Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Benji York wrote: Alexander Schremmer wrote: In fact, PHP does it like php.net/functionname which is even shorter, i.e. they fallback to the documentation if that path does not exist otherwise. Like many things PHP, that seems a bit too magical for my tastes. Not only does it fall back to documentation, it falls back to a search for documentation if there isn't a function of that name. It's a convenient feature, I'm sure people would use it if it was there... even if it was something like http://python.org/doc/name -bob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Bob Ippolito wrote: On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Benji York wrote: Alexander Schremmer wrote: In fact, PHP does it like php.net/functionname which is even shorter, i.e. they fallback to the documentation if that path does not exist otherwise. Like many things PHP, that seems a bit too magical for my tastes. Not only does it fall back to documentation, it falls back to a search for documentation if there isn't a function of that name. It's a convenient feature, I'm sure people would use it if it was there... even if it was something like http://python.org/doc/name Yes. Either that or docs.python.org/... would be nice. (alongside with the custom markers I proposed one time so that there can be speaking URLs like docs.python.org/mutable-default-arguments ) Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 21:13:14 +0100, Georg Brandl wrote: If something like Fredrik's new doc system is adopted, it would be extremely convenient to refer someone to just docs.python.org/os.path.join In fact, PHP does it like php.net/functionname which is even shorter, i.e. they fallback to the documentation if that path does not exist otherwise. Kind regards, Alexander ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Alexander Schremmer wrote: In fact, PHP does it like php.net/functionname which is even shorter, i.e. they fallback to the documentation if that path does not exist otherwise. Like many things PHP, that seems a bit too magical for my tastes. -- Benji York ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Jeremy Hylton wrote: I don't think this message is on-topic for python-dev. There are lots of great places to discuss the design of the python web site, but the list for developers doesn't seem like a good place for it. Do we need a different list for people to gripe^H^H^H^H^H discuss the web site? [...] Such as http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign ? -- Gerhard ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Guido van Rossum wrote: (Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* going to help PageRank of the new page.) Hi Guido, Could you expand on why 301 redirects won't help with the transfer of page rank (if you're allowed)? We've done exactly this on many sites and the pagerank (or more relevantly the search rankings on specific terms) has transferred almost overnight. The bigger pagerank updates (both algorithm changes and overhauls in approach) seem to only happen every few months and these also seem to take notice of 301 redirects (they generally clear up any supplemental results). The addition of the docs.python.org was also intended (I thought) to be used in the google customised search (the google page you go to when you search from python.org). I'm not sure if that go lost in implementation but the idea was that the google box would have a radio button for docs.python.org. I agree that docs.python.org should only be the current documentation however what about the large amount of people who use 2.3 as standard? perhaps the docs23.python.org makes sense. In terms of pagerank for the different versions of the docs, would it make sense to 'hide' the older versions of the docs with a noindex so that general google searches will only return the current docs. aside Google seems to have a policy of ranking 'long standing' links with a higher pagerank weighting, hence older versions of python docs ranking higher). Hence keeping a single 'current' set of docs and having all inbound links pointing to them (e.g. docs.python.org) will gradually build up the search ranking./aside +1 on docs.python.org only containing current (with the caveat that there be an equivalent for users of specific versions, e.g. 2.3 users) Tim Parkin p.s. All my knowledge of how google work is gained through personal research so the terminology, techniques and results may be completely wrong (and also may vary from time to time) - however they do reflect direct experience. p.p.s regarding 'site:', 'allinurl:' and other google modifiers; It would seem a good idea to create a single page that helped site users make such searches without having to learn how the modifiers work. It maybe should be noted that you can also add a 'temporary redirects' (302's) which is taken by google to mean leave the original search results in place. This has also worked for us (old urls remain the same as far as google is concerned). ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
On 2/15/06, Tim Parkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guido van Rossum wrote: (Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* going to help PageRank of the new page.) Could you expand on why 301 redirects won't help with the transfer of page rank (if you're allowed)? We've done exactly this on many sites and the pagerank (or more relevantly the search rankings on specific terms) has transferred almost overnight. The bigger pagerank updates (both algorithm changes and overhauls in approach) seem to only happen every few months and these also seem to take notice of 301 redirects (they generally clear up any supplemental results). OK, perhaps I stand corrected. I don't actually know that much about PageRank! I still don't like docs.python.org, and adding more like it seems a mistake; but it's possible that this is because of a poor execution of the idea (there's no search docs button near the search button on the old python.org). -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Guido van Rossum wrote: On 2/15/06, Tim Parkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guido van Rossum wrote: I have this worry too in the context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* going to help PageRank of the new page.) Could you expand on why 301 redirects won't help with the transfer of page rank (if you're allowed)? We've done exactly this on many sites and the pagerank (or more relevantly the search rankings on specific terms) has transferred almost overnight. The bigger pagerank updates (both algorithm changes and overhauls in approach) seem to only happen every few months and these also seem to take notice of 301 redirects (they generally clear up any supplemental results). OK, perhaps I stand corrected. I don't actually know that much about PageRank! No problem, I don't think that many people do and the general consensus seems to be that, although the calculations behind pagerank may be one of the core parts of the google algorithm, there are so many additional algorithms* that affect searches on a case by case and day by day basis that the value from is almost meaningless (apart from possibly 0-2 may be a problem 3-5 is normal, 6-9 is generally good and 10 I've not seen) * (for instance, patents on working out the value of inbound links based on there age, how many other inbound links appeared around the same time, the status of the originating site as an 'authority' site, the text contained in the inbound link and title attributes, etc and the general relation between the inbound links and the 'theme' of the target site ['theme' == the distribution of important keywords across the site]) I still don't like docs.python.org, and adding more like it seems a mistake; but it's possible that this is because of a poor execution of the idea (there's no search docs button near the search button on the old python.org). I'll try and make a more functional/usable google search page on the new site. Tim Parkin p.s. I hope you didn't think I was digging for 'insider info'.. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
As I said in an earlier message, there's no need to have a separate domain to restrict queries to just the doc/current part of python.org. Just type site:python.org/doc/current your query here If there isn't any other rationale, maybe we can redirects docs.python.org back to www.python.org? Jeremy On 2/15/06, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/15/06, Tim Parkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guido van Rossum wrote: (Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* going to help PageRank of the new page.) Could you expand on why 301 redirects won't help with the transfer of page rank (if you're allowed)? We've done exactly this on many sites and the pagerank (or more relevantly the search rankings on specific terms) has transferred almost overnight. The bigger pagerank updates (both algorithm changes and overhauls in approach) seem to only happen every few months and these also seem to take notice of 301 redirects (they generally clear up any supplemental results). OK, perhaps I stand corrected. I don't actually know that much about PageRank! I still don't like docs.python.org, and adding more like it seems a mistake; but it's possible that this is because of a poor execution of the idea (there's no search docs button near the search button on the old python.org). -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/jeremy%40alum.mit.edu ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Jeremy Hylton wrote: As I said in an earlier message, there's no need to have a separate domain to restrict queries to just the doc/current part of python.org. Just type site:python.org/doc/current your query here If there isn't any other rationale, maybe we can redirects docs.python.org back to www.python.org? If something like Fredrik's new doc system is adopted, it would be extremely convenient to refer someone to just docs.python.org/os.path.join without looking up how the page is actually named. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Georg Brandl wrote: If something like Fredrik's new doc system is adopted, it would be extremely convenient to refer someone to just docs.python.org/os.path.join without looking up how the page is actually named. you could of course reserve a toplevel directory for that purpose; e.g. http://python.org/lib/os.path.join or perhaps http://python.org/tag/os.path.join http://python.org/tag/print etc. /F ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Georg Brandl wrote: If something like Fredrik's new doc system is adopted don't hold your breath, by the way. it's clear that the current PSF-sponsored site overhaul won't lead to anything remotely close to a best-of-breed python- powered site, and I'm beginning to think that I should spend my time on other stuff. I find it a bit sad that we'll end up with a butt-ugly static and boring python.org site when we have so much talent in the python universe, but I guess that's in- evitable at this stage in Python's evolution. /F ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: If something like Fredrik's new doc system is adopted don't hold your breath, by the way. it's clear that the current PSF-sponsored site overhaul won't lead to anything remotely close to a best-of-breed python- powered site, and I'm beginning to think that I should spend my time on other stuff. I find it a bit sad that we'll end up with a butt-ugly static and boring python.org site when we have so much talent in the python universe, but I guess that's in- evitable at this stage in Python's evolution. /F Some very large sites - and some may say some very interesting, very large sites - are delivered as static html (for some time the two biggest sites in the uk were both delivered as static html, one of which was bbc.co.uk and the other was sportinglife.com for which I used to be the main web developer. As far as I know the bbc and sporting life still both use static html for a large portion of their content). Regarding the python site, it was a concious decision to deliver the pages as static html. This was for many reasons, of which a prominent one (but by no means the only major one) was mirroring. One of the advantages of a semantically structured website that uses css for layout and style is that, as far as design goes, you are welcome to re-style the html using css; we can also offer it as an alternate stylesheet (just as I've added a 'large font' style and a 'default font settings' style). However, design is a subjective thing - I've spent quite a bit of time reacting to the majority of constructive feedback (probably far too much time when I should have been getting content migrated) but obviously it won't please everyone :-) As for cutting edge, it's using twisted, restructured text, nevow, clean urls, xhtml, semantic markup, css2, interfaces, adaption, eggs, the path module, moinmoin, yaml (to avoid xml), etc - just because it's generating all of the html up front rather than at runtime doesn't mean that it's not best-of-breed (although I'm not sure what best-of-breed is; I'm presuming it's some sort of accolade for excellence in python programming; something I don't think I would be qualified to judge, never mind receive). However, back to the Goerg's comment, we could use mod_write to map: /lib/sets to: /doc/lib/module-sets.html with rewriteRule ^/lib/(.*)$ /doc/lib/module-$1.html [L,R=301] (not tested) Whether that is a good idea or not is another matter. Tim Parkin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
I don't think this message is on-topic for python-dev. There are lots of great places to discuss the design of the python web site, but the list for developers doesn't seem like a good place for it. Do we need a different list for people to gripe^H^H^H^H^H discuss the web site? Jeremy On 2/15/06, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Parkin wrote: As for cutting edge, it's using twisted, restructured text, nevow, clean urls, xhtml, semantic markup, css2, interfaces, adaption, eggs, the path module, moinmoin, yaml (to avoid xml), that's not cutting edge, that's buzzword bingo. something I don't think I would be qualified to judge,never mind receive). no, you're not qualified. yet, someone gave you total control over the future of python.org, and there's no way to make you give it up, despite the fact that you're over a year late and the stuff you've delivered this far is massively underwhelming. that's the problem. /F ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/jeremy%40alum.mit.edu ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
On 2/13/06, Fred L. Drake, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 13 February 2006 10:03, Georg Brandl wrote: The above docs are from August 2005 while docs.python.org/dev is current. Shouldn't the old docs be removed? I'm afraid I've generally been too busy to chime in much on this topic, but I've spent a bit of time thinking about it, and would like to keep on top of the issue still. Fred, While you are here, are you planning to do the doc releases for 2.5? You are tentatively listed in PEP 356. (Technically it says TBD with a ? next to your name.) The automatically-maintained version of the development docs is certainly preferrable to the manually-maintained-by-me version, and I've updated the link from www.python.org/doc/ to refer to that version for now. However, I do have some concerns about how this is all structured still. I think this was the quick hack I did. I hope there are many concerns. :-) For example, if the doc build fails, ... Hmmm, this probably isn't a problem. The doc won't be updated, but will still be the last good version. So if I send mail when the doc doesn't build, then it might not be so bad. Will have to test this. I still need to switch over the failure mails to go to python-checkins. There are too many right now though. Unless people don't mind getting several messages about refleaks every day? Anyone? What I would also like to see is to have an automatically-updated version for each of the maintainer versions of Python, as well as the development trunk. That would mean two versions at this point (2.4.x, 2.5.x); only one of those is currently handled automatically. That shouldn't be a problem. See http://docs.python.org/dev/2.4/ n ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Shouldn't docs.python.org be removed? It seems to add mroe confusion than anything, especially since most links on python.org continue to point to python.org/doc/. On 2/13/06, Georg Brandl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The above docs are from August 2005 while docs.python.org/dev is current. Shouldn't the old docs be removed? (Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* going to help PageRank of the new page.) -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
On Monday 13 February 2006 10:03, Georg Brandl wrote: The above docs are from August 2005 while docs.python.org/dev is current. Shouldn't the old docs be removed? I'm afraid I've generally been too busy to chime in much on this topic, but I've spent a bit of time thinking about it, and would like to keep on top of the issue still. The automatically-maintained version of the development docs is certainly preferrable to the manually-maintained-by-me version, and I've updated the link from www.python.org/doc/ to refer to that version for now. However, I do have some concerns about how this is all structured still. One of the goals of docs.python.org was to be able to do a Google site-search and only see the current version. Having multiple versions on that site is contrary to that purpose. I'd like to see the development version(s) move back to being in the www.python.org/dev/doc/ hierarchy. What I would also like to see is to have an automatically-updated version for each of the maintainer versions of Python, as well as the development trunk. That would mean two versions at this point (2.4.x, 2.5.x); only one of those is currently handled automatically. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake at acm.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 03:52:44PM -0500, Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: What I would also like to see is to have an automatically-updated version for each of the maintainer versions of Python, as well as the development trunk. That would mean two versions at this point (2.4.x, 2.5.x); only one of those is currently handled automatically. If Thomas could set up a wildcard DNS of some sort, would it be a good idea to have lots of hostnames, e.g. docs-24.python.org, docs-25.python.org, etc.? We could probably make it work in Apache with mod_rewrite so that we aren't endlessly tweaking the config file as new versions are released. --amk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Guido van Rossum wrote: Shouldn't docs.python.org be removed? It seems to add mroe confusion than anything, especially since most links on python.org continue to point to python.org/doc/. All the web says about 1200 links into the docs.python.org subdomain. (Different to the google link feature, which only shows links to a specific URL I believe.) http://www.alltheweb.com/search?cat=webcs=utf8q=link%3Adocs.python.orgrys=0itag=crv_sb_lang=pref It's where I link to as well. Be a shame to lose it. ;-) Michael Foord On 2/13/06, Georg Brandl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The above docs are from August 2005 while docs.python.org/dev is current. Shouldn't the old docs be removed? (Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* going to help PageRank of the new page.) -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/fuzzyman%40voidspace.org.uk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
On Monday 13 February 2006 15:40, Guido van Rossum wrote: Shouldn't docs.python.org be removed? It seems to add mroe confusion than anything, especially since most links on python.org continue to point to python.org/doc/. docs.python.org was created specifically to make searching the most recent stable version of the docs easier (using Google's site: modifier, no less). I don't know what the link count statistics say (other than what you mention), and don't know which gets hit more often, but I still think it's a reasonable approach. I've been switching links to point to docs.python.org whenever I find an older link that points to www.python.org/doc/current/; other parts of the doc/ area from the site didn't move, and perhaps that's a problem that should be addressed. (Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* going to help PageRank of the new page.) Maybe I'm just not getting why that's relevant. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake at acm.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote: docs.python.org was created specifically to make searching the most recent stable version of the docs easier (using Google's site: modifier, no less). I don't know what the link count statistics say (other than what you mention), and don't know which gets hit more often I've been looking into page stats for the AltPyDotOrgCms activity; from what I can tell, it's evenly distributed (~55% on www.python.org/doc, 45% on docs.python.org) /F ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
On 2/13/06, Fred L. Drake, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 13 February 2006 15:40, Guido van Rossum wrote: Shouldn't docs.python.org be removed? It seems to add mroe confusion than anything, especially since most links on python.org continue to point to python.org/doc/. docs.python.org was created specifically to make searching the most recent stable version of the docs easier (using Google's site: modifier, no less). I don't know what the link count statistics say (other than what you mention), and don't know which gets hit more often, but I still think it's a reasonable approach. Why not do a query like this? http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Apython.org/doc/current%20urllibhl=en Jeremy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
