Re: OT: Largest Digital Camera

[John]

So they'd probably have to use GIMP or something similar.

On 9/13/2020 19:50:03, Igor PDML-StR wrote:



Lightroom will probably choke on that size of the image...
(Unless it were installed on a supercomputer with a huge amount of RAM.
But those are not running Windows or even MacOS.)
:-)

Cheers,
Igor


Daniel J. Matyola Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:19:22 -0700 wrote:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/camera-bound-space-telescope-takes-3200-megapixel-photos-180975758/ 




Dan Matyola




--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: Largest Digital Camera

[Igor PDML-StR]

On Sep 13, 2020, at 5:57 PM, Bruce Walker wrote:


On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 8:21 PM Larry Colen  wrote:



On Sep 13, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:

In ten years that rez will come in one of the standard cameras in an iPhone.


lets call green light 500nm, so if I do my math right, a square sensor
60,000 photons on a side would be 30 um on a side. So, that kind of sets a
bottom limit on how small that resolution sensor could be.


Not a problem. They will get around physical limits through a
combination of: pixel-shift, software interpolation and extrapolation,
and with current upward sizing trends, by 2030 the latest iPhone will
be about the size of a sheet of drywall.


I like that thought about the upward-sizing trends:
laptops are becoming desktops,
tablets are becoming laptops,
phones are becoming tablets,
and
watches are becoming new phones.

The resolution of the phones by far exceeds the resolution of the TVs from 
1960s. So, Fresnel lenses are offered again:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NL8NSVM
 as in good ol' days:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens#/media/File%3AMagnifying-fresnel-lens.jpg

Cheers,

Igor


--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: Largest Digital Camera

[Bruce Walker]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 9:10 PM Larry Colen  wrote:
>
> > On Sep 13, 2020, at 5:57 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 8:21 PM Larry Colen  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In ten years that rez will come in one of the standard cameras in an 
> >>> iPhone.
> >>
> >> lets call green light 500nm, so if I do my math right, a square sensor 
> >> 60,000 photons on a side would be 30 um on a side. So, that kind of sets a 
> >> bottom limit on how small that resolution sensor could be.
> >
> > Not a problem. They will get around physical limits through a
> > combination of: pixel-shift, software interpolation and extrapolation,
> > and with current upward sizing trends, by 2030 the latest iPhone will
> > be about the size of a sheet of drywall.
>
> 2030 is about 7 Moore’s cycles in the future, so with the current one at 
> 12MP, iPhones should still be under a gigapixel by 2030.

Ah, but what about when Apple answers the 108-megapixel Samsung Galaxy
S20 Ultra challenge?

-- 
-bmw

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: Largest Digital Camera

[Larry Colen]

> On Sep 13, 2020, at 5:57 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 8:21 PM Larry Colen  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sep 13, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In ten years that rez will come in one of the standard cameras in an iPhone.
>> 
>> lets call green light 500nm, so if I do my math right, a square sensor 
>> 60,000 photons on a side would be 30 um on a side. So, that kind of sets a 
>> bottom limit on how small that resolution sensor could be.
> 
> Not a problem. They will get around physical limits through a
> combination of: pixel-shift, software interpolation and extrapolation,
> and with current upward sizing trends, by 2030 the latest iPhone will
> be about the size of a sheet of drywall.

2030 is about 7 Moore’s cycles in the future, so with the current one at 12MP, 
iPhones should still be under a gigapixel by 2030.

--
Larry Colen
l...@red4est.com




-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: Largest Digital Camera

[Bruce Walker]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 8:21 PM Larry Colen  wrote:
>
> > On Sep 13, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> >
> > In ten years that rez will come in one of the standard cameras in an iPhone.
>
> lets call green light 500nm, so if I do my math right, a square sensor 60,000 
> photons on a side would be 30 um on a side. So, that kind of sets a bottom 
> limit on how small that resolution sensor could be.

Not a problem. They will get around physical limits through a
combination of: pixel-shift, software interpolation and extrapolation,
and with current upward sizing trends, by 2030 the latest iPhone will
be about the size of a sheet of drywall.

If they can make fake bokeh sort-of usable, then they can easily make
fake outlandishly huge resolution nearly usable.

-- 
-bmw

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: Largest Digital Camera

[Larry Colen]

> On Sep 13, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> 
> In ten years that rez will come in one of the standard cameras in an iPhone.

lets call green light 500nm, so if I do my math right, a square sensor 60,000 
photons on a side would be 30 um on a side. So, that kind of sets a bottom 
limit on how small that resolution sensor could be.

 
> 
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 7:50 PM Igor PDML-StR  wrote:
>> 
>> Lightroom will probably choke on that size of the image...
>> (Unless it were installed on a supercomputer with a huge amount of RAM.
>> But those are not running Windows or even MacOS.)
>> :-)
>> 
>> 
>> Daniel J. Matyola Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:19:22 -0700 wrote:
>> 
>> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/camera-bound-space-telescope-takes-3200-megapixel-photos-180975758/
> 
> -- 
> -bmw
> 
> -- 
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
> the directions.
> 

--
Larry Colen
l...@red4est.com




-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: Largest Digital Camera

[Bruce Walker]

In ten years that rez will come in one of the standard cameras in an iPhone.

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 7:50 PM Igor PDML-StR  wrote:
>
> Lightroom will probably choke on that size of the image...
> (Unless it were installed on a supercomputer with a huge amount of RAM.
> But those are not running Windows or even MacOS.)
> :-)
>
>
> Daniel J. Matyola Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:19:22 -0700 wrote:
>
> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/camera-bound-space-telescope-takes-3200-megapixel-photos-180975758/

-- 
-bmw

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: Largest Digital Camera

[Igor PDML-StR]

Lightroom will probably choke on that size of the image...
(Unless it were installed on a supercomputer with a huge amount of RAM.
But those are not running Windows or even MacOS.)
:-)

Cheers,
Igor


Daniel J. Matyola Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:19:22 -0700 wrote:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/camera-bound-space-telescope-takes-3200-megapixel-photos-180975758/


Dan Matyola

--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

OT: Largest Digital Camera

[Daniel J. Matyola]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/camera-bound-space-telescope-takes-3200-megapixel-photos-180975758/

Dan Matyola
*https://tinyurl.com/DJM-Pentax-Gallery
*
-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

OT: largest digital camera in the world

[Darren Addy]

Perhaps of passing interest to the group is the largest digital camera
in the world: The Pan-STARRS
http://pan-starrs.ifa.hawaii.edu/public/


This is of interest (at least to me) on a couple of levels.
1) it uses over a Gigabyte of pixels in a sensor octagonal sensor
array (corners unimportant since the quality of the image circle is
lacking there) They call it a 64x64 sensor array, but it is not
square.
http://pan-starrs.ifa.hawaii.edu/public/design-features/cameras.html
2) it has discovered a comet (way way out) that may be our next
Hale-Bopp in 2013.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/06/110622-new-comet-found-2013-visible-space-science/

Not a lot has been written about the comet since its orbit was
determined, and it will probably be fine-tuned. However the JPL
Horizons prediction is that it will be
brightest between March 8-12, 2013 with a magnitude near -0.5. (about
the brightness of Arcturus... one of the night sky's guideposts). This
will be it's one and only trip through the solar system as it rounds
the sun and get's tossed out.

Enter
C/2011 L4 in the search box of the Small Objects Database browser
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi
and then click Orbit Diagram and you can play its orbit forward and
backwards (zooming in and out, as necessary).
Java required to use the Small Objects Database browser.

I've long wondered what would prevent camera manufacturers from using
sensor arrays instead of single larger sensors.
I imagine that it is possible, but would require so much more from the
image processing engine (along with added complexities of bus channel
management, writing to card, etc.) that it just isn't worth it on a
small scale, when compared to using a single larger sensor.

Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: largest digital camera in the world

[Matthew Hunt]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Darren Addy pixelsmi...@gmail.com wrote:

 I've long wondered what would prevent camera manufacturers from using
 sensor arrays instead of single larger sensors.

For one thing, there's gaps between sensors due to the sensor
packaging. It's not a big deal for most astronomical applications,
because you typically combine multiple exposures, and offset the
telescope slightly between exposures to fill in the gaps.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: largest digital camera in the world

[Paul Stenquist]

On Jan 24, 2012, at 8:50 AM, Matthew Hunt wrote:

 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Darren Addy pixelsmi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I've long wondered what would prevent camera manufacturers from using
 sensor arrays instead of single larger sensors.
 
 For one thing, there's gaps between sensors due to the sensor
 packaging. It's not a big deal for most astronomical applications,
 because you typically combine multiple exposures, and offset the
 telescope slightly between exposures to fill in the gaps.

Sensor arrays are used on large format backs. I watched a shooter work with a 4 
x 5 camera and a digital back tethered to a computer. The complete image, 
without gaps, resolved almost immediately on the monitor screen. I don't know 
if the back was gap free or if software corrections were made. But the results 
were outstanding.
Paul
 
 -- 
 PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 PDML@pdml.net
 http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
 to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
 the directions.


-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: largest digital camera in the world

[Matthew Hunt]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Paul Stenquist
pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:

 Sensor arrays are used on large format backs. I watched a shooter work with a 
 4 x 5 camera and a digital back tethered to a computer. The complete image, 
 without gaps, resolved almost immediately on the monitor screen. I don't know 
 if the back was gap free or if software corrections were made. But the 
 results were outstanding.

You're sure it was a mosaic of sensors, and not a scanning back?

It's possible that someone's come up with gapless packaging for
sensors, but in the photographs of the Pan-STARRS focal plane, you can
see the blind margin at each edge of the chips.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: largest digital camera in the world

[Paul Stenquist]

On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Matthew Hunt wrote:

 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Paul Stenquist
 pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
 
 Sensor arrays are used on large format backs. I watched a shooter work with 
 a 4 x 5 camera and a digital back tethered to a computer. The complete 
 image, without gaps, resolved almost immediately on the monitor screen. I 
 don't know if the back was gap free or if software corrections were made. 
 But the results were outstanding.
 
 You're sure it was a mosaic of sensors, and not a scanning back?

Yes, the shooter told me it was a four-sensor array. This was about a dozen 
years ago. We were shooting a Dodge Nascar vehicle in a Michigan studio.

 
 It's possible that someone's come up with gapless packaging for
 sensors, but in the photographs of the Pan-STARRS focal plane, you can
 see the blind margin at each edge of the chips.
 
 -- 
 PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 PDML@pdml.net
 http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
 to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
 the directions.


-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: largest digital camera in the world

[Paul Stenquist]

Based on the year that this was done, it must have been what they call a 
multiple-exposure single-shot back, generating one image each for RGB. I think 
I remember the shooter telling me that it was an array, but I can't find any 
evidence to support the existence of such a back at that point in history. 

 
On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Matthew Hunt wrote:
 
 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Paul Stenquist
 pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
 
 Sensor arrays are used on large format backs. I watched a shooter work with 
 a 4 x 5 camera and a digital back tethered to a computer. The complete 
 image, without gaps, resolved almost immediately on the monitor screen. I 
 don't know if the back was gap free or if software corrections were made. 
 But the results were outstanding.
 
 You're sure it was a mosaic of sensors, and not a scanning back?
 
 Yes, the shooter told me it was a four-sensor array. This was about a dozen 
 years ago. We were shooting a Dodge Nascar vehicle in a Michigan studio.
 
 
 It's possible that someone's come up with gapless packaging for
 sensors, but in the photographs of the Pan-STARRS focal plane, you can
 see the blind margin at each edge of the chips.
 
 -- 
 PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 PDML@pdml.net
 http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
 to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
 follow the directions.
 
 
 -- 
 PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 PDML@pdml.net
 http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
 to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
 the directions.


-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: largest digital camera in the world

[John Francis]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:18:39AM -0500, Paul Stenquist wrote:
 
 On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Matthew Hunt wrote:
 
  On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Paul Stenquist
  pnstenqu...@comcast.net wrote:
  
  Sensor arrays are used on large format backs. I watched a shooter work 
  with a 4 x 5 camera and a digital back tethered to a computer. The 
  complete image, without gaps, resolved almost immediately on the monitor 
  screen. I don't know if the back was gap free or if software corrections 
  were made. But the results were outstanding.
  
  You're sure it was a mosaic of sensors, and not a scanning back?
 
 Yes, the shooter told me it was a four-sensor array. This was about a dozen 
 years ago. We were shooting a Dodge Nascar vehicle in a Michigan studio.

I've heard of these - that's mostly a mechanical (or cost) limitation.

It's all but impossible to make a reasonanbly defect-free sensor above
a certain size (although the limiting size changes with the technology).
But it is possible to design a sensor so that all the connections, c.
are made along one or two edges, with only a very thin gap between the
edge of the package and the actual sensor cells on the other two edges.
That means you can combine four sensors into a larger composite unit.

This is almost as good as a single sensor of the same size, but has
the advantage that it's a whole lot cheaper.  For example, I think
the sensor used in the 645D was initially priced at around $1000.
That means you could probably make a four-sensor array of comparable
chips for somewhere around $5000.  I'd expect a single sensor design
to be at least an order of magnitude more expensive, simply due to
the mathematics of yield rate in chip manufacture.


-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: OT: largest digital camera in the world

[Matthew Hunt]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:54 PM, John Francis jo...@panix.com wrote:

 But it is possible to design a sensor so that all the connections, c.
 are made along one or two edges, with only a very thin gap between the
 edge of the package and the actual sensor cells on the other two edges.
 That means you can combine four sensors into a larger composite unit.

To give a sense of the numbers, I worked on a 6-CCD mosaic imaging
camera at Palomar Observatory. The CCDs were arranged as you describe,
with the readout edges at the periphery, not between chips, to
minimize the gap. The effective gap between chips was about 80 pixels,
each pixel being 15 microns.

This instrument was built around 1998-99, so improvements to the
packaging may have slimmed down that gap in newer designs.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.