Re: Perl versus UNIX Korn Shell
Esposito, Anthony wrote: How would you convince someone that programming in Perl is better than using the UNIX Korn Shell? I need some intellectual ammo to convince my colleagues that Perl is a better, more powerful language, to do our scripting. Any suggestions? J The shell doesn't do most of the work. Mostly, you're calling external programs, like grep, cat, sort, etc. These don't all have a consistent interface, and they differ from one system to another. Plus, you'll likely end up having to learn sed and/or awk. Why learn all these different tools, plus perhaps two additional languages (sed and awk)? It's all available in Perl, plus much more, including a nice debugger. And well-written Perl scripts are portable. BTW, if you insist writing a shell script and need something like awk, why not use Perl instead of awk? There are a few cases where I would favor bash over Perl - when it's easier to call several existing utilities than to install additional Perl modules (avoid the clutter of those system(...) calls), and when I have a very short script that needs to redirect its output to a file. -- Danny R. Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://tejasconsulting.com/
Re: OSCON Perl Trainers BOF is *6pm* Monday
Peter Scott wrote: I apologize for the lack of notice; the BOF was moved to 6pm some time ago and for some reason the web site wasn't updated and I forgot to post an update here. Hope you can make it. We'll be in Salon F. Sorry I only got to see you guys for a few minutes - I had made plans based on the 7pm time. I added a page on the Wiki at http://oscon.kwiki.org/index.cgi?PerlTrainers to identify which trainers are here at OSCON and to continue a virtual discussion as the need arises. -- Danny R. Faught Tejas Software Consulting publisher of Open Testware Reviews - http://tejasconsulting.com/open-testware/
roommate for OSCON
Read on if you're going to OSCON this July and would consider sharing hotel costs. I'd like to stay at the conference hotel (high speed Internet!) but would like to reduce the costs by sharing the room. I have a reservation at $129 per night at the Marriott. I'll be there July 6-11 but it's okay if the schedules don't match exactly . Let me know know if you wouldn't mind having a roommate. Decided to try here before using O'Reilly's generic roommate list. -- Danny R. Faught Tejas Software Consulting - subscribe to Open Testware Reviews - http://tejasconsulting.com/open-testware/
Re: professional associations
Michael R. Wolf wrote: What organizations have helped you as a trainer? That is, how have you advanced your training skills, as distinguished from your technical skills? The most help I've gotten hasn't been from a formal organization, but from hanging out with Jerry Weinberg's groupies, sometimes joking referred to as Weinborgs because of the way people tend to get assimilated (willingly) into his community. Jerry is a legendary pioneer in the software industry, though at least half of the software professionals I ask have never heard of him. He's authored probably 30 books. I'm attending his workshop on experiential training design next month, where I'm hoping to learn how to involve the participants much more in my courses. (Sorry, the course is full, with a long waiting list.) Maybe I'll also learn how to rely less on PowerPoint - Jerry never uses PowerPoint. I've learned a lot of soft skills from Jerry, especially communication skills. I used them today teaching a kid who supposedly has a learning difficulty (I didn't see any difficulty - perhaps I'm blind to it because I have the same problem he does :-). I could go on, but I'll leave it at that. The easiest way to get introduced to Jerry, besides reading his books or meeting him in person, is to subscribe to the SHAPE forum - http://geraldmweinberg.com/shape.html. BTW, thanks for the pointers. I ought to look up some of those organizations. I tried Toastmaster a few times. My problem is that I don't get nervous enough in front of a crowd any more. -- Danny R. Faught Tejas Software Consulting - subscribe to Open Testware Reviews - http://tejasconsulting.com/open-testware/
learning programming in one day
I have an opportunity to propose a one-day conference tutorial on the basics of programming (very likely using Perl as a basis). Am I nuts for trying this? The audience will be software testing professionals, with a good level of computer literacy, but probably little or no programming experience. There is a general desire among many testers to learn how to program so they can automate their tests. I can't hope to make them programming wizards by the end of one day. I'm thinking I could introduce them to the basics so they'd be more motivated and able to learn more from a book or a longer course. Alternately, I could specify that participants already know at least one programming language, and I could focus on teaching Perl. I already do a tutorial that does this to some extent, though I currently focus more on testing techniques than systematically teaching Perl. Any feedback on this before I put together a proposal? -- Danny R. Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://tejasconsulting.com/
Re: script to mimic the cusor movement on a terminer or shell
Automating interactive programs take some extra work. Does the program accept input immediately after it starts, or do you need to wait until the screen is drawn? I cut my teeth on this sort of thing using expect/tcl, and it looks like there are Perl modules that can also let you do sent/expect sequences so that everything is properly synchronized. -- Danny Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://tejasconsulting.com/
Re: 2nd best Perl publisher
Tim Maher wrote: And so far, nobody's commented on my inqury regarding help with diagrams. My experience with magazines is that they really love illustrations, and they provide professionals to do them. Perhaps it's the same with books. Authors sometimes have trouble coming up with illustrations for technical topics. -- Danny Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://www.tejasconsulting.com
Re: 2nd-Best Perl Publisher?
Clinton A. Pierce wrote: I'll second the Scott Meyers/SAMS notion. They're a fairly easy publisher to write for, a good book will earn a fair sum, and Scott has his head screwed on straight. I did a pre-publication review for Software Testing by Ron Patton and published by Sams. The editing was really top-notch, and that's not something I see very often. I didn't like the fact he referenced very little of the existing literature, though - I don't recall whether Sams insisted on this or not, since it targets a beginning audience. There were several references to other books from Sams that were marginally relevant, though there's a vast wealth of highly relevant literature from other publishers. -- Danny Faught (former Books Guide editor for StickyMinds.com) Tejas Software Consulting http://www.tejasconsulting.com
Re: 2nd-Best Perl Publisher?
Tim Maher wrote: In contrast, I've been warned that I might not even get minimum wage for the hours I put into my book with some of the other publishers out there. (And I seem to recall Randal remarking in this forum that, Camels and Cookbooks aside, Perl book-writing is better viewed as a charitable contribution than a money-making venture). I know many authors who have written about software testing and software process. All say that they got much more value from the book in marketing their services than in the miniscule money they earned directly from the book. This cuts across many publishers (though none have gone through O'Reilly.) Many of the books go out of print within a few years. The only person who's ever told me he's made a decent profit from a book is Steve Heller, and he writes technology-based books (actually, probably more like what you're proposing than what most of my colleagues write). The criteria by which I'm currently considering best-osity (ouch!) would include a competent Perl-aware editorial staff, help with diagrams (do they still do that in the industry?), adequate promotion of the product, honestly keeping their side of the bargain, etc. Am I leaving out any important criteria? Policy for reverting rights when it goes out of print. Competent and experienced editorial staff (competent in editing, not just in the technology), especially the particular editor you will get - watch out for a bait-and-switch to a junior editor. Which publishers get your vote for second-Nth best ? I haven't shopped around seriously yet - none of my book ideas have come up for air yet. But I see many books coming out of Addison Wesley/Pearson, Wiley, and Dorset House. A small publisher that has courted me is Artech House. And I've seen a few from Sam's/Macmillan. These are who I plan to start with. I've heard a few horror stories about Wiley (e.g., dreadfully poor editing), and a few others who had no problems with Wiley. Again, these are more process- and industry-oriented books; I'm not sure how many of these labels publish highly technical books. I tend to stick with O'Reilly when I can - I think second place is a distant second. Consider getting a book agent. -- Danny Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://www.tejasconsulting.com
Re: How to Run Seminars... [was: Giving my first Perl presentation]
Michael R. Wolf wrote: As part of a Training Certification at a community college outside Princeton, NJ, I took a course that was taken directly (and I mean directly) from this book. Very interesting - I hadn't heard of any courses based on the book. Could you say more about the Training Certification? -- Danny Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://www.tejasconsulting.com
Re: private CS tutor rates
Michael R. Wolf wrote: I got the following request from a friend of mine. Do you have any suggestions to help him with a price point for private computer science tutoring? As a benchmark, I know someone with a Computer Moms (Mentors on the Move) franchise. She helps ordinary folks learn how to use their computers, and thus is probably at a lower skill level than what you're talking about. She charges $75/hour. -Danny
Re: Marketing help wanted
Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Speaking at conferences is necessary to establish a reputation and to practice your craft, but it's not really a great market for new customers, unless you make sure you're *really* visible during the rest of the conference. I often get involved behind the scenes, and that helps with name recognition. I was a track chair at the last conference I went to, and I'm on the board of the next one. I've been known to organize dinners, like when many of the people on my swtest-discuss mailing list are going to be at the same conference. Yeah, everything I loathed about sales when I was a simple grunt technician, I now find I must do to sell Stonehenge. Schmooze. Throw parties. Have an exhibit booth. Network with past associates. Yup. :-) There's a bit of a difference selling a company and selling an independent consultant. As an individual, I don't think it makes sense for me to have a booth. I spend my time at conferences meeting people, and maintaining contacts with my peers who are a rich source of referrals. It's more about having a few meaningful contacts than blanketing the market. I find this approach much more rewarding than when I was doing technical sales support for a consulting firm. It's not enough to simply give a brilliant talk at a conference. The people that hang around afterward are mostly just tech-heads, usually. I'm told that doing a full-day tutorial is much better than a track session talk. Only for a longer format do they get a sense of your ability as a trainer. I agree that it's not sufficient. I figure that people have to run across my work along at least two or three independent paths before they'll start to trust me. I've left bread crumbs on lots of different paths to facilitate this. :-) -- Danny Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://www.tejasconsulting.com
Re: Marketing help wanted
William R Ward wrote: Sure, if it's made worth my while financially. But I'm also working a full time job, so I can't do it often (I have to take vacation time to do it). I have a colleague who insists on working full-time while doing training on the side. I honestly don't understand how that business model works, but he seems to be happy with it. Probably evening or weekend courses done in installments like I'm guessing you're doing. That would have to be all local gigs. Apparently he even does consulting work. Several folks I've seen hanging out in alt.computer.consultants.moderated try to get a consulting practice off the ground this way, though the negative reaction we've seen on this list is also common there. But finding such gigs is even harder, I would think. If you sign on with a training company that markets nationally, then you'll probably have to travel. Being open to travel makes things easier, opens up many more opportunities. Of course, you'll have to play by their rules, even if you use your own material. It wouldn't work for you if you're really an independent spirit. Most of what I've been doing for the last six months or so is just conference tutorials. It doesn't pay very well, but I've been told it's a good way to market myself for more serious gigs. And of course I get to practice my skills, and I get free admission to the conference and partial travel reimbursement. It's pretty cool seeing my picture on the brochure that's going out to like-minded folks nationwide. -- Danny Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://www.tejasconsulting.com
Re: experiential exercises
Vicki Brown wrote: Just to get things straight as I lurk on this thread. Are we talking experiential as the subject states, or experimental as people have used in their replies... the two words do not really have the same meaning... It's a strange word, isn't it! My original question was about experiential training. (As in, the Association for Experiential Education, http://www.aee.org/ - little to nothing about technical training there, though.) It's encouraging to hear that people have been using some semblance of experiential exercises for perl training. I'd love to hear any other examples or experiences. -- Danny Faught Tejas Software Consulting http://www.tejasconsulting.com
