Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Keith Whaley wrote: Going to the site you posted, I got this: The area you wish to access is behind registration. Oh! I'm not registered either, I don't think? I certainly didn't log on and I haven't a clue what my username and password might be if I was. Oh well. Don't want to join them, to read their columns... Absolutely not; the world is full of enough spam mail already without Rupert Murdoch sending you more! Ah well, basically all it was saying was here is a new portable turntable by the Japanese manufacturer Columbia, it's 'funky' and costs £85. Just seemed apt at the time. Chris (I'll get my coat shall I?)
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
on 19.11.03 18:13, Paul Eriksson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry but I can't agree with that a good quality record player in a good stereo system a cd can't touch a LP much less a high quality pressed LP. It's all relative. There are some audio qualities on LPs played on thousends $ record players, that make some people to prefere this sound. Unfortunately no matter what system you are using, LPs has far worse dynamics, S/N ratio and channel separation than CDs. And they are getting worse every time you listen to them. I would compare it to slides viewed using projector vs. DSLR pictures viewed via multimedia LCD projector. In this situation slides quality is unsurpassed, but there is more to photography than just viewing it on the screen and that's why digital is gaining popularity... -- Best Regards Sylwek
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
on 20.11.03 1:13, J. C. O'Connell at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a friend who has about a $100k audio system ($29K loudspeakers) and he has invested heavily in both analog and CD. On his system, the best LPs crush CDs, it isnt even close and his digital stuff cost about 20K including upsamplers, jitterboxes, etc. His phono rig is also about 20KLPs cant sound simply amazing when done right. CD is history like you mentioned, SACD and DVD-A both beat it and sound closer to LP Yeah, yeah, yeah. The same situation is in film vs. digital - if you buy LF film camera you will surely have quality that no digital camera can touch. But it will be more expensive (of course new), bigger, heavier, and less useable for everyday photography... -- Pozdrowienia Sylwek
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
I have no opinion WRT the quality of CDs versus LPs, but I thought the following link from the UK Sunday Times 'Style' magazine might be timely? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2104-882918,00.html There is a large picture to accompany the words in the actual paper magazine. Perhaps low-end, low-fi turntables for the masses might be making a comeback? Chris (Who believes film will actually last for many years yet. Why? Because all the money might be in the western world, but all the people who need to take photographs aren't).
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
Hi Chris, Going to the site you posted, I got this: The area you wish to access is behind registration. If you are an existing user of Times Online please enter you Username and Password on the spaces provided below on the right. If you are new to Times Online please click on the Register Here button below on the left and follow the steps indicated. Oh well. Don't want to join them, to read their columns... keith whaley Chris Stoddart wrote: I have no opinion WRT the quality of CDs versus LPs, but I thought the following link from the UK Sunday Times 'Style' magazine might be timely? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2104-882918,00.html There is a large picture to accompany the words in the actual paper magazine. Perhaps low-end, low-fi turntables for the masses might be making a comeback? Chris (Who believes film will actually last for many years yet. Why? Because all the money might be in the western world, but all the people who need to take photographs aren't).
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
I just read somewhere that Sony ( or maybe it was minolta?) has a new digicam ( not slr) with 8Mpixel sensor! Looks like 6Mpixel is not the leveling off point in consumer models after all J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jcoconnell.com -Original Message- From: graywolf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. That does seem likely, Robert. I looked trough the BH Digital Source Book last night. Let me hit the highligts for those who have not studied it. Fuji has a 6mp EVF camera out (first 6mp comsumer digital). Minolta and Panasonic each have a model with images stablization. Other than that all that I see is cosmetic and minor upgrades (4x zooms replacing 3x, etc.). This is definately a sign that digital is becoming a mature market. The Olympus C-5060Z (I have been wishing for a C-5050Z)has a slower (1.5 stop) 4x zoom and new cosmetics. Both make it less desirable to me than the 5050. Oh well, I can't afford it any more than I can afford an istD. -- Mark Roberts wrote: To bring this back to within spitting distance of being on-topic: I expect the way the LP/CD relationship compares to film/digital will be in the way it affects the availability of equipment. After CD's took over it was still possible to buy turntables, but only either really cheap ones or really high end models; the formerly vast middle ground vanished. I expect will happen when digital SLR's get down to $500.00 or so: We'll se film cameras that are really cheap ($200.00) entry-level models or expensive exotics and not much in between. -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I just read somewhere that Sony ( or maybe it was minolta?) has a new digicam ( not slr) with 8Mpixel sensor! They do. All of the sample photographs released so far have been pretty terrible though. They are producing an 8mp sensor that is the same size as the old 5mp sensor and it shows in the quality of the photographs. http://www.dpreview.com has lots of threads on this new camera if you look in the Sony Forum. alex
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
The big mistake some makers are doing now (especially Fujifilm and Sony) is increasing pixel count (even more than truly neded) without increasing sensor size accordingly. More pixel in the same size mean worse S/N (signal/noise) ratio, hence grainy images. In other words, they're getting rid of one of the main advantages of digital vs. film. Silly, very very silly. Dario Bonazza - Original Message - From: alex wetmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I just read somewhere that Sony ( or maybe it was minolta?) has a new digicam ( not slr) with 8Mpixel sensor! They do. All of the sample photographs released so far have been pretty terrible though. They are producing an 8mp sensor that is the same size as the old 5mp sensor and it shows in the quality of the photographs. http://www.dpreview.com has lots of threads on this new camera if you look in the Sony Forum. alex
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
Yep ... the F828 ... should be v-e-r-r-r-y interesting to see how well it works. Its predecessors, the F717, was very highly regarded. J. C. O'Connell wrote: I just read somewhere that Sony ( or maybe it was minolta?) has a new digicam ( not slr) with 8Mpixel sensor! Looks like 6Mpixel is not the leveling off point in consumer models after all
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
Noisier I would assume. If they are going to increase the number of pixels, they should increase the sensor size along with it. Thats one of the reasons I lust after a 10Mpixel full frame sensor but the cost is out of reach by far at this point J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jcoconnell.com -Original Message- From: alex wetmore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 3:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I just read somewhere that Sony ( or maybe it was minolta?) has a new digicam ( not slr) with 8Mpixel sensor! They do. All of the sample photographs released so far have been pretty terrible though. They are producing an 8mp sensor that is the same size as the old 5mp sensor and it shows in the quality of the photographs. http://www.dpreview.com has lots of threads on this new camera if you look in the Sony Forum. alex
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
Where have you seen sample pics? Can you provide a URL? The dpreview preview had no photos ... oops, images. They do. All of the sample photographs released so far have been pretty terrible though. They are producing an 8mp sensor that is the same size as the old 5mp sensor and it shows in the quality of the photographs. http://www.dpreview.com has lots of threads on this new camera if you look in the Sony Forum. alex
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
The F717 doesn't impress me so much. Images are sharp (sharper than those taken by the *ist D, which is not so difficult), but noisy (=grainy) also at 100 ISO and too flat. Color balance is good, but the *ist D is better on this respect. I didn't buy the F717 and I won't buy the F828. Dario (very critical this late evening) Bonazza - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 10:05 PM Subject: Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. Yep ... the F828 ... should be v-e-r-r-r-y interesting to see how well it works. Its predecessors, the F717, was very highly regarded. J. C. O'Connell wrote: I just read somewhere that Sony ( or maybe it was minolta?) has a new digicam ( not slr) with 8Mpixel sensor! Looks like 6Mpixel is not the leveling off point in consumer models after all
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
JCO, so do you see we can agree? I'm fully with you on this topic. Dario (yawn) Bonazza - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 10:05 PM Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. Noisier I would assume. If they are going to increase the number of pixels, they should increase the sensor size along with it. Thats one of the reasons I lust after a 10Mpixel full frame sensor but the cost is out of reach by far at this point -- -- J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jcoconnell.com -- -- -Original Message- From: alex wetmore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 3:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I just read somewhere that Sony ( or maybe it was minolta?) has a new digicam ( not slr) with 8Mpixel sensor! They do. All of the sample photographs released so far have been pretty terrible though. They are producing an 8mp sensor that is the same size as the old 5mp sensor and it shows in the quality of the photographs. http://www.dpreview.com has lots of threads on this new camera if you look in the Sony Forum. alex
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
on 11/20/03 10:15 PM, Shel Belinkoff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where have you seen sample pics? Can you provide a URL? The dpreview preview had no photos ... oops, images. Someone posted first sample from his just-bought F828. http://www.pbase.com/image/23462004exif=Y Much better, than previous samples, and seems to be slightly better than images from F717, althought it is still no match for 6MPix DSLR. -- Pozdrowienia Sylwek
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Shel Belinkoff wrote: They do. All of the sample photographs released so far have been pretty terrible though. They are producing an 8mp sensor that is the same size as the old 5mp sensor and it shows in the quality of the photographs. http://www.dpreview.com has lots of threads on this new camera if you look in the Sony Forum. Where have you seen sample pics? Can you provide a URL? The dpreview preview had no photos ... oops, images. Just read the Sony Forum on there and you'll find tons of threads talking about samples, usually with links to the samples. I haven't read the forums in a few weeks so I can't point you to current good threads. That said, I have a DSC-F717, new, in box that I'll sell for $550 plus shipping if anyone is looking for one. I bought a DSC-F717 a year ago with an extended Sears warranty. It was one of the first models with the low light autofocus bug. When I bought the *ist D I took the DSC-F717 back to Sears to trade it for one without the bug. I haven't opened the box of that one. There is still about a year left on the extended warranty too. The DSC-F717 is a great camera, but I don't think that I'll use it much now that I have the *ist D. I think it is about the best non-DSLR out there though. alex
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
The Sony F828 is not on store shelves yet. It's not a DSLR but it will probably be a great camera for the price. 8MP, a CZ T* zoom lens, and the same night photo capabilities of the F717, plus the ability to use CF cards and microdrives as well as Sony's proprietary memory stick. It could well become my Point and Shoot of choice, if the price is under US$1000.00 Len * There's no place like 127.0.0.1 -Original Message- From: J. C. O'Connell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 2:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. I just read somewhere that Sony ( or maybe it was minolta?) has a new digicam ( not slr) with 8Mpixel sensor! Looks like 6Mpixel is not the leveling off point in consumer models after all -- -- J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jcoconnell.com -- --
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
Sylwester Pietrzyk wrote: Yes, but at the start CDs offered better quality than longplays. I'm sorry but I can't agree with that a good quality record player in a good stereo system a cd can't touch a LP much less a high quality pressed LP. Sure. As long as you're young enough to have ears to appreciate it, have an amplifier that is designed for the response curve of a phono cartridge, and can somehow manage to keep dust and hair out of the environment. For the other 99% of us CDs are a vast improvement. (They fit in the car much better, too. Ever try using a car-mounted record player?) Let's face it - most people are perfectly happy listening to MP3s. It's a waste of time arguing the finer points of the quality of CD vs. vinyl.
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
Hi, This is surely a moot point. It is well nigh impossible to buy new LP records and the equipment needed to play them. The reason is because the marketplace has spoken, and the LP is out. At the moment, the marketplace is talking about film vs. digital. As soon as film loses, it's gone. I was rather amazed today when I bought 'Let It Be... Naked' (on CD) to see equal prominence in the Virgin Records UK flagship store given to the vinyl LP version. -- Cheers, Bobmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
Wrong, there are tons of new models of turntables coming out and also tons of ultra high quality reissue LPs. The high end audio market has spoken and the winner IS NOT CD. CDs are a mass market mid fi product to be played on crappy $300 compact stereos J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jcoconnell.com -Original Message- From: William Robb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 4:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. - Original Message - From: Paul Eriksson Subject: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. Sylwester Pietrzyk wrote: Yes, but at the start CDs offered better quality than longplays. I'm sorry but I can't agree with that a good quality record player in a good stereo system a cd can't touch a LP much less a high quality pressed LP. This is surely a moot point. It is well nigh impossible to buy new LP records and the equipment needed to play them. The reason is because the marketplace has spoken, and the LP is out. At the moment, the marketplace is talking about film vs. digital. As soon as film loses, it's gone. William Robb
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
On 19 Nov 2003 at 18:19, J. C. O'Connell wrote: Wrong, there are tons of new models of turntables coming out and also tons of ultra high quality reissue LPs. The high end audio market has spoken and the winner IS NOT CD. CDs are a mass market mid fi product to be played on crappy $300 compact stereos So millions of $300 mid-(to low) fi mini-systems beat (in a market acceptance sense) how many 10K+ turntables per annum? LOL For your info I do own a high end TT and I don't beleive that vinyl better or worse than CD (I own 2 top end CD players and 2 external DACS), they are entirely different media, each has it's advantges but none is more musical than the other. SACD however has the vinyl brigade in a huff. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
I have a friend who has about a $100k audio system ($29K loudspeakers) and he has invested heavily in both analog and CD. On his system, the best LPs crush CDs, it isnt even close and his digital stuff cost about 20K including upsamplers, jitterboxes, etc. His phono rig is also about 20KLPs cant sound simply amazing when done right. CD is history like you mentioned, SACD and DVD-A both beat it and sound closer to LP J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jcoconnell.com -Original Message- From: Rob Studdert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. On 19 Nov 2003 at 18:19, J. C. O'Connell wrote: Wrong, there are tons of new models of turntables coming out and also tons of ultra high quality reissue LPs. The high end audio market has spoken and the winner IS NOT CD. CDs are a mass market mid fi product to be played on crappy $300 compact stereos So millions of $300 mid-(to low) fi mini-systems beat (in a market acceptance sense) how many 10K+ turntables per annum? LOL For your info I do own a high end TT and I don't beleive that vinyl better or worse than CD (I own 2 top end CD players and 2 external DACS), they are entirely different media, each has it's advantges but none is more musical than the other. SACD however has the vinyl brigade in a huff. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
J. C. O'Connell wrote: I have a friend who has about a $100k audio system ($29K loudspeakers) and he has invested heavily in both analog and CD. On his system, the best LPs crush CDs, it isnt even close and his digital stuff cost about 20K including upsamplers, jitterboxes, etc. His phono rig is also about 20KLPs cant sound simply amazing when done right. CD is history like you mentioned, SACD and DVD-A both beat it and sound closer to LP Agreed. LP's have a brilliance and better presence when played through the right gear that CD's can't touch. Don't get me wrong, the quality of CD's are good, but therein lies the trouble. They are too perfect when it comes to sound. Digital has limits and can and often does clip the highs and lows of the original recordings. My money is on LP's all the way. Guess that's why I still listen to the well over 2500+ ones I have. -- Gary -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.197 / Virus Database: 261.2.0 - Release Date: 11/18/2003
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
On 19 Nov 2003 at 19:13, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I have a friend who has about a $100k audio system ($29K loudspeakers) and he has invested heavily in both analog and CD. On his system, the best LPs crush CDs, it isnt even close and his digital stuff cost about 20K including upsamplers, jitterboxes, etc. His phono rig is also about 20KLPs cant sound simply amazing when done right. CD is history like you mentioned, SACD and DVD-A both beat it and sound closer to LP Each to their own. Well executed double blind audio testing often leads to fractured fantasies particularly where large sums of money are involved, pity you can always tell vinyl by the noise. :-) Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
- Original Message - From: Rob Studdert Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. I have a friend who has about a $100k audio system ($29K loudspeakers) and he has invested heavily in both analog and CD. On his system, the best LPs crush CDs, it isnt even close and his digital stuff cost about 20K including upsamplers, jitterboxes, etc. His phono rig is also about 20KLPs cant sound simply amazing when done right. CD is history like you mentioned, SACD and DVD-A both beat it and sound closer to LP Each to their own. Well executed double blind audio testing often leads to fractured fantasies particularly where large sums of money are involved, pity you can always tell vinyl by the noise. :-) Lets face it, how many $100K audio systems are there in private hands? I would seriously doubt that there are more than a few thousand systems of that value in peoples living rooms. It may be enough to support a cottage industry of like minded people with too much spending money, but I wouldn't exactly call it a marketplace (which is what I was talking about in the first place). Hell, if everyone really cared about the purportedly better sound quality of LP records, the MP3 player would never have been born. William Robb
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
the golden ears hate double blind tests because they can't tell when they are listening to the better system. it's at it's most fantastic when the the switch and cable aren't connected to anything and they are listening to the same system the entire time. Herb - Original Message - From: Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. Each to their own. Well executed double blind audio testing often leads to fractured fantasies particularly where large sums of money are involved, pity you can always tell vinyl by the noise. :-)
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
And if everybody cared about picture quality there wouldnt be disposable cameras and 35mm. Just because something is popular doesnt mean their isnt something MUCH better out there.High end vinyl is like large format photography. You cant get it at walmart. J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jcoconnell.com -Original Message- From: William Robb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. - Original Message - From: Rob Studdert Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. I have a friend who has about a $100k audio system ($29K loudspeakers) and he has invested heavily in both analog and CD. On his system, the best LPs crush CDs, it isnt even close and his digital stuff cost about 20K including upsamplers, jitterboxes, etc. His phono rig is also about 20KLPs cant sound simply amazing when done right. CD is history like you mentioned, SACD and DVD-A both beat it and sound closer to LP Each to their own. Well executed double blind audio testing often leads to fractured fantasies particularly where large sums of money are involved, pity you can always tell vinyl by the noise. :-) Lets face it, how many $100K audio systems are there in private hands? I would seriously doubt that there are more than a few thousand systems of that value in peoples living rooms. It may be enough to support a cottage industry of like minded people with too much spending money, but I wouldn't exactly call it a marketplace (which is what I was talking about in the first place). Hell, if everyone really cared about the purportedly better sound quality of LP records, the MP3 player would never have been born. William Robb
RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
I suggest you listen to a really good system for a few hours and then switch to average system. If you cant hear the difference, you are very unfortuneate because it is like day and night. J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jcoconnell.com -Original Message- From: Herb Chong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. the golden ears hate double blind tests because they can't tell when they are listening to the better system. it's at it's most fantastic when the the switch and cable aren't connected to anything and they are listening to the same system the entire time. Herb - Original Message - From: Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. Each to their own. Well executed double blind audio testing often leads to fractured fantasies particularly where large sums of money are involved, pity you can always tell vinyl by the noise. :-)
Re: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu.
i have and i know. you pull this on the Naktalk mailing list too. Herb... - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:40 PM Subject: RE: way OT: CD/LP was A conversation with Noritsu. I suggest you listen to a really good system for a few hours and then switch to average system. If you cant hear the difference, you are very unfortuneate because it is like day and night.
