Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)

[Russell Senior]

Moinmoin isn't a binary, fwiw.

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 17:31 Ted Mittelstaedt  wrote:

>
> > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
> >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to
> find
> and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a
> reasonable
> set of parameters).
>
> I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time simply
> paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these projects that
> they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead end, that they
> would
> have updated projects that work for a tenth of the price that Micro$oft
> wants them to pay for windows versions of things.
>
> How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use
> Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded to
> Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to build
> Moinmoin on it.  $5000 to the first person who fixes that and produces a
> functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public source"
>
> OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at
> fixing it themselves?
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul Heinlein
> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM
> To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
> Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks
> MediaWiki - why?)
>
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote:
>
> > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is
> > based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much
> > abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the
> > wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to
> > run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last
> > version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki.
> >
> >
> > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZRB
> > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELyVT
> > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy6c
> > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4xn
> > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV8B
> > ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D
> >
> > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's
> > wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update
> > to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while
> > I figured out what had gone wrong.
>
> This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends on
> dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, libraries, and
> even utilities. One or more of those lower-level packages gets deprecated,
> drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply doesn't keep up with the rest
> of
> the dependency ecosystem.
>
> Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
> (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find
> and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a reasonable
> set of parameters).
>
> I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy I
> wouldn't have a job.
>
> --
> Paul Heinlein
> heinl...@madboa.com
> 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W
>
>

Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)

[John Sechrest]

Perhaps a kickstarter campaign for the project?



On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:38 PM John Sechrest <
sechr...@seattleangelconference.com> wrote:

> Yep , just need someone to manage the project to closure.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:37 PM Ted Mittelstaedt 
> wrote:
>
>> $5k dropped on some overseas programming group in India will get you a
>> whole lotta translating!
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of John Sechrest
>> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:34 PM
>> To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
>> Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks
>> MediaWiki - why?)
>>
>> I wonder how far you would get by asking Bard or chatgpt or one of the
>> other AI things to translate Python 2 to current python
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:31 PM Ted Mittelstaedt 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
>> > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble
>> > >to
>> > find
>> > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a
>> > reasonable set of parameters).
>> >
>> > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time
>> > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these
>> > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead
>> > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of
>> > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of
>> > things.
>> >
>> > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use
>> > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded
>> > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to
>> > build Moinmoin on it.  $5000 to the first person who fixes that and
>> > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the
>> public source"
>> >
>> > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at
>> > fixing it themselves?
>> >
>> > Ted
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul
>> > Heinlein
>> > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM
>> > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
>> > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks
>> > MediaWiki - why?)
>> >
>> > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote:
>> >
>> > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x
>> > > is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty
>> > > much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that
>> > > the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22,
>> > > has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the
>> > > last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZ
>> > > RB
>> > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELy
>> > > VT
>> > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy
>> > > 6c
>> > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4
>> > > xn
>> > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV
>> > > 8B ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D
>> > >
>> > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal
>> > > Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried
>> > > to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief
>> > > outage while I figured out what had gone wrong.
>> >
>> > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends
>> > on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes,
>> > libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level
>> > packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply
>> > doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem.
>> >
>> > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
>> > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to
>> > find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a
>> > reasonable set of parameters).
>> >
>> > I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy
>> > I wouldn't have a job.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul Heinlein
>> > heinl...@madboa.com
>> > 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> --
>> [image: www.seattleangelconference.com]
>> 
>>
>> *JOHN SECHREST*
>> *Founder, *Seattle Angel Conference
>> TEL  (541) 250-0844EMAIL  sechr...@seattleangel.com
>> Schedule A Meeting 
>>
>> http://seattleangelconference.com
>> @nwangelconf
>>
>> An Investor driven event bringing together new investors and new
>> entrepreneurs to expand the startup ecosystem.
>>
>>
>
> --
> --
> [image: www.seattleangelconference.com]
> 
>
> *JOHN 

Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)

[John Sechrest]

Yep , just need someone to manage the project to closure.



On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:37 PM Ted Mittelstaedt 
wrote:

> $5k dropped on some overseas programming group in India will get you a
> whole lotta translating!
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of John Sechrest
> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:34 PM
> To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
> Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks
> MediaWiki - why?)
>
> I wonder how far you would get by asking Bard or chatgpt or one of the
> other AI things to translate Python 2 to current python
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:31 PM Ted Mittelstaedt 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
> > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble
> > >to
> > find
> > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a
> > reasonable set of parameters).
> >
> > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time
> > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these
> > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead
> > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of
> > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of
> > things.
> >
> > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use
> > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded
> > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to
> > build Moinmoin on it.  $5000 to the first person who fixes that and
> > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the
> public source"
> >
> > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at
> > fixing it themselves?
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> > Heinlein
> > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM
> > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
> > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks
> > MediaWiki - why?)
> >
> > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote:
> >
> > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x
> > > is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty
> > > much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that
> > > the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22,
> > > has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the
> > > last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki.
> > >
> > >
> > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZ
> > > RB
> > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELy
> > > VT
> > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy
> > > 6c
> > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4
> > > xn
> > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV
> > > 8B ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D
> > >
> > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal
> > > Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried
> > > to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief
> > > outage while I figured out what had gone wrong.
> >
> > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends
> > on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes,
> > libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level
> > packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply
> > doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem.
> >
> > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
> > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to
> > find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a
> > reasonable set of parameters).
> >
> > I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy
> > I wouldn't have a job.
> >
> > --
> > Paul Heinlein
> > heinl...@madboa.com
> > 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W
> >
> >
>
> --
> --
> [image: www.seattleangelconference.com]
> 
>
> *JOHN SECHREST*
> *Founder, *Seattle Angel Conference
> TEL  (541) 250-0844EMAIL  sechr...@seattleangel.com
> Schedule A Meeting 
>
> http://seattleangelconference.com
> @nwangelconf
>
> An Investor driven event bringing together new investors and new
> entrepreneurs to expand the startup ecosystem.
>
>

-- 
--
[image: www.seattleangelconference.com]


*JOHN SECHREST*
*Founder, *Seattle Angel Conference
TEL  (541) 250-0844EMAIL  sechr...@seattleangel.com
Schedule A Meeting 

http://seattleangelconference.com
@nwangelconf

An Investor driven event bringing together new investors and new

Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

$5k dropped on some overseas programming group in India will get you a whole 
lotta translating!

Ted

-Original Message-
From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of John Sechrest
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:34 PM
To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks 
MediaWiki - why?)

I wonder how far you would get by asking Bard or chatgpt or one of the other AI 
things to translate Python 2 to current python


On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:31 PM Ted Mittelstaedt 
wrote:

>
> > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
> >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble 
> >to
> find
> and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a 
> reasonable set of parameters).
>
> I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time 
> simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these 
> projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead 
> end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of 
> the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of 
> things.
>
> How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use 
> Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded 
> to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to 
> build Moinmoin on it.  $5000 to the first person who fixes that and 
> produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public 
> source"
>
> OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at 
> fixing it themselves?
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul 
> Heinlein
> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM
> To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
> Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks 
> MediaWiki - why?)
>
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote:
>
> > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x 
> > is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty 
> > much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that 
> > the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, 
> > has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the 
> > last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki.
> >
> >
> > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZ
> > RB 
> > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELy
> > VT 
> > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy
> > 6c 
> > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4
> > xn 
> > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV
> > 8B ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D
> >
> > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal 
> > Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried 
> > to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief 
> > outage while I figured out what had gone wrong.
>
> This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends 
> on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, 
> libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level 
> packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply 
> doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem.
>
> Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
> (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to 
> find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a 
> reasonable set of parameters).
>
> I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy 
> I wouldn't have a job.
>
> --
> Paul Heinlein
> heinl...@madboa.com
> 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W
>
>

--
--
[image: www.seattleangelconference.com]


*JOHN SECHREST*
*Founder, *Seattle Angel Conference
TEL  (541) 250-0844EMAIL  sechr...@seattleangel.com
Schedule A Meeting 

http://seattleangelconference.com
@nwangelconf

An Investor driven event bringing together new investors and new entrepreneurs 
to expand the startup ecosystem.

Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)

[John Sechrest]

I wonder how far you would get by asking Bard or chatgpt or one of the
other AI things to translate Python 2 to current python


On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:31 PM Ted Mittelstaedt 
wrote:

>
> > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
> >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to
> find
> and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a
> reasonable
> set of parameters).
>
> I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time simply
> paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these projects that
> they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead end, that they
> would
> have updated projects that work for a tenth of the price that Micro$oft
> wants them to pay for windows versions of things.
>
> How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use
> Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded to
> Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to build
> Moinmoin on it.  $5000 to the first person who fixes that and produces a
> functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public source"
>
> OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at
> fixing it themselves?
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul Heinlein
> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM
> To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
> Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks
> MediaWiki - why?)
>
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote:
>
> > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is
> > based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much
> > abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the
> > wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to
> > run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last
> > version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki.
> >
> >
> > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZRB
> > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELyVT
> > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy6c
> > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4xn
> > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV8B
> > ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D
> >
> > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's
> > wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update
> > to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while
> > I figured out what had gone wrong.
>
> This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends on
> dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, libraries, and
> even utilities. One or more of those lower-level packages gets deprecated,
> drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply doesn't keep up with the rest
> of
> the dependency ecosystem.
>
> Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
> (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find
> and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a reasonable
> set of parameters).
>
> I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy I
> wouldn't have a job.
>
> --
> Paul Heinlein
> heinl...@madboa.com
> 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W
>
>

-- 
--
[image: www.seattleangelconference.com]


*JOHN SECHREST*
*Founder, *Seattle Angel Conference
TEL  (541) 250-0844EMAIL  sechr...@seattleangel.com
Schedule A Meeting 

http://seattleangelconference.com
@nwangelconf

An Investor driven event bringing together new investors and new
entrepreneurs to expand the startup ecosystem.

Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

> a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
>(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find
and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a reasonable
set of parameters).

I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time simply
paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these projects that
they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead end, that they would
have updated projects that work for a tenth of the price that Micro$oft
wants them to pay for windows versions of things.

How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use
Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded to
Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to build
Moinmoin on it.  $5000 to the first person who fixes that and produces a
functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public source"

OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at
fixing it themselves?

Ted

-Original Message-
From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul Heinlein
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM
To: Portland Linux/Unix Group 
Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks
MediaWiki - why?)

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote:

> A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is 
> based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much 
> abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the 
> wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to 
> run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last 
> version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki.
>
>  
> https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZRB
> wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELyVT
> 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy6c
> RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4xn
> UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV8B
> ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D
>
> I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's 
> wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update 
> to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while 
> I figured out what had gone wrong.

This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends on
dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, libraries, and
even utilities. One or more of those lower-level packages gets deprecated,
drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply doesn't keep up with the rest of
the dependency ecosystem.

Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and
(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find
and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a reasonable
set of parameters).

I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy I
wouldn't have a job.

--
Paul Heinlein
heinl...@madboa.com
45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W

Re: [PLUG] Github question

[Russell Senior]

https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/other-site-policies/github-account-recovery-policy

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 3:24 PM Michael Ewan  wrote:
>
> That is the tricky part.  My Github account was linked in some corporate
> magic with my company email, and even though I remember the password it
> wants to verify with my old inaccessible company email.  I guess I will
> need to create a new account and forget about whatever I was working on in
> my personal account.
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 3:13 PM Rich Shepard 
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Michael Ewan wrote:
> >
> > > How does one delete a GitHub account? I have one from my previous
> > employer
> > > that I need to delete and use a previous personal (school) account.
> >
> > Login to your github account. In the upper, right corner there's a symbol
> > at
> > the right end; click on it.
> >
> > Select Settings -> My Account and that should allow you to delete it.
> > Otherwise it's somewhere else in the settings menu.
> >
> > Rich
> >

Re: [PLUG] Github question

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Michael Ewan wrote:


That is the tricky part. My Github account was linked in some corporate
magic with my company email, and even though I remember the password it
wants to verify with my old inaccessible company email. I guess I will
need to create a new account and forget about whatever I was working on in
my personal account.


Michael,

Create your personal account and ignore the old company account. I had a
shared account that has not been used for about 10 years. I ignored it and
at some point github saw it was past its best-used-by date and dropped it.
Now there's only the active shared account and my personal one.

Regards,

Rich

Re: [PLUG] Github question

[Michael Ewan]

That is the tricky part.  My Github account was linked in some corporate
magic with my company email, and even though I remember the password it
wants to verify with my old inaccessible company email.  I guess I will
need to create a new account and forget about whatever I was working on in
my personal account.

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 3:13 PM Rich Shepard 
wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Michael Ewan wrote:
>
> > How does one delete a GitHub account? I have one from my previous
> employer
> > that I need to delete and use a previous personal (school) account.
>
> Login to your github account. In the upper, right corner there's a symbol
> at
> the right end; click on it.
>
> Select Settings -> My Account and that should allow you to delete it.
> Otherwise it's somewhere else in the settings menu.
>
> Rich
>

Re: [PLUG] Github question

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Michael Ewan wrote:


How does one delete a GitHub account? I have one from my previous employer
that I need to delete and use a previous personal (school) account.


Login to your github account. In the upper, right corner there's a symbol at
the right end; click on it.

Select Settings -> My Account and that should allow you to delete it.
Otherwise it's somewhere else in the settings menu.

Rich

[PLUG] Github question

[Michael Ewan]

How does one delete a GitHub account? I have one from my previous employer
that I need to delete and use a previous personal (school) account.

Re: [PLUG] Replacing github public key [RESOLVED]

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Johnathan Mantey wrote:


https://docs.github.com/en/authentication/connecting-to-github-with-ssh/testing-your-ssh-connection


Many thanks, Johnathan. I'm now authenticated with github and sync'd my
local repo with github's.

Regards,

Rich

Re: [PLUG] Replacing github public key

[Johnathan Mantey]

https://docs.github.com/en/authentication/connecting-to-github-with-ssh/testing-your-ssh-connection

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 9:49 AM Rich Shepard 
wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Johnathan Mantey wrote:
>
> > Did you use their 'ssh -T url' function to see if ssh was configured
> > correctly?
>
> John,
>
> No. I assume that's some place after I log in to my github account. Yes?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich
>

Re: [PLUG] Replacing github public key

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Johnathan Mantey wrote:


Did you use their 'ssh -T url' function to see if ssh was configured
correctly?


John,

No. I assume that's some place after I log in to my github account. Yes?

Thanks,

Rich

Re: [PLUG] Replacing github public key

[Johnathan Mantey]

Did you use their 'ssh -T url' function to see if ssh was configured
correctly?

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 8:40 AM Rich Shepard 
wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Johnathan Mantey wrote:
>
> > Do you have any special settings in your .gitconfig?
>
> Nope; user, core, alias.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich
>

Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)

[Paul Heinlein]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote:


A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is
based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much
abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the
wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to
run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last
version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki.

 
https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZRBwGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELyVT2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy6cRPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4xnUhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV8BZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D

I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's
wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update
to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while
I figured out what had gone wrong.


This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends 
on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, 
libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level 
packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply 
doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem.


Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and 
(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to 
find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a 
reasonable set of parameters).


I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy 
I wouldn't have a job.


--
Paul Heinlein
heinl...@madboa.com
45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W

Re: [PLUG] Replacing github public key

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Johnathan Mantey wrote:


Do you have any special settings in your .gitconfig?


Nope; user, core, alias.

Thanks,

Rich

Re: [PLUG] Replacing github public key

[Johnathan Mantey]

Do you have any special settings in your .gitconfig?

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 8:16 AM Rich Shepard 
wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Ali Corbin wrote:
>
> > ssh is picky about permissions, and won't work if the keys are too open.
> > Mine are:
> > -rw---  1 ali ali  411 Jul 14  2022 id_ed25519
> > -rw-r--r--  1 ali ali  102 Jul 14  2022 id_ed25519.pub
>
> Ali,
>
> So are mine:
> -rw--- 1 rshepard users 1766 Jul 31 07:16 id_rsa.github
> -rw-r--r-- 1 rshepard users  406 Jul 31 07:16 id_rsa_github.pub
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich
>

Re: [PLUG] Replacing github public key

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Ali Corbin wrote:


ssh is picky about permissions, and won't work if the keys are too open.
Mine are:
-rw---  1 ali ali  411 Jul 14  2022 id_ed25519
-rw-r--r--  1 ali ali  102 Jul 14  2022 id_ed25519.pub


Ali,

So are mine:
-rw--- 1 rshepard users 1766 Jul 31 07:16 id_rsa.github
-rw-r--r-- 1 rshepard users  406 Jul 31 07:16 id_rsa_github.pub

Thanks,

Rich

Re: [PLUG] Replacing github public key

[Ali Corbin]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 7:46 AM Rich Shepard 
wrote:

> Somehow I managed to lose ~/.ssh/id_rsa_github so I just generated a new
> id_rsa key pair. Logged into my github account, deleted the old public key
> and added the new one (github's email shows it to be much shorter than the
> string in ~/.ssh/id_rsa_github.pub).
>
> However, it's not working. When I try to sync my local web site directory
> with its github origin/master directory my attempt fails:
> $ git push origin
> no such identity: /home/rshepard/.ssh/id_rsa_github: No such file or
> directory
> Permission denied (publickey).
> fatal: Could not read from remote repository.
>
> Please make sure you have the correct access rights
> and the repository exists
>
> Yet, in ~/.ssh/ there are both id_rsa_github and id_rsa_github.pub, both
> freshly generated.
>
> What have I missed?
>
> TIA,
>
> Rich
>

ssh is picky about permissions, and won't work if the keys are too open.
Mine are:
-rw---  1 ali ali  411 Jul 14  2022 id_ed25519
-rw-r--r--  1 ali ali  102 Jul 14  2022 id_ed25519.pub

[PLUG] Replacing github public key

[Rich Shepard]

Somehow I managed to lose ~/.ssh/id_rsa_github so I just generated a new
id_rsa key pair. Logged into my github account, deleted the old public key
and added the new one (github's email shows it to be much shorter than the
string in ~/.ssh/id_rsa_github.pub).

However, it's not working. When I try to sync my local web site directory
with its github origin/master directory my attempt fails:
$ git push origin
no such identity: /home/rshepard/.ssh/id_rsa_github: No such file or directory
Permission denied (publickey).
fatal: Could not read from remote repository.

Please make sure you have the correct access rights
and the repository exists

Yet, in ~/.ssh/ there are both id_rsa_github and id_rsa_github.pub, both
freshly generated.

What have I missed?

TIA,

Rich