Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Norman Gray]

Greetings.

On 25 Jun 2017, at 2:37, Vincent St-Amour wrote:


We (the RacketCon organizers) have decided to adopt the SNAPL code of
conduct (based on the ACM's) for RacketCon. You can find it on the
RacketCon web page[1].


A excellent choice: pretty near unexceptionable.

Except (typo-level things I noticed):

1. You write 'ofprogram design', missing a space.

2. Deriving the text from the SNAPL one, you've changed '...unwelcome or 
hostile behavior of an ad hominem nature, i.e., that focuses not on 
ideas but on people and identity' into '...unwelcome or hostile 
behavior, that is, behavior that focuses on people instead of ideas'.  
The first version glosses 'ad hominem', but the second appears to gloss 
'hostile behavior' instead.  If the intention was simply to rewrite the 
latinism 'ie', then you may have deleted a phrase too much and 
inadvertently garbled the sense.  If the intention was to avoid 'ad 
hominem' as well, then perhaps simply '...unwelcome or hostile behavior 
that focuses on people instead of ideas'.


3. Layout: wow -- the 70s are back (in a good way).

All the best,

Norman


--
Norman Gray  :  https://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Vincent St-Amour]

All,

Thank you all for your comments, and thank you Claire and Leif for
bringing this to our attention.

We (the RacketCon organizers) have decided to adopt the SNAPL code of
conduct (based on the ACM's) for RacketCon. You can find it on the
RacketCon web page[1].

Hope to see you all in Seattle!

Vincent


[1] con.racket-lang.org


On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 13:44:39 -0500,
Leif Andersen wrote:
> 
> RacketCon 2017 should have a code of conduct, as pointed out by Claire on 
> twitter [1], and I absolutely agree. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, 
> and can be a fairly standard one.
> 
> Although we are not co-located with Strange Loop this year, they have a 
> fairly sensible one that we could use [2], which is adapted from the one from 
> the geek feminism wiki [3].
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on what we use? I would also be happy to add it 
> to the RacketCon web page.
> 
> [1]: https://twitter.com/chckadee/status/874345544977707008
> [2]: https://www.thestrangeloop.com/policies.html
> [3]: https://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/
> 
> ~Leif Andersen
> 
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Greg Hendershott]

I'm strongly in favor.

We could evaluate this simply as a "community development and
marketing" proposition:

1. We want more people using Racket.
2. We want more people at RacketCon.
3. A familiar CoC will welcome more people.

Framed that way, I think even _I_ could blurt out the answer fast
enough for Matthias to hand me a Realm of Racket book. :D

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Leif Andersen]

programming languages


~Leif Andersen

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Hendrik Boom 
wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 08:02:44PM -0400, Neil Van Dyke wrote:
> > One,
> > relatively light, example: many people assume that everyone at a
> conference
> > doesn't mind being photographed and tagged in Facebook and such, but I've
> > heard from a few PL people who absolutely do mind, to the point that
> they've
> > avoided some events for that reason.
>
> What does PL mean?
>
> -- hendrik
>
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 08:02:44PM -0400, Neil Van Dyke wrote:
> One,
> relatively light, example: many people assume that everyone at a conference
> doesn't mind being photographed and tagged in Facebook and such, but I've
> heard from a few PL people who absolutely do mind, to the point that they've
> avoided some events for that reason.

What does PL mean?

-- hendrik

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Leif Andersen]

I agree with Matthias here, this mailing list should absolutely remain
civil.

I want to thank everyone for their feedback so far. It seems we have
reached a fix point as to what the community wants wrt a CoC. I am inclined
to that at this point we should hand it off to the main RacketCon
organizers and let them decide what to do. (They are running the show after
all.) I would be happy to do the technical work of submitting a PR to the
website, but I will leave it to one of the organizers to decide if they
want to merge it or not.

Thank you again for your input.


~Leif Andersen

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Mark Wunsch  wrote:

> In an attempt to be more "scientific" about this I would point to the
> writing and actions of some other prominent language communities, as they
> have made the argument FOR having a CoC much better than I could. Before
> that, I think we (as practitioners and members of a technical community)
> should accept that the reports of harassment, exclusion, and even assault
> are startling and far more numerous then any of us should feel comfortable
> with.
>
> The Python Software Foundation requires a CoC for all Conference grants:
> http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2012/12/psf-moves-to-require-
> code-of-conduct.html
> Jacob Kaplan-Moss, of the Python community, writes quite well on the
> subject: https://jacobian.org/writing/codes-of-conduct/
> See also, Mikeal Rogers of the NodeJS community:
> https://medium.com/node-js-javascript/codes-of-conduct-82ab2d88112d
> The Scala CoC: https://www.scala-lang.org/conduct.html
> The Clojure/conj CoC: http://2016.clojure-conj.org/policies/
> The Rust CoC: https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html
>
> One question that comes to mind is "Does the Racket community believe it
> is immune from the issues that these other communities believe should be
> addressed, and if so why?" Scientific communities have long embraced codes
> of ethics and conduct (see: https://www.acm.org/about-acm/
> acm-code-of-ethics-and-professional-conduct). Consider that a Code of
> Conduct is a mechanism that explicitly articulates those things that the
> Racket community leaders might see as implicit to making the community
> successful.
>
> Finally, Ashe Dryden has an extensive FAQ around Codes of Conduct:
> https://www.ashedryden.com/blog/codes-of-conduct-101-faq
>
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Mark Wunsch]

In an attempt to be more "scientific" about this I would point to the writing 
and actions of some other prominent language communities, as they have made the 
argument FOR having a CoC much better than I could. Before that, I think we (as 
practitioners and members of a technical community) should accept that the 
reports of harassment, exclusion, and even assault are startling and far more 
numerous then any of us should feel comfortable with.

The Python Software Foundation requires a CoC for all Conference grants: 
http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2012/12/psf-moves-to-require-code-of-conduct.html
Jacob Kaplan-Moss, of the Python community, writes quite well on the subject: 
https://jacobian.org/writing/codes-of-conduct/
See also, Mikeal Rogers of the NodeJS community: 
https://medium.com/node-js-javascript/codes-of-conduct-82ab2d88112d
The Scala CoC: https://www.scala-lang.org/conduct.html
The Clojure/conj CoC: http://2016.clojure-conj.org/policies/
The Rust CoC: https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/conduct.html

One question that comes to mind is "Does the Racket community believe it is 
immune from the issues that these other communities believe should be 
addressed, and if so why?" Scientific communities have long embraced codes of 
ethics and conduct (see: 
https://www.acm.org/about-acm/acm-code-of-ethics-and-professional-conduct). 
Consider that a Code of Conduct is a mechanism that explicitly articulates 
those things that the Racket community leaders might see as implicit to making 
the community successful.

Finally, Ashe Dryden has an extensive FAQ around Codes of Conduct: 
https://www.ashedryden.com/blog/codes-of-conduct-101-faq

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Matthias Felleisen]

Everyone: 

this discussion is the first time that we have a rough tone on this mailing 
list, 
and this tone is inappropriate. 

I am appealing to both sides to cool it down. 

We (the organizers and old people of this community) appreciate all 
non-emotional
input. Science and science organizations are explicitly not about democracy but 
we
intend to listen to your ‘technical’ inputs in this matter. 

— Matthias

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Brian Mastenbrook]

On 06/17/2017 01:50 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:


A code of conduct is a totally stupid idea for RacketCon. Racketeers were 
raised properly by their parents and are well behaved. I really hate attending 
conferences that need to impose a code.
I think you might be reading something in to this request that's not 
meant by those who are asking for it. You are right to be proud of the 
Racket community today and I don't think anyone here is implying otherwise.


Having a code of conduct does not mean that us Racketeers are not well 
behaved or that we need to impose a code to keep us in line. What it 
does is outline what we consider to be bad behavior, defines some of the 
possible consequences, and makes it clear who is responsible for 
handling violations. The point of doing this is to make sure that any 
possible violations of the expected behavior aren't fatal to the 
environment that the Racket developers have worked hard to create. If 
you don't specify this, it's not at all clear what to do in the event of 
a violation and some (many?) people may decide it's not worth the risk 
of dealing with unspecified consequences.


This should sound familiar. We all use a programming environment that 
does this despite being good programmers who were taught properly by our 
professors, because programs are complex and sometimes we make mistakes. 
Humans are a lot more complex than programs, and having been raised with 
the virtues of humility and open-mindedness by our parents, we should 
all be willing to admit the possibility of errors in the human domain 
too. In both cases the goal isn't to be punitive or restrictive but to 
make sure that the environment is protected.


If it turns out that the safety mechanisms were unnecessary, then 
RacketCon will be the type of conference that doesn't need to have a 
code but has one anyway. Isn't that better than the alternative?


--
Brian Mastenbrook
br...@mastenbrook.net
https://brian.mastenbrook.net/

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Neil Van Dyke]

I think this thread has gotten delightfully meta, in that I've heard 
that some people who would like to contribute in forums get scared away 
when observing interaction styles that they find very confrontational.


Not that I always remember this myself, and I also make other mistakes, 
but... When talking in a forum, we might believe that a particular 
person can take a particular style, though we know that the style would 
be too spirited to use with someone else.  But such a someone else might 
see that interaction, not know the style is selective, and not want to 
go anywhere near that discussion.


The Racket community is usually good about online tone.  But I suppose 
this thread topic is more important and emotional than most of our 
technical threads, and there's a lot of good intent behind that.


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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Deren Dohoda]

If by whiskey, Jack. Your guarantees on this matter are unenforceable and
therefore meaningless, and any further comment on my ignorance will likely
violate any CoC you care to throw your weight behind, so best get it out
now because you can't unring this bell.

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Jack Firth  wrote:

> > These are invariably motte and bailey style arguments and the notion
> that the only reason I or anyone else could possibly resent CoCs is some
> desire to abuse their absence is astonishing. How you could not find such
> groupthink "censorious" is beyond my ability to sympathize with. I can only
> reiterate that CoCs are not some kind of dealbreaker for me personally but
> as this is an open discussion I will just say I don't think they're all
> benefit and no cost. My disagreement on this matter does not constitute an
> admission of guilt; to abuse a racket construct: there's a bug in your
> contract spec, it's blaming the wrong party.
>
> The important point is that a CoC is a choice to prioritize the safety,
> welfare, and happiness of minority groups over the privilege of individuals
> to say / do whatever they want. Sure, you might say that's a tradeoff, and
> sure, you could call that censorship, but whatever "cost" there is of
> hypothetically blaming a party inappropriately is worth paying ten times
> over for the benefit of making traditionally less-welcomed people more
> included. I guarantee you the incidents a CoC is designed to prevent occur
> *far* more often than any incidents of mis-applying the CoC to an innocent
> individual. Not realizing that is willful ignorance.
>
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Jack Firth]

> These are invariably motte and bailey style arguments and the notion that the 
> only reason I or anyone else could possibly resent CoCs is some desire to 
> abuse their absence is astonishing. How you could not find such groupthink 
> "censorious" is beyond my ability to sympathize with. I can only reiterate 
> that CoCs are not some kind of dealbreaker for me personally but as this is 
> an open discussion I will just say I don't think they're all benefit and no 
> cost. My disagreement on this matter does not constitute an admission of 
> guilt; to abuse a racket construct: there's a bug in your contract spec, it's 
> blaming the wrong party.

The important point is that a CoC is a choice to prioritize the safety, 
welfare, and happiness of minority groups over the privilege of individuals to 
say / do whatever they want. Sure, you might say that's a tradeoff, and sure, 
you could call that censorship, but whatever "cost" there is of hypothetically 
blaming a party inappropriately is worth paying ten times over for the benefit 
of making traditionally less-welcomed people more included. I guarantee you the 
incidents a CoC is designed to prevent occur *far* more often than any 
incidents of mis-applying the CoC to an innocent individual. Not realizing that 
is willful ignorance.

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Neil Van Dyke]

This is not my call, but in the traditional Racket convention of 
everyone voicing thoughts...


One gentle way to communicate awareness and intent of inclusiveness:

"The Racket community enjoys and appreciates a collegial and 
helpful atmosphere, in which everyone feels welcome.  We expect that 
everyone will have a good experience at RacketCon, and that everyone 
will help to make it a good experience for everyone else.  Any concerns 
or suggestions, small or large, please feel encouraged to approach any 
conference organizer or core Racket person."


What the above doesn't address: whether there should be a CoC explicit 
itemization of rules.  There's a breadth of thoughtful opinions on that 
question, and it's complicated.  My thoughts have changed a bit as a 
result of this thread, and a decision would seem to come down to 
balancing goals and guessing, so I'd just like to toss out a few thoughts:


* It is important to acknowledge that inclusiveness is an issue, and to 
communicate good intent about inclusiveness.  That's part of what people 
are looking for.


* Some of the CoCs that people cited in this thread included rules that 
I know *aren't* universally-accepted in broad IT conference circles.  
(One, relatively light, example: many people assume that everyone at a 
conference doesn't mind being photographed and tagged in Facebook and 
such, but I've heard from a few PL people who absolutely do mind, to the 
point that they've avoided some events for that reason.  The heavier 
examples include things like very different ideas about the 
appropriateness of "flirting" in various contexts, and different 
understandings of how discouraging unwanted attention like that can 
be.)  Whether there will be sufficient universally-accepted behavior in 
future years of RacketCon, as it hopefully grows, I don't know.


* I think that Racket is an unusually (not "usually"; typo in an earlier 
message) good community, and, AFAIK, has a good track record on 
inclusiveness.  (Though I want to see a lot more female names in "From:" 
headers on this email list!)


* I suspect Fortune 500 corporate lawyers could go either way (on CoC 
vs. welcoming statement), out of purely risk-averse intent. Racket is 
not a Fortune 500, and it is driven mostly by universities, which are 
supposed to have broadly constructive intent.


* Sometimes a gentle position is blind to problems.  In this particular 
case, I suspect we can afford gentle.


* I think this is probably a situation in which implicit high 
expectations elevate everyone.


* There's been a lot of awareness-raising in this thread, and in recent 
history of other conferences, which helps.


* In activism, some of the most encouraging stories are from when 
something was starting to go bad, but then people stepped up, with 
grace.  (Ambiguity: when is the occasion to step up, and what is the 
graceful move.)


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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Deren Dohoda]

>Bluntly, if someone finds the admonition to refrain from harassment
"censorious", then it is likely they are exactly the sort of person that a
Code of Conduct is in fact *designed* to make feel unwelcome.

These are invariably motte and bailey style arguments and the notion that
the only reason I or anyone else could possibly resent CoCs is some desire
to abuse their absence is astonishing. How you could not find such
groupthink "censorious" is beyond my ability to sympathize with. I can only
reiterate that CoCs are not some kind of dealbreaker for me personally but
as this is an open discussion I will just say I don't think they're all
benefit and no cost. My disagreement on this matter does not constitute an
admission of guilt; to abuse a racket construct: there's a bug in your
contract spec, it's blaming the wrong party.

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 3:31 PM, John Berry  wrote:

> The problem with the longer text, such as the Strange Loop one[1], is that
>> it's manifestly _very_ hard to come up with a text that doesn't radiate
>> censoriousness; and however much this isn't the literal implication of the
>> text, it does implant the notion that the reader or the community has
>> behaviour problems.  That text does not radiate 'you are welcome' -- it
>> tells me, 'we have so many gits roaming the corridors of our conference
>> that we have to police them'.  In its phrasing, a text like this appears to
>> presume that the reader is an undersocialised thug, who needs to be given
>> an extensive but non-exhaustive list of things to remember not to do.  One
>> has to carefully suppress one's initial reaction to it, and smile sweetly.
>
>
> Bluntly, if someone finds the admonition to refrain from harassment
> "censorious", then it is likely they are exactly the sort of person that a
> Code of Conduct is in fact *designed* to make feel unwelcome.
>
> This is a feature, not a design flaw.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 9:13 PM, Stephen De Gabrielle <
> spdegabrie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I would suggest that it is more important to get a COC on the RacketCon
>> website than it is to argue over the wording. I would suggest that every
>> day that passes without a CoC on the website adds to the risk that possible
>> racketcon participants might decide not to go... to the detriment of the
>> Racket community.
>>
>> I really love how welcoming this community is - even more than I love the
>> ideas you put into or expressed with Racket. It is your greatest strength.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Stephen
>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 at 18:55, Norman Gray  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Greetings.
>>>
>>> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:18, John Berry wrote:
>>>
>>> > Nothing about a document saying "hey, don't be an ass" implies that
>>> > the
>>> > reader themselves, or the community, are asses. Only that the
>>> > community
>>> > values not being an ass, and those who might wish to join that
>>> > community
>>> > and not be an ass are welcome, and that those who have had to deal
>>> > with too
>>> > many asses will hopefully find fewer here.
>>>
>>> If the document literally said just 'hey, don't be an ass', or 'don't be
>>> a git', or 'c'mon, behave', then that would be fine.  Perhaps it could
>>> have a footnote saying 'Surely you can tell when you're being a git --
>>> if you for some reason have difficulty with this, then see [link]'.  A
>>> text like that presumes that the reader is grown-up, but indicates, for
>>> the avoidance of doubt, that adult civility is indeed expected in the
>>> meeting.
>>>
>>> The problem with the longer text, such as the Strange Loop one[1], is
>>> that it's manifestly _very_ hard to come up with a text that doesn't
>>> radiate censoriousness; and however much this isn't the literal
>>> implication of the text, it does implant the notion that the reader or
>>> the community has behaviour problems.  That text does not radiate 'you
>>> are welcome' -- it tells me, 'we have so many gits roaming the corridors
>>> of our conference that we have to police them'.  In its phrasing, a text
>>> like this appears to presume that the reader is an undersocialised thug,
>>> who needs to be given an extensive but non-exhaustive list of things to
>>> remember not to do.  One has to carefully suppress one's initial
>>> reaction to it, and smile sweetly.
>>>
>>> Also, any text like that almost inevitably acquires a legalistic air,
>>> and just screams out for disputation, and the reddit thread...
>>>
>>> > For the unconvinced, I really appreciated Graydon Hoare's perspective
>>> > on
>>> > why he implemented the Rust CoC.
>>> > https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
>>> > about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/didrult/
>>> > https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
>>> > about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/dif1xvb/
>>>
>>> ...seems to corroborate this.
>>>
>>> To clarify, this remark is about communication and presentation.  The
>>> underlying wish to encourage civility 

Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[John Berry]

>
> The problem with the longer text, such as the Strange Loop one[1], is that
> it's manifestly _very_ hard to come up with a text that doesn't radiate
> censoriousness; and however much this isn't the literal implication of the
> text, it does implant the notion that the reader or the community has
> behaviour problems.  That text does not radiate 'you are welcome' -- it
> tells me, 'we have so many gits roaming the corridors of our conference
> that we have to police them'.  In its phrasing, a text like this appears to
> presume that the reader is an undersocialised thug, who needs to be given
> an extensive but non-exhaustive list of things to remember not to do.  One
> has to carefully suppress one's initial reaction to it, and smile sweetly.


Bluntly, if someone finds the admonition to refrain from harassment
"censorious", then it is likely they are exactly the sort of person that a
Code of Conduct is in fact *designed* to make feel unwelcome.

This is a feature, not a design flaw.



On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 9:13 PM, Stephen De Gabrielle <
spdegabrie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would suggest that it is more important to get a COC on the RacketCon
> website than it is to argue over the wording. I would suggest that every
> day that passes without a CoC on the website adds to the risk that possible
> racketcon participants might decide not to go... to the detriment of the
> Racket community.
>
> I really love how welcoming this community is - even more than I love the
> ideas you put into or expressed with Racket. It is your greatest strength.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Stephen
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 at 18:55, Norman Gray  wrote:
>
>>
>> Greetings.
>>
>> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:18, John Berry wrote:
>>
>> > Nothing about a document saying "hey, don't be an ass" implies that
>> > the
>> > reader themselves, or the community, are asses. Only that the
>> > community
>> > values not being an ass, and those who might wish to join that
>> > community
>> > and not be an ass are welcome, and that those who have had to deal
>> > with too
>> > many asses will hopefully find fewer here.
>>
>> If the document literally said just 'hey, don't be an ass', or 'don't be
>> a git', or 'c'mon, behave', then that would be fine.  Perhaps it could
>> have a footnote saying 'Surely you can tell when you're being a git --
>> if you for some reason have difficulty with this, then see [link]'.  A
>> text like that presumes that the reader is grown-up, but indicates, for
>> the avoidance of doubt, that adult civility is indeed expected in the
>> meeting.
>>
>> The problem with the longer text, such as the Strange Loop one[1], is
>> that it's manifestly _very_ hard to come up with a text that doesn't
>> radiate censoriousness; and however much this isn't the literal
>> implication of the text, it does implant the notion that the reader or
>> the community has behaviour problems.  That text does not radiate 'you
>> are welcome' -- it tells me, 'we have so many gits roaming the corridors
>> of our conference that we have to police them'.  In its phrasing, a text
>> like this appears to presume that the reader is an undersocialised thug,
>> who needs to be given an extensive but non-exhaustive list of things to
>> remember not to do.  One has to carefully suppress one's initial
>> reaction to it, and smile sweetly.
>>
>> Also, any text like that almost inevitably acquires a legalistic air,
>> and just screams out for disputation, and the reddit thread...
>>
>> > For the unconvinced, I really appreciated Graydon Hoare's perspective
>> > on
>> > why he implemented the Rust CoC.
>> > https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
>> > about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/didrult/
>> > https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
>> > about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/dif1xvb/
>>
>> ...seems to corroborate this.
>>
>> To clarify, this remark is about communication and presentation.  The
>> underlying wish to encourage civility is entirely laudable, and the
>> experience of being on the wrong end of careless or careful incivility
>> would be entirely unpleasant and deplorable, and a conference should aim
>> to discourage such incivility by any available effective mechanisms.
>>
>> If, after all, the only effective mechanism is a rule-book such as is
>> being discussed, then can I commend the FreeBSD code [2] which I think
>> communicates the underlying goals very well, even though it's primarily
>> intended to cover behaviour online, rather than face-to-face.  To my ear
>> it benefits from a very slightly old-fashioned air, including the rather
>> old-fashioned implication that 'we're sure this stuff doesn't really
>> need to be said, but since you ask...'
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Norman
>>
>>
>> [1] https://www.thestrangeloop.com/policies.html
>> [2] https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
>>
>> --
>> Norman Gray  :  https://nxg.me.uk
>> SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of 

Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Stephen De Gabrielle]

I would suggest that it is more important to get a COC on the RacketCon
website than it is to argue over the wording. I would suggest that every
day that passes without a CoC on the website adds to the risk that possible
racketcon participants might decide not to go... to the detriment of the
Racket community.

I really love how welcoming this community is - even more than I love the
ideas you put into or expressed with Racket. It is your greatest strength.

Kind regards

Stephen
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 at 18:55, Norman Gray  wrote:

>
> Greetings.
>
> On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:18, John Berry wrote:
>
> > Nothing about a document saying "hey, don't be an ass" implies that
> > the
> > reader themselves, or the community, are asses. Only that the
> > community
> > values not being an ass, and those who might wish to join that
> > community
> > and not be an ass are welcome, and that those who have had to deal
> > with too
> > many asses will hopefully find fewer here.
>
> If the document literally said just 'hey, don't be an ass', or 'don't be
> a git', or 'c'mon, behave', then that would be fine.  Perhaps it could
> have a footnote saying 'Surely you can tell when you're being a git --
> if you for some reason have difficulty with this, then see [link]'.  A
> text like that presumes that the reader is grown-up, but indicates, for
> the avoidance of doubt, that adult civility is indeed expected in the
> meeting.
>
> The problem with the longer text, such as the Strange Loop one[1], is
> that it's manifestly _very_ hard to come up with a text that doesn't
> radiate censoriousness; and however much this isn't the literal
> implication of the text, it does implant the notion that the reader or
> the community has behaviour problems.  That text does not radiate 'you
> are welcome' -- it tells me, 'we have so many gits roaming the corridors
> of our conference that we have to police them'.  In its phrasing, a text
> like this appears to presume that the reader is an undersocialised thug,
> who needs to be given an extensive but non-exhaustive list of things to
> remember not to do.  One has to carefully suppress one's initial
> reaction to it, and smile sweetly.
>
> Also, any text like that almost inevitably acquires a legalistic air,
> and just screams out for disputation, and the reddit thread...
>
> > For the unconvinced, I really appreciated Graydon Hoare's perspective
> > on
> > why he implemented the Rust CoC.
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
> > about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/didrult/
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
> > about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/dif1xvb/
>
> ...seems to corroborate this.
>
> To clarify, this remark is about communication and presentation.  The
> underlying wish to encourage civility is entirely laudable, and the
> experience of being on the wrong end of careless or careful incivility
> would be entirely unpleasant and deplorable, and a conference should aim
> to discourage such incivility by any available effective mechanisms.
>
> If, after all, the only effective mechanism is a rule-book such as is
> being discussed, then can I commend the FreeBSD code [2] which I think
> communicates the underlying goals very well, even though it's primarily
> intended to cover behaviour online, rather than face-to-face.  To my ear
> it benefits from a very slightly old-fashioned air, including the rather
> old-fashioned implication that 'we're sure this stuff doesn't really
> need to be said, but since you ask...'
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Norman
>
>
> [1] https://www.thestrangeloop.com/policies.html
> [2] https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
>
> --
> Norman Gray  :  https://nxg.me.uk
> SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK
>
> --
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Stephen
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Norman Gray]

Greetings.

On 19 Jun 2017, at 16:18, John Berry wrote:

Nothing about a document saying "hey, don't be an ass" implies that 
the
reader themselves, or the community, are asses. Only that the 
community
values not being an ass, and those who might wish to join that 
community
and not be an ass are welcome, and that those who have had to deal 
with too

many asses will hopefully find fewer here.


If the document literally said just 'hey, don't be an ass', or 'don't be 
a git', or 'c'mon, behave', then that would be fine.  Perhaps it could 
have a footnote saying 'Surely you can tell when you're being a git -- 
if you for some reason have difficulty with this, then see [link]'.  A 
text like that presumes that the reader is grown-up, but indicates, for 
the avoidance of doubt, that adult civility is indeed expected in the 
meeting.


The problem with the longer text, such as the Strange Loop one[1], is 
that it's manifestly _very_ hard to come up with a text that doesn't 
radiate censoriousness; and however much this isn't the literal 
implication of the text, it does implant the notion that the reader or 
the community has behaviour problems.  That text does not radiate 'you 
are welcome' -- it tells me, 'we have so many gits roaming the corridors 
of our conference that we have to police them'.  In its phrasing, a text 
like this appears to presume that the reader is an undersocialised thug, 
who needs to be given an extensive but non-exhaustive list of things to 
remember not to do.  One has to carefully suppress one's initial 
reaction to it, and smile sweetly.


Also, any text like that almost inevitably acquires a legalistic air, 
and just screams out for disputation, and the reddit thread...


For the unconvinced, I really appreciated Graydon Hoare's perspective 
on

why he implemented the Rust CoC.
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/didrult/
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/dif1xvb/


...seems to corroborate this.

To clarify, this remark is about communication and presentation.  The 
underlying wish to encourage civility is entirely laudable, and the 
experience of being on the wrong end of careless or careful incivility 
would be entirely unpleasant and deplorable, and a conference should aim 
to discourage such incivility by any available effective mechanisms.


If, after all, the only effective mechanism is a rule-book such as is 
being discussed, then can I commend the FreeBSD code [2] which I think 
communicates the underlying goals very well, even though it's primarily 
intended to cover behaviour online, rather than face-to-face.  To my ear 
it benefits from a very slightly old-fashioned air, including the rather 
old-fashioned implication that 'we're sure this stuff doesn't really 
need to be said, but since you ask...'


Best wishes,

Norman


[1] https://www.thestrangeloop.com/policies.html
[2] https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html

--
Norman Gray  :  https://nxg.me.uk
SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[John Berry]

I will always 100% support the adoption of a CoC drafted by people with
experience in dealing with discrimination, harassment, and toxic behaviour.
It is impossible to understate just how much gets swept under the rug
without one, and increasingly, the lack of one itself tends to attract
toxic people who use terms like "virtue signalling" unironically.

The GFW/Strange Loop CoC is well worn and considered and would be as good
as any we'd be liable to come up with ourselves.

Nothing about a document saying "hey, don't be an ass" implies that the
reader themselves, or the community, are asses. Only that the community
values not being an ass, and those who might wish to join that community
and not be an ass are welcome, and that those who have had to deal with too
many asses will hopefully find fewer here.

For the unconvinced, I really appreciated Graydon Hoare's perspective on
why he implemented the Rust CoC.
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/didrult/
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/6ewjt5/question_
about_rusts_odd_code_of_conduct/dif1xvb/

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 9:44 PM, Leif Andersen 
wrote:

> RacketCon 2017 should have a code of conduct, as pointed out by Claire on
> twitter [1], and I absolutely agree. It doesn't have to be anything fancy,
> and can be a fairly standard one.
>
> Although we are not co-located with Strange Loop this year, they have a
> fairly sensible one that we could use [2], which is adapted from the one
> from the geek feminism wiki [3].
>
> Does anyone have any opinions on what we use? I would also be happy to add
> it to the RacketCon web page.
>
> [1]: https://twitter.com/chckadee/status/874345544977707008
> [2]: https://www.thestrangeloop.com/policies.html
> [3]: https://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/
>
> ~Leif Andersen
>
> --
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Andrew Gwozdziewycz]

I used to run a Meetup in NYC called "Hack and Tell." For the first 5
years or something I kind of expected people to just be nice to each
other, and do the right thing. Then, I started having private
conversations with people, some women, some POC, and realized they had
bad interactions that I just simply wasn't aware of.

So, yeah, it's nice to think that people will behave and do the right
thing, but it's not guaranteed, and everyone will have a *better*
experience if there's a code of conduct and it's taken seriously and
enforced.

+1000 on having a code of conduct. Sorry, Matthias.

On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 5:13 PM, 'William J. Bowman' via Racket Users
 wrote:
> If men were angels... +1 for a CoC.
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 09:50:53PM +0300, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>>
>> A code of conduct is a totally stupid idea for RacketCon. Racketeers were 
>> raised properly by their parents and are well behaved. I really hate 
>> attending conferences that need to impose a code.
>>
>> --
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

['William J. Bowman' via Racket Users]

If men were angels... +1 for a CoC.

On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 09:50:53PM +0300, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> 
> A code of conduct is a totally stupid idea for RacketCon. Racketeers were 
> raised properly by their parents and are well behaved. I really hate 
> attending conferences that need to impose a code. 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Matt Jadud]

I'm with Claire 100%.

I think the code of conduct proposed as a starting point is completely
reasonable.

So, "+1."

Cheers,
Matt

On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 12:07 PM, claire alvis 
wrote:

> On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 2:53:23 PM UTC-4, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> > A code of conduct is a totally stupid idea for RacketCon. Racketeers
> were raised properly by their parents and are well behaved. I really hate
> attending conferences that need to impose a code.
>

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[claire alvis]

On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 2:53:23 PM UTC-4, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> A code of conduct is a totally stupid idea for RacketCon. Racketeers were 
> raised properly by their parents and are well behaved. I really hate 
> attending conferences that need to impose a code.

Not all people at the conference will be Racketeers.

Not all people at the conference will have the same definition of "raised 
properly by their parents".

Not all people considering attending the conference will know whether or not 
this is a safe community.  Some may be unwilling to spend the money to attend 
RacketCon without knowing ahead of time that they are meant to be welcome.  
Some may not be interested in a community that refuses to explicitly say toxic 
people are unwelcome.

If you all have a definition of what "raised properly by their parents" means, 
writing down that definition both deters potentially toxic people from 
attending and, more importantly, attracts people who have previously had bad 
experiences at programming language conferences.  A code of conduct is a simple 
signal of inclusivity and it helps people decide whether a community is worth 
their time and energy.

I don't doubt that you all will continue to treat each other with respect (and 
deal with people who are not respectful) with or without a code of conduct.  
But I would suggest by not being explicit, you are making an unfortunate 
tradeoff: excluding a set of people who could otherwise be valuable members of 
your community by leaving the door open for toxicity.

Needless to say, as a RacketCon attendee, Racket observer, and person who has 
experienced harassment and other inappropriate behavior at conferences in the 
past, +1 for a code of conduct.

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Stephen De Gabrielle]

As a middle-aged white heterosexual male I've never needed a COC.

It is my understanding that clear COCs (that are enforced) are valuable in
that they reduce the both the incidence and impact of discrimination and
harassment.

Kind regards

Stephen

On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 at 19:53, Matthias Felleisen 
wrote:

>
> A code of conduct is a totally stupid idea for RacketCon. Racketeers were
> raised properly by their parents and are well behaved. I really hate
> attending conferences that need to impose a code.
>
> --
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Deren Dohoda]

I don't believe virtue signaling can ever substitute for actual virtue. If,
however, a failure to signal virtue is interpreted as a vice, then this is
a sticky situation indeed. There is the argument that if everyone behaved
we wouldn't need laws, but there is also the argument that people still
misbehave even with laws. I do not have shoulders high enough to stand on
to get a clear view of this topic (I'm quite sure such heights have never
been reached). What I do know is that I resent CoCs as much as I resent
software agreements which I must acquiesce to in order to use something. I
don't believe they are a good idea. But in the end I always click "agree"
and install the software anyway.

On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Neil Van Dyke  wrote:

> Unfortunately, event "codes of conduct" started, in part, as reactions to
> actual bad behavior at some (non-Racket) events.
>
> I agree that RacketCon doesn't need a code of conduct to tell people how
> to behave.  But people relatively new to Racket might not know that.
> Hence, the conventional "code of conduct", or maybe simply a statement that
> affirms that everyone is welcome.
>
> For all I know, the following might suffice as a welcoming statement. :)
>
> Matthias Felleisen wrote on 06/17/2017 02:50 PM:
>
>> Racketeers were raised properly by their parents and are well behaved.
>>
>
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Neil Van Dyke]

Unfortunately, event "codes of conduct" started, in part, as reactions 
to actual bad behavior at some (non-Racket) events.


I agree that RacketCon doesn't need a code of conduct to tell people how 
to behave.  But people relatively new to Racket might not know that.  
Hence, the conventional "code of conduct", or maybe simply a statement 
that affirms that everyone is welcome.


For all I know, the following might suffice as a welcoming statement. :)

Matthias Felleisen wrote on 06/17/2017 02:50 PM:

Racketeers were raised properly by their parents and are well behaved.


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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Daniel Prager]

+1 for a code of conduct from me.

Although I can only rarely attend RacketCon (coming from Australia) codes
of conduct seem to have had a net positive effect at local conferences:
enhancing inclusivity and tone.

Perhaps one day such codes can be optimized away, but in the present day
requiring these contracts makes for explicit and efficient exception
handling.


Dan

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Matthias Felleisen]

A code of conduct is a totally stupid idea for RacketCon. Racketeers were 
raised properly by their parents and are well behaved. I really hate attending 
conferences that need to impose a code. 

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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Neil Van Dyke]

Good point.  The Strange Loop policy looks OK to me.  Another one I 
think is OK is FSF LibrePlanet's.


Racket is an usually good community (which is the biggest reason I'm 
here), and I really don't expect any problem at RacketCon.  But I know 
that these kinds of policies have been necessary and helpful, from time 
to time, at some other events.  Given that, an event communicating such 
a policy is a welcoming act.


Also, it can help inclusiveness to sanity check one's own Racket 
materials, occasionally.  Especially in the context of Racket, with its 
involvement in education and IT, where inclusiveness is an especially 
high priority.  (To acknowledge one of my own recent oopses: maybe a few 
weeks ago, I excised, from some Racket writing of mine, some innocuous 
parody lyrics to the tune of a 1980s top-40 song, when I realized that 
the original song could be discouraging in a Racket context.  I don't 
want to think about some of the much more exclusionary things I've 
realized I've done inadvertently over the years.  All I can do is try to 
be conscientious, and continue to learn.)


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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Sam Caldwell]

I agree that we should have one.

- Sam Caldwell

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Stephen De Gabrielle <
spdegabrie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Awesome. (It's an opinion)
>
> On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 at 19:48, Alexis King  wrote:
>
>> +1 from me. I think the Strange Loop CoC is a good one to emulate.
>>
>> > On Jun 16, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Leif Andersen 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > RacketCon 2017 should have a code of conduct, as pointed out by Claire
>> > on twitter [1], and I absolutely agree. It doesn't have to be anything
>> > fancy, and can be a fairly standard one.
>> >
>> > Although we are not co-located with Strange Loop this year, they have
>> > a fairly sensible one that we could use [2], which is adapted from the
>> > one from the geek feminism wiki [3].
>> >
>> > Does anyone have any opinions on what we use? I would also be happy
>> > to add it to the RacketCon web page.
>> >
>> > [1]: https://twitter.com/chckadee/status/874345544977707008
>> > [2]: https://www.thestrangeloop.com/policies.html
>> > [3]: https://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/
>> >
>> > ~Leif Andersen
>>
>> --
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> Stephen
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Re: [racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Stephen De Gabrielle]

Awesome. (It's an opinion)
On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 at 19:48, Alexis King  wrote:

> +1 from me. I think the Strange Loop CoC is a good one to emulate.
>
> > On Jun 16, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Leif Andersen 
> > wrote:
> >
> > RacketCon 2017 should have a code of conduct, as pointed out by Claire
> > on twitter [1], and I absolutely agree. It doesn't have to be anything
> > fancy, and can be a fairly standard one.
> >
> > Although we are not co-located with Strange Loop this year, they have
> > a fairly sensible one that we could use [2], which is adapted from the
> > one from the geek feminism wiki [3].
> >
> > Does anyone have any opinions on what we use? I would also be happy
> > to add it to the RacketCon web page.
> >
> > [1]: https://twitter.com/chckadee/status/874345544977707008
> > [2]: https://www.thestrangeloop.com/policies.html
> > [3]: https://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/
> >
> > ~Leif Andersen
>
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Kind regards,
Stephen
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[racket-users] RacketCon Code of Conduct

[Leif Andersen]

RacketCon 2017 should have a code of conduct, as pointed out by Claire on
twitter [1], and I absolutely agree. It doesn't have to be anything fancy,
and can be a fairly standard one.

Although we are not co-located with Strange Loop this year, they have a
fairly sensible one that we could use [2], which is adapted from the one
from the geek feminism wiki [3].

Does anyone have any opinions on what we use? I would also be happy to add
it to the RacketCon web page.

[1]: https://twitter.com/chckadee/status/874345544977707008
[2]: https://www.thestrangeloop.com/policies.html
[3]: https://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/

~Leif Andersen

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