BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
Hello and apologies for the cross-posting. PLEASE TRIM FOLLOW-UPS TO PERL-QA ONLY. All other non-discussion queries regarding this matter may be directed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Finance::FuturesQuote scrapes information from a web site that offers (I would imagine) futures quotes. The author of this module has received a cease-and-desist letter from the owner of the web site, since the module is in violation of the Terms of Use. The module is currently not available on CPAN, but it still lurks on the BackPAN (which is where the site owner tracked it down). I don't know off-hand the exact list of who is currently mirroring, I think there are two or three people only. All publicly accessible BackPAN mirrors must pull this distribution manually, given that rsync-without-delete won't do it for you. I don't know of any better way of reaching potential backpan admins, if anyone has a good suggestion I'm all ears. (I'll post to c.l.p.m from home tonight). Thanks, David
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 17:42 +0100, David Landgren wrote: All publicly accessible BackPAN mirrors must pull this distribution manually, given that rsync-without-delete won't do it for you. What legal precedent is there here? Violating the ToS is the responsibility of the user of the module, not people distributing the module. Let's not kill the free software movement by deleting anything that anyone with a lawyer requests to be deleted. Regards, Jonathan Rockway signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 08:53:52 Jonathan Rockway wrote: What legal precedent is there here? Violating the ToS is the responsibility of the user of the module, not people distributing the module. Would you also distribute a module which effectively performed a DoS against search.cpan.org and *.perl.org? -- c
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 09:25 -0800, chromatic wrote: On Tuesday 27 November 2007 08:53:52 Jonathan Rockway wrote: What legal precedent is there here? Violating the ToS is the responsibility of the user of the module, not people distributing the module. Would you also distribute a module which effectively performed a DoS against search.cpan.org and *.perl.org? Please delete Firefox from the Internet, since users can click reload repeatedly and DoS a slow site. This module is just a web browser. Users are responsible for the actions of users, not the author of software that the user happens to use. BTW, I created: http://programming.reddit.com/info/61jsd/comments/ For general (snarky) discussion. This issue doesn't really concern perl-qa, since it's just going to be a big flamefest. Infecting technical mailing lists with flames and legal wanking isn't helpful to the community. My apologies for the messages so far, but this sort of thing makes my blood boil :) Regards, Jonathan Rockway signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 11:31:53AM -0600, Jonathan Rockway ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Would you also distribute a module which effectively performed a DoS against search.cpan.org and *.perl.org? Please delete Firefox from the Internet, since users can click reload repeatedly and DoS a slow site. I think he means a legal DoS, where armies of bank-payrolled lawyers come in and CD the entire *.cpan.org and *.perl.org infrastructure. -- Andy Lester = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = www.petdance.com = AIM:petdance
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andy Lester a écrit : I think he means a legal DoS, where armies of bank-payrolled lawyers come in and CD the entire *.cpan.org and *.perl.org infrastructure. Then by all means, start transfering those TLDs over to a Swiss registrar, now! - -- Tout n'y est pas parfait, mais on y honore certainement les jardiniers Dominique Quatravaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBR0xXXPTYH7KfeIIFAQIGrgP9H5iCp2E/7sIB/bQI30lBuJ2MN2iv3zWz yymhO0BNQ8u7nK31oXFbj9JCSm1LlspVquUUkPVjtEna/jEJEOndzdtBdNnhj7Tv lZPRgG2nuEMAPSvhwD/3N6tImHSXIcNZnBWdWw8sJey+pLDKVjnVOW0eq5om16du glFAOUg74mw= =xxPI -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
On Nov 27, 2007 11:42 AM, David Landgren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The module is currently not available on CPAN, but it still lurks on the BackPAN (which is where the site owner tracked it down). I don't know off-hand the exact list of who is currently mirroring, I think there are two or three people only. All publicly accessible BackPAN mirrors must pull this distribution manually, given that rsync-without-delete won't do it for you. So delete it on the master BackPAN and let the lawyers send cease desist letters to all the mirrors. Or let the author track down the mirrors. Does the *module* violate the TC or does *using* the module violate the TC? Are the TC valid in all countries, for that matter? Once the offending module is down from CPAN and BackPAN, I think the community's responsibility is done. David
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 09:45:59 Andy Lester wrote: I think he means a legal DoS, where armies of bank-payrolled lawyers come in and CD the entire *.cpan.org and *.perl.org infrastructure. If I provide a free public resource and you abuse it, I think I have a right to ask you to stop abusing it. I'm all for free software, but if we're going to ask people to respect the licenses of our source code and TPF's trademarks, I think we ought to have some sympathy for other people who provide software or services for Free (With Some Rights Reserved). That includes not violating their terms of service. The important questions are Is there any use of this module which does *not* violate the site operator's terms of service? and Does the primary use of this module violate the site operator's terms of service? The jerking of knees in any direction before answering those questions (or even *asking* the author for his or her preference!) is unwise. -- c
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
Jonathan Rockway wrote: On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 17:42 +0100, David Landgren wrote: Let's not kill the free software movement by deleting anything that anyone with a lawyer requests to be deleted. I don't think it's anything so serious. It's more like you played, you lost. The web site owners have to show that they care about protecting their information, which might supported by a click-through ad banner revenue stream or something like that. I am well aware of the futility of the quest, what with Goggle's cache in the short term, and things like the Internet Archive and the Wayback machine in the long term. Nevertheless we have to appear to respond actively to something like this. David PS: I kept a copy of Time::Cubic if you're interested :)
Not a QA issue (was Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote)
As interesting / important as all this might be or might not be, it has nothing to do with quality assurance. Take it elsewhere. Perhaps Groklaw, they might actually have some legal knowledge. And please don't replace the argument with an argument about how this is somehow related to QA. David Golden wrote: On Nov 27, 2007 11:42 AM, David Landgren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The module is currently not available on CPAN, but it still lurks on the BackPAN (which is where the site owner tracked it down). I don't know off-hand the exact list of who is currently mirroring, I think there are two or three people only. All publicly accessible BackPAN mirrors must pull this distribution manually, given that rsync-without-delete won't do it for you. So delete it on the master BackPAN and let the lawyers send cease desist letters to all the mirrors. Or let the author track down the mirrors. Does the *module* violate the TC or does *using* the module violate the TC? Are the TC valid in all countries, for that matter? Once the offending module is down from CPAN and BackPAN, I think the community's responsibility is done. -- You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here. -- Jayne Cobb, Firefly
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
* David Landgren [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-11-27 17:45]: PLEASE TRIM FOLLOW-UPS TO PERL-QA ONLY. How on Earth is this topical on perl-qa? I’m replying to perl-qa despite Michael’s request because that’s where the thread now is, but sensible this ain’t. The author of this module has received a cease-and-desist letter from the owner of the web site, since the module is in violation of the Terms of Use. Does the module violate their ToS or its use? In all possible case? All publicly accessible BackPAN mirrors must pull this distribution manually, given that rsync-without-delete won't do it for you. Why? Assuming the answer to first question is that the module itself violates the ToS, do all publicly accessible BackPAN mirrors reside on jurisdictions where the ToS is valid and the legal repercussions of its violation applicable? I don't know of any better way of reaching potential backpan admins, if anyone has a good suggestion I'm all ears. Maybe you should have done that *before* spamming unrelated lists? The sky is not falling. Slow down and gather your wits. If the site owners’ demand is in fact legitimate, this should be handled through applicable venues and procedures. Breathless panic and suspension of due diligence is inappropriate. * Dominique Quatravaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-11-27 18:00]: http://kilimandjaro.dyndns.org/~dom/FuturesQuote-0.01.pm Come on now. I have no idea whether that thing is any good, but these scare tactics from The Man are just silly. * Jonathan Rockway [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-11-27 18:10]: I recommend we delete the AUTHOR information and distribute this module on thepiratebay. I will definitely seed the torrent. Gee, you’re some rebels. Haven’t you people grown out of puberty yet? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
On Nov 27, 2007 12:45 PM, Andy Lester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think he means a legal DoS, where armies of bank-payrolled lawyers come in and CD the entire *.cpan.org and *.perl.org infrastructure. This is where I would hope that a small guerrilla force of TPF lawyers to jump in and issue the legal equivalent of go to hell. Not for this module -- I mean for a threat to the entire infrastructure. I would assume that the infrastructure would be treated as an ISP. For reference on CD letters: http://fairusenetwork.org/reference/cd.php David
RE: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Jim Schneider wrote: David Landgren wrote: Finance::FuturesQuote scrapes information from a web site that offers (I would imagine) futures quotes. The author of this module has received a cease-and-desist letter from the owner of the web site, since the module is in violation of the Terms of Use. I'm guessing, since the website's owner sent a cd, that this is information that's available without having to log in or solve a captcha. That would give the site's Terms of Use about as much legal standing as those disclaimers of windshield damage liability on the back of dump trucks. I'd be surprised if the module's author were to actually be sued over this (although stranger things have happened), especially since the author no longer has control over the module. Of course, I can't impose my own risk tolerance on anyone else, but I doubt I'd be willing to go through this many hoops for a cease and desist with no legal basis. Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer, just a guy who's had to talk to way too many of them. This has come up before (e.g. the WWW::EuroTV removal request in 2003). I still have the same opinion I had back then: | I think this discussion is missing the point. It should not be: What | can we legally get away with?, but Do we have the courtesy to | respect the wishes of publishers of information?, even if their | wishes might not be legally enforceable. | | Since this is about Perl advocacy, I would like to quote a bit of Perl | culture: It [Perl] would prefer that you stayed out of its living | room because you weren't invited, not because it has a shotgun. | | I think the same rules should apply for screenscrapers too: If website | owners don't want their pages to be scraped, then people shouldn't do | it and get their information elsewhere. It is like honoring a | robots.txt file. It is probably not enforceable, but it is the right | thing to do. http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg01761.html Cheers, -Jan
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
* Jan Dubois [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-11-28 02:50]: This has come up before (e.g. the WWW::EuroTV removal request in 2003). I still have the same opinion I had back then: | I think this discussion is missing the point. It should not | be: What can we legally get away with?, but Do we have the | courtesy to respect the wishes of publishers of | information?, even if their wishes might not be legally | enforceable. | | Since this is about Perl advocacy, I would like to quote a | bit of Perl culture: It [Perl] would prefer that you stayed | out of its living room because you weren't invited, not | because it has a shotgun. | | I think the same rules should apply for screenscrapers too: | If website owners don't want their pages to be scraped, then | people shouldn't do it and get their information elsewhere. | It is like honoring a robots.txt file. It is probably not | enforceable, but it is the right thing to do. Mostly, I agree. However, there are a number of courtesies in play here beyond the one you mention. Note that we are talking about many more parties than just the site owners and the author of the module. We are also talking about CPAN administrators and the CPAN mirror adminstrators. It is more than courteous of all of them not to take action against the interests of a module author on behalf of a third party without verifying the third party’s demands as legitimate and reasonable. “My freedom ends where yours begins” goes both ways. Also, your quote about the shotgun very much applies: the site owners sent a Cease and Desist. If they escalate to legal weapons, I am inclined to respond by examining their demand on legal grounds. If instead they *asked* the module author to please remove the module, and the module author himself in turn *asked* the CPAN administrators and CPAN mirror administrators to respect his wish to comply with the wish of the site owners, that would make for a very different situation and I would be readily willing to forgo formalities. But Paul Grinberg has yet to surface to say anything for himself, and while it may well be that the site owners tried asking him first, I can only go by the fraction of the story that I know about. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: BackPAN mirror owners: please delete Finance::FuturesQuote
Shawn Boyette ☠ wrote: On Nov 27, 2007 12:25 PM, chromatic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 27 November 2007 08:53:52 Jonathan Rockway wrote: What legal precedent is there here? Violating the ToS is the responsibility of the user of the module, not people distributing the module. Would you also distribute a module which effectively performed a DoS against search.cpan.org and *.perl.org? There must be some story missing here. Those of us who are only on perl-qa and not whatever list this got started on know nothing except what was stated in David Landgren's message, which, free of context, comes across as somewhere between reactionary and panicky. Barring any revelations (which I now hope are forthcoming), I tend to agree with jrockway. Yes, please accept my apologies for that. There is no list that I am aware of that would have been better. If you know how to get in touch with people who are not obliged to tell you who they are (and even if they did there is no formal channel for doing so) then I'm all ears. Admins running backpan are free to ignore my request and do nothing, that's fine by me, it's not like I'm paid for it. I've done my part by getting the word out, and if we ever hear back from the company (which I doubt) we'll say we did what we could. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Perl-QA. Thanks, David
