Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
From: Alexandre Castonguay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pd-list@iem.at Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Hi all, Yves, Here are some facts may help explain and paint a correct picture of the convention's gender distribution. Number of applications received for the exhibition component : 9 (F) 26 (M) Invitations sent : 6 (F) 12 (M) Number of applications for performances (* I am unsure as to the gender of one applicant as we didn't ask people to specify it in their application.) 3 (F) 32 (M) Invitations sent : 2 (F) 18 (M) As Andrew Brouse noted, the applications for papers did not carry the author's names so it makes it hard to get a picture of the gender breakdown. Out of 46 'papers invitations', 2 were extended to women and I believe that may unfortunately be the number of applicants? Andrew may be able to answer to that. I believe that the impression Yves got is justified. It is just that the community is overwhelmingly male and 'white' (another thread!). It also seems that the juries for the papers, exhibition and performances were conscious of the fact as it is somewhat reflected in the final breakdown of invitations sent. Some observations on other parts of this long thread that may yet yield something positive. * The component of the convention that had the highest representation of women applicants was the exhibition. It shows that this form of contribution is often the way through which women enter the community. It should be maintained and expanded through other conventions. * I heard through the application process that some women were intimidated by the perceived technological sophistication of the pd scene and thought that their work may not be 'pure' enough to warrant an application. In that light, dismissing people whose work process calls on external expertise to be realized does not help with that perception of purity. * I am personally glad that our efforts of providing better documentation and access to the software got a renewed push through the work groups and discussions happening at the convention. * Building a more representative community will take time and many more pd-conventions, workshops, efforts through documentation and packaging, participating in long email threads and chats. Let's keep in mind that most of us take part in these efforts because we believe we can make the community more inclusive, make good work and have fun while doing it. A bientot, Alexandre On Friday 19 October 2007 08:24:26 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ola, Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that matter I know nothing about Yves. As I said- the original statement was completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact. I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list. wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks ago, but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on, and was also a general feeling from pd convention ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ), too bad some people speaking here were not there. saludos, sevy ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
Hi all, Yves, Here are some facts may help explain and paint a correct picture of the convention's gender distribution. Number of applications received for the exhibition component : 9 (F) 26 (M) Invitations sent : 6 (F) 12 (M) Number of applications for performances (* I am unsure as to the gender of one applicant as we didn't ask people to specify it in their application.) 3 (F) 32 (M) Invitations sent : 2 (F) 18 (M) As Andrew Brouse noted, the applications for papers did not carry the author's names so it makes it hard to get a picture of the gender breakdown. Out of 46 'papers invitations', 2 were extended to women and I believe that may unfortunately be the number of applicants? Andrew may be able to answer to that. I believe that the impression Yves got is justified. It is just that the community is overwhelmingly male and 'white' (another thread!). It also seems that the juries for the papers, exhibition and performances were conscious of the fact as it is somewhat reflected in the final breakdown of invitations sent. Some observations on other parts of this long thread that may yet yield something positive. * The component of the convention that had the highest representation of women applicants was the exhibition. It shows that this form of contribution is often the way through which women enter the community. It should be maintained and expanded through other conventions. * I heard through the application process that some women were intimidated by the perceived technological sophistication of the pd scene and thought that their work may not be 'pure' enough to warrant an application. In that light, dismissing people whose work process calls on external expertise to be realized does not help with that perception of purity. * I am personally glad that our efforts of providing better documentation and access to the software got a renewed push through the work groups and discussions happening at the convention. * Building a more representative community will take time and many more pd-conventions, workshops, efforts through documentation and packaging, participating in long email threads and chats. Let's keep in mind that most of us take part in these efforts because we believe we can make the community more inclusive, make good work and have fun while doing it. A bientot, Alexandre On Friday 19 October 2007 08:24:26 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ola, Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that matter I know nothing about Yves. As I said- the original statement was completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact. I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list. wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks ago, but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on, and was also a general feeling from pd convention ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ), too bad some people speaking here were not there. saludos, sevy ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On 10/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ola, Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that matter I know nothing about Yves. As I said- the original statement was completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact. I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list. wrong! i sent this after reading 'wettest dream' in a mail from 2 weeks ago, but anyway it was 2 years or more that this was going on, and was also a general feeling from pd convention ( seems work groups were only constituted of men ), too bad some people speaking here were not there. My mistake, I thought you were commenting about this list, not the pd convention. I see that post now, thank you for addressing my question. I don't see eye to eye with you on this. I'm not sure there's cause and effect between someone referring to Christiaan Huygens having wet dreams and there being a greater number of men than women on this list; and if there is, I suspect the demographic imbalance is more cause than effect. I could be wrong, but I'm not ready to join the crusade. On the other hand I'm more than ready to refrain from posting vulgarities myself. This is one of the most benign, tolerant free software forums I've found. You should see the #debian IRC channel. Your children should not! -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
I see you found the thread yourself, while I was running around trying to find work instead of staying updated. On 10/17/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. I don't mind femin-, but any -ism tastes nasty to me. femin-ism is, lexicographically or whatever, one step from sex-ism. Equality is equality, and doesn't need another name. If a man is treated badly for his gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a member of a group less often treated badly? Maybe not in theory, but in many people's actions, yes. I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe that is accomplished by focusing on one group of people. Oddly- not speaking of institutions- men are far more often victims of violent crime than women, at least in my country (worldwide anyone know?). They say a lot that women are most often victimized by people they know, but leave out that this is still less often than men are victimized. Occupational fatality, drug addiction, and suicide are traditionally higher among men, and men have shorter lives worldwide as well. It is very well-known that, in university, social studies subjects are filled largely with women and technological and scientific subjects by men, and that the latter are more well-paid positions. BUT could this have something to do with the fact that men are traditionally judged by women according to their income? I would far rather study art and history than mathematics (in fact I did, I have a music degree and make $0 from it, and often feel ignored on lists like this for my lack of computer science knowledge). It's true I know almost nothing about society in any place but North America and Europe, but I'm really not trying to belittle the ill treatment of women; I know forced prostitution, for example, still occurs in many places, probably more often with women/girls. But I don't believe humans are anything but animals, and I think, all things considered, they have done pretty well over the last few hundred years. I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list: - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that. I think many people would say the exact same thing to me. it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces. I wasn't aware that women didn't participate. My few exchanges with Patrice convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and especially Pd, but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was. As they say in regard to the internet, I still don't REALLY know. BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to erase them, I just had no response. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
Hello, just a parenthesis to make things clear, :), Chuckk Hubbard a écrit : I wasn't aware that women didn't participate. My few exchanges with Patrice convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and especially Pd, but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was. As they say in regard to the internet, I still don't REALLY know. BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to erase them, I just had no response. -Chuckk I've figured out some years ago that in united states 'Patrice' is a name given to women, when I've heard about the existence of Patrice Zappa, the sister of Frank Zappa. Also this name come from the roman 'pater' which mean 'father', or in french 'Patricien'. It's a communauty of people living during ancient Rome. I've no idea why my united statesian homologous (sorry didn't find a better translation for 'homologue') is a woman. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On 10/18/07, Patrice Colet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, just a parenthesis to make things clear, :), Chuckk Hubbard a écrit : I wasn't aware that women didn't participate. My few exchanges with Patrice convinced me she knows far more than I about computers and especially Pd, but for a year or two I had no idea what her sex was. As they say in regard to the internet, I still don't REALLY know. BTW, I did remove a number of your comments in replying; I don't mean to erase them, I just had no response. -Chuckk I've figured out some years ago that in united states 'Patrice' is a name given to women, when I've heard about the existence of Patrice Zappa, the sister of Frank Zappa. Also this name come from the roman 'pater' which mean 'father', or in french 'Patricien'. It's a communauty of people living during ancient Rome. I've no idea why my united statesian homologous (sorry didn't find a better translation for 'homologue') is a woman. See, I never did inquire as to Patrice's gender... Sorry for the mistake! I wish Frank Zappa were alive and posting on this thread... -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
Equality is equality, and doesn't need another name. If a man is treated badly for his gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a member of a group less often treated badly? Maybe not in theory, but in many people's actions, yes. I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe that is accomplished by focusing on one group of people. Chuckk, while I can sympathize with this, I would also suggest that the goal of many feminists is not equality in the limited sense of we get the same things as men. I hope that you don't take this as any kind of attack, because certainly this is not a reflection on you, but I am almost a little bored by that idea. After a certain point, doesn't the question become - how long will we keep chasing and catching up with men? In my opinion (as a man though), the more interesting varieties of feminism also encompass a celebration (or expansion) of femininity. The feminine does not have to be a static, rigid entity either - see Donna Harraway's A Cyborg Manifesto, or feminist responses to Deleuze/Guattari's rhizome. Economic justice does require some attention to the idea of equality, but it must an equality that is aware of difference, never turning a blind eye to it.. otherwise, how to address inequality? By turning back to some abstract enlightenment ideal, or by attending to the differences? Also I am not a computer science type either (as much as I often wish I was, my degree is in art, so we are related in the $0 market), but I've been on an interesting ride so far in large part because of pd and this list/community, for which I am very grateful. You can tell by my ridiculous newbie questions from last summer :) Also I found the mistake over Patrice really beautiful. km ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On 10/18/07, Kevin McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Equality is equality, and doesn't need another name. If a man is treated badly for his gender, does he have less right to justice because he is a member of a group less often treated badly? Maybe not in theory, but in many people's actions, yes. I believe in equal rights, but I don't believe that is accomplished by focusing on one group of people. Chuckk, while I can sympathize with this, I would also suggest that the goal of many feminists is not equality in the limited sense of we get the same things as men. I hope that you don't take this as any kind of attack, because certainly this is not a reflection on you, but I am almost a little bored by that idea. After a certain point, doesn't the question become - how long will we keep chasing and catching up with men? I think it depends when and where you are. I worked for 6 years with almost all women coworkers (data entry), and the us vs. them mentality was strong and loud. I told a coworker once about a woman in Thailand who had severed her husband's genitals because she suspected he was cheating; her response: Well I guess he won't be cheatin no more. It was a hostile environment at times, and this was acknowledged and perfectly okay in some of my coworkers' minds because so many women at different times had been subjected to hostile environments by men. My point about equality is that we're not teams that need to even some score; maybe that's obvious to most of us, but I suspect we can't help sliding into that mentality sometimes. Else genital mutilation would be equally horrifying in all circumstances. In my opinion (as a man though), the more interesting varieties of feminism also encompass a celebration (or expansion) of femininity. Well said. That aspect I enjoy, but I still recoil from -isms. The feminine does not have to be a static, rigid entity either - see Donna Harraway's A Cyborg Manifesto, or feminist responses to Deleuze/Guattari's rhizome. Economic justice does require some attention to the idea of equality, but it must an equality that is aware of difference, never turning a blind eye to it.. otherwise, how to address inequality? By turning back to some abstract enlightenment ideal, or by attending to the differences? I think the best way is by understanding where it comes from (understanding is not the same as sympathizing, mind you). Something so universal throughout human history can't possibly be coincidence? Throughout most of history, survival was something people clung to desperately. The idea of sending women on a raid, or to hunt, or to sail across the ocean, was tantamount to slaughtering the next generation of infants. On the other hand, they could send all of the men except one and still have the same number of young born. Obviously this is no longer the case in some parts of the world today, and, even more obviously, most of the disadvantages/horrors brought upon women based on gender were/are completely irrational if inspired by this line of thought; but I still think it's the main factor that has caused society to do these things since forever. A woman can have one baby a year, a man 365, and for that baby to be born the woman must be kept from physical danger. Or whatever else our superstitious, slime-worshiping ancestors thought might hurt their societies. Anyway it remains to be seen whether humans can ever live peacefully for any length of time, and who knows if we'll last another 100 years. Here's hoping we all get the same rights as long as we do survive. Also I am not a computer science type either (as much as I often wish I was, my degree is in art, so we are related in the $0 market), but I've been on an interesting ride so far in large part because of pd and this list/community, for which I am very grateful. You can tell by my ridiculous newbie questions from last summer :) Also I found the mistake over Patrice really beautiful. km Heh, thanks. I'm male, by the way. You know, the public transit between Philly and Jersey is called Patco, and at first I thought I had found another Pd user and Zappa fan in Philly. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ola, this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired]. You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like wet dream and gang bang here every day. Does this kind of language permeate the list whenever I turn my back? As far as I can tell your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments. ==troll i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men, . so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore. I'm not big on macho crap either, and you obviously aren't. A lot of times when people form their own separate structures, it's as much shyness as intimidation. Has THIS happened due to the language on this list?? Anyway I don't interpret crass humor as macho. Is Southpark macho? Does it repel women? -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
In my defense (for my instigative comments earlier in the thread), im not macho/sexist in any way, I am simply lewd, loud and obnoxious and enjoy cynical humor, because the joke is not the joke, its the fact that some genuinely may laugh at it. Some may even call me an asshole, but hey, at least I didnt *start* this goddamned thread. Anyway if you were offended, too bad. Really, Im not sure where the right to not be offended comes from, but frankly, if the list (and PD by extension) is truly to be open, someones going to be offended - get used to it. I realize one of my responses was sent privately, but I really want to say, for the women (and yes, I agree, speaking of women as girls is pretty dismissive), on the list that lurk, if you are offended by any speech on this list, its your job to speak up, lest it be perpetuated. Same goes for any group or individuals. However, I share the confusion on where the hell this whole thing came from. Frankly I think its a non issue. My opinion may not count though, as I have a penis. But fuck, I really do hate feminism as it is an ism, and by that I mean it has some strange life of its own. I could not be more for equality though. Well said. You know, I showed this thread to my girlfriend, and she basically rolled her eyes and laughed at everyone who takes this thread seriously. Stop trying to be so goddamned 'fair' and pay more attention to user experience in PD, its interface, compatibility and improving the overall experience of *using* the software. Perhaps all the *girls* (GROSS!) are using Max? On Oct 18, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Chuckk Hubbard wrote: On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ola, this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired]. You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like wet dream and gang bang here every day. Does this kind of language permeate the list whenever I turn my back? As far as I can tell your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments. ==troll i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men, . so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore. I'm not big on macho crap either, and you obviously aren't. A lot of times when people form their own separate structures, it's as much shyness as intimidation. Has THIS happened due to the language on this list?? Anyway I don't interpret crass humor as macho. Is Southpark macho? Does it repel women? -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list v a d e // www.vade.info abstrakt.vade.info ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
Patrice Colet a écrit : -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals so Zeena Parkins, Laurie Anderson, ... never did anything.. Yeah! Superman is a great (and certainly one of the best) minimalistic audiovisual piece. I've made a typo it's Laurie Anderson's oh superman ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
hey! Yves Degoyon a écrit : ola, in fact, i do more of the visuals now but we don't use video anymore, text is more interesting. I'd like to ask you something*. What are you working on? Is (and how it is) it related with sound? -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals so Zeena Parkins, Laurie Anderson, ... never did anything.. Yeah! Superman is a great (and certainly one of the best) minimalistic audiovisual piece. best, sevy * If you can't answer, no problemo. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On 10/18/07, Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ola, this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired]. You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like wet dream and gang bang here every day. Does this kind of language permeate the list whenever I turn my back? As far as I can tell your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments. ==troll OK, I think calling Yves an instigator (ie. trolling) is neither here nor there. It's just some dumb little label. You know that it doesn't add support for or against the point she made. Don't get so caught up on facts--the perception and subjective experience of discrimination/bias is just as important. and your point is made more clear later on: i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men, . so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore. which is plainly valid. Other people have added their experiences that give a broader picture of what's going on, and support this reason. and outside the art or programming worlds, there is still a great need for feminism, whether or not you want to call it that. I won't try to back this up, I don't think I could adequately explain. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On 10/19/07, Charles Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/18/07, Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/18/07, Yves Degoyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ola, this is an excellent summing up of all that is wrong here... i didn't except to find soo much c.r.a.p. under the carpet .. you can call me a troll, but i don't think i'm so braindead [maybe tired]. You never did explain why you claimed to read phrases like wet dream and gang bang here every day. Does this kind of language permeate the list whenever I turn my back? As far as I can tell your statement was a downright lie, and it caused a pretty long thread full of OT arguments. ==troll OK, I think calling Yves an instigator (ie. trolling) is neither here nor there. It's just some dumb little label. You know that it doesn't add support for or against the point she made. Honestly I wasn't even sure this sevy was really Yves, and for that matter I know nothing about Yves. As I said- the original statement was completely untrue; and the original poster hasn't responded to that fact. I honestly did not believe the subject was a problem on this list. Don't get so caught up on facts--the perception and subjective experience of discrimination/bias is just as important. And subjective. Which is to say anyone can experience it. The grass is always greener on the other side. As a feeling it's perfectly valid, like all feelings. and your point is made more clear later on: i started this thread mainly because i wonder why some women feel the need to create their own structures and events, and why we go straight to separatism, separate women and men, . so why we should have different agendas? one of the reason is that women can't take this macho c.r.ap. anymore. which is plainly valid. Other people have added their experiences that give a broader picture of what's going on, and support this reason. and outside the art or programming worlds, there is still a great need for feminism, whether or not you want to call it that. I won't try to back this up, I don't think I could adequately explain. Well like I said, I'd rather try to understand the mechanism behind something than to judge those involved. IMO you can't have a broader picture and pronounce judgments at the same time. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
.·:*¨¨*:·.darsha.·:*¨¨*:·. a écrit : Hi people If this thread has to continue please feel free to substitute the word 'girls' for 'women' or 'sisters' even. all Right! all right! sista! ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list. Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere. I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to. I also have a strong distaste for the gang bang talk and macho programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so in the computer music world. As someone who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that. So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions. It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd always wanted to make things. She was one of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman. Needless to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer. Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well. .hc On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote: Hi everybody, Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called girl either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real jock programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just male bonding but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age. Anyway, thanks everybody. -Alicia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey ho hi roman let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point. thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance. for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread) I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!. I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;) since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established. i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like some good internet radio http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list: - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that. -once a pd friend which I wanted to
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
most ISMs turn into cottage industries IMHO, feminism is definitely among them for the record my C++ teacher was a woman, and in Supercollider class we were pretty much 50/50 men and women, sharing ideas and helping each other with code. people make mistakes and students can be cruel, but i no longer hop on board with the men are sex obsessed macho turds, aren't they? stance. For example: i used to do two benefits a year for the local NOW chapter, playing music etc.. Until one year their slogan was Don;t be a DICK meaning do not abuse women etc.. BUt the members of the group felt they needed to inflict this slogan via pins and buttons and whatnot on the MEN present at the function. moral: choose your audiences and soapbox carefully and try not to post the same reply 3 time if possible! lol Hans-Christoph Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list. Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere. I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to. I also have a strong distaste for the gang bang talk and macho programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so in the computer music world. As someone who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that. So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions. It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd always wanted to make things. She was one of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman. Needless to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer. Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well. .hc On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote: Hi everybody, Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called girl either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real jock programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just male bonding but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age. Anyway, thanks everybody. -Alicia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey ho hi roman let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point. thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance. for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread) I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!. I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;) since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established. i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 23:22 -0700, Alicia Byer wrote: Hi everybody, Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called girl either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And as far as the thread making anybody's skin crawl, I agree with Darsh. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. i think, the best thing you could do about it is to just tell immediately, if you encounter something, that troubles you. please do not just ignore it. things can only be changed, if they are labeled/specifed/named. i can understand, that you would rather stay a way from such a thread, but by reacting to bad behaviour, the consciousness of the community about such issues will grow. and i am pretty sure, that the majority of the list would agree with you. once this kind of sense is established, i think noone would like to use words like 'gang bang' in his/her mails anymore. roman ___ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who are deliberately trying to exclude people. There are a wide range of cultures involved in this list, and some things that are not a big deal in some places are quite offensive in others. And email is never a good medium for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in- cheek, sarcasm, etc. So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when posting. I know I learned a lesson when I said hey guys on this list in the past. In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and not, commonly use hey guys to mean all people, not just males. Others read that as hey men, which is certainly not what I meant to say... .hc On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list. Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere. I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to. I also have a strong distaste for the gang bang talk and macho programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so in the computer music world. As someone who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that. So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions. It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd always wanted to make things. She was one of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman. Needless to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer. Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well. .hc On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote: Hi everybody, Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called girl either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real jock programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just male bonding but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age. Anyway, thanks everybody. -Alicia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey ho hi roman let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point. thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance. for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread) I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!. I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;) since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established. i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
I propose another Topic, the PoorDeveloppement of PD :P :D About this offtopic: please, no sexism, no racism, no specism, that's all 2007/10/17, Hans-Christoph Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I forgot to add, I think there are very few people on this list who are deliberately trying to exclude people. There are a wide range of cultures involved in this list, and some things that are not a big deal in some places are quite offensive in others. And email is never a good medium for communicating subtleties, like tongue-in-cheek, sarcasm, etc. So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when posting. I know I learned a lesson when I said hey guys on this list in the past. In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and not, commonly use hey guys to mean all people, not just males. Others read that as hey men, which is certainly not what I meant to say... .hc On Oct 17, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this list. Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere. I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had fallen to. I also have a strong distaste for the gang bang talk and macho programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so in the computer music world. As someone who was raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do to change that. So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always open to suggestions. It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd always wanted to make things. She was one of few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked because she was a woman. Needless to say, she changed departments, but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer. Sadly, I think that such things happen with Pd a lot as well. .hc On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote: Hi everybody, Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I don't appreciate being called girl either, I'm in my mid-twenties also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make me not want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out. It's just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a real jock programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I guess it's just male bonding but it's excluding others that want to learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's 2007!!! Not the stone age. Anyway, thanks everybody. -Alicia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey ho hi roman let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point. thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance. for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread) I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!. I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;) since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established. i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: So in the hopes of sharing Pd, I hope we can keep that in mind when posting. I know I learned a lesson when I said hey guys on this list in the past. In California (where I grew up), men and women, feminists and not, commonly use hey guys to mean all people, not just males. Others read that as hey men, which is certainly not what I meant to say... In English you have it easy. In French there are the feminists who want profession names be gender-specific like programmeur vs programmeuse, because making it only programmeur would imply inherent maleness, and there are those who want it to be always written like programmeur because having two different forms emphasises gender instead of hiding it. (I believe that this divide is geographical, with Atlantic being the dividing line, but I'm not sure) _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20% female, not so in the computer music world. It must be quite dependent on the actual school, but I know that not far from here, there was a prof who advised a music composition student to perform last, because he expected the guys to overdo their own performances, in fear of getting a lower score than the girl or of perhaps of sounding mild in comparison. That's in a less-than-10%-female context. It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint. A friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering department since she'd always wanted to make things. Maybe it's just that I'm not so interested in that profession, but as much as I've drank while in uni, I would never have enjoyed participating in a drinking contest, nor getting pressured into participating. There is also one guy who has dropped out after being harassed during all of his first semester for skipping the initiation ritual. The macho crap doesn't affect only women. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal QC Canada___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
hello again On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 08:23 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point. thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance. for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. yo, i see. me as well would feel more comfortable without having this kind of posts in the list. however - and by saying that i don't want to justify it - this probably is rather an expression of uneasiness and anxiety to be accused of sexism too carelessly as a man (not that this happened on the list, but in general, this is surely an issue as well). It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread) I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!. I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;) since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established. i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha what should we say instead of 'cheers'? and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world. this is true and very sad. however i don't see the point in discussing such big world problems in pd-list. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like some good internet radio http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php thanks for the link, though i probably need to learn spanish first ;-) i tried the streams ( http://stream.r23.cc:2323/ranumcri.mp3 ), but i get: Server returned 404:File Not Found I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list: - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that. -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise. -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!) -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals what i find really alarming about these examples is the fact, that they do not only show a form of sexism, that is based on bad using of words, but, what i think is much more serious, illustrate, how deep certain concepts of gender are squatted in some brains. i don't know what do say but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media. it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces. agreed! roman ___ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
so to hell if you're not concerned how girls are treated in the pd community ( actually just as meat and object of greasy jokes ), so again, yeh, sorry, they won't participate to nothing here! yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe (maybe you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :)) In my experience the discussion here is respectful and helpful, and it's *usually* about PD... I agree that there's no point in agitating to prematurely end a relevant discussion - but personally I got bored a while ago, and I don't think this thread is on-topic anymore (bored/irritated != disturbed). I think it would be a better use of everyone's time to get back to discussing Pure Data. best, -David M. -- MIT Media Lab [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/ http://web.media.mit.edu/%7Edmerrill/ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe (maybe you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :)) hi David and all, I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples of greasy jokes: From: João Miguel Pais [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2: One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks] I am not old enough to consider this a joke and I am quite old ;-) but ok I also know I don't have a good sense of humor Subject:Re: [PD] about pd From: Andy Farnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, October 12, 2007 5:15 am Edmund: Baldrick, fetch my Incredibly Strong Ale...! Monk: Good god! Not Dr McGloo's Amber Enema...? Edmund: Pah! -- a drink for schoolgirls... Partridge: Surely not Strollop's Lobster Scrumpy...? Edmund: No -- it is Blackadder's Bowel Basher! \runs off singing I'm Merlin, The Happy Pig! and not to forget the call for 'sexy' externals included in some mail that I will not repeat. I am very sorry to keep on with this discussion but I would like to ask the list to consider that some of us are trying to use the mailing list as an educational resource, so when there are toasts for school girls, and some consensus about laughing together on silly anti feminist jokes just to name a few factors... err I don't think this works anymore. I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts is just a bit too much for me to keep silent. best, Alejandra so to hell if you're not concerned how girls are treated in the pd community ( actually just as meat and object of greasy jokes ), so again, yeh, sorry, they won't participate to nothing here! yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe (maybe you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :)) In my experience the discussion here is respectful and helpful, and it's *usually* about PD... I agree that there's no point in agitating to prematurely end a relevant discussion - but personally I got bored a while ago, and I don't think this thread is on-topic anymore (bored/irritated != disturbed). I think it would be a better use of everyone's time to get back to discussing Pure Data. best, -David M. -- MIT Media Lab [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://web.media.mit.edu/~dmerrill/ http://web.media.mit.edu/%7Edmerrill/ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
there's no 'PLEASE STOP' there is 'YES PLEASE HURT ME!', that's all we can take here. That's funny... yes please hurt me is also my safe word (just a little joke to illustrate how some 'fringe' vernacular enters into common usage... we all know what that means) but it is really kind of important to consider how types of jargon become common usage, despite having sexist or ethnocentric overtones (resulting in an inharmonic series of posts... see gang bang or mongolian hordes technique). I think we could have had a constructive conversation about sexism on the pd-list, but argumentative and egotistical comments dominated things. It's not a good way to persuade other people, or get to the core of the matter. I think you can see that many people care about the creation of an intolerant culture on pd-list which discourages other people. But the thread was just not helping. in the absence of anything constructive, I'd rather talk about beer. Yes, beer. Chuck ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
As Roman already so eloquently suggested EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW. You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in. I hope. Thanks, derek -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 164: Twist the spine ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE
Seems to me it's been a pretty civil discussion. Way off-topic, definitely, but not terribly aggressive. I don't understand telling people not to talk about something. Whether or not we are all adults, we are all capable of deciding for ourselves what we want to say and read. -Chuckk On 10/11/07, Derek Holzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Roman already so eloquently suggested EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW. You're all adults enough that no one needs to get the last word in. I hope. Thanks, derek -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 164: Twist the spine -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
