Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
Idris Samawi Hamid wrote: On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:35:35 -0700, Peter Münster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? Hello, I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask for %81 or 18% ? Hmm, this could be a long discussion... sure, but interesting (summary should be part of your arab typesetting paper) In ancient times, Arabic numerals (whence our own) were pronounced as follows (translation): 1234 = 4 and 30 and 2 hundred and a thousand aha, makes sense maybe it's also related to the fact that nowadays we see more numbers, and have learned to see them 'as a whole' and not as a systematic sequence - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
On 1 févr. 08, at 12:15, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
[…]
Maybe I missed the point: don't both lines produce the same output:
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ ?
\TeXXeTstate=1
\definedfont[GeezaPro at 16pt]
\starttext
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
\beginL
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
\endL
\stoptext
... or was this a confusion of multi-script e-mails?
Hi Steffen,
Indeed you are right. But the point is that when writing a text in
Persian, or rather any RL text, in principle the beginning of the file
is:
\TeXXeTstate=1
\everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 }
and therefore the output is different than the one you get. If one
omits the second or both of the above two lines, again the output is
as one intends, but the difficulty comes from the fact that (at least
in Persian) when one writes some text containing a number, the digits
and the separators, which can be the comma U+002C, the space, or the
slash U+002F called Solidus (?) for writing fractions, should be
typeset Left-to-Right. In particular compare the following for writing
the number 123 456 789.01:
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹,۰۱
\beginL
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹,۰۱
\endL
Indeed the first one results in something meaningless.
Best regards: OK
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:27:16 -0700, Steffen Wolfrum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left to the number % 18. Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/ TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this ... the incorrect placement of the percentage sign. Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more than one convention for dealing with mathematical directionality. Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script world. These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv. Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:08:45 -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Both languages are left-to-right, RTL, of course... I -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
Am 31.01.2008 um 16:08 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid: Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more than one convention for dealing with mathematical directionality. Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script world. That's what I suspected ... These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv. Yes!! Best wishes Idris Thanks, Steffen ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
Am 2008-01-31 um 16:08 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid: I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left to the number % 18. Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/ TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this ... the incorrect placement of the percentage sign. Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more than one convention for dealing with mathematical directionality. Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script world. These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv. Hm, reminds me of conventions where you place currency symbols - depending on if you live in a economist/accountant surrounding... Do you think some automated handling of such is possible at all? I know nothing about Arabic script, of course... Greetlings from Lake Constance! Hraban --- http://www.fiee.net/texnique/ http://wiki.contextgarden.net https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? Hello, I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask for %81 or 18% ? Cheers, Peter -- http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
Peter Münster wrote: On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? Hello, I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask for %81 or 18% ? interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos] [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos] for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a tendency to go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum) - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:42:53 -0700, Hans Hagen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos] [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos] IIRC Persian and Arabic have diffferent rules; I need to research this again (check urdu too)... will report back. Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:35:35 -0700, Peter Münster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? Hello, I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask for %81 or 18% ? Hmm, this could be a long discussion... In ancient times, Arabic numerals (whence our own) were pronounced as follows (translation): 1234 = 4 and 30 and 2 hundred and a thousand Writing from right to left one would write 4 first, then 3, etc., giving the same output as writing from left to right. So the oft-repeated mantra that numbering in Arabic is LR is a half-truth. Today, Arabs, Persians etc. read numerals the same way westerners do; so the effect is that it is more convenient to enter numeral-strings as LR. But when the numbers were read in reverse (actually it is we that read numbers in reverse when you think about it, Arabic numerals after all) they were written RL and looked the same as our LR version. So taking Peter's logic to its conclusion we should be writing 18 as 81, not the other way around ;-) Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
[bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos] [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos] for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed I think you're mistaken about the flexibility of human mind. Eight digits may look like a lot, but that's really not a long string compared to an average line width, and it does not take a lot of effort for the reader to look ahead for the start of the number. And eight digits is probably the longest it gets anyway (OK, maybe 12, but a 15-digit number would be difficult to read for anyone in any language). Actually you should look at it as a cultural difference, even if it interferes with scientific notation (and if you think about it, the percent sign is a scientific one, even if a rather simple and widely used one). And I'm sure you know how natural each person can find his own culture, while others would be puzzled by aspects of it. Hey, you're Dutch; doesn't that number read something like twelve millions four hundred two and seventy thousands four hundred seven and seventy in Dutch? (What else do German, Dutch, Arabic and Slovenian have in common?) And yet I'm sure you would read it out loud without hesitation (OK, you might say that you're only reversing two digits at a time, but I could reply that the way I see it, they are interspersed more or less arbitrarily). math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a tendency to go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum) That's standard in Maghreb as far as I know. Arthur ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
Hi all,
I checked in some Persian printed books, and noticed that the rule is
to write 18% or rather
۱۸%
However I don't know of any book in Persian on rules of typography.
But I am asking some people in Iran about the issue.
Regarding the treatment of numbers, indeed numbers are written (and
read…) in the usual way, but in XeConTeXt or in XeTeX (I don't know
still how to typeset an Arabic or Persian file with mkiv LuaTeX),
there is an issue with separators of digits: for instance if one
writes (in the source file)
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
(meaning 123 456 789, using a space as a separator between thousands)
then one gets in the typeset file
۷۸۹ ۴۵۶ ۱۲۳
that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write
\beginL
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
\endL
and then the output is correct, but there is a slight modification of
the alignment and the treatment of glues (if I don't misinterpret).
While if one uses a comma (that is U+002C, this is the comma for LR,
while the comma for RL, the Arabic Comma, is U+060C) as in
۱۲۳{,}۴۵۶{,}۷۸۹
or
۱۲۳,۴۵۶,۷۸۹
or a dot (that is U+002E, which is indeed the same when writing LR or
RL) as in
۱۲۳.۴۵۶.۷۸۹
then the output is correct.
It should be feasible to have a mechanism allowing the user to enforce
a certain type of separator between groups of digits, and this
separator can be a space.
Best regards: OK
On 31 janv. 08, at 23:42, Hans Hagen wrote:
Peter Münster wrote:
On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
Hello,
I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic
to ask
for %81 or 18% ?
interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about
[bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos]
[bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos]
for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed
math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a
tendency to
go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum)
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
