few replies. So maybe we can assume the answer is not much. I also learned that the big iron providers J and C only implements tail drop and WRED. That's it. It is not sufficient to provide good service, so the only option is to throw more bandwidth at the problem. If the operator wants to keep bufferbloat low you will not be able to utilise your 1 Gbps to that speed when downloading from distant servers. But with the same bufferbloat measured in milliseconds you will still have a 10x bigger buffer and thus 10x bigger bandwidth delay product. That translates to 10x the speed. That speed might just be 100 Mbps on your 1000 Mbps connection. But it would have been just 10 Mbps on a 100 Mbps... Regards Baldur >
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 1:25 PM, John Levine wrote: In article you write: I'm fine with "free stuff". But it seems we've hit saturation on a number of front like camera and screen pixels, ghz of cpu, TB's of disk, Gb's of netio for residential stuff. My provider on the other (Volcano Internet) doesn't seem to have got this memo though. They are building out fiber and the rate sheet is the same as for DSL. I mean, wtf? How fast is your DSL? It looks like your provider's DSL tops out at 50/5, which I suspect is not available everywhere, while fiber starts at 25/25 and goes to 100/100. I rather like the 100/100 symmetrical bandwidth on my fiber. I can assure you that 100/100 feels noticably faster than 25/5 even though nothing here would use even 25Mb sustained. They max out at 50, which i might be able to get since I think the pedestal is about 1/2 mile away. When I was with Sonic they have that Fusion product but I think I could only get 50 because I was about 9000' from the CO in SF. I'd definitely appreciate symmetric, or at least better in upstream. Obviously zoom and all of that has made a lie of us not needing upstream. It would make cloud based "filesystems" more feasible too. But the larger point is why bother going to all of that effort if you're just going roll it out with low bandwidth? I mean, 100Mbps isn't even competitive with cable these days. But they're a somewhat crazy amalgam. They have POTS everywhere, cable tv everywhere, cable IP in some areas and DSL in others. I wish I knew somebody there to talk to this about because it's really odd. Mike
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 1:22 PM, Niels Bakker wrote: Wouldn't cpe that implements proper queuing disciplines be a lot simpler and cheaper? I got bit by that once when a friend was downloading a game and it. I flashed a router with openwrt and fiddled with their queuing nobs and everything was golden. Let's take an example from earlier this year when Activision shipped a 180GB update to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare when they introduced the War Zone BR game mode update. Download times:- 180GB at 100 Mbps: 4 hours 180GB at 1000 Mbps: 23 minutes How will proper queuing disciplines possibly help here? The queuing disciplines allow you to not completely hog the bandwidth so that other people can use the net too. Tail drop seems to rule the roost to this day with CPE so it must be a real joy when you're downloading them. Mike
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
In article you write: >I'm fine with "free stuff". But it seems we've hit saturation on a >number of front like camera and screen pixels, ghz of cpu, TB's of disk, >Gb's of netio for residential stuff. > >My provider on the other (Volcano Internet) doesn't seem to have got >this memo though. They are building out fiber and the rate sheet is the >same as for DSL. I mean, wtf? How fast is your DSL? It looks like your provider's DSL tops out at 50/5, which I suspect is not available everywhere, while fiber starts at 25/25 and goes to 100/100. I rather like the 100/100 symmetrical bandwidth on my fiber. I can assure you that 100/100 feels noticably faster than 25/5 even though nothing here would use even 25Mb sustained. R's, John
Re: 10g residential CPE
* m...@mtcc.com (Michael Thomas) [Fri 25 Dec 2020, 21:18 CET]: On 12/25/20 11:34 AM, Niels Bakker wrote: Gigabit speeds are about bursting. Foreground activities like gaming, making online reservations, streaming won't take more than that, but anything faster is really nice to have when you're waiting for the odd software download to finish. (You may have noticed that they've been increasing in size this year.) Wouldn't cpe that implements proper queuing disciplines be a lot simpler and cheaper? I got bit by that once when a friend was downloading a game and it. I flashed a router with openwrt and fiddled with their queuing nobs and everything was golden. Let's take an example from earlier this year when Activision shipped a 180GB update to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare when they introduced the War Zone BR game mode update. Download times:- 180GB at 100 Mbps: 4 hours 180GB at 1000 Mbps: 23 minutes How will proper queuing disciplines possibly help here? -- Niels.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 12:53 PM, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Michael Thomas said: On 12/25/20 12:40 PM, Chris Adams wrote: The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to latency). Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be streaming audio and/or video at the same time. Do we fill up a gigabit? No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less. But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right? Queueing doesn't get me my next game in time to play it tonight. I've always seen general queueing as a work-around for "not enough bandwidth and can't add more"... but when more is available, why not just use more? I'm fine with "free stuff". But it seems we've hit saturation on a number of front like camera and screen pixels, ghz of cpu, TB's of disk, Gb's of netio for residential stuff. My provider on the other (Volcano Internet) doesn't seem to have got this memo though. They are building out fiber and the rate sheet is the same as for DSL. I mean, wtf? Why would I want the probable expense of getting it from the curb (assumedly) to my home if it's for the same price? Even if it's ftth at their expense, it seems rather pointless. I mean, i understand the arm's race, but now it seems to be an arms race for its own sake. Mike
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
Once upon a time, Michael Thomas said: > On 12/25/20 12:40 PM, Chris Adams wrote: > >The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while > >continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to > >latency). Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be > >streaming audio and/or video at the same time. Do we fill up a gigabit? > >No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less. > > But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the > brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right? Queueing doesn't get me my next game in time to play it tonight. I've always seen general queueing as a work-around for "not enough bandwidth and can't add more"... but when more is available, why not just use more? -- Chris Adams
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 12:40 PM, Chris Adams wrote: The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to latency). Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be streaming audio and/or video at the same time. Do we fill up a gigabit? No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less. But using the right queuing disciplines it a lot cheaper than the brute force and ignorance of just upping the bandwidth, right? It seems really surprising after almost a decade of discovery of bufferbloat that most CPE are still doing tail drops. Mike
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
Once upon a time, Michael Thomas said: > On 12/25/20 11:39 AM, Cory Sell wrote: > >I saturate my 1G connection most during game downloads, file > >downloads/uploads, full backup uploads, etc. > > > >I also self-host a lot of services for personal use and having > >that peak speed is really nice when you need it. It also had no > >traffic limit per month which is my biggest complaint about the > >lower tier services and also a huge complaint I have with regards > >to the direction that residential services are moving towards. > > Obviously for downloads it's nice, but how often is that happening? > A time or two a month max? It seems sort of strange the providers > would build out infrastructure for such a niche activity. With an Xbox Game Pass subscription, there are a ton of games available for play at no additional cost (with some games being added and removed monthly). My group of Xbox friends will regularly look at the list and say "let's try this one" - it might be a few gig or a 60GB or more download (I've got a few games over 100GB). We might play it for 10 minutes, decide it isn't to our liking, delete it, and try another game. I think the highest Xbox download rate I've seen is around 350Mbps (with a wired gig link to the Xbox) on my gig home service. The other aspect of it is that we're doing these downloads while continuing to play other games and chat (both things sensitive to latency). Some have family/roommates in the home, so they may be streaming audio and/or video at the same time. Do we fill up a gigabit? No, probably not... but we'd notice if we had a lot less. Bandwidth is like disk space - you think "I'll never use all of this", and then the availability changes behavior. Having ability to do more means your behavior changes to utilize more. We don't NEED high speed Internet to download games - we could leave the download running overnight for example - but being able to download big games in minutes means we get to try more games, finding new things to like. -- Chris Adams
Re: Nashville
Can confirm internet service in Kentucky is being affected. > On Dec 25, 2020, at 3:33 PM, Josh Baird wrote: > > > I think the outage is a bit more widespread than "Nashville and surrounding > areas." Most (all?) of Kentucky is without AT cellular service right now. > > I can't say for sure of how many of AT's residential internet customers are > affected, but reports on Twitter indicate it's a pretty significant chunk. I > have AT ASE/metro services here in Kentucky that do not appear to be > affected at this time. > >> On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 2:33 PM Sean Donelan wrote: >> >> AT statement regarding the intentional explosion in Nashville TN >> >> "Service for some customers in Nashville and the surrounding areas may be >> affected by damage to our facilities from the explosion this morning. We >> are in contact with law enforcement and working as quickly and safely as >> possible to restore service." >> >> >> From local news reporting: >> >> A widespread internet outage was reported in Nashville hours after a >> massive explosion downtown. AT internet and phone service was disrupted >> in the area about 12 p.m. Friday. >> >> A handful of local police departments reported the outage was disrupting >> 911 access, including some non-emergency lines, in their jurisdictions. >> >>
Re: Nashville
I think the outage is a bit more widespread than "Nashville and surrounding areas." Most (all?) of Kentucky is without AT cellular service right now. I can't say for sure of how many of AT's residential internet customers are affected, but reports on Twitter indicate it's a pretty significant chunk. I have AT ASE/metro services here in Kentucky that do not appear to be affected at this time. On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 2:33 PM Sean Donelan wrote: > > AT statement regarding the intentional explosion in Nashville TN > > "Service for some customers in Nashville and the surrounding areas may be > affected by damage to our facilities from the explosion this morning. We > are in contact with law enforcement and working as quickly and safely as > possible to restore service." > > > From local news reporting: > > A widespread internet outage was reported in Nashville hours after a > massive explosion downtown. AT internet and phone service was disrupted > in the area about 12 p.m. Friday. > > A handful of local police departments reported the outage was disrupting > 911 access, including some non-emergency lines, in their jurisdictions. > > >
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 21:57, Tony Wicks wrote: I Have an RB4011 and while it does work very well for the price it is not really practical for the sort of people who don't reside on this list. Which says what about 10Gbps-in-the-home practicality? Firstly the single 10G port means you have to connect it via a separate 10G switch and then vlan the external connection to the ONT via another switch port. That would typically be the ISP-facing side. Not your problem. Secondly the physical format is great for those of us who love the idea of a passive cooling rack mount device but not so much the stick it on a shelf masses. Again, where's that 10Gbps practicality for the home? Thirdly the interface has way too many knobs for anyone who does not know what MPLS stands for. Winbox is not too bad. I use it everyday for my little hAP ac2. That said, for US$199, this would be a steal - for the folk that reside on this list. Mark.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 21:45, Michael Thomas wrote: Obviously for downloads it's nice, but how often is that happening? A time or two a month max? It seems sort of strange the providers would build out infrastructure for such a niche activity. Haha, that's the trick; they don't. Because the logic is similar to yours - how often will customers be pushing that much traffic, and if at all, for how long? Most providers will sell 1Gbps without doing anything different to the infrastructure, because they know most customers probably have no clue about the difference between 2.4GHz, 5GHz, 802.11a, b, g, n, ac and ax, Cat-5, 5e and 6, range extenders, boosters, the works. If it were me, I'd do the same, as a 1Gbps consumer provider :-). Heck, it's free money. Mark.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 21:39, Cory Sell via NANOG wrote: I saturate my 1G connection most during game downloads, file downloads/uploads, full backup uploads, etc. Same here, but how often does this happen? I upload my videos to Youtube once a week, if not less, at the most. The kids, more regularly, but the 100Mbps I had before could cope. So what the 200Mbps gets me now is half the time, which isn't saying much. I also self-host a lot of services for personal use and having that peak speed is really nice when you need it. Nothing wrong with that, but if you had 500Mbps on a given Sunday, would you life be half as bad? It also had no traffic limit per month which is my biggest complaint about the lower tier services and also a huge complaint I have with regards to the direction that residential services are moving towards. Marketing at play :-). Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 21:34, Niels Bakker wrote: Gigabit speeds are about bursting. Foreground activities like gaming, making online reservations, streaming won't take more than that, but anything faster is really nice to have when you're waiting for the odd software download to finish. (You may have noticed that they've been increasing in size this year.) Agreed, but how many "Gigabit" speeds are sufficient for bursting. The level of burst is congruent with the the amount of generation all of your devices require at the same time. Then you hit the device limits itself, e.g., wi-fi on the device, wi-fi on the AP, routing on the home gateway, whatever actual backbone the provider has, e.t.c. Then the fact that not all the devices in the home are going to be generating burst data at the same time, or even on the same day. That iOS update may ship to your phone on Monday, but the kids will only get it the following Saturday, for some reason or other. Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 11:34 AM, Niels Bakker wrote: * mark.ti...@seacom.com (Mark Tinka) [Fri 25 Dec 2020, 19:11 CET]: I have a mate up the road who just paid for a 1Gbps FTTH service because it was the same price as a 100Mbps one. He generally lives between 900Kbps and 20Mbps. Gigabit-level FTTH services for the home, I feel, have always been about marketing ploys from providers, because they know there is no practical way users can ever hit those figures from their homes. [...] Gigabit speeds are about bursting. Foreground activities like gaming, making online reservations, streaming won't take more than that, but anything faster is really nice to have when you're waiting for the odd software download to finish. (You may have noticed that they've been increasing in size this year.) Wouldn't cpe that implements proper queuing disciplines be a lot simpler and cheaper? I got bit by that once when a friend was downloading a game and it. I flashed a router with openwrt and fiddled with their queuing nobs and everything was golden. Mark is probably right though: it's just marketing. Who would have believed that bandwidth would just become a marketing ploy. Mike
Re: Nashville
I see the logo now : https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1640386,-86.7765438,3a,34.8y,283.85h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sle30GenlolagNX2ldhGcwQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 Most amazingly, in some, *but not all*, Google street view shots, the ATT logo is completely blurred out! https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1641167,-86.7765941,3a,75y,243.72h,94.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqbURHpzbT63-5U4Avv7cQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:58 AM Matt Brennan wrote: > During their press conference, the Nashville Metro PD put the RV at 166 > 2nd Ave N, which is across the street from the 185 2nd Ave N location. > > It's halfway up the block from 2nd & Commerce. > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 2:36 PM Andy Ringsmuth wrote: > >> Definitely was not at that intersection. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nygTJeu9fU >> >> That’s security camera footage from about 154 2nd Ave. The AT building >> is across the street to the right. >> >> Commerce Street is a block to the left. >> >> >> Andy Ringsmuth >> 5609 Harding Drive >> Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 >> (402) 304-0083 >> a...@andyring.com >> >> “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 >> >> > On Dec 25, 2020, at 1:26 PM, cosmo wrote: >> > >> > The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN >> the RV was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT >> building. If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it >> closer. >> > >> > >> https://www.google.com/maps/search/2nd+and+congress+nashville/@36.1631367,-86.776487,18.42z >> > >> > On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:20 AM Andy Ringsmuth >> wrote: >> > Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this >> clusterblank. >> > >> > It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, >> which would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as >> opposed to a holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little >> curious what that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional >> CLEC/ILEC? >> > >> > No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow >> Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new >> tablet and I’m just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a >> little what and why. >> > >> > >> > Andy Ringsmuth >> > 5609 Harding Drive >> > Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 >> > (402) 304-0083 >> > a...@andyring.com >> > >> > “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 >> > >> >>
RE: 10g residential CPE
I Have an RB4011 and while it does work very well for the price it is not really practical for the sort of people who don't reside on this list. Firstly the single 10G port means you have to connect it via a separate 10G switch and then vlan the external connection to the ONT via another switch port. Secondly the physical format is great for those of us who love the idea of a passive cooling rack mount device but not so much the stick it on a shelf masses. Thirdly the interface has way too many knobs for anyone who does not know what MPLS stands for. -Original Message- From: NANOG On Behalf Of Mark Tinka Sent: Friday, 25 December 2020 10:56 pm To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: 10g residential CPE On 12/25/20 08:04, Tony Wicks wrote: > Stand alone RGW's are hard to find, I'd be interested to hear if people have > found anything smaller than the Mikrotik RB4011... Funny, that's the very unit I recommended as well in my previous post to Brandon :-). As reasonably-priced devices that will have half decent working code go (for 10Gbps, no less), it's hard to beat the Tik. I'd still never use them in production, but for home CPE's, you bet I would. Mark.
Re: Nashville
Politico photo seems to have been filtered or dropped. 2nd Attempt: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/25/explosion-downtown-nashville-450448 > On Dec 25, 2020, at 2:42 PM, Rodney Joffe wrote: > > It seems to be here: > > https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1645601,-86.7768622,3a,60y,145.84h,88.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqJHVrYi75RWSsuTlBGAg6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 > > Here’s a link to a photo on Politico that matches: > > Note: Hooters sign on left. > >> On Dec 25, 2020, at 2:33 PM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote: >> >> Definitely was not at that intersection. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nygTJeu9fU >> >> That’s security camera footage from about 154 2nd Ave. The AT building is >> across the street to the right. >> >> Commerce Street is a block to the left. >> >> >> Andy Ringsmuth >> 5609 Harding Drive >> Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 >> (402) 304-0083 >> a...@andyring.com >> >> “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 >> >>> On Dec 25, 2020, at 1:26 PM, cosmo wrote: >>> >>> The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN the >>> RV was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT >>> building. If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it >>> closer. >>> >>> https://www.google.com/maps/search/2nd+and+congress+nashville/@36.1631367,-86.776487,18.42z >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:20 AM Andy Ringsmuth wrote: >>> Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this clusterblank. >>> >>> It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, which >>> would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as opposed to >>> a holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little curious >>> what that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional CLEC/ILEC? >>> >>> No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow >>> Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new >>> tablet and I’m just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a >>> little what and why. >>> >>> >>> Andy Ringsmuth >>> 5609 Harding Drive >>> Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 >>> (402) 304-0083 >>> a...@andyring.com >>> >>> “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 >>> >> >
RE: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
As a power user who now has 4Gb/s FDX at home I can definitively say as an end user you really can’t tell much of different from my previous 1G/0.5Gbs GPON in normal use. However there are a couple of areas that I have noticed a difference – 1. Upstream. On GPON I had 500Mb/s upstream and this is intelligently oversubscribed by the OLT. Large uploads like cloud storage would consume the entire upstream for the duration. While things still worked fine for the duration of the uploads this does have a small affect on other normal operations during this time. With the XGSPON upstream is so large that nothing can fill it no matter what you do. 2. 1G downstream was certainly enough for everything in the house, but with the 4Gbs the bottlenecks are now the hard drives or local LAN connections. It is quite possible for those 2-400Gig Steam downloads to max a 1gig link off the local caches. So in summary the 1G/0.5G GPON is certainly good enough for any home application, but a 2G/2G or higher link means no one user can practically do anything that will affect other users in the house, yes not necessary but it sure is nice. I really think 2.5GBASET in the house is a sweet spot, it is easily/cheaply retrofitted into any workstation with a free USB3 port and run’s on any existing cat5. From: NANOG On Behalf Of Michael Thomas Sent: Saturday, 26 December 2020 8:28 am To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? Mike
Re: Nashville
Ah-ha! Thanks for the correction. So the tandem office is the big red windowless building? On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:51 AM Sean Donelan wrote: > On Fri, 25 Dec 2020, cosmo wrote: > > The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN > the RV > > was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT > > building. If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it > > closer. > > Folks are confusing two different AT buildings in Nashville. The AT > office tower is the showpiece bulding (i.e. "Batman tower") at 333 > Commerce St. > > The AT tandem office (i.e. typical windowless CO) is on Second > Avenue, adjacent to where the explosion occurred. It is also called > "Nashville Main" and the tandem office for central Tennessee. > > > Additional outages are expected because the generators are not working, > and the batteries are running down. > > >
Re: Nashville
On Fri, 25 Dec 2020, cosmo wrote: The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN the RV was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT building. If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it closer. Folks are confusing two different AT buildings in Nashville. The AT office tower is the showpiece bulding (i.e. "Batman tower") at 333 Commerce St. The AT tandem office (i.e. typical windowless CO) is on Second Avenue, adjacent to where the explosion occurred. It is also called "Nashville Main" and the tandem office for central Tennessee. Additional outages are expected because the generators are not working, and the batteries are running down.
Re: Nashville
During their press conference, the Nashville Metro PD put the RV at 166 2nd Ave N, which is across the street from the 185 2nd Ave N location. It's halfway up the block from 2nd & Commerce. On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 2:36 PM Andy Ringsmuth wrote: > Definitely was not at that intersection. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nygTJeu9fU > > That’s security camera footage from about 154 2nd Ave. The AT building > is across the street to the right. > > Commerce Street is a block to the left. > > > Andy Ringsmuth > 5609 Harding Drive > Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 > (402) 304-0083 > a...@andyring.com > > “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 > > > On Dec 25, 2020, at 1:26 PM, cosmo wrote: > > > > The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN > the RV was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT > building. If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it > closer. > > > > > https://www.google.com/maps/search/2nd+and+congress+nashville/@36.1631367,-86.776487,18.42z > > > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:20 AM Andy Ringsmuth > wrote: > > Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this > clusterblank. > > > > It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, > which would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as > opposed to a holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little > curious what that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional > CLEC/ILEC? > > > > No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow > Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new > tablet and I’m just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a > little what and why. > > > > > > Andy Ringsmuth > > 5609 Harding Drive > > Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 > > (402) 304-0083 > > a...@andyring.com > > > > “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 > > > >
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 11:39 AM, Cory Sell wrote: I saturate my 1G connection most during game downloads, file downloads/uploads, full backup uploads, etc. I also self-host a lot of services for personal use and having that peak speed is really nice when you need it. It also had no traffic limit per month which is my biggest complaint about the lower tier services and also a huge complaint I have with regards to the direction that residential services are moving towards. Obviously for downloads it's nice, but how often is that happening? A time or two a month max? It seems sort of strange the providers would build out infrastructure for such a niche activity. Mike
Re: Nashville
It seems to be here: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1645601,-86.7768622,3a,60y,145.84h,88.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqJHVrYi75RWSsuTlBGAg6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 Here’s a link to a photo on Politico that matches: Note: Hooters sign on left. > On Dec 25, 2020, at 2:33 PM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote: > > Definitely was not at that intersection. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nygTJeu9fU > > That’s security camera footage from about 154 2nd Ave. The AT building is > across the street to the right. > > Commerce Street is a block to the left. > > > Andy Ringsmuth > 5609 Harding Drive > Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 > (402) 304-0083 > a...@andyring.com > > “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 > >> On Dec 25, 2020, at 1:26 PM, cosmo wrote: >> >> The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN the RV >> was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT >> building. If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it >> closer. >> >> https://www.google.com/maps/search/2nd+and+congress+nashville/@36.1631367,-86.776487,18.42z >> >> On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:20 AM Andy Ringsmuth wrote: >> Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this clusterblank. >> >> It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, which >> would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as opposed to >> a holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little curious >> what that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional CLEC/ILEC? >> >> No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow >> Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new >> tablet and I’m just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a >> little what and why. >> >> >> Andy Ringsmuth >> 5609 Harding Drive >> Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 >> (402) 304-0083 >> a...@andyring.com >> >> “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 >> >
Re: Nashville
I stand corrected! Maybe there is merit to this theory then. On Fri, Dec 25, 2020, 11:37 AM Andy Ringsmuth wrote: > Definitely was not at that intersection. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nygTJeu9fU > > That’s security camera footage from about 154 2nd Ave. The AT building > is across the street to the right. > > Commerce Street is a block to the left. > > > Andy Ringsmuth > 5609 Harding Drive > Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 > (402) 304-0083 > a...@andyring.com > > “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 > > > On Dec 25, 2020, at 1:26 PM, cosmo wrote: > > > > The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN > the RV was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT > building. If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it > closer. > > > > > https://www.google.com/maps/search/2nd+and+congress+nashville/@36.1631367,-86.776487,18.42z > > > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:20 AM Andy Ringsmuth > wrote: > > Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this > clusterblank. > > > > It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, > which would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as > opposed to a holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little > curious what that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional > CLEC/ILEC? > > > > No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow > Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new > tablet and I’m just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a > little what and why. > > > > > > Andy Ringsmuth > > 5609 Harding Drive > > Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 > > (402) 304-0083 > > a...@andyring.com > > > > “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 > > > >
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
I saturate my 1G connection most during game downloads, file downloads/uploads, full backup uploads, etc. I also self-host a lot of services for personal use and having that peak speed is really nice when you need it. It also had no traffic limit per month which is my biggest complaint about the lower tier services and also a huge complaint I have with regards to the direction that residential services are moving towards. On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 1:27 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > >> On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: >> >>> It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of >>> service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from >>> “true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the >>> former. >> >> Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. > > Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this > sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly > need a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all > tv, etc is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably > upgrade to a 50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us > here, but throw in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't > sufficient let alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? > > Mike
Re: Nashville
The building is an ILEC CO and wire centre. It is the main local transiting interconnect point for voice services in the 470 LATA, and also one of the toll tandems for the region. At 02:18 PM 25/12/2020, Andy Ringsmuth wrote: Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this clusterblank. It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, which would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as opposed to a holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little curious what that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional CLEC/ILEC? No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new tablet and Iâm just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a little what and why. Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 a...@andyring.com âBetter even die free, than to live slaves.â - Frederick Douglas, 1863 -- Clayton Zekelman Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E Windsor, Ontario N8W 1H4 tel. 519-985-8410 fax. 519-985-8409
Re: 10g residential CPE
* mark.ti...@seacom.com (Mark Tinka) [Fri 25 Dec 2020, 19:11 CET]: I have a mate up the road who just paid for a 1Gbps FTTH service because it was the same price as a 100Mbps one. He generally lives between 900Kbps and 20Mbps. Gigabit-level FTTH services for the home, I feel, have always been about marketing ploys from providers, because they know there is no practical way users can ever hit those figures from their homes. [...] Gigabit speeds are about bursting. Foreground activities like gaming, making online reservations, streaming won't take more than that, but anything faster is really nice to have when you're waiting for the odd software download to finish. (You may have noticed that they've been increasing in size this year.) -- Niels.
Re: Nashville
Definitely was not at that intersection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nygTJeu9fU That’s security camera footage from about 154 2nd Ave. The AT building is across the street to the right. Commerce Street is a block to the left. Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 a...@andyring.com “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 > On Dec 25, 2020, at 1:26 PM, cosmo wrote: > > The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN the RV > was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT building. > If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it closer. > > https://www.google.com/maps/search/2nd+and+congress+nashville/@36.1631367,-86.776487,18.42z > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:20 AM Andy Ringsmuth wrote: > Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this clusterblank. > > It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, which > would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as opposed to a > holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little curious what > that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional CLEC/ILEC? > > No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow > Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new > tablet and I’m just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a > little what and why. > > > Andy Ringsmuth > 5609 Harding Drive > Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 > (402) 304-0083 > a...@andyring.com > > “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 >
Re: Nashville
AT statement regarding the intentional explosion in Nashville TN "Service for some customers in Nashville and the surrounding areas may be affected by damage to our facilities from the explosion this morning. We are in contact with law enforcement and working as quickly and safely as possible to restore service." From local news reporting: A widespread internet outage was reported in Nashville hours after a massive explosion downtown. AT internet and phone service was disrupted in the area about 12 p.m. Friday. A handful of local police departments reported the outage was disrupting 911 access, including some non-emergency lines, in their jurisdictions.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 11:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from “true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. Can I ask a really dumb question? Consider it an xmas present. I know this sounds like "nobody needs more than 640k", but how can household possibly need a gig let alone 10g? I'm still on 25mbs DSL, have cut the cord so all tv, etc is over the net. If I really cared and wanted 4k I could probably upgrade to a 50mbs service and be fine. Admittedly it's just the two of us here, but throw in a couple of kids and I still don't see how ~100mbs isn't sufficient let alone 1 or 10G. Am I missing something really stupid? Mike
Re: Nashville
The internet is buzzing with speculation about this. According to CNN the RV was at 2nd and Commerce st, which puts it 1-block away from the ATT building. If it were the target, I'd imagine they would have parked it closer. https://www.google.com/maps/search/2nd+and+congress+nashville/@36.1631367,-86.776487,18.42z On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:20 AM Andy Ringsmuth wrote: > Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this clusterblank. > > It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, which > would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as opposed to > a holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little curious > what that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional CLEC/ILEC? > > No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow > Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new > tablet and I’m just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a > little what and why. > > > Andy Ringsmuth > 5609 Harding Drive > Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 > (402) 304-0083 > a...@andyring.com > > “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863 > >
Nashville
Certainly thankful no serious injuries or fatalities in this clusterblank. It seems the AT building at 185 2nd Ave N may have been a target, which would explain the timing (holiday morning when no one is out, as opposed to a holiday evening when there would be mass casualties). A little curious what that building has. Is it just a big co-lo place? Regional CLEC/ILEC? No earth-shattering revelations here. Admittedly just bored on a slow Christmas Day when my wife is at work (nurse) and kid is playing with a new tablet and I’m just watching the news trying to understand/figure out a little what and why. Andy Ringsmuth 5609 Harding Drive Lincoln, NE 68521-5831 (402) 304-0083 a...@andyring.com “Better even die free, than to live slaves.” - Frederick Douglas, 1863
Re: 10g residential CPE
On Fri, 25 Dec 2020, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: On Thu, 24 Dec 2020, Ben Cannon wrote: Anyone else doing it? Do you like your gear? Haven't tested it myself, but the 10GE residential provider here in Sweden is using some kind of Huawei HGW that typically is used for XGPON but has had its WAN MAC swapped out for 10GBASE-LR use. https://www.sweclockers.com/nyhet/26446-bahnhof-och-huawei-slapper-10-gbit-router-for-hemanvandare You can run it through google translate. Do note that this "news" is from October 2018. -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se
Re: 10g residential CPE
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020, Ben Cannon wrote: Anyone else doing it? Do you like your gear? Haven't tested it myself, but the 10GE residential provider here in Sweden is using some kind of Huawei HGW that typically is used for XGPON but has had its WAN MAC swapped out for 10GBASE-LR use. -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 20:21, Jared Mauch wrote: Think more using your PON network to also serve commercial customers so you don't need high end CPE to hit 1-5Gbps or WDM setups. . This already happens today, because sales folk want to close deals. Whether PON actually works for an Enterprise customer is not their problem. Mark.
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 20:10, Hunter Fuller via NANOG wrote: It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from “true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. Large upstream capacity has always been about aggregation of the downstream. The 100Gbps or 400Gbps backbones we deploy, as operators, are not symmetrical with what our customers buy. Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 20:03, Cory Sell via NANOG wrote: Just because nobody is mentioning it - you can always build a pfSense/VyOS/Vyatta box in whatever form factor you’d prefer. Even can run within a VM if you really want to. Not exactly "home" friendly :-). Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 20:18, Bryan Fields wrote: My point was the gear is not there yet for the non-technical people. And that is saying much... Most TV's, the PS4, the Apple TV, e.t.c., still run at 100Mbps max., offering plenty of 4K services. There clearly is no legitimate use-case for Joe and Jane at their home re: 10Gbps. Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
> On Dec 25, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Bryan Fields wrote: > > 10g to the home is a great idea to think about, it's just not terribly > practical for most customers unless they want to drop 1-2k on routing gear and > nics. This is always changing, but it's going to be a few years until we > reach the right performance and price point. Think more using your PON network to also serve commercial customers so you don't need high end CPE to hit 1-5Gbps or WDM setups.
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 1:03 PM, Cory Sell wrote: > Just because nobody is mentioning it - you can always build a > pfSense/VyOS/Vyatta box in whatever form factor you’d prefer. Even can run > within a VM if you really want to. My point was the gear is not there yet for the non-technical people. Anyone can roll their own router for cheap, but that's a science experiment. It's akin to a WISP in 1998 running karlnet on a pc with wi-lan cards. Sure you can do it, but there's no one to support it. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 12:07 Cory Sell via NANOG wrote: > Just because nobody is mentioning it - you can always build a > pfSense/VyOS/Vyatta box in whatever form factor you’d prefer. Even can run > within a VM if you really want to. > For a CPE, openwrt would also work well. It runs well on a PC-type platform. -- -- Hunter Fuller (they) Router Jockey VBH Annex B-5 +1 256 824 5331 Office of Information Technology The University of Alabama in Huntsville Network Engineering
Re: [External] Re: 10g residential CPE
On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:46 Bryan Fields wrote: > On 12/25/20 4:52 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > > For the home, if you're looking at shipping 10Gbps-based CPE's for under > > US$200, I can't think of anything other than the Tik: > > > > https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_rm > > That has 1 10g port. How can that be a 10g CPE? It would meet some customers’ needs because multiple people could use 1G of service at a time. I think it is interesting to distinguish “>1G CPE” from “true 10G CPE” and I suspect many / most customers are looking for the former. -- -- Hunter Fuller (they) Router Jockey VBH Annex B-5 +1 256 824 5331 Office of Information Technology The University of Alabama in Huntsville Network Engineering
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 19:45, Bryan Fields wrote: That has 1 10g port. How can that be a 10g CPE? Realistically, what are you going to be running at 1.01Gbps inside your home at any given point? Yes, this may or may not be a rhetorical question. so, not 10g :) Show me a single production-level 10Gbps port that runs at 10Gbps :-). Add in some services and I bet it goes down from there. Yes, those are just plain old IP routing numbers. Add IPSec and QoS, the numbers fall to between 20% - 40% of that. The bigger question in all this if you're doing 10g to the residential user, what are they going to use for their home router/NAT device? Even 60 ghz wifi routers top out at like 5 gbit/s, and NAT at this speed means a powerful CPU. 10g to the home is a great idea to think about, it's just not terribly practical for most customers unless they want to drop 1-2k on routing gear and nics. This is always changing, but it's going to be a few years until we reach the right performance and price point. Well, the initial question is what is going to drive that kind of capacity in a home setting? Unless you are providing some kind of service at some kind of scale, I just don't see homes blowing through 10Gbps, never mind 1Gbps. I just bumped my FTTH service up from 100Mbps to 200Mbps, and aside from faster Youtube uploads for my DJ sets, I'm struggling to fill it :-). I have a mate up the road who just paid for a 1Gbps FTTH service because it was the same price as a 100Mbps one. He generally lives between 900Kbps and 20Mbps. Gigabit-level FTTH services for the home, I feel, have always been about marketing ploys from providers, because they know there is no practical way users can ever hit those figures from their homes. But because users want to "feel good" and "brag" about their Gigabit home connectivity, they'll pay for it. Heck, if I were a consumer ISP, I'd do it too :-). Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
Just because nobody is mentioning it - you can always build a pfSense/VyOS/Vyatta box in whatever form factor you’d prefer. Even can run within a VM if you really want to. Regards, Cory On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 11:45 AM, Bryan Fields wrote: > On 12/25/20 4:52 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: >> For the home, if you're looking at shipping 10Gbps-based CPE's for under >> US$200, I can't think of anything other than the Tik: >> >> https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_rm > > That has 1 10g port. How can that be a 10g CPE? > >> They claim: >> >> - 2.6Gbps forwarding for 64-byte packets. >> - 7.8Gbps forwarding for 512-byte packets. >> - 9.7Gbps forwarding for 1,518-byte packets. > > so, not 10g :) > > Add in some services and I bet it goes down from there. > > The bigger question in all this if you're doing 10g to the residential user, > what are they going to use for their home router/NAT device? Even 60 ghz wifi > routers top out at like 5 gbit/s, and NAT at this speed means a powerful CPU. > > 10g to the home is a great idea to think about, it's just not terribly > practical for most customers unless they want to drop 1-2k on routing gear and > nics. This is always changing, but it's going to be a few years until we > reach the right performance and price point. > > -- > Bryan Fields > > 727-409-1194 - Voice > http://bryanfields.net
Weekly Routing Table Report
This is an automated weekly mailing describing the state of the Internet Routing Table as seen from APNIC's router in Japan. The posting is sent to APOPS, NANOG, AfNOG, SANOG, PacNOG, SAFNOG TZNOG, MENOG, BJNOG, SDNOG, CMNOG, LACNOG and the RIPE Routing WG. Daily listings are sent to bgp-st...@lists.apnic.net For historical data, please see http://thyme.rand.apnic.net. If you have any comments please contact Philip Smith . Routing Table Report 04:00 +10GMT Sat 26 Dec, 2020 Report Website: http://thyme.rand.apnic.net Detailed Analysis: http://thyme.rand.apnic.net/current/ Analysis Summary BGP routing table entries examined: 834627 Prefixes after maximum aggregation (per Origin AS): 319962 Deaggregation factor: 2.61 Unique aggregates announced (without unneeded subnets): 399619 Total ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 70194 Prefixes per ASN: 11.89 Origin-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 60341 Origin ASes announcing only one prefix: 24973 Transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:9853 Transit-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:301 Average AS path length visible in the Internet Routing Table: 4.4 Max AS path length visible: 203 Max AS path prepend of ASN (396896) 200 Prefixes from unregistered ASNs in the Routing Table: 1050 Number of instances of unregistered ASNs: 1053 Number of 32-bit ASNs allocated by the RIRs: 34527 Number of 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table: 28671 Prefixes from 32-bit ASNs in the Routing Table: 132240 Number of bogon 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:23 Special use prefixes present in the Routing Table:1 Prefixes being announced from unallocated address space:522 Number of addresses announced to Internet: 2863188352 Equivalent to 170 /8s, 168 /16s and 201 /24s Percentage of available address space announced: 77.3 Percentage of allocated address space announced: 77.3 Percentage of available address space allocated: 100.0 Percentage of address space in use by end-sites: 99.5 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 284081 APNIC Region Analysis Summary - Prefixes being announced by APNIC Region ASes: 218461 Total APNIC prefixes after maximum aggregation: 64434 APNIC Deaggregation factor:3.39 Prefixes being announced from the APNIC address blocks: 214540 Unique aggregates announced from the APNIC address blocks:87588 APNIC Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 11144 APNIC Prefixes per ASN: 19.25 APNIC Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix: 3167 APNIC Region transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 1610 Average APNIC Region AS path length visible:4.5 Max APNIC Region AS path length visible: 31 Number of APNIC region 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table: 6283 Number of APNIC addresses announced to Internet: 777992448 Equivalent to 46 /8s, 95 /16s and 57 /24s APNIC AS Blocks4608-4864, 7467-7722, 9216-10239, 17408-18431 (pre-ERX allocations) 23552-24575, 37888-38911, 45056-46079, 55296-56319, 58368-59391, 63488-64098, 64297-64395, 131072-143673 APNIC Address Blocks 1/8, 14/8, 27/8, 36/8, 39/8, 42/8, 43/8, 49/8, 58/8, 59/8, 60/8, 61/8, 101/8, 103/8, 106/8, 110/8, 111/8, 112/8, 113/8, 114/8, 115/8, 116/8, 117/8, 118/8, 119/8, 120/8, 121/8, 122/8, 123/8, 124/8, 125/8, 126/8, 133/8, 150/8, 153/8, 163/8, 171/8, 175/8, 180/8, 182/8, 183/8, 202/8, 203/8, 210/8, 211/8, 218/8, 219/8, 220/8, 221/8, 222/8, 223/8, ARIN Region Analysis Summary Prefixes being announced by ARIN Region ASes:240552 Total ARIN prefixes after maximum aggregation: 111516 ARIN Deaggregation factor: 2.16 Prefixes being announced from the ARIN address blocks: 240984 Unique aggregates announced from the ARIN address blocks:115437 ARIN Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:18692 ARIN Prefixes per ASN:12.89 ARIN
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 4:52 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > For the home, if you're looking at shipping 10Gbps-based CPE's for under > US$200, I can't think of anything other than the Tik: > > https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_rm That has 1 10g port. How can that be a 10g CPE? > They claim: > > - 2.6Gbps forwarding for 64-byte packets. > - 7.8Gbps forwarding for 512-byte packets. > - 9.7Gbps forwarding for 1,518-byte packets. so, not 10g :) Add in some services and I bet it goes down from there. The bigger question in all this if you're doing 10g to the residential user, what are they going to use for their home router/NAT device? Even 60 ghz wifi routers top out at like 5 gbit/s, and NAT at this speed means a powerful CPU. 10g to the home is a great idea to think about, it's just not terribly practical for most customers unless they want to drop 1-2k on routing gear and nics. This is always changing, but it's going to be a few years until we reach the right performance and price point. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 08:04, Tony Wicks wrote: Stand alone RGW's are hard to find, I'd be interested to hear if people have found anything smaller than the Mikrotik RB4011... Funny, that's the very unit I recommended as well in my previous post to Brandon :-). As reasonably-priced devices that will have half decent working code go (for 10Gbps, no less), it's hard to beat the Tik. I'd still never use them in production, but for home CPE's, you bet I would. Mark.
Re: 10g residential CPE
On 12/25/20 05:53, Brandon Martin wrote: One of my router vendors has been teasing me with a "true 10Gb" router due out 1Q 2021. I've been told to expect NBASE-T (1G, 2.5G, 5G, 10G) on both WAN and all LAN ports + 802.11ax "Wifi 6" with at least 5Gbps of real-world IPv4 throughput with NAT and essentially wire-speed IPv6 without NAT or content inspection at a realistic price point. I'll be interested to see what they actually deliver as that would make future-looking multi-gig deployments actually meaningful. For the home, if you're looking at shipping 10Gbps-based CPE's for under US$200, I can't think of anything other than the Tik: https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_rm They claim: - 2.6Gbps forwarding for 64-byte packets. - 7.8Gbps forwarding for 512-byte packets. - 9.7Gbps forwarding for 1,518-byte packets. Mark.
