Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
It would also be nice not to accidentally end up banning newbies because their questions seemed trollish, or having a totalitarian rule (as you said before) that prevents any unconventional discussion. I personally would prefer the lax alternative. None of that rules out at least having ops on the channel, even lax ones. I think this is the single biggest crying session I've ever seen on the ML. How politic of you to be more polite about it on the mailing list. You also seem to have left out the whole part about agreeing with me, and just not my reasoning. To be honest, I regret posting this to the mailing list-- not because I think there shouldn't be ops on #pygame, but because it seems like more trouble than it's worth, on my part. On 2/21/08, Nick Moffitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: René Dudfield: never fear... STORM TROOPER SNAKEY IS WATCHING YOU!!! I am filled with hissing light! -- You are not entitled to your opinions. Nick Moffitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
I find it interesting that it's the people who don't actually make use of the #pygame channel who are so eager to evict those who do. I'll tell you folks now: piman is not an easy guy to get along with, but he does genuinely discuss pygame. We've taken to dealing with his attitude by being more playfully absurd around him, and that seems to work well enough. What *doesn't* happen is people coming in to discuss pygame, and some sort of resident cabal of troublemakers chasing them away with, oh, I dunno, comments about their mothers or something. That isn't what's happening. Instead what sparked this mess off was the following exchange: *** TV-LAND FLASHBACK RIPPLE EFFECT *** Pymike entered during a long string of people entering and asking about their inability to reach http://pygame.org, and feeling that he wasn't being heard decided to scream. pymike DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT'S UP WITH PYGAME.ORG? Spads Not a soul. _raz_ do not shout, stupid Spads the mysteries of pygame.org are unknowable Despite being irritated, _raz_ ventured forth to be helpful. _raz_ the seul.org servers are down, so nothing's up with pygame.org _raz_ damnit At this point, pymike explained his overwhelming sense of entitlement. pymike When I get on an irc channel for pygame I like to get questions answered pymike sheesh Spads pymike: and when I enter a room full of hot ladies, I like to get sexed up by all of them at once Spads pymike: but more often than not they're too busy with one another to notice me * Spads cries in the corner Enter pymike's opinions on the nature of the official channel for pygame. pymike Is this not the official irc channel for pygame? Spads what sort of criteria for official are you hoping for? _raz_ I did not sign a fucking contract to answer your questions, neither did anyone else Spads if you mean Do the board of directors for the Pygame corporation found this channel to answer questions from the lay public in order to increase shareholder value then no _raz_ kisses to you Spads :) And now pymake pleads that he isn't really asking for much, really, and we should not consider it a burden to drop everything and service him. pymike I just came in and asked a simple question Spads if you mean Is there an officer from the People's Sixth International Pygame here to ensure strict compliance to party dogma then yes pymike I thought I could get an answer without getting a lot of bull pymike I'll just email phil hassey or something Exeunt, chased by deserved ridicule. -!- pymike [EMAIL PROTECTED] has left #pygame [] _raz_ and impatiently requested an answer instead of waiting Spads sweet Spads we need fewer of his kind in here Spads let's do that more often _raz_ boy, there I'm telling him, seul.org's down and he even ignores the asnwer _raz_ what the fuck... Spads that's okay Spads phil hassey will write him a carefully-caligraphed letter on perfumed letter stock explaining the status of the pygame.org web site and its reasons for being Spads all stamped in wax and sealed with a kiss Spads phil hassey lipstick marks next to the signature Spads all dotting all the 'i's and 'j's with hearts... Then in came yet another user asking the same question as everybody else, so _raz_ decided to take more definite action. -!- surgy [EMAIL PROTECTED] has joined #pygame -!- surgy is surgy surgy is the website down -!- _raz_ changed the topic of #pygame to: Don't ask to ask, just ask | yes, pygame.org's down due to some problems of the hoster Once this particular storm passed, pymike returned to let us know, and _raz_ took care of things. -!- pymike [EMAIL PROTECTED] has joined #pygame -!- pymike is New Now Know How pymike pygame.org is back -!- _raz_ changed the topic of #pygame to: Don't ask to ask, just ask And that there is about all there is to this ridiculous tale. When you're rude, expect to be met with rudeness. That's all there is to learn from this pointless episode, and we can all stop pontificating about how we need to restrict other people's behavior as some sort of draconian PR policy. -- Information gladly given, but safety requires Nick Moffitt avoiding unnecessary conversation. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
never fear... STORM TROOPER SNAKEY IS WATCHING YOU!!! http://www.pygame.org/
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
Nick Moffitt wrote: I find it interesting that it's the people who don't actually make use of the #pygame channel who are so eager to evict those who do. I'll tell you folks now: piman is not an easy guy to get along with, but he does genuinely discuss pygame. We've taken to dealing with his attitude by being more playfully absurd around him, and that seems to work well enough. What *doesn't* happen is people coming in to discuss pygame, and some sort of resident cabal of troublemakers chasing them away with, oh, I dunno, comments about their mothers or something. That isn't what's happening. Instead what sparked this mess off was the following exchange: Thanks for taking the time to explain the incident that caused this discussion. -Luke
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
I think this is the single biggest crying session I've ever seen on the ML. On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Luke Paireepinart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nick Moffitt wrote: I find it interesting that it's the people who don't actually make use of the #pygame channel who are so eager to evict those who do. I'll tell you folks now: piman is not an easy guy to get along with, but he does genuinely discuss pygame. We've taken to dealing with his attitude by being more playfully absurd around him, and that seems to work well enough. What *doesn't* happen is people coming in to discuss pygame, and some sort of resident cabal of troublemakers chasing them away with, oh, I dunno, comments about their mothers or something. That isn't what's happening. Instead what sparked this mess off was the following exchange: Thanks for taking the time to explain the incident that caused this discussion. -Luke
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
Jotham wrote: I think this is the single biggest crying session I've ever seen on the ML. Well at least we don't have a 90-reply thread called designing poop like the Tutor mailing list. -Luke
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
René Dudfield: never fear... STORM TROOPER SNAKEY IS WATCHING YOU!!! I am filled with hissing light! -- You are not entitled to your opinions. Nick Moffitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
So that's it, huh? Pygame refuses to take responsibility for its own channel? I suppose what I can do is talk to the user jeremyb about ##pygame. With luck, I could ask the FreeNode staff to shut down #pygame and redirect to ##pygame, like they did with #physics and ##physics when #physics got deregistered. Getting #pygame back to the Pygame project was my first option, but, well, no luck. On 2/19/08, Marcus von Appen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On, Tue Feb 19, 2008, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: Hey guys, the channel #pygame on irc.freenode.net is deregistered, and it'd be nice if somebody from the pygame project could take it over. ATM it's inhabited by trolls and so on that don't really give a good impression of Pygame at all (What I'm saying is, you're an idiot., All 14 year olds have assburgers, etc.). It'd just be very nice if somebody could take back the channel and kick the trolls. Just put them on your /ignore list, if you do not like a free discussion style :-). Regards Marcus
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
I actually have to agree with Devin Jeanpierre. Pygame is a fantastic module and a fantastic project. If it is ever to suceed, become widely used, or be further recognised by anyone, it needs to look good when it is presented. Pygame needs to be represented as it really is. Let's not forget that.
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
I'm putting in my vote with Devin and Ian as well... not that this is a democracy, but hey, still good to show my support! 8-) Ian Mallett wrote: I actually have to agree with Devin Jeanpierre. Pygame is a fantastic module and a fantastic project. If it is ever to suceed, become widely used, or be further recognised by anyone, it needs to look good when it is presented. Pygame needs to be represented as it really is. Let's not forget that.
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
Phil should run it :P.. On Feb 19, 2008 1:47 PM, Wyatt Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm putting in my vote with Devin and Ian as well... not that this is a democracy, but hey, still good to show my support! 8-) Ian Mallett wrote: I actually have to agree with Devin Jeanpierre. Pygame is a fantastic module and a fantastic project. If it is ever to suceed, become widely used, or be further recognised by anyone, it needs to look good when it is presented. Pygame needs to be represented as it really is. Let's not forget that. -- Join cleanscript.com Come here for professional PHP coding.
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
Everyone here agrees that Pygame is a good program, correct? If so, then it must look the part. I will not determine fact from Devin's original comment, but I think lying is more or less cut by Occam's Razor. All I think we meant is that Pygame needs to appear as it really is. I stand by my original position. We need to make sure Pygame looks the way it should. Associating anything like what Devin said is happening with Pygame associates it with us. It merits investigation. Ian
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
On, Tue Feb 19, 2008, Ian Mallett wrote: Everyone here agrees that Pygame is a good program, correct? If so, then it must look the part. I will not determine fact from Devin's original comment, but I think lying is more or less cut by Occam's Razor. As I wrote, I did not imply this. I just showed, that some simply citations do not make up a fact. All I think we meant is that Pygame needs to appear as it really is. I stand How is pygame really? by my original position. We need to make sure Pygame looks the way it should. Associating anything like what Devin said is happening with Pygame associates it with us. Then people have not understood IRC. Shall we go around on any IRC net and watch for possible pygame channels, in which some people might be a bit rude? Censorship for anyone who does not match the brand? Do not take anything to serious, neither in this mail nor in IRC. Regards Marcus pgp4syan9kKxi.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
How dare you to say one of the pygame members then should take resposibility for it? It was founded by Pygame. That is why it is a # (official) channel, not a ## channel. Like I said, it was deregistered-- not never registered in the first place. On 2/19/08, Marcus von Appen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On, Tue Feb 19, 2008, Ian Mallett wrote: Everyone here agrees that Pygame is a good program, correct? If so, then it must look the part. I will not determine fact from Devin's original comment, but I think lying is more or less cut by Occam's Razor. As I wrote, I did not imply this. I just showed, that some simply citations do not make up a fact. All I think we meant is that Pygame needs to appear as it really is. I stand How is pygame really? by my original position. We need to make sure Pygame looks the way it should. Associating anything like what Devin said is happening with Pygame associates it with us. Then people have not understood IRC. Shall we go around on any IRC net and watch for possible pygame channels, in which some people might be a bit rude? Censorship for anyone who does not match the brand? Do not take anything to serious, neither in this mail nor in IRC. Regards Marcus
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
If you say IRC is like that. Myself, well, #pygame is the only channel as bad as this that I visit. My only experience with crude IRC members is with spammers and #pygame. But, hey, it's IRC. In any case, if #pygame can get off because it's IRC, fine. It's Pygame's decision to moderate it, not mine or anybody else's. I'd much rather it be a proper channel, something more professional like the other channels I visit. Maybe it's just my selection of channels, but I've never had the troubles you say are rampant on IRC. I expected #pygame to be like the rest-- I guess you'd call that my first taste of 'the real IRC'? On 2/19/08, Noah Kantrowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lets can the euphemism please. You think some of the #pygame regulars (most often piman) are offensive and crude. You are 100% correct. Different forms of communication have different tones and cultures. This mailing list, for example, is generally quite civil. IRC is a _much_ more casual environment. If you dislike this environment, don't use it. #pygame is not the public face of Pygame, and I don't think anyone wants it to be. Speaking generally, you will also find that people on IRC will warm up to you very fast once you demonstrate that you aren't some random kid off the street who thinks he can make The Next Great Game (tm). The internet is a dangerous place, tread lightly. --Noah
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
Lets can the euphemism please. You think some of the #pygame regulars (most often piman) are offensive and crude. You are 100% correct. Different forms of communication have different tones and cultures. This mailing list, for example, is generally quite civil. IRC is a _much_ more casual environment. If you dislike this environment, don't use it. #pygame is not the public face of Pygame, and I don't think anyone wants it to be. Speaking generally, you will also find that people on IRC will warm up to you very fast once you demonstrate that you aren't some random kid off the street who thinks he can make The Next Great Game (tm). The internet is a dangerous place, tread lightly. --Noah signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
On, Tue Feb 19, 2008, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: How dare you to say one of the pygame members then should take resposibility for it? It was founded by Pygame. That is why it is a # (official) channel, not a ## channel. Like I said, it was deregistered-- not never registered in the first place. So if something is dropped or in this case deregistered, the original initiator still has to take care of it until his death or someone else takes the burden, is what you say? I can btw. register the channel #frugulator for something, drop it afterwards and the project members of frugulator will be responsible afterwards according to your logic ;-). Regards Marcus pgpKBL4ftKJUR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
hey, peace love and happiness :) I've always found ops to be more annoying... and when I was hanging out on #pygame we never seemed to need it. Just ignore them, and hopefully they'll go away. Anyway, pygame is sending the storm troopers in. Actual storm troopers. Storm troopers that are actually pythons inside (much tougher than normal storm troopers). So everyone better play nice, or we'll ask everyone to play nice again. So there. But seriously, ACTUAL STORM TROOPERS WITH PYTHONS INSIDE. So don't worry, all will be well soon. cu, On Feb 20, 2008 9:43 AM, Devin Jeanpierre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if something is dropped or in this case deregistered, the original initiator still has to take care of it until his death or someone else takes the burden, is what you say? Or until it is moved to an unofficial (##) channel. As long as it is an official channel, yes, I think it should be maintained by the members of the project that the channel is officially about. There is also, like I said before, the option of creating and moving to an unofficial channel, ##pygame. Note I say it 'should'. I can't force you or anybody else to do this, but pygame is the only group that can take over the channel, which is why I am asking. I'd much rather have ops on #pygame than do something silly like move to ##pygame. It's just IRC, after all, it shouldn't be so serious. On 2/19/08, Marcus von Appen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On, Tue Feb 19, 2008, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: How dare you to say one of the pygame members then should take resposibility for it? It was founded by Pygame. That is why it is a # (official) channel, not a ## channel. Like I said, it was deregistered-- not never registered in the first place. So if something is dropped or in this case deregistered, the original initiator still has to take care of it until his death or someone else takes the burden, is what you say? I can btw. register the channel #frugulator for something, drop it afterwards and the project members of frugulator will be responsible afterwards according to your logic ;-). Regards Marcus
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
Ah, well then, people will get the impression that *every *Pygame user is like that. Obviously untrue.
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
If people see one side, they will think that Pygame is stupid is a fact. That's not a fact. It's opinion, which is up for debate. Er, I don't want to give you the wrong impression-- nobody's bashing pygame, they're just... Well, they're insulting, trollish, etc. to users, not to pygame. On 2/19/08, Ian Mallett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 19, 2008 12:52 PM, Marcus von Appen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How is pygame really? A moot point, really, but: -I think Pygame is a fantastic tool for creating games and programs. -Pygame is optimised for the casual user who doesn't need nor want the complexity and overkill provided by OpenGL. -Pygame is a nice way to create things quickly and efficiently. -I like it! :-) Oh, and censoring that which disagrees with us *is* rather totalitarian. But I think that the discussion should be two sided. If people see Pygame as a program everyone hates, then no one will want to use it, let alone try it. Also, when there is opinion, there are always two sides. When there is fact, then it is one sided. If people see one side, they will think that Pygame is stupid is a *fact.* That's not a fact. It's opinion, which is up for debate.
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
On Feb 19, 2008 5:41 PM, Joey Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not all pygame users were like... piman ...for instance. I believe that's the same thing as: people will get the impression that every Pygame user is like that.
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
The short amount of time I have been on #pygame has been rather disappointing. A lot of trolling and bashing of other users. Ah, well then, people will get the impression that every Pygame user is like that. Obviously untrue. No, I'm afraid not obviously. I at least had to keep reminding myself that not all pygame users were like... piman ...for instance. Some of you may feel like this isn't that big of deal - but it does leave a negative impressions for spectators and especially so for those being bashed. It may be IRC but #pygame is the first I've been to where trolls are permitted. ~Joey On 2/19/08, Ian Mallett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, well then, people will get the impression that *every *Pygame user is like that. Obviously untrue.
Re: [pygame] #pygame on irc.freenode.net
On, Tue Feb 19, 2008, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: Hey guys, the channel #pygame on irc.freenode.net is deregistered, and it'd be nice if somebody from the pygame project could take it over. ATM it's inhabited by trolls and so on that don't really give a good impression of Pygame at all (What I'm saying is, you're an idiot., All 14 year olds have assburgers, etc.). It'd just be very nice if somebody could take back the channel and kick the trolls. Just put them on your /ignore list, if you do not like a free discussion style :-). Regards Marcus pgptmvEWkWUJd.pgp Description: PGP signature
