Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
OK so if I want to port my existing business landline 480-947-6100 (in the original Scottsdale WHitney 7 exchange) to an Asterisk box... how do I go about doing that? Will Qwest even let me port an old number (which I don't want to lose) like that? Who do I pay to handle the SIP connection? Where do I start looking? \\/ http://www.wlindley.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
Laurence J. Peter - If two wrongs don't make a right, try three. On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Bill Lindley wlind...@wlindley.comwrote: OK so if I want to port my existing business landline 480-947-6100 (in the original Scottsdale WHitney 7 exchange) to an Asterisk box... how do I go about doing that? Will Qwest even let me port an old number (which I don't want to lose) like that? Who do I pay to handle the SIP connection? Where do I start looking? \\/ http://www.wlindley.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss I ported my old Qwest # to a voip provider (vitelity.net). The important part is to match the voip provider to your type of use. 99% of my calls are inbound so I chose an unlimited inbound plan and pay a little over 1 cent a minute for outbound calls if I use them. Porting takes a few weeks and it'll happen in an instant when it does; I had both set up and when it switched it was seamless. Before you switch try it out.. if your bandwidth isn't up to snuff it'll drive you crazy. I currently have 8 voip providers that I can use for outbound routes, several have DIDS for inbound calling: vitelity.net les.net voicepulse.com junctionnetworks.com voipstreet.com voipjet.com (outbound only) Gizmo5.com (uses sipphone.com) teliax.com Stay away from broadvoice :) -- JD Austin Twin Geckos Technology Services LLC j...@twingeckos.com 480.288.8195x201 http://www.twingeckos.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Bryan O'Neal bon...@cornerstonehome.comwrote: I apologize for not having more time, perhaps to dig up some of my old data. However the methodology went something like this. Equipment + Install + Configuration + User time cost + Time cost for upgrades, maintenance, and expansion/changes. Assuming you have an average size small business. In that small business you have ~40 phones and 50 employees. Each employee gets their own did. ~5 phones are executive (fancier model) and you have two which are for receptions. The receptions will monitor one of three main incoming lines and will need to know which one has been dialed before they answers. Similarly you will need 3 different dial by name directories which may or may not have some overlapping people. Each person needs to be able to switch between 3 preprogrammed settings on how their calls are handled. Integration with their business calendar so the phone system automatically switches between several settings depending on the individuals availability (in a meeting, out of office, etc.) is a big plus (ShoreTel does five settings as a base and was expandable but their was something about the expansion that I can not remember. It's probably been at least two years since you surveyed Asterisk offerings; it is a FAST moving target. You get all of the above with a standard Asterisk bundle (some of it works differently but accomplishes the same thing); it just has to be set up by someone like me initially (same as shoretel). The settings are a bit more flexible in an Asterisk/Freepbx based system; you get follow-me (call all of my numbers when you call my extension), vmx locator (mini-pbx press 1,2, or 3 to reach different destinations when they reach your voicemail), voicemail to email (I see you mentioned that below). There are other features built in that you didn't mention like built in tele-conference rooms, fax to email, and custom IVR's (menu's) to do things like give people directions and other information. You can build in just about anything. Systems come with standard integration with sip and iax voip; you can add skype. You can even have soft phones that employees can use when traveling when they have enough bandwidth to do so. ShoreTel also did the integration with Outlook, Lotus, and a half dozen other applications calendars out of the box, but since they publish their API you could program your own if you wanted) The business has 10 remote sites to manage. Some Asterisk Distributions have this, most don't. A few use Sugar CRM to accomplish this kind of functionality. There are MAPI plugins you can use but it's not widely used. About 10 users will require custom soft buttons. You hotel desks so that one physical phone may be used by several people during the course of a day so people need to be able to login and out of their phones easily. People also need to be able to quickly and easily record phone calls and manage those recordings. It is as easy as pressing a few buttons on the phone during a call (*1 on most systems). You can also use the phone as a dictation machine; it sends the resulting message via email. Voicemail must be integrated into email. It also needs to be trivial for people to mange DND exception lists. Both built in. It's fun to black list telemarketers. And you need to assume you will change out about 15 employees a year. You also require 10 departmental voice mail boxes that are integrated with a personas individual mail box for people who are authorized for that public box. In addition all equipment must be warranted for ten years. (etc. etc. etc.) This is what I remember of the PBX requirements Cornerstone Homes had back in 2005. Ah.. 2005; Asterisk was very primitive back then and probably WAS more expensive than shoretel. Freepbx as asterisk management portal then and didn't have 1/10th of the features it has now. Depending on which vendor I buy it from I can get a lifetime warranty for phones for an extra $20/phone usually; that only covers the hardware itself. With Asterisk systems you can pick whatever phone you want from a cheapie $50 phone to an expensive $300 phone; I just did an asterisk installation with all Cisco phones... it turned out nice! Does Shoretel warranty their phones if you don't use them with a Shoretel system? If so I'll gladly use them :) Running this sort of system the cost of having some one set it all up, train local non-technical staff on how to maintain this, and provide support had a total cost of about $20,000 for equipment, install, and training. The one place Asterisk lacks right now is training. It is such a fast moving target that there is little end-user documentation out there. I'm in the process of writing my own. In addition training cost was about 15 min per employee plus 45 min for the HR department who managed the systems operation. I originally estimated this at
Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Bryan O'Neal bon...@cornerstonehome.comwrote: I apologize for not having more time, perhaps to dig up some of my old data. However the methodology went something like this. Equipment + Install + Configuration + User time cost + Time cost for upgrades, maintenance, and expansion/changes. Assuming you have an average size small business. In that small business you have ~40 phones and 50 employees. Each employee gets their own did. ~5 phones are executive (fancier model) and you have two which are for receptions. The receptions will monitor one of three main incoming lines and will need to know which one has been dialed before they answers. Similarly you will need 3 different dial by name directories which may or may not have some overlapping people. Each person needs to be able to switch between 3 preprogrammed settings on how their calls are handled. Integration with their business calendar so the phone system automatically switches between several settings depending on the individuals availability (in a meeting, out of office, etc.) is a big plus (ShoreTel does five settings as a base and was expandable but their was something about the expansion that I can not remember. ShoreTel also did the integration with Outlook, Lotus, and a half dozen other applications calendars out of the box, Another big plus for Asterisk is that there is No Telling which pbx vendors will survive. Nortell just filed for bankruptcy and will probably be split and sold off to the highest bidder; if it can happen to them it can happen to Shoretel. I'm sure Asterisk distributions will come (I used to use adminsparadise.. they're gone) and go over the years too but at least you can re-use your hardware and move on. -- JD Austin Twin Geckos Technology Services LLC j...@twingeckos.com 480.288.8195x201 http://www.twingeckos.com Fran Lebowitz - You're only has good as your last haircut. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
Thank you very much for the update on Asterisks! I have always had a soft spot for it and am exited that it is expanding into the market nicely :) As for maintaining my servers, with cornerstone I was the director of IT but their was never a desire to higher another sysadmin so I spent almost 20% of my time touching my servers in some way. With my salary that is significantly more then $2K, however I never broke down how much was truly development that I just categorized as maintenance. however, this includes regular system audits and other functions that would be performed no mater what the server OS. When you say you don't spend $2K a year I have to ask, do you not maintain your servers or do you have some incredibly inexpensive sysadmin :) At speekback.com I spent closer 10 60% of my time doing sysadmin work, but we were in the midst of a fast development curve. As for support they will continue doing critical support with regards to upgrades and patches for free even after the support contract expires, however if you just want some new funky module that does not effect you current base system (say you wanted the ability to upload your own custom rings onto your phone in mp3 format) you have to pay for it. This really was something that came up after our contract expired. As far as the support of Linux vs. Asterisks in house support it is just a matter of additional workload. If you have follow resource it is not a real expense, however if you resources are already close to max, you must consider employing a new person to handle the additional workload... Or pay your current people more, or run the risk of them getting burnt out. From what you say, I would say Asterisk cost has come way down and I am very happy :) _ From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of JD Austin Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:50 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?) On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Bryan O'Neal bon...@cornerstonehome.com wrote: I apologize for not having more time, perhaps to dig up some of my old data. However the methodology went something like this. Equipment + Install + Configuration + User time cost + Time cost for upgrades, maintenance, and expansion/changes. Assuming you have an average size small business. In that small business you have ~40 phones and 50 employees. Each employee gets their own did. ~5 phones are executive (fancier model) and you have two which are for receptions. The receptions will monitor one of three main incoming lines and will need to know which one has been dialed before they answers. Similarly you will need 3 different dial by name directories which may or may not have some overlapping people. Each person needs to be able to switch between 3 preprogrammed settings on how their calls are handled. Integration with their business calendar so the phone system automatically switches between several settings depending on the individuals availability (in a meeting, out of office, etc.) is a big plus (ShoreTel does five settings as a base and was expandable but their was something about the expansion that I can not remember. It's probably been at least two years since you surveyed Asterisk offerings; it is a FAST moving target. You get all of the above with a standard Asterisk bundle (some of it works differently but accomplishes the same thing); it just has to be set up by someone like me initially (same as shoretel). The settings are a bit more flexible in an Asterisk/Freepbx based system; you get follow-me (call all of my numbers when you call my extension), vmx locator (mini-pbx press 1,2, or 3 to reach different destinations when they reach your voicemail), voicemail to email (I see you mentioned that below). There are other features built in that you didn't mention like built in tele-conference rooms, fax to email, and custom IVR's (menu's) to do things like give people directions and other information. You can build in just about anything. Systems come with standard integration with sip and iax voip; you can add skype. You can even have soft phones that employees can use when traveling when they have enough bandwidth to do so. ShoreTel also did the integration with Outlook, Lotus, and a half dozen other applications calendars out of the box, but since they publish their API you could program your own if you wanted) The business has 10 remote sites to manage. Some Asterisk Distributions have this, most don't. A few use Sugar CRM to accomplish this kind of functionality. There are MAPI plugins you can use but it's not widely used. About 10 users will require custom soft buttons. You hotel desks so that one physical phone may be used by several people during the course of a day so people need to be able to login and out of their phones easily. People also need to be able
Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Bryan O'Neal bon...@cornerstonehome.comwrote: Thank you very much for the update on Asterisks! I have always had a soft spot for it and am exited that it is expanding into the market nicely :) As for maintaining my servers, with cornerstone I was the director of IT but their was never a desire to higher another sysadmin so I spent almost 20% of my time touching my servers in some way. With my salary that is significantly more then $2K, however I never broke down how much was truly development that I just categorized as maintenance. however, this includes regular system audits and other functions that would be performed no mater what the server OS. When you say you don't spend $2K a year I have to ask, do you not maintain your servers or do you have some incredibly inexpensive sysadmin :) At speekback.com I spent closer 10 60% of my time doing sysadmin work, but we were in the midst of a fast development curve. As for support they will continue doing critical support with regards to upgrades and patches for free even after the support contract expires, however if you just want some new funky module that does not effect you current base system (say you wanted the ability to upload your own custom rings onto your phone in mp3 format) you have to pay for it. This really was something that came up after our contract expired. As far as the support of Linux vs. Asterisks in house support it is just a matter of additional workload. If you have follow resource it is not a real expense, however if you resources are already close to max, you must consider employing a new person to handle the additional workload... Or pay your current people more, or run the risk of them getting burnt out. From what you say, I would say Asterisk cost has come way down and I am very happy :) -- Asterisk has come a long way since I started using it in late 2003. Back then it was in my opinion a neat toy. Sure you COULD build great things with it back then but it had too many issues at the time to put all your eggs in that basket (the same as Linux was in 1995). Each issue released was a crapshoot.. some worked and some didn't. It has attained very serious momentum since then and changes so fast it's sometimes hard to keep up. I waited 3 years for it to get mature and stable enough to build a production system with it. Digium, the company driving the asterisk/zaptel/dahdi source, keeps changing the API's for no good reason which breaks existing installations built on it; they're 'upsetting' the developers. Some time in the next few years I believe FreeSwitch will over take Asterisk and be the telephony back end of choice. Some great projects like FreePBX (it used to be called Asterisk Management Portal) have given Asterisk the stability it needed and made building re-producable systems possible. At the core of the most popular Asterisk bundles is Linux+Asterisk+FreePBX. I was attracted to Asterisk because it had almost everything I knew wrapped into one thing and it just has the neato factor :) From it you can build office PBX systems, call centers, calling card systems, and other custom telephony applications. It's going through the same kind of transformation that Linux did.. started out as something only geeks could use and evolved into a stable platform that rivals the big unixes. I'm glad to be in the middle of it's evolution like I was with Linux. I installed BSD first and said ok.. now what. Then installed Linux because I'd picked up a book on it. Funny to think that I'd have been a BSD guy if I'd had a BSD book instead in 1993. -- JD Austin Twin Geckos Technology Services LLC j...@twingeckos.com 480.288.8195x201 http://www.twingeckos.com Fran Lebowitz - You're only has good as your last haircut. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 23:48 -0700, JD Austin wrote: And for cost I can put an exchange system in for a 70 person office with all the clients and servers licensed from scratch with AD and everything, including the server and my time to set it up for less then $1500. Windows Server 2003 (Standard) to get AD: ~$600.00 (Can be $400.00 when doing OEM...sometimes as low as $300.00...depends on the salesman you deal with.) CAL's for 70 users to connect to AD/Exchange: Independently is $30/user, with office suite is $200.00/user. Either way you want to look at it, you're well over $2100.00 in just user access. You could do CPU licensing, which *may* bring you into the $2000.00 range for unlimited connections. Now, you can bring the argument of MOLP licensing. Even *then*, you're over 2k. And don't forget you MSSQL database purchase, which is over $1000.00 there. I haven't administered a large enterprise, myself. So maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. However, I have done several research reports for my school papers and have dug deeply into MS's *published* pricing models that allow as much freedom as possible. You will find steep discounts at a large corporate level. But a 70 user site is hardly any company that MS will give a large corporate level discount to. So, maybe I just don't have the real world experience that people want to try and rely on. However, I do have the legally published prices and academic research to back my claim. That claim is that a 70 user site with Active Directory and MSSQL backend will take you into at least the $2500.00 range. And don't forget to add in your costs for figuring out the licensing structure and administering license compliance. That can get to be higher than you thinkthan most people think, actually. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
. The cost per hour of telephone outage in the middle of a work day for my employer at the time was calculated to be approximately $10,000 and one call center I interviewed averaged 4 hours a year of outage; so I just tossed their estimation of maintenance time out. Although it was really inside the range of others, but they were also a larger institution having about 200 phones attached to the system in three different call centers (funny thing is they shrank to less then 40 in three years, funny economy) So, I have a two year cost of ShoreTel as $26K (actual cost was actually about $35K including the fax system, but we would have plugged that fax system into any phone system we would have purchased, save Avaya, which had their own fax system) Estimated cost over two years for a Asterisks system was about $45K or almost twice the cost. This is not to mention I could not find nearly the refinement of productivity tools or PIM integration. What do you believe a modern cost of installing and maintaining this sort of system would be today for Asterisks? I know, this is really short and not a full analysis, and I also understand the number of people supporting asterisks in the valley has increased so my numbers may be a bit off. By the way, if you already have an experienced ShoreTel person on staff and purchased ShoreTel equipment off of eBay today from small and mid size companies that have not survived this economic downturn, then your looking at about $5K in equipment and licensing costs for the same install. _ From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of JD Austin Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:48 PM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?) Why do you think TCO of an Asterisk system is HIGHER than shortel or Avaya? -- JD Austin Twin Geckos Technology Services LLC j...@twingeckos.com 480.288.8195x201 http://www.twingeckos.com P. J. O'Rourke - Everybody knows how to raise children, except the people who have them. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Bryan O'Neal bon...@cornerstonehome.com wrote: Craig, I think you are missing the point. So, not to call you out on the carpet here but have you ever managed a large enterprise? If so could you please explain your ideal concept of how you manage to keep productivity high and cost low without use of any non-free or non-open products? Take Asterisk for example. I love it but the total cost of ownership is outrageously high in comparison to systems like Avaya and ShoreTel. And that is without the incredible ease of integration of systems like ShoreTel have with outlook. You bag on Exchange but offer no comparative substitute. You complain about the fact it uses AD and how much it costs even though it is included free in several flavors of Exchange distribution. You complain about mailbox implementation but seem to think it is the only DB your company would be running. How do you back up your Oracle, MySQL, DB2, or Postges systems? And again with the scanning, it provides it's own free scanning system, however it is idiotic to be dinging the bulk of your spam scanning on the mail server. By the time it reaches your server the cost of resources expended to handle it far outweigh the cost of third party scanning. And the fact that Third party AV scans can be integrated easily is not a bad thing, saying so is like saying postfix sucks because you can use spamassisen and calmav. In fact I can use clamAV but it does not provide the same level of service for the same maintenance cost of better products like Avast. That said you say the only client is outlook, so my question is what server/client system do you have that provides anywhere near as much to the party as exchange/outlook? If you have one I would really, really, love to try it out! But I have not found one. Certainly Cyrus is not it. And for cost I can put an exchange system in for a 70 person office with all the clients and servers licensed from scratch with AD and everything, including the server and my time to set it up for less then $1500. In addition each users outlook costs only $40 and that also includes all the other MS bundled stuff we have not talked about (Share point, etc.). And while there are far better solutions for nearly all of it (especially MS SQL Server) Tell me now. Can you purchase a server, provide a integrated collaborative PIM suite in a single interface providing mail, contacts, basic CRM, takes, notes, and journal com tracking for the same price? If so I really would like to see it because I have bee hunting for this for almost 10 years! I hold fast that Exchange is one of very, very few MS products that has a very high ROI. And, have you every had to integrate a BES with something other then Exchange? Or are you some one who has never managed more then a handful of mobile devices. Now
RE: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
True Office can be expensive. When purchased OEM it typically drops from $200 to $60 (or free depending on how desperate our Dell rep was that day) But we are just looking at outlook, so $30 is about rite. As for kind of licensing I did users, since we had about 1.25 machines per user. You don't need MSSQL to operate exchange, but if you get the SBSP edition it comes part and parcel. Licensing compliance is a sunk cost if you have to set up and maintain the licensing for any product including the OS and any core products used to run the business, such as the accounting software, production management, warranty service, etc., etc. So while it is a real cost, it should be one most medium businesses have already incurred. However, if not and it is not required then it really does need to be considered in the Exchange purchasing decision. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Jason Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 6:13 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?) On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 23:48 -0700, JD Austin wrote: And for cost I can put an exchange system in for a 70 person office with all the clients and servers licensed from scratch with AD and everything, including the server and my time to set it up for less then $1500. Windows Server 2003 (Standard) to get AD: ~$600.00 (Can be $400.00 when doing OEM...sometimes as low as $300.00...depends on the salesman you deal with.) CAL's for 70 users to connect to AD/Exchange: Independently is $30/user, with office suite is $200.00/user. Either way you want to look at it, you're well over $2100.00 in just user access. You could do CPU licensing, which *may* bring you into the $2000.00 range for unlimited connections. Now, you can bring the argument of MOLP licensing. Even *then*, you're over 2k. And don't forget you MSSQL database purchase, which is over $1000.00 there. I haven't administered a large enterprise, myself. So maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. However, I have done several research reports for my school papers and have dug deeply into MS's *published* pricing models that allow as much freedom as possible. You will find steep discounts at a large corporate level. But a 70 user site is hardly any company that MS will give a large corporate level discount to. So, maybe I just don't have the real world experience that people want to try and rely on. However, I do have the legally published prices and academic research to back my claim. That claim is that a 70 user site with Active Directory and MSSQL backend will take you into at least the $2500.00 range. And don't forget to add in your costs for figuring out the licensing structure and administering license compliance. That can get to be higher than you thinkthan most people think, actually. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
Craig, I think you are missing the point. So, not to call you out on the carpet here but have you ever managed a large enterprise? If so could you please explain your ideal concept of how you manage to keep productivity high and cost low without use of any non-free or non-open products? Take Asterisk for example. I love it but the total cost of ownership is outrageously high in comparison to systems like Avaya and ShoreTel. And that is without the incredible ease of integration of systems like ShoreTel have with outlook. You bag on Exchange but offer no comparative substitute. You complain about the fact it uses AD and how much it costs even though it is included free in several flavors of Exchange distribution. You complain about mailbox implementation but seem to think it is the only DB your company would be running. How do you back up your Oracle, MySQL, DB2, or Postges systems? And again with the scanning, it provides it's own free scanning system, however it is idiotic to be dinging the bulk of your spam scanning on the mail server. By the time it reaches your server the cost of resources expended to handle it far outweigh the cost of third party scanning. And the fact that Third party AV scans can be integrated easily is not a bad thing, saying so is like saying postfix sucks because you can use spamassisen and calmav. In fact I can use clamAV but it does not provide the same level of service for the same maintenance cost of better products like Avast. That said you say the only client is outlook, so my question is what server/client system do you have that provides anywhere near as much to the party as exchange/outlook? If you have one I would really, really, love to try it out! But I have not found one. Certainly Cyrus is not it. And for cost I can put an exchange system in for a 70 person office with all the clients and servers licensed from scratch with AD and everything, including the server and my time to set it up for less then $1500. In addition each users outlook costs only $40 and that also includes all the other MS bundled stuff we have not talked about (Share point, etc.). And while there are far better solutions for nearly all of it (especially MS SQL Server) Tell me now. Can you purchase a server, provide a integrated collaborative PIM suite in a single interface providing mail, contacts, basic CRM, takes, notes, and journal com tracking for the same price? If so I really would like to see it because I have bee hunting for this for almost 10 years! I hold fast that Exchange is one of very, very few MS products that has a very high ROI. And, have you every had to integrate a BES with something other then Exchange? Or are you some one who has never managed more then a handful of mobile devices. Now if you're a single person or a company of 5 it is stupid to implement exchange. Use Google. If you're a fleet of sales people who never talk to each other and have an independent sales management application, then again, Exchange is not your option, but for most small campus based businesses that employ a group of average people who need to communicate easily with their teams exchange is your answer. In the real world your business needs and the bottom line dictate the solution, not your personal feelings. And time and time again, for medium business after medium business, Exchange has provided. If you really want we can conger up an average small company prototype and each deliver a robust communications plan. But I think your average CFP will pick the exchange plan every time. And yes one of my three home computers is MS, and yes I run outlook on it (Evolution and thunderbird on the other two) But Outlook is my primary PIM. I find on lists like this I have the fringe voice of pay/proprietary software, just like in the business world I am the fringe voice of free and open source. So, I get flamed from both sides. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Craig White Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:24 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: RE: OT:Exchange good? (Was:Re: new hotness?) On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 09:45 -0700, Bryan O'Neal wrote: I disagree... Mostly. - Tough to backup Like any database it needs to be shut down for standard file backups to work properly. This can be done via a simple script and is not a real issue. However the use of back up programs like BackupExec make it a breeze to back up and restore. However I will agree that if you never had to deal with it before and you don't have much space and you don't have something like Backup Exec it can be daunting to figure out how to get regular backups working. That said I also like to run all the clients so they keep a copy of all activity locally. Not only does this speed up the clients but it also ensures that if the server suddenly went belly up and the last
Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
Would it be fair to say that MS keeps just enough of exchange or its communication methods secret so that it is hard for others (OSS projects) to create the same seamless integration available using the MS native programs without buying a license for the secret technology . It seems that the $1500 price makes it a great short term investment. Then there is a constant pull to just use a ms solution because it plugs in nicely.I see that as being what grates on folks. Sort of related I heard that upcoming Samba 4 will be able to act as an AD server will that continue to help with penetration into the enterprise market? --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
I firmly second that motion. Particularly ones economical for the very small and very large enterprises _ From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Eric Cope Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 3:04 PM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?) I too am interested in a FOSS version of Exchange, so if anyone has any recommendations, I am all ears. Eric On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Bryan O'Neal bon...@cornerstonehome.com wrote: Craig, I think you are missing the point. So, not to call you out on the carpet here but have you ever managed a large enterprise? If so could you please explain your ideal concept of how you manage to keep productivity high and cost low without use of any non-free or non-open products? Take Asterisk for example. I love it but the total cost of ownership is outrageously high in comparison to systems like Avaya and ShoreTel. And that is without the incredible ease of integration of systems like ShoreTel have with outlook. You bag on Exchange but offer no comparative substitute. You complain about the fact it uses AD and how much it costs even though it is included free in several flavors of Exchange distribution. You complain about mailbox implementation but seem to think it is the only DB your company would be running. How do you back up your Oracle, MySQL, DB2, or Postges systems? And again with the scanning, it provides it's own free scanning system, however it is idiotic to be dinging the bulk of your spam scanning on the mail server. By the time it reaches your server the cost of resources expended to handle it far outweigh the cost of third party scanning. And the fact that Third party AV scans can be integrated easily is not a bad thing, saying so is like saying postfix sucks because you can use spamassisen and calmav. In fact I can use clamAV but it does not provide the same level of service for the same maintenance cost of better products like Avast. That said you say the only client is outlook, so my question is what server/client system do you have that provides anywhere near as much to the party as exchange/outlook? If you have one I would really, really, love to try it out! But I have not found one. Certainly Cyrus is not it. And for cost I can put an exchange system in for a 70 person office with all the clients and servers licensed from scratch with AD and everything, including the server and my time to set it up for less then $1500. In addition each users outlook costs only $40 and that also includes all the other MS bundled stuff we have not talked about (Share point, etc.). And while there are far better solutions for nearly all of it (especially MS SQL Server) Tell me now. Can you purchase a server, provide a integrated collaborative PIM suite in a single interface providing mail, contacts, basic CRM, takes, notes, and journal com tracking for the same price? If so I really would like to see it because I have bee hunting for this for almost 10 years! I hold fast that Exchange is one of very, very few MS products that has a very high ROI. And, have you every had to integrate a BES with something other then Exchange? Or are you some one who has never managed more then a handful of mobile devices. Now if you're a single person or a company of 5 it is stupid to implement exchange. Use Google. If you're a fleet of sales people who never talk to each other and have an independent sales management application, then again, Exchange is not your option, but for most small campus based businesses that employ a group of average people who need to communicate easily with their teams exchange is your answer. In the real world your business needs and the bottom line dictate the solution, not your personal feelings. And time and time again, for medium business after medium business, Exchange has provided. If you really want we can conger up an average small company prototype and each deliver a robust communications plan. But I think your average CFP will pick the exchange plan every time. And yes one of my three home computers is MS, and yes I run outlook on it (Evolution and thunderbird on the other two) But Outlook is my primary PIM. I find on lists like this I have the fringe voice of pay/proprietary software, just like in the business world I am the fringe voice of free and open source. So, I get flamed from both sides. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Craig White Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:24 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: RE: OT:Exchange good? (Was:Re: new hotness?) On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 09:45 -0700, Bryan O'Neal wrote: I disagree... Mostly. - Tough to backup Like any database it needs to be shut down for standard file backups to work properly
Re: OT:Exchange good? - And the flame wars begin (Was:Re: new hotness?)
Why do you think TCO of an Asterisk system is HIGHER than shortel or Avaya? -- JD Austin Twin Geckos Technology Services LLC j...@twingeckos.com 480.288.8195x201 http://www.twingeckos.com P. J. O'Rourke - Everybody knows how to raise children, except the people who have them. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Bryan O'Neal bon...@cornerstonehome.comwrote: Craig, I think you are missing the point. So, not to call you out on the carpet here but have you ever managed a large enterprise? If so could you please explain your ideal concept of how you manage to keep productivity high and cost low without use of any non-free or non-open products? Take Asterisk for example. I love it but the total cost of ownership is outrageously high in comparison to systems like Avaya and ShoreTel. And that is without the incredible ease of integration of systems like ShoreTel have with outlook. You bag on Exchange but offer no comparative substitute. You complain about the fact it uses AD and how much it costs even though it is included free in several flavors of Exchange distribution. You complain about mailbox implementation but seem to think it is the only DB your company would be running. How do you back up your Oracle, MySQL, DB2, or Postges systems? And again with the scanning, it provides it's own free scanning system, however it is idiotic to be dinging the bulk of your spam scanning on the mail server. By the time it reaches your server the cost of resources expended to handle it far outweigh the cost of third party scanning. And the fact that Third party AV scans can be integrated easily is not a bad thing, saying so is like saying postfix sucks because you can use spamassisen and calmav. In fact I can use clamAV but it does not provide the same level of service for the same maintenance cost of better products like Avast. That said you say the only client is outlook, so my question is what server/client system do you have that provides anywhere near as much to the party as exchange/outlook? If you have one I would really, really, love to try it out! But I have not found one. Certainly Cyrus is not it. And for cost I can put an exchange system in for a 70 person office with all the clients and servers licensed from scratch with AD and everything, including the server and my time to set it up for less then $1500. In addition each users outlook costs only $40 and that also includes all the other MS bundled stuff we have not talked about (Share point, etc.). And while there are far better solutions for nearly all of it (especially MS SQL Server) Tell me now. Can you purchase a server, provide a integrated collaborative PIM suite in a single interface providing mail, contacts, basic CRM, takes, notes, and journal com tracking for the same price? If so I really would like to see it because I have bee hunting for this for almost 10 years! I hold fast that Exchange is one of very, very few MS products that has a very high ROI. And, have you every had to integrate a BES with something other then Exchange? Or are you some one who has never managed more then a handful of mobile devices. Now if you're a single person or a company of 5 it is stupid to implement exchange. Use Google. If you're a fleet of sales people who never talk to each other and have an independent sales management application, then again, Exchange is not your option, but for most small campus based businesses that employ a group of average people who need to communicate easily with their teams exchange is your answer. In the real world your business needs and the bottom line dictate the solution, not your personal feelings. And time and time again, for medium business after medium business, Exchange has provided. If you really want we can conger up an average small company prototype and each deliver a robust communications plan. But I think your average CFP will pick the exchange plan every time. And yes one of my three home computers is MS, and yes I run outlook on it (Evolution and thunderbird on the other two) But Outlook is my primary PIM. I find on lists like this I have the fringe voice of pay/proprietary software, just like in the business world I am the fringe voice of free and open source. So, I get flamed from both sides. -Original Message- From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Craig White Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:24 AM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: RE: OT:Exchange good? (Was:Re: new hotness?) On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 09:45 -0700, Bryan O'Neal wrote: I disagree... Mostly. - Tough to backup Like any database it needs to be shut down for standard file backups to work properly. This can be done via a simple script and is not a real issue. However the use of back up programs like BackupExec make it a breeze to back up and
