Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
Matthieu Imbert wrote: scenario 1 - parse the textual representation of all results of requests to the database and convert textual timestamps to a binary format that i choose among those ones (number of microseconds since 2000-01-01, or a structure similar to pg_tm (but with microsecond precision), or a time-format similar to one defined in rfc1305, or something else) or scenario 2 - directly use pgsql binary timestamp format. I think the latter is far more efficient. I'm new to postgresql, but from what i understand, here are the conversions involved in both scenarios (hopping that my ascii art won't be garbled by your mail clients ;-) : scenario 1: .-. .--. .-. .--. .--. .--. .-. |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp | |my | |my | |storage |-|internal |-|storage |-|network |-|as|-|timestamp |-|timestamp| |in | |to| |in | |to| |textual | |conversion| |format | |database | |network | |network | |textual | |representation| |routines | | | |backend | |conversion| | | |conversion| | | | | | | | | |function | | | |function | | | | | | | '-' '--' '-' '--' '--' '--' '-' I think this scenario has two boxes too many. Why would the backend convert to network representation before converting to text? Jeroen -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
Jeroen Vermeulen wrote: Matthieu Imbert wrote: scenario 1 - parse the textual representation of all results of requests to the database and convert textual timestamps to a binary format that i choose among those ones (number of microseconds since 2000-01-01, or a structure similar to pg_tm (but with microsecond precision), or a time-format similar to one defined in rfc1305, or something else) or scenario 2 - directly use pgsql binary timestamp format. I think the latter is far more efficient. I'm new to postgresql, but from what i understand, here are the conversions involved in both scenarios (hopping that my ascii art won't be garbled by your mail clients ;-) : scenario 1: .-. .--. .-. .--. .--. .--. .-. |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp | |my | |my | |storage |-|internal |-|storage |-|network |-|as |-|timestamp |-|timestamp| |in | |to| |in | |to| |textual | |conversion| |format | |database | |network | |network | |textual | |representation| |routines | | | |backend | |conversion| | | |conversion| | | | | | | | | |function | | | |function | | | | | | | '-' '--' '-' '--' '--' '--' '-' I think this scenario has two boxes too many. Why would the backend convert to network representation before converting to text? Jeroen You mean that when results are asked in textual representation (the default), data is sent on network directly as text? -- Matthieu -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
Matthieu Imbert wrote: You mean that when results are asked in textual representation (the default), data is sent on network directly as text? Yes. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Matthieu Imbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeroen Vermeulen wrote: Matthieu Imbert wrote: scenario 1 - parse the textual representation of all results of requests to the database and convert textual timestamps to a binary format that i choose among those ones (number of microseconds since 2000-01-01, or a structure similar to pg_tm (but with microsecond precision), or a time-format similar to one defined in rfc1305, or something else) or scenario 2 - directly use pgsql binary timestamp format. I think the latter is far more efficient. I'm new to postgresql, but from what i understand, here are the conversions involved in both scenarios (hopping that my ascii art won't be garbled by your mail clients ;-) : scenario 1: .-. .--. .-. .--. .--. .--. .-. |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp | |my | |my | |storage |-|internal |-|storage |-|network |-|as |-|timestamp |-|timestamp| |in | |to| |in | |to| |textual | |conversion| |format | |database | |network | |network | |textual | |representation| |routines | | | |backend | |conversion| | | |conversion| | | | | | | | | |function | | | |function | | | | | | | '-' '--' '-' '--' '--' '--' '-' I think this scenario has two boxes too many. Why would the backend convert to network representation before converting to text? Jeroen You mean that when results are asked in textual representation (the default), data is sent on network directly as text? yes. You should know that text/binary conversions rarely play a significant role in terms of performance. There are exceptions...large bytea columns, or enormous sets of integers. This is coming from a guy that co-wrote a library that allows you to pull data directly in binary. merlin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
You mean that when results are asked in textual representation (the default), data is sent on network directly as text? yes. You should know that text/binary conversions rarely play a significant role in terms of performance. There are exceptions...large bytea columns, or enormous sets of integers. This is coming from a guy that co-wrote a library that allows you to pull data directly in binary. merlin If I remember correctly, composites and composite arrays also show worth while performance gains. libpq array and composite handling is what initially spawned the libpqtypes project (which required providing type handling for every basic type like int and text). So, different types were implemented for different reasons, it was not all performance. The ultimate functionality we were looking for was multiple result sets, which composite arrays solve nicely. -- Andrew Chernow eSilo, LLC every bit counts http://www.esilo.com/ -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Andrew Chernow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean that when results are asked in textual representation (the default), data is sent on network directly as text? You should know that text/binary conversions rarely play a significant role in terms of performance. There are exceptions...large bytea columns, or enormous sets of integers. This is coming from a guy that co-wrote a library that allows you to pull data directly in binary. merlin If I remember correctly, composites and composite arrays also show worth while performance gains. libpq array and composite handling is what initially spawned the libpqtypes project (which required providing type handling for every basic type like int and text). So, different types were implemented for different reasons, it was not all performance. The ultimate functionality we were looking for was multiple result sets, which composite arrays solve nicely. sure. That isn't, strictly speaking, a performance argument...it's also a convenience thing. You won't see a difference either way unless the arrays are large, or a lot of them (big result sets). For smaller result sets, the overhead of executing the query is where all the time is spent. merlin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:21:38AM +0200, Matthieu Imbert wrote: I would like to be able to get results from SQL commands directly in a binary format, instead of a textual one. Actually, I want to be able to get timestamps with their full precision (microsecond). Are you sure you cannot get those in textual mode? If so I wonder why I got some numbers in a quick test: ... [NO_PID]: ecpg_execute on line 37: query: select * from date_test where d = $1 ; with 1 parameter(s) on connection regress1 [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: ecpg_execute on line 37: using PQexecParams [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: free_params on line 37: parameter 1 = 1966-01-17 [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: ecpg_execute on line 37: correctly got 1 tuples with 2 fields [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: ecpg_get_data on line 37: RESULT: 1966-01-17 offset: -1; array: yes [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: ecpg_get_data on line 37: RESULT: 2000-07-12 17:34:29.140787 offset: -1; array: yes [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 ... What do I miss here? Michael -- Michael Meskes Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De, Michael at Meskes dot (De|Com|Net|Org) Michael at BorussiaFan dot De, Meskes at (Debian|Postgresql) dot Org ICQ: 179140304, AIM/Yahoo: michaelmeskes, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Go VfL Borussia! Go SF 49ers! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL! -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
Michael Meskes wrote: On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:21:38AM +0200, Matthieu Imbert wrote: I would like to be able to get results from SQL commands directly in a binary format, instead of a textual one. Actually, I want to be able to get timestamps with their full precision (microsecond). Are you sure you cannot get those in textual mode? If so I wonder why I got some numbers in a quick test: ... [NO_PID]: ecpg_execute on line 37: query: select * from date_test where d = $1 ; with 1 parameter(s) on connection regress1 [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: ecpg_execute on line 37: using PQexecParams [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: free_params on line 37: parameter 1 = 1966-01-17 [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: ecpg_execute on line 37: correctly got 1 tuples with 2 fields [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: ecpg_get_data on line 37: RESULT: 1966-01-17 offset: -1; array: yes [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 [NO_PID]: ecpg_get_data on line 37: RESULT: 2000-07-12 17:34:29.140787 offset: -1; array: yes [NO_PID]: sqlca: code: 0, state: 0 ... What do I miss here? Michael Yes microseconds are available in textual mode but i do want to use binary mode. Let me explain why: - my data will be time series. So typical requests will return lots of timestamped data (mainly floats or int). - after extraction i need to have all timestamps stored in format convenient for calculations. I can accommodate different formats (for example: number of microseconds since 2000-01-01, or a structure similar to pg_tm (but with microsecond precision), or a time-format similar to one defined in rfc1305), but definitely storing timestamps as text is a no go for me. so i have two choices: scenario 1 - parse the textual representation of all results of requests to the database and convert textual timestamps to a binary format that i choose among those ones (number of microseconds since 2000-01-01, or a structure similar to pg_tm (but with microsecond precision), or a time-format similar to one defined in rfc1305, or something else) or scenario 2 - directly use pgsql binary timestamp format. I think the latter is far more efficient. I'm new to postgresql, but from what i understand, here are the conversions involved in both scenarios (hopping that my ascii art won't be garbled by your mail clients ;-) : scenario 1: .-. .--. .-. .--. .--. .--. .-. |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp | |my | |my | |storage |-|internal |-|storage |-|network |-|as |-|timestamp |-|timestamp| |in | |to| |in | |to| |textual | |conversion| |format | |database | |network | |network | |textual | |representation| |routines | | | |backend | |conversion| | | |conversion| | | | | | | | | |function | | | |function | | | | | | | '-' '--' '-' '--' '--' '--' '-' scenario 2: .-. .--. .-. .--. .-. |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp| |pgsql | |timestamp| |storage |-|internal |-|storage |-|network |-|official | |in | |to| |in | |to| |format | |database | |network | |network | |offical | | | |backend | |conversion| | | |conversion| | | | | |function | | | |function | | | '-' '--' '-' '--' '-' if i'm correct, it seems obvious that the second scenario is more efficient (and less ugly). In scenario 2, when talking about timestamp 'official' format, i mean timestamp expressed as number of microseconds since 2000-01-01. But of course, it only deserves this name 'official' if it is guaranteed to stay the same across postgresql versions and platforms -- Matthieu -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Matthieu Imbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear postgresql hackers, I would like to be able to get results from SQL commands directly in a binary format, instead of a textual one. Actually, I want to be able to get timestamps with their full precision (microsecond). googling around i found some threads on this mailing list about this: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-interfaces/2007-05/msg00047.php http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-interfaces/2007-06/msg0.php http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-interfaces/2007-03/msg7.php From these threads and from postgresql source code, i figured out how to get timestamp data the way i need it: - make a PQexecParams asking for results in binary format. - convert the returned 64 bits integer from network representation to host representation (reverse the order of the bytes or do nothing, depending on the endianness of the platform) - the resulting 64 bits integer is the number of microseconds since 2000-01-01 - convert this number of microseconds as needed. (my test code currently only handles the case where timestamps are int64) This works great but i have a few questions: - Is the binary representation of data (especially timestamps) subject to change in the future? - wouldn't it be a good think if functions for dealing with this binary representation are made available to client code (for example: pq_getmsgint64 in src/backend/libpq/pqformat.c or timestamp2tm in src/interfaces/ecpg/pgtypeslib/timestamp.c). Doing so would ensure that client code does not have to reimplement things already correctly done in postgres (with all special cases, and correct error handling), and would not be broken if the internals change. Moreover it would remove from client code the burden to handle both cases of timestamp as int64 or timestamp as double. In short, what i would like (as a libpq client code writer), is a function which given an opaque binary representation of a timestamp returns me the timestamp as a number of microseconds since 2000-01-01, and a function which given a timestamp as a number of microseconds since 2000-01-01 returns me a structure similar to pg_tm, but without loss of information (with microseconds). Of course, this would be needed not only for timestamps but also for other types. If this is not possible, at least what i would like is to be sure that the code i write for converting timestamp binary representation will not be broken by future postgresql release, and is portable. you really want to look at libpqtypes. It does exactly what you want, as well as provides easy to follow binary handlers for every basic type. http://pgfoundry.org/projects/libpqtypes/ http://libpqtypes.esilo.com/ merlin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] binary representation of datatypes
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 01:37:44PM +0200, Matthieu Imbert wrote: Yes microseconds are available in textual mode but i do want to use binary mode. Let me explain why: ... if i'm correct, it seems obvious that the second scenario is more efficient (and less ugly). I wouldn't bet on scenario 2 being more efficient. For this you not only need less conversions but also cheaper conversion. Now I haven't looked at this in detail, but you might spend a lot of time doing stuff that has only a marginal effect. In scenario 2, when talking about timestamp 'official' format, i mean timestamp expressed as number of microseconds since 2000-01-01. But of course, it only deserves this name 'official' if it is guaranteed to stay the same across postgresql versions and platforms You shouldn't rely on this. Again I'd recommend using text. Michael -- Michael Meskes Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De, Michael at Meskes dot (De|Com|Net|Org) Michael at BorussiaFan dot De, Meskes at (Debian|Postgresql) dot Org ICQ: 179140304, AIM/Yahoo: michaelmeskes, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Go VfL Borussia! Go SF 49ers! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL! -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
