Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
On 1/20/11 4:51 PM, Adam Morris wrote: I want one programming language that lets me solve my real problems. That to me, is what Python embodies. yup -- it is applicable to a VERY wide range of problems. But I'm still confused on some major points on what it offers. I use Xcode and Cocoa-Python, and IMO it works great. Is that using py2app under the covers? This is another reason not to install a non-system Python; it sometimes screws up apps built using Xcode and Python. I'm trying really hard to unpack this. I can't use XCode and the py-objc bridge with my installed python 2.7 setup? (Installed isn't quite the right word, I know.) Why not? I guess it's because something is hard-coded somewhere ... I don't particularly need XCode but I really want to understand this. You can certainly use pyObjC without XCode. I've never tried to do python development in XCode, from the little I've read here it never seemed to be well supported. Maybe someone here can tell you how to use XCode / pyObjC for app development. Note that Apple has added a couple proprietary bits to its python install, maybe XCode relies on those. I would love to hear more about what you can and can't do with XCode. Note that if XCode has a way to build a self-contained App, and it uses Apple's system python, you are going to either get something that won't work on older systems, or you are going to be using an older python. You can't re-distribute Apple's python. Also -- Apple has NEVER upgraded a python it delivered. Most of the bugs fixed between X.1 and X.5 versions of python are unlikely to bite you, but I had at least one that did -- when I found it, it had been fixed in the python.org release, but not in Apples -- and Apple has still not fixed it -- so I don't know what I'd have done if I'd be confined to Apple's python. Yes, I'm confined to Apple's OS - but at least they do update that! And Bill's right -- if you want to support other platforms, wxPython or pyQT is the way to go. (pyGTK is so non-native on the Mac I wouldn't consider it, and I don't think pyGUI is very mature yet) (the binaries for wxPython work with both the Apple and python.org builds -- 32 bit only for the moment) -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/ORR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Charles Hartman co...@conncoll.edu wrote: it would seem to be short-sighted for anyone interested in Python on the Mac not to support py2app as fully as possible. You calling me short-sighted, Charles? That's OK -- it's true, you know; I've been wearing thick glasses since I was a kid :-). But I don't know that it has much to do with py2app. I think py2app is great, and I believe I even used it, once -- wanted to make a Preference Pane with Python, and couldn't figure out how to do it otherwise. But in general I've not needed it -- I just use Xcode and the system Python, and there's no need to bundle another Python with that approach. I should probably figure out how to use py2app with that approach, though; it might be more bullet-proof. Bill ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Bill Janssen jans...@parc.com wrote: Charles Hartman co...@conncoll.edu wrote: it would seem to be short-sighted for anyone interested in Python on the Mac not to support py2app as fully as possible. You calling me short-sighted, Charles? That's OK -- it's true, you know; I've been wearing thick glasses since I was a kid :-). But I don't know that it has much to do with py2app. Oh, you should see my glasses. Are you telling me py2app didn't cause this??? I think py2app is great, and I believe I even used it, once -- wanted to make a Preference Pane with Python, and couldn't figure out how to do it otherwise. But in general I've not needed it -- I just use Xcode and the system Python, and there's no need to bundle another Python with that approach. I should probably figure out how to use py2app with that approach, though; it might be more bullet-proof. Bill My point was just that a lot of us can't use Python the way or you, or aren't willing or likely to. We're just application programmers, not systems programmers. And we also can't afford to code only for Mac. I write educational programs, and a lot of my (benighted) students persist in using Windows. And then, my more argumentative point was that Python needs us: we're the ones who bring the wider attention and the critical mass. Maybe I don't understand how the support of programming languages works, but I know there are beautiful languages out there orbiting lonely stars because people admired them only from afar. I'd be interested to know, if anyone knows: why DID Apple start including Python? Charles ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
On 1/19/11 9:11 PM, Charles Hartman wrote: Do I need/want to use py2app to distribute my app(s)? Never happens. But this is where Bill J's use-case departs drastically from those of many users, perhaps most, and certainly the majority of those who need any help. I'm not sure about majority -- who knows, really? Despite what's sometimes implied here, py2app is not a frill. I agree. It's a really key tool. One of the great things about Python is that it is suitable for: Quickie command line scripting Gluing larger systems together Full on application development: - web apps - command line apps - GUI apps. And on the Mac, you can: - build native apps with PyObjC - build cross-platform GUIs with wx or QT - build Unix-y apps with pyGTK - drive other apps with AppScript Essentially ANY kind of development short of device drivers. Is there ANY other language you can do all that with? (Ruby, maybe?) So while py2app may not be essential to the Python community on Mac, it IS essential to a fair fraction of that community, and I think that fact that you can do all these kinds of development with the same tool strengthens its position for the other purposes as well. and certainly the majority of those who need any help. I think that's key -- Bill's approach is fine one for some users, but not what Id recommend to newbies that aren't sure how to set a PATH. The fact that there are a lot of ways to install Python on the Mac has really been a pain for the community to support (and pretty ironic, considering how the Mac platform usually is!). I'm not sure there is much that can be done about it, but one thing we have mostly done is try to use this list to declare the python.org builds as the official ones and try to get third party projects to build binaries for them If you need help with macports, ask on a macports list, etc. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/ORR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Christopher Barker chris.bar...@noaa.govwrote: On 1/19/11 9:11 PM, Charles Hartman wrote: Do I need/want to use py2app to distribute my app(s)? Never happens. But this is where Bill J's use-case departs drastically from those of many users, perhaps most, and certainly the majority of those who need any help. I'm not sure about majority -- who knows, really? If I want to share my work with other users, and that work is not itself a library, then as I see it I have two options: distribute either as a collection of Python modules and any resource files, or as a packaged app. The former is just about strictly worse than the latter from a usability standpoint: the user has to install Python and any libraries I depend on themselves, and then they have to invoke Python on my main module to use my code (or else I have to use a shebang line that assumes they've installed Python in a particular place), which in turn may well require using the command line. In short, if you are coding for other people who are not themselves programmers and who use OSX, then you want py2app. -Chris ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Christopher Barker chris.bar...@noaa.gov wrote: and certainly the majority of those who need any help. I think that's key -- Bill's approach is fine one for some users, but not what Id recommend to newbies that aren't sure how to set a PATH. Hmmm. My experience is that those are exactly the folks who get into trouble by using the python.org installer on their macs -- those who don't understand how PATH influences their usage experience. The fact that there are a lot of ways to install Python on the Mac has really been a pain for the community to support (and pretty ironic, considering how the Mac platform usually is!). I'm not sure there is much that can be done about it Yep. By the way, Python is more than just another good scripting language. I build large systems with it. I do (rarely) write Mac applications with Python. I use Xcode and Cocoa-Python, and IMO it works great. Is that using py2app under the covers? This is another reason not to install a non-system Python; it sometimes screws up apps built using Xcode and Python. Bill ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Chris Weisiger cweisi...@msg.ucsf.edu writes: In short, if you are coding for other people who are not themselves programmers and who use OSX, then you want py2app. I definitely agree with this. Py2app lets my self-contained Python apps conform to the platform norm that users are expecting. In that respect it's along the lines of py2exe (plus something like InnoSetup) on Windows letting me match those user's expectations with a single binary installer (exe or msi) that they can just run. For my Mac users, they want a DMG that contains the app to drag to Applications, or the mpkg to do the installation for them. So pretty much anything I'm going to supply them is going to use py2app first, then get packaged (optionally with PackageMaker) into a DMG through hdiutil. It also has the added benefit of having absolutely no dependence on their local environment, aside from core OSX system libraries. -- David ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
This python development convo has been by far the most informative so far. I'm coming at this from very much a hobbyist position. I'm a teacher and I want one programming language that lets me solve my real problems. I also want the same language to be able to do native Mac stuff too, if I ever have the need. I also want it to be a mature and thriving language, something, frankly, that would be noticed on my CV. And I want all of those things to be the same programming language because I don't have time to invest in learning how to actively use others. That to me, is what Python embodies. But I'm still confused on some major points on what it offers. By the way, Python is more than just another good scripting language. I build large systems with it. I do (rarely) write Mac applications with Python. I use Xcode and Cocoa-Python, and IMO it works great. Is that using py2app under the covers? This is another reason not to install a non-system Python; it sometimes screws up apps built using Xcode and Python. I'm trying really hard to unpack this. I can't use XCode and the py-objc bridge with my installed python 2.7 setup? (Installed isn't quite the right word, I know.) Why not? I guess it's because something is hard-coded somewhere ... I don't particularly need XCode but I really want to understand this. Can't tell you how much I had read this conversation back, about a year ago, when I first started learning Python. ... -Adam Morris Teacher, programmer, trying to combine the two @brainysmurf ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Adam Morris amor...@mistermorris.com wrote: By the way, Python is more than just another good scripting language. I build large systems with it. I do (rarely) write Mac applications with Python. I use Xcode and Cocoa-Python, and IMO it works great. Is that using py2app under the covers? This is another reason not to install a non-system Python; it sometimes screws up apps built using Xcode and Python. I'm trying really hard to unpack this. I tend to build command-line tools and services. But when I need to build something with a Mac UI I pull up Xcode and use the Cocoa-Python template. Works like a charm -- but I believe it depends on the system Python. By the way, if you need to do this, take a look at Hillegass' book, COCOA PROGRAMMING FOR MAC OS X. And read Will Larson's great series, starting with http://lethain.com/entry/2008/aug/22/an-epic-introduction-to-pyobjc-and-cocoa/ I can't use XCode and the py-objc bridge with my installed python 2.7 setup? (Installed isn't quite the right word, I know.) Don't know, because I always use the system Python for non-Python-dev coding. But I'm betting there are some dependencies in Xcode or the Xcode templates which require the system Python. Why not? I guess it's because something is hard-coded somewhere ... Sure. But anything hard-coded can be overridden. The sources are just sitting there... I don't particularly need XCode but I really want to understand this. Unless you're developing just for the Mac, I'd suggest using PyGUI or wxPython or PyGTK or some such, and build applications (small 'a') with that, instead of Cocoa. That experience will port out of the Mac to other Unices and Windows. Bill ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the people we're talking about who need to build Python programs as apps -- several of whom have responded here -- don't typically want to confine those apps to the world of Macs. Python is a great language in which to build cross-platform (LOTS of platforms) programs that will look native everywhere and run without any expertise on the part of end users. Since that makes an audience at least (at a guess) 20 times as big as the Mac-only audience, and (at a guess) 200 times as big as the command-line-and-system-tools audience -- and since the future of a language does depend on the size of its user base and not only on the savvy and enthusiasm of its most expert users -- it would seem to be short-sighted for anyone interested in Python on the Mac not to support py2app as fully as possible. Charles Hartman ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
On 17/01/2011 22:41, Tony Cappellini wrote: I do want 2.7 because it's a requirement at work. I want to have the same versions packages to avoid compatibility issues. I can put Python2.7 in a different directory and leave 2.6 there but I want the 2.7 installation to be the default one. For the purposes you actually mean, the python.org install does become the default one -- you can install it so that it comes earlier on your path (and I believe even this step is automated). In this case, all packages installed at the command line (or by binary installers) are in place for this build. I have not found an advantage to the fink or macports installs in the last few versions of Python versions. But it's crucial to leave the Apple-installed build exactly where it is, as it is used by the system. Andrew ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
NOTE: I'm not trying to persuade Bill of anything -- he's clearly found a method that works well for him, but for future googlers, I think a few clarifications are in order: On 1/18/11 4:29 PM, Bill Janssen wrote: Bill -- I'm really curious what issues you've had -- In general, there are issues around site-packages, paths, and other such things. I don't think you and I necessarily have much trouble with it, but I tend to help others with Python on Macs, and they seem to get into all kinds of trouble. The best one I've found is one group who had decided to upgrade their Leopard Python to 2.6. They'd installed the python.org Python, removed the symlink /usr/bin/python, and re-linked /usr/bin/python to the 2.6 version. They were happy, but plagued by odd problems with their machines that didn't (to them) seem to be Python-related. OK -- well, I'd say the solution to that is simple: DON'T DO THAT. We say time and time again that you should NEVER mess with Apple's python. So there problem was not that they installed another python, but that they broke Apple's. And there is no need -- they got too smart for their own good. The python.org installer changes the users PATH anyway. (granted, not for all users, but if you have a multi user system, you'll need to know how to manage PATHs anyway -- and /usr/local should be on everyone's PATH) Another problem I've run into more than once was that the user had installed different incompatible versions of an extension, and couldn't see why an application (with an embedded Python interpreter) was misbehaving -- it was getting the wrong version of the extension. Well, Even Apple supplies more than one version these days -- if you are embedding Python, you're going to need to know what you are doing. Not sure this is much use to anyone, but here's my decision tree, which has worked well for me over the past 7 years: 1) Do I do a bunch of unix-y command line stuff in general, and not want to develop OS-X GUIs? if yes -- use system Python. well, I meant a bunch of unix-y stuff in addition to Python -- stuff that Apple doesn't give you -- I use MacPorts for a bunch of command-line scientific tools, and it would make some sense to use macports python for those things, too (dependencies and all). But yes, if you are doing command line stuff and don't need anything Apples doesn't give you -- the Apple python is fine (unless you need a newer version) if no: Do I need/want a newer version than Apple provides? if yes: build non-framework version from source. I can hardly see this as easier/more reliable than installing the python.org build -- if you build from source and overwrite /usr/bin/python, you'll sure get the same problems! And anyone that can build from source understand PATHs, etc, enough not to screw things up! Do I need/want to use py2app to distribute my app(s)? Never happens. fair enough. Do I want to use pre-build binaries of common hard-to-build packages? if yes: cry about the general unfairness of the world, then build them from source instead to work with the system Python. Why cry when wxPython, PIL, SciPy, Matplotlib, ??? are available as nifty easy to use installers? There really aren't very many people for whom build it from source is the best option. Final NOTE: It's great that Bill takes this approach -- he's gotten things working and helped others a lot -- someone's got to build from source! Thanks, Bill! -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/ORR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011, Christopher Barker wrote: OK -- well, I'd say the solution to that is simple: DON'T DO THAT. We say time and time again that you should NEVER mess with Apple's python. Just to repeat for emphasis: NEVER mess with ANYONE'S system python. Doesn't matter whether it's Mac, Windows (yes, some Windows machines ship with a system Python for internal utilities), or Linux. If you don't like the system Python, your Python should be installed somewhere else, with your PATH (and/or aliases) adjusted to grab it. -- Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is given by pi*z*z*a ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Christopher Barker chris.bar...@noaa.gov wrote: Do I need/want to use py2app to distribute my app(s)? Never happens. fair enough. But this is where Bill J's use-case departs drastically from those of many users, perhaps most, and certainly the majority of those who need any help. If you think of Python as yet another handy scripting language, easier to use than Perl, etc., then you don't care about making apps -- and 60% of the questions that come to this site are irrelevant, because you're somebody who already lives inside Darwin/Unix/whatever. But there are a lot of people who do programming just in order to make user applications, not to tweak systems from half-inside. Many of them want to make cross-platform programs (which scripting geeks never do). Many of them -- me for a ready example -- know barely enough about bash to get things installed properly. More to the point: *all* of them, if they want to use Python (because they're sensible people) on the Mac (because they're sensible people) need to use py2app. Despite what's sometimes implied here, py2app is not a frill. From my point of view, it's essential to the Python community on Mac -- perhaps a minority point of view, but representing a minority that I suggest is crucial to the future of Python and the Mac. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Charles O. Hartman Poet in Residence Professor, Chair, Department of Literatures in English oak.conncoll.edu/cohar ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
On 1/17/11 9:17 AM, Bill Janssen wrote: And- I want to update the default python that came om my macbook pro to 2.7. Should I do install that from Python.org? My advice? I've never had good luck trying to update the default Python that comes with the Mac. Bill -- I'm really curious what issues you've had -- I haven't tried to use Apple's Python is many years (OS-X 10.2, I think) -- and it used to be painful to do so. Since then I've stuck with the Python.org versions, and had no problems (at least none that would have been solved by using Apple's Python). Here's my decision tree: 1) Do I do a bunch of unix-y command line stuff in general, and not want to develop OS-X GUIs? if yes -- use Macports if no: Do I need/want a newer version than Apple provides? if yes: python.org build Do I need/want to use py2app to distribute my app(s)? if yes: use the Python.org build Do I want to use pre-build binaries of common hard-to-build packages? if yes: use the python.org build. You can see that most roads lead to the python.org builds. That being said, to be clear: You don't upgrade Apple's python. Rather, you install a new one alongside it, and use that for your work. It is safe to build (and run) a non-Framework build of other versions of Python in various places on your Mac, but life gets complicated if you attempt to install it. Again, I've never had a complication from an installed python.org build. You sure would if you put it in the same place as Apple's but the installers don't do that. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/ORR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Christopher Barker chris.bar...@noaa.gov wrote: On 1/17/11 9:17 AM, Bill Janssen wrote: And- I want to update the default python that came om my macbook pro to 2.7. Should I do install that from Python.org? My advice? I've never had good luck trying to update the default Python that comes with the Mac. Bill -- I'm really curious what issues you've had -- I haven't tried to use Apple's Python is many years (OS-X 10.2, I think) -- and it used to be painful to do so. Since then I've stuck with the Python.org versions, and had no problems (at least none that would have been solved by using Apple's Python). In general, there are issues around site-packages, paths, and other such things. I don't think you and I necessarily have much trouble with it, but I tend to help others with Python on Macs, and they seem to get into all kinds of trouble. The best one I've found is one group who had decided to upgrade their Leopard Python to 2.6. They'd installed the python.org Python, removed the symlink /usr/bin/python, and re-linked /usr/bin/python to the 2.6 version. They were happy, but plagued by odd problems with their machines that didn't (to them) seem to be Python-related. Another problem I've run into more than once was that the user had installed different incompatible versions of an extension, and couldn't see why an application (with an embedded Python interpreter) was misbehaving -- it was getting the wrong version of the extension. Not sure this is much use to anyone, but here's my decision tree, which has worked well for me over the past 7 years: 1) Do I do a bunch of unix-y command line stuff in general, and not want to develop OS-X GUIs? if yes -- use system Python. if no: Do I need/want a newer version than Apple provides? if yes: build non-framework version from source. Do I need/want to use py2app to distribute my app(s)? Never happens. Do I want to use pre-build binaries of common hard-to-build packages? if yes: cry about the general unfairness of the world, then build them from source instead to work with the system Python. Bill ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Hi Tony, 1. Why are there so many variations of the Python installer for the Mac? I think you'll find that the biggest difference between MacPorts python (and fink python) and most other builds (python.org for example), is that MacPorts uses X11 rather than Aqua (Apple's native window manager) and are not built as Apple 'Frameworks' - but rather regular shared libraries (more like with linux). Using fink and MacPorts help integration with many linux type apps (particularly helpful for scientific programming) whilst the native, Framework builds are better for native looking Macintosh apps - and the Apple bundled python is obviously native. This is a simple summary, and there are 101 more differences between all the builds - but I think the first decision you'll want to make is whether to go the Linux route, or go 'native' ;-) hth, Dan Daniel O'Donovan dan.odono...@gmail.com ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
And- I want to update the default python that came om my macbook pro to 2.7. Should I do install that from Python.org? I personally think that this would be the simplest solution - but other distributions do have their virtues and proponents. For example, Enthought takes the pain out of maintaining a good numpy / matplotlib installation and I find Activestate make building for distribution a pleasure. For now, stick with the python.org and then switching at any point is always simple - the folks here are always friendly and full of advice! Happy coding, Dan Daniel O'Donovan dan.odono...@gmail.com ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Tony Cappellini cappy2...@gmail.com wrote: And- I want to update the default python that came om my macbook pro to 2.7. Should I do install that from Python.org? My advice? I've never had good luck trying to update the default Python that comes with the Mac. I'd recommend just leaving it alone and using it, unless there's some reason you absolutely need 2.7. It is safe to build (and run) a non-Framework build of other versions of Python in various places on your Mac, but life gets complicated if you attempt to install it. Bill ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
I do want 2.7 because it's a requirement at work. I want to have the same versions packages to avoid compatibility issues. I can put Python2.7 in a different directory and leave 2.6 there but I want the 2.7 installation to be the default one. On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Bill Janssen jans...@parc.com wrote: Tony Cappellini cappy2...@gmail.com wrote: And- I want to update the default python that came om my macbook pro to 2.7. Should I do install that from Python.org? My advice? I've never had good luck trying to update the default Python that comes with the Mac. I'd recommend just leaving it alone and using it, unless there's some reason you absolutely need 2.7. It is safe to build (and run) a non-Framework build of other versions of Python in various places on your Mac, but life gets complicated if you attempt to install it. Bill ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
[Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Hello everyone, I've been doing Python development on Windows for several years, and now I will also be trying this on OSX. After getting my Macbook Pro, I've updated the os/software, then tried updating to Python 2.7. No knowing there are so many places to get the core Python installer for OSX, a friend had suggested that I install the Macports installer for 2.7 That installed fine, and I ran the command line that put that as the default Python to execute. I also use wxPython and want to continue developing wx apps on the Mac. When I tried running the installer for wx, a message was displayed indicating the postflight script had problems (I do have some info about the specifics of that problem somewhere, but it's not handy at the moment). So-my initial questions are... 1. Why are there so many variations of the Python installer for the Mac? (I'm not referring to 32-bit vs 64-bit architectures, although that does complicate things quite a bit). For example, there is the OSX installer at Python.org, then there are the Macports python variations, and I recently read about something called Macpython. How does one know which o to use? Thanks ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Thanks Dan Fink? Which one is that? On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Daniel O'Donovan dan.odono...@gmail.comwrote: Hi Tony, 1. Why are there so many variations of the Python installer for the Mac? I think you'll find that the biggest difference between MacPorts python (and fink python) and most other builds (python.org for example), is that MacPorts uses X11 rather than Aqua (Apple's native window manager) and are not built as Apple 'Frameworks' - but rather regular shared libraries (more like with linux). Using fink and MacPorts help integration with many linux type apps (particularly helpful for scientific programming) whilst the native, Framework builds are better for native looking Macintosh apps - and the Apple bundled python is obviously native. This is a simple summary, and there are 101 more differences between all the builds - but I think the first decision you'll want to make is whether to go the Linux route, or go 'native' ;-) hth, Dan Daniel O'Donovan dan.odono...@gmail.com ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
Using fink and MacPorts help integration with many linux type apps (particularly helpful for scientific programming) whilst the native, Framework builds are better for native looking Macintosh apps - and the Apple bundled python is obviously native. This is a simple summary, and there are 101 more differences between all the builds - but I think the first decision you'll want to make is whether to go the Linux route, or go 'native' ;-) Since I don't have any other specific needs at the moment other than developing wxPython apps, I think I'd better go native, since wx attempts to make the widgets look native. Well, that's a good start, but I probably need to uninstall Macports, so I can get wxPython installed to a working state. And- I want to update the default python that came om my macbook pro to 2.7. Should I do install that from Python.org? ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
In article aanlktimaqylndoskyvo5fnpfui4lwd61697nauutw...@mail.gmail.com, Tony Cappellini cappy2...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Daniel O'Donovan dan.odono...@gmail.comwrote: I think you'll find that the biggest difference between MacPorts python (and fink python) and most other builds (python.org for example), is that MacPorts uses X11 rather than Aqua (Apple's native window manager) and are not built as Apple 'Frameworks' - but rather regular shared libraries (more like with linux). Actually, while Fink uses a Unix-style shared library build, most other distributors including MacPorts, the Apple-supplied Pythons in OS X, and the ActiveState Pythons, use an OS X framework build based on the python.org builds. The Tk on MacPorts is built as an X11 version by default but there is an Aqua port variant at well. Unfortunately, the Aqua variant is broken on OS X 10.6 but there is hope that it will get unbroken now that ActiveState has started packaging a reliable version of the patched Cocoa-based Tk 8.5 which works in both 32- and 64-bit modes. -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python development on OSX
In article aanlktinytr56wgpjgh1vyxbsmbxv8trvp4zjwlhyz...@mail.gmail.com, 1. Why are there so many variations of the Python installer for the Mac? (I'm not referring to 32-bit vs 64-bit architectures, although that does complicate things quite a bit). For example, there is the OSX installer at Python.org, then there are the Macports python variations, and I recently read about something called Macpython. How does one know which o to use? You left out a few! Why are there so many? History, varying needs, release schedules, because it's a fun thing to do - those are some of the reasons. Here is my take on it. Since at least Mac OS X 10.3 (7+ years ago), Apple has been including one or more versions of Python as part of OS X and over the years they've added more and more third-party Python packages and a few of their own Python add-ons. For many people's needs, the Apple versions are sufficient. On the other hand, like many operating system distributors, Apple tends to be very conservative about which versions it includes in major OS X releases, which tend to come out every two years or so, and they usually only supply security and some bug fixes in between major releases. For example, the current OS X release, 10.6.6, has Python 2.6.1 (released 2008-12) and 2.5.4 built in. At the moment, Python 2.7.1 and Python 3.1.3 are current. So, people looking for the latest and greatest Python releases usually have to look elsewhere. Back in the old days prior to Mac OS X, there was a project to make Python available on its predecessor, Mac OS 9 (and earlier). That was known as MacPython and, in the early releases of Mac OS X, it continued to make releases for OS X. At some point, the MacPython project was merged into the standard Python Software Foundation (PSF or python.org) development and release process and installers for OS X begin being supplied as part of official releases of Python, rather than from a separate MacPython project. That's where we are today although there are still vestigial references to MacPython online. One of the interesting characteristics of Mac OS X is that it combines technology from different origins and so it presents different faces to different kinds of users. A lot of stuff comes from its NeXT operating system heritage, a somewhat non-traditional Unix. When Apple decided to use it as the basis for Mac OS X, features were added to make the transition easier for users of traditional Mac OS. And more and more vanilla open-source products and features from modern Unix-y systems (like the BSDs and Linux) were incorporated. That shows up in Python in a few ways, including two rather different ways of installing Python on OS X: a traditional shared library approach as is used on nearly all other Unix-style systems, and a unique-to-OSX framework install which is based on NeXT practices. Most distributors of OS X Pythons use the latter but not all. Another feature of OS X, rarely seen elsewhere, is the ability to have executable code for multiple architectures glued together into one file, a so-called universal file. That allows Apple to distribute one set of executable files and libraries that can support current and previous architectures. That was used to ease the big transition from PPC to Intel CPUs and, more recently, from 32-bit Intel to 64-bit Intel. It allows for a lot of flexibility and backwards compatibility but at the cost of added complexity for third-party languages like Python. So some of the reasons for different Python installers have been because of what architectures are supported and differing approaches to backwards compatibility (like how many OS X releases to support with one version). Another reason: while Apple supplies a lot of open source software as part of OS X, it doesn't supply everything. One common reason is because of licensing issues (avoiding GPL libraries, for example). Also, Apple does not supply a package manager for its software, like those developed over the years for other open source systems. There have been at least three projects that have evolved to address that: Fink which provides many of the Debian/Ubuntu packages for OS X (without the Linux kernel of course); MacPorts (previously known as DarwinPorts) which provides the FreeBSD package ports; and, more recently, HomeBrew which has its own way of managing packages. All three provide Python ports and the associated infrastructure. And that can be very useful on Mac OS X when you want to install and run Python packages that depend on third-party libraries not included with OS X. Classic examples of those are the Python Imaging Library (PIL) and MySQLdb. Both require libs not included in OS X. You can build everything yourself but, for everything to work, you need to make sure that all the pieces are compatible, that is, built with compatible archs and deployment targets. A good package
