Re: [RE-wrenches] panel fire
Jay, I am assuming that you are referring to their membrane / flat roof product, the roof tile is a standard laminate with a polymer frame. The membrane product is a lamination of (PVCDIBONDTEDLARCELLSETFE cover sheet) with all of the required adhesives and EVA. The membranes have been manufactured in both a 450 225 Watt versions, and I am pretty sure that they have all utilized Sunpower cells, although I know they were testing with some other manufactures. I am not sure if you were thinking that they might be the culprit for this panel fire or not, but I am 99.9% sure that the panels shown in the photos were not Open Energy product. The membranes have never been produced (that I am aware of) with a metalized frame around the lamination, although I know that some people (inexperienced self installers) do some weird things when they get product in their hands. Also, all of the membranes have a J-Box on the front of the panel, as they are intended to be mounted directly onto a flat membrane roof. The ETFE cover sheet that is used, is a plastic type material, but it is not smooth like the material in the photos appeared to be, it is somewhat dimpled if you will. They have also passed a Class A fire rating test at slopes of 2:12 and less. Please keep in mind that I am no longer an Open Energy employee and do not promote their product for better or worse, but I do have some personal insight to their construction I thought I would share. Also, since I left, I doubt they have a representative on this list. Best Regards, Brian C. White Sr. Design Engineer - PV System Eagle Roofing Products 120 North Auburn Street - Suite 212 Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone: 530-273-2948 Cell: 530-575-5550 e-mail: bri...@eagleroofing.com mailto:bri...@eagleroofing.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org on behalf of jay peltz Sent: Sun 2/22/2009 1:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel fire Hi All, I'm wondering if there has been any more news about the panel fire on the wind-sun site? What are the Open Energy ( now applied solar) made with? I know they are a non glass unit, but I don't know what the bottom/backing is made of? thanks, jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org winmail.dat___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] panel fire
HI Brian, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't assuming they were the product on this roof, but the size and construction seem similar, jay peltz power On Feb 23, 2009, at 11:00 AM, Brian White wrote: Jay, I am assuming that you are referring to their membrane / flat roof product, the roof tile is a standard laminate with a polymer frame. The membrane product is a lamination of (PVCDIBONDTEDLARCELLSETFE cover sheet) with all of the required adhesives and EVA. The membranes have been manufactured in both a 450 225 Watt versions, and I am pretty sure that they have all utilized Sunpower cells, although I know they were testing with some other manufactures. I am not sure if you were thinking that they might be the culprit for this panel fire or not, but I am 99.9% sure that the panels shown in the photos were not Open Energy product. The membranes have never been produced (that I am aware of) with a metalized frame around the lamination, although I know that some people (inexperienced self installers) do some weird things when they get product in their hands. Also, all of the membranes have a J-Box on the front of the panel, as they are intended to be mounted directly onto a flat membrane roof. The ETFE cover sheet that is used, is a plastic type material, but it is not smooth like the material in the photos appeared to be, it is somewhat dimpled if you will. They have also passed a Class A fire rating test at slopes of 2:12 and less. Please keep in mind that I am no longer an Open Energy employee and do not promote their product for better or worse, but I do have some personal insight to their construction I thought I would share. Also, since I left, I doubt they have a representative on this list. Best Regards, Brian C. White Sr. Design Engineer - PV System Eagle Roofing Products 120 North Auburn Street - Suite 212 Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone: 530-273-2948 Cell: 530-575-5550 e-mail: bri...@eagleroofing.com mailto:bri...@eagleroofing.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org on behalf of jay peltz Sent: Sun 2/22/2009 1:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel fire Hi All, I'm wondering if there has been any more news about the panel fire on the wind-sun site? What are the Open Energy ( now applied solar) made with? I know they are a non glass unit, but I don't know what the bottom/backing is made of? thanks, jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org winmail.dat___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] panel fire
Jay, No worries, I thought that they sounded very similar as well, and was pretty much convinced they were the culprits until I found the pictures. Best Regards, Brian C. White Sr. Design Engineer - PV System Eagle Roofing Products 120 North Auburn Street - Suite 212 Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone: 530-273-2948 Cell: 530-575-5550 e-mail: bri...@eagleroofing.com mailto:bri...@eagleroofing.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org on behalf of jay peltz Sent: Mon 2/23/2009 12:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] panel fire HI Brian, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't assuming they were the product on this roof, but the size and construction seem similar, jay peltz power On Feb 23, 2009, at 11:00 AM, Brian White wrote: Jay, I am assuming that you are referring to their membrane / flat roof product, the roof tile is a standard laminate with a polymer frame. The membrane product is a lamination of (PVCDIBONDTEDLARCELLSETFE cover sheet) with all of the required adhesives and EVA. The membranes have been manufactured in both a 450 225 Watt versions, and I am pretty sure that they have all utilized Sunpower cells, although I know they were testing with some other manufactures. I am not sure if you were thinking that they might be the culprit for this panel fire or not, but I am 99.9% sure that the panels shown in the photos were not Open Energy product. The membranes have never been produced (that I am aware of) with a metalized frame around the lamination, although I know that some people (inexperienced self installers) do some weird things when they get product in their hands. Also, all of the membranes have a J-Box on the front of the panel, as they are intended to be mounted directly onto a flat membrane roof. The ETFE cover sheet that is used, is a plastic type material, but it is not smooth like the material in the photos appeared to be, it is somewhat dimpled if you will. They have also passed a Class A fire rating test at slopes of 2:12 and less. Please keep in mind that I am no longer an Open Energy employee and do not promote their product for better or worse, but I do have some personal insight to their construction I thought I would share. Also, since I left, I doubt they have a representative on this list. Best Regards, Brian C. White Sr. Design Engineer - PV System Eagle Roofing Products 120 North Auburn Street - Suite 212 Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone: 530-273-2948 Cell: 530-575-5550 e-mail: bri...@eagleroofing.com mailto:bri...@eagleroofing.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org on behalf of jay peltz Sent: Sun 2/22/2009 1:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel fire Hi All, I'm wondering if there has been any more news about the panel fire on the wind-sun site? What are the Open Energy ( now applied solar) made with? I know they are a non glass unit, but I don't know what the bottom/backing is made of? thanks, jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org winmail.dat___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org winmail.dat___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Joel, As another Maine installer (of over 20 years) I second Tump's assessment.I, too, know Dr.Komp and have volunteered a lot of time for the MSEA. Dr.Komp is a very intelligent engineer, but without the quality control and testing I would not want a high voltage DC system of homebrew panels on my home, nor should anyone else. We have worked too hard. Dr.Komps work is incredibly valuable and helpful to those in third world countries who have low voltage, extremely low use electrical systems, but we are talking apples and oranges here. Daryl Joel, Living IN MAINE interacting w/ Richard Komp I have to disagree on your statement below. RC is very smart has worked in solar MANY years but he is NOT very helpful to those of us trying to make a living doing PV here in Maine. I was asked to size an inverter( probably the 4th person he contacted) for a local radio talk host that was buying 60 Watt solar modules from Richard's guys that were building them in NY at a prison. These modules were costing this guy $300.00 I looked at a couple to try establish Isc Voc to match them w/ a grid tie inverter, needless to say their power characteristics were all over the place. The modules were found to have ~46-54Wts, NO outdoor rated wire for that matter there was NO listing on the wire.A tube of caulk per module. I brought this to the attention of both this guy RK only to hear something like we need to address our QC a bit better. I suggested that using an Enphase Invt + Sanyo modules I could sell him UL listed products w/ a warrantee for ~$6.90/wt. Please understand that I do know rk there IS a place for his work in 3rd world countries BUT not here in the USA where we are trying to establish a profession that you too Joel have worked long hard to develop. As for the Maine sun there is very little that address the real PROFESSIONAL world of solar nor has their been any discussion about the need for limited license or certified installers. Its a rag that promotes DIY his work in Central A. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire There are good people who make and teach other people how to make solar modules. Richard Komp, co-author of the 1983 edition of The New Solar Electric Home, author of Practical Photovoltaics, President of the Maine Solar Energy Society, etc. See http://www.mainesolar.org/ Tor Allen, founder of the Rahus Institute, etc. See http://www.rahus.org/ and many more well-informed, good people around the world. - Original Message - From: Matt mailto:gilliga...@gmail.com Lafferty To: jry...@netscape.com ; 'RE-wrenches' mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Hi Jeff, Somebody should keep an eye on that neighbor of your friend. There have been any number of DIY publications and scams out there. Here's just one of many that basically lead to the same thing http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/hsh/1031018343.html The C-list ad has a link to this place: http://www.solar-panel-kit.net/ What this one is is a $50 book that tells you how to build your own windmill, PV module Yada Yada... This particular one is a guy named Michael Harvey. Anybody know him? This is only 1 bright idea away from the guy who rented the shop next to your friend. As in, that guy bought this book thinking he was gonna beat the utility. When he went to Ebay to buy his 1st batch of cells, he saw that they weren't all that scarce. He beat Travis C out on an auction and built a couple for himself. Then he had the bright idea! What if he did this for a bunch of people and sold them? It's not necessarily that the guy with the bright idea was evil... Not necessarily. He could just happen to be a guy who isn't fully informed and thinks that there's just no reason for why everybody else charges so much and wants to do right by everybody. But, as the old saying goes, ignorance is no excuse for the law. I'm wondering if this is really the brainchild and factory for CitizenRE... Independent dealers all over the country buying surplus cells on Ebay... That would be a mahvelous concept... Until they burn, of course. That kinda puts a kink in the residential PPA model. But hey, if all you gotta do is buy $30 worth of slotted angle, 64 each 1/4-20 x 1 bolts nuts, 20 lags, a tube of caulk, and some wire for BOS and the modules cost you $0.50 a watt and you don't bother faking a label on them, you probably don't have to even apply for a rebate. You could have your kids just slapping cells onto plexiglass and putting clear shrink-wrap over the front and sticking them onto 1-1/2 aluminum angle for a frame. Just a thought Matt Lafferty
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Michael, Last night I sent the message below to the contact email for the chapel, and got their response. I would like to forward this to the list, in order to guide our collective behavior. How do you advise that I proceed? Allan -Original Message- Hi gang. Contact me off list if any questions or concerns. We can probably find these folks' home and their system if we want to, we are very close. But they have gone to lengths to protect household privacy, so please let's not make it public here. Hello Allan: Thanks for your email and your kind words, and I appreciate your attention to our recent solar module-related fire. I am not the person responsible for the Wind-Sun posting--my husband posted the photos and inquiry--but our hats are off to you and your associates for quickly finding and correlating my Examiner article with the Wind-Sun forum. Though the expertise and opinions of your colleagues have been very educational for us, we are extremely disturbed by the vigilante tone of the postings and comments and we wish to make it clear that attempts to interfere in our situation--and that includes unsolicited contact with us or our local authorities--will be dealt with immediately and harshly. I am a journalist, public official, and a Community Emergency Response Team member; in the course of my professional and volunteer duties I work closely with fire personnel, law and code enforcement, and City/State/County/Federal authorities. We are fully aware of the agencies that need to be involved, reports that need to be filed, and procedures that need to be followed as a result of this event. The situation is very complex and you do not have the entire story, and we are very upset about defamatory statements being made about us and our installer. Our installer is NOT criminally liable, nor the ultimate or only responsible party here; investigations are currently pending concerning liability and subrogation, and libelous statements from people outside the situation endanger our ability to substantiate and recover our losses. I am sorry to have to say this, but if we find that anyone from your forum has improperly attempted to inform or influence these investigations or the companies/agencies involved, we will prosecute to the full extent of the law. I hope you will make this clear not only on your boards but to any who have contacted you off list as well. We make no secret of our location or identities--we have nothing to hide--and perhaps when this case is closed we will be able to answer your questions and provide more specific information about this incident. I have a vested interest in consumer safety and you can be assured that I will be writing about this incident in detail once it is fully behind us (we hope with a happily-and-safely solar-powered ending to the story.) However, we will diligently protect our financial interests and our privacy while this case is active, and we hope you and your associates will recognize and respect our need to manage this situation ourselves. We are grateful for your industry's devotion to safety and professionalism, but tampering with our investigative process is inappropriate and will cause us further harm. Please be patient while we sort it out, and we we look forward to a sunnier future both for ourselves and our sustainable home. Kind Regards, Elizabeth Oakes - http://www.MarriageToGo.Com Mobile Marriage Licensing and Wedding Officiant Services(Los Angeles, CA) 310.288.6658 marr...@marriagetogo.com skypename: marriagetogo.com Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. --Erich Fromm Elizabeth Oakes is the National Wedding Examiner column @ Examiner.Com: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-Examiner Come be a friend/fan of MarriageToGo on http://www.Facebook.com! Allan Sindelar wrote: Hello, I want to express my condolences regarding your solar panel fire. I share your relief that the fire was so quickly extinguished, and that you have continued to maintain such a positive attitude about solar in spite of your experience. Thank you for that; it shows maturity and courage. There has been quite a bit of discussion of your solar panel fire among professional PV installers in the U.S. Much of the character of the discussion mirrors the responses on the Wind-Sun forum you posted to, but you might value the rest: _http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/2009/sub ject.html#start_; scroll down to the topic panel fire. The general consensus is that the installer was essentially criminal and should be prosecuted and put out of business, based on observations of the installation and photos you posted. The panels were unlisted, unsafe, and of poor quality, possibly home-made. Nearly all modern panels (actually properly called modules) have tempered glass toward the sun. Nobody had seen this before;
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Hi William, If there is a fire danger, it goes beyond any action has to be taken by the home owner. Neighbors's safety and PV professionals' reputation and livlihood are at risk. The fire is out. Now it's time to investigate calmly and quietly. Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: William Miller To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Friends: Michael makes a good point about privacy. As much as we all want to get this out in the open so that maybe we can prevent the installer form burning down more houses, any action has to be taken by the home owner. I am wondering if Wind-Sun, who hosts the user site on which the posts were made, could e-mail the home owner and make a pitch for them contacting the fire marshal. If we were to investigate any further, one of you single wrenches would have to go undercover and get married at their in-home wedding chapel. I imagine single wrenches would rather have a house fire. William Miller At 07:13 PM 2/12/2009, you wrote: Hi gang. Contact me off list if any questions or concerns. We can probably find these folks' home and their system if we want to, we are very close. But they have gone to lengths to protect household privacy, so please let's not make it public here. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Joel, Living IN MAINE interacting w/ Richard Komp I have to disagree on your statement below. RC is very smart has worked in solar MANY years but he is NOT very helpful to those of us trying to make a living doing PV here in Maine. I was asked to size an inverter( probably the 4th person he contacted) for a local radio talk host that was buying 60 Watt solar modules from Richard's guys that were building them in NY at a prison. These modules were costing this guy $300.00 I looked at a couple to try establish Isc Voc to match them w/ a grid tie inverter, needless to say their power characteristics were all over the place. The modules were found to have ~46-54Wts, NO outdoor rated wire for that matter there was NO listing on the wire.A tube of caulk per module. I brought this to the attention of both this guy RK only to hear something like we need to address our QC a bit better. I suggested that using an Enphase Invt + Sanyo modules I could sell him UL listed products w/ a warrantee for ~$6.90/wt. Please understand that I do know rk there IS a place for his work in 3rd world countries BUT not here in the USA where we are trying to establish a profession that you too Joel have worked long hard to develop. As for the Maine sun there is very little that address the real PROFESSIONAL world of solar nor has their been any discussion about the need for limited license or certified installers. Its a rag that promotes DIY his work in Central A. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire There are good people who make and teach other people how to make solar modules. Richard Komp, co-author of the 1983 edition of The New Solar Electric Home, author of Practical Photovoltaics, President of the Maine Solar Energy Society, etc. See http://www.mainesolar.org/ Tor Allen, founder of the Rahus Institute, etc. See http://www.rahus.org/ and many more well-informed, good people around the world. - Original Message - From: Matt mailto:gilliga...@gmail.com Lafferty To: jry...@netscape.com ; 'RE-wrenches' mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Hi Jeff, Somebody should keep an eye on that neighbor of your friend. There have been any number of DIY publications and scams out there. Here's just one of many that basically lead to the same thing http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/hsh/1031018343.html The C-list ad has a link to this place: http://www.solar-panel-kit.net/ What this one is is a $50 book that tells you how to build your own windmill, PV module Yada Yada... This particular one is a guy named Michael Harvey. Anybody know him? This is only 1 bright idea away from the guy who rented the shop next to your friend. As in, that guy bought this book thinking he was gonna beat the utility. When he went to Ebay to buy his 1st batch of cells, he saw that they weren't all that scarce. He beat Travis C out on an auction and built a couple for himself. Then he had the bright idea! What if he did this for a bunch of people and sold them? It's not necessarily that the guy with the bright idea was evil... Not necessarily. He could just happen to be a guy who isn't fully informed and thinks that there's just no reason for why everybody else charges so much and wants to do right by everybody. But, as the old saying goes, ignorance is no excuse for the law. I'm wondering if this is really the brainchild and factory for CitizenRE... Independent dealers all over the country buying surplus cells on Ebay... That would be a mahvelous concept... Until they burn, of course. That kinda puts a kink in the residential PPA model. But hey, if all you gotta do is buy $30 worth of slotted angle, 64 each 1/4-20 x 1 bolts nuts, 20 lags, a tube of caulk, and some wire for BOS and the modules cost you $0.50 a watt and you don't bother faking a label on them, you probably don't have to even apply for a rebate. You could have your kids just slapping cells onto plexiglass and putting clear shrink-wrap over the front and sticking them onto 1-1/2 aluminum angle for a frame. Just a thought Matt Lafferty gilliga...@gmail.com _ Jeff Y wrote: The other day a guy rented a warehouse near a business friend of mine and he went over to say Hi. My friend later told me this guy told him he was planning to build solar pv modules that he was going to sell and install. Although my friend was no engineer and didn't really know what to look for, when I described some of the typical equipment that is required he said it was mostly just work benches and hand tools. I am betting your first reaction was the same as mine which was - how could he expect to hand build solar module's to compete
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
That is quite the frightening response, I wonder just HOW closely, I work closely with fire personnel, law and code enforcement. Was this inspected? So much for QC! -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:15 AM To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Wrenches, OK, so this went out to the list by mistake. Where's the unsend button when I need it? By reading on, you can see that I intended to ask Michael for guidance before posting this to the list. I sent what I believe was a kind and supportive message to the contact email of the Marriage-to-go website. You can read what I sent below, along with the homeowner's reply. She has asked that their privacy be respected. I'll leave it to all of us to speculate on the rest of the story. Allan at Positive Energy -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 7:51 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Michael, Last night I sent the message below to the contact email for the chapel, and got their response. I would like to forward this to the list, in order to guide our collective behavior. How do you advise that I proceed? Allan -Original Message- Hi gang. Contact me off list if any questions or concerns. We can probably find these folks' home and their system if we want to, we are very close. But they have gone to lengths to protect household privacy, so please let's not make it public here. Hello Allan: Thanks for your email and your kind words, and I appreciate your attention to our recent solar module-related fire. I am not the person responsible for the Wind-Sun posting--my husband posted the photos and inquiry--but our hats are off to you and your associates for quickly finding and correlating my Examiner article with the Wind-Sun forum. Though the expertise and opinions of your colleagues have been very educational for us, we are extremely disturbed by the vigilante tone of the postings and comments and we wish to make it clear that attempts to interfere in our situation--and that includes unsolicited contact with us or our local authorities--will be dealt with immediately and harshly. I am a journalist, public official, and a Community Emergency Response Team member; in the course of my professional and volunteer duties I work closely with fire personnel, law and code enforcement, and City/State/County/Federal authorities. We are fully aware of the agencies that need to be involved, reports that need to be filed, and procedures that need to be followed as a result of this event. The situation is very complex and you do not have the entire story, and we are very upset about defamatory statements being made about us and our installer. Our installer is NOT criminally liable, nor the ultimate or only responsible party here; investigations are currently pending concerning liability and subrogation, and libelous statements from people outside the situation endanger our ability to substantiate and recover our losses. I am sorry to have to say this, but if we find that anyone from your forum has improperly attempted to inform or influence these investigations or the companies/agencies involved, we will prosecute to the full extent of the law. I hope you will make this clear not only on your boards but to any who have contacted you off list as well. We make no secret of our location or identities--we have nothing to hide--and perhaps when this case is closed we will be able to answer your questions and provide more specific information about this incident. I have a vested interest in consumer safety and you can be assured that I will be writing about this incident in detail once it is fully behind us (we hope with a happily-and-safely solar-powered ending to the story.) However, we will diligently protect our financial interests and our privacy while this case is active, and we hope you and your associates will recognize and respect our need to manage this situation ourselves. We are grateful for your industry's devotion to safety and professionalism, but tampering with our investigative process is inappropriate and will cause us further harm. Please be patient while we sort it out, and we we look forward to a sunnier future both for ourselves and our sustainable home. Kind Regards, Elizabeth Oakes - http://www.MarriageToGo.Com Mobile Marriage Licensing and Wedding Officiant Services(Los Angeles, CA) 310.288.6658 marr...@marriagetogo.com skypename: marriagetogo.com Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. --Erich Fromm Elizabeth Oakes is the National Wedding Examiner column @ Examiner.Com: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
I tracked this down on Whitepages.com http://yellowpages.superpages.com/mapbasedsearch/mapsearch.jsp?SRC=comwpC=Marriage+To+Go+ComT=beverly+hillsS=CASTYPE=SL=Beverly+Hills+CAR=NEG=1RR=10LID=2064408120map.x=212map.y=125level=8lat=034022631lng=-118449410POI1lat=034022631POI1lng=-118449410POI1name=Marriage+To+Go+Comstreetaddress=3435+Ocean+Park+Boulevardcity=Santa+Monicastate=CAzip=90405spad=no Ken Hulet Engineering Services Co. 204 S. Main St. Blanchardville, WI 53516 608.523.3726 On Feb 12, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Joel Davidson wrote: Maybe I missed this information, but does anyone know 1) the address of this system? 2) the installer? See http://www.marriagetogo.com/homeoffice.html - Original Message - From: Michael Welch To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire This seems corroborating. It has GOT to be the same situation: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage- Examiner~y2009m2d10-Our-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire- literally Search the page for solar to get to the crux of it, and . P.S. Tempered glass won't melt, but clear plastic goop poured over the top of silicon cells (which can be seen littering the roof) will melt. These are probably homemade modules. What I see on the charred roof is consistent with plastic encapsulated modules burning and melting. Also, the racking is consistent with the first pre-fire photo. These poor folks really got taken to the cleaners by their installer which MUST BE STOPPED. Brian Sipp wrote at 06:17 PM 2/11/2009: I may be very wrong here and I don’t mean to impugn anyone’s integrity, but don’t forget that in this era of digital animation movies you can’t always believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. I’ve never seen a photo look like that in reality. It’s as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the poster is giving about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc. --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:57 PM One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me. Allan at + NRG ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
The other day a guy rented a warehouse near a business friend of mine and he went over to say Hi. My friend later told me this guy told him he was planning to "build" solar pvmodules that he was going to sell and install.Although my friend was no engineer and didn't really know what to look for, when I described some of the typical equipment that is required he said it was mostly just work benches andhand tools. I am betting your first reaction was the same as mine which was -how could he expect tohand build solar module's to compete with commerciallymade and certified solar modules? Anyway, after reading this thread I am wondering is this more common than I thought? Is this some kind of trend? Are there others out there trying to build solar modules? And finally, with all the different commercially made and certified solar modules out there in any size, wattage, and shape you want, how can they expect to be competitive, assuming their home-made modules don't catch fire? Jeff YagoNetscape. Just the Net You Need. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Hi gang. Contact me off list if any questions or concerns. We can probably find these folks' home and their system if we want to, we are very close. But they have gone to lengths to protect household privacy, so please let's not make it public here. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Forget spire... It's now time for VC funded homebrew bozo panel assembly lines! Yikes! In all seriousness though, I have a buddy that has been making solar panels for Years. Often down in Nicaragua, sometimes here in Appalachia... Gets seconds (4ths?) from evergreen or eBay, lays em out on a sheet of glass, tabs them and then pours some encapsulant and a wooden frame... A friend has one with a polititsl yard sign as the backing membrane! Instead of a j box he has an old electric cord coming out. I Will advise him not to place his bargain near anything flamible. For a brighter energy future, Geoff Greenfield President Third Sun Solar Wind Power Ltd. 340 West State Street, Unit 25 Athens, OH 45701 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 www.Third-Sun.com Clean Energy - Expertly Installed - Engineering Services Co. khu...@revolutionearth.com wrote: I tracked this down on Whitepages.com http://yellowpages.superpages.com/mapbasedsearch/mapsearch.jsp?SRC=comwpC=Marriage+To+Go+ComT=beverly+hillsS=CASTYPE=SL=Beverly+Hills+CAR=NEG=1RR=10LID=2064408120map.x=212map.y=125level=8lat=034022631lng=-118449410POI1lat=034022631POI1lng=-118449410POI1name=Marriage+To+Go+Comstreetaddress=3435+Ocean+Park+Boulevardcity=Santa+Monicastate=CAzip=90405spad=no Ken Hulet Engineering Services Co. 204 S. Main St. Blanchardville, WI 53516 608.523.3726 On Feb 12, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Joel Davidson wrote: Maybe I missed this information, but does anyone know 1) the address of this system? 2) the installer? See http://www.marriagetogo.com/homeoffice.html - Original Message - From: Michael Welch To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire This seems corroborating. It has GOT to be the same situation: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage- Examiner~y2009m2d10-Our-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire- literally Search the page for solar to get to the crux of it, and . P.S. Tempered glass won't melt, but clear plastic goop poured over the top of silicon cells (which can be seen littering the roof) will melt. These are probably homemade modules. What I see on the charred roof is consistent with plastic encapsulated modules burning and melting. Also, the racking is consistent with the first pre-fire photo. These poor folks really got taken to the cleaners by their installer which MUST BE STOPPED. Brian Sipp wrote at 06:17 PM 2/11/2009: I may be very wrong here and I don’t mean to impugn anyone’s integrity, but don’t forget that in this era of digital animation movies you can’t always believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. I’ve never seen a photo look like that in reality. It’s as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the poster is giving about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc. --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:57 PM One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me. Allan at + NRG ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
There are good people who make and teach other people how to make solar modules. Richard Komp, co-author of the 1983 edition of The New Solar Electric Home, author of Practical Photovoltaics, President of the Maine Solar Energy Society, etc. See http://www.mainesolar.org/ Tor Allen, founder of the Rahus Institute, etc. See http://www.rahus.org/ and many more well-informed, good people around the world. - Original Message - From: Matt Lafferty To: jry...@netscape.com ; 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Hi Jeff, Somebody should keep an eye on that neighbor of your friend. There have been any number of DIY publications and scams out there. Here's just one of many that basically lead to the same thing http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/hsh/1031018343.html The C-list ad has a link to this place: http://www.solar-panel-kit.net/ What this one is is a $50 book that tells you how to build your own windmill, PV module Yada Yada... This particular one is a guy named Michael Harvey. Anybody know him? This is only 1 bright idea away from the guy who rented the shop next to your friend. As in, that guy bought this book thinking he was gonna beat the utility. When he went to Ebay to buy his 1st batch of cells, he saw that they weren't all that scarce. He beat Travis C out on an auction and built a couple for himself. Then he had the bright idea! What if he did this for a bunch of people and sold them? It's not necessarily that the guy with the bright idea was evil... Not necessarily. He could just happen to be a guy who isn't fully informed and thinks that there's just no reason for why everybody else charges so much and wants to do right by everybody. But, as the old saying goes, ignorance is no excuse for the law. I'm wondering if this is really the brainchild and factory for CitizenRE... Independent dealers all over the country buying surplus cells on Ebay... That would be a mahvelous concept... Until they burn, of course. That kinda puts a kink in the residential PPA model. But hey, if all you gotta do is buy $30 worth of slotted angle, 64 each 1/4-20 x 1 bolts nuts, 20 lags, a tube of caulk, and some wire for BOS and the modules cost you $0.50 a watt and you don't bother faking a label on them, you probably don't have to even apply for a rebate. You could have your kids just slapping cells onto plexiglass and putting clear shrink-wrap over the front and sticking them onto 1-1/2 aluminum angle for a frame. Just a thought Matt Lafferty gilliga...@gmail.com -- Jeff Y wrote: The other day a guy rented a warehouse near a business friend of mine and he went over to say Hi. My friend later told me this guy told him he was planning to build solar pv modules that he was going to sell and install. Although my friend was no engineer and didn't really know what to look for, when I described some of the typical equipment that is required he said it was mostly just work benches and hand tools. I am betting your first reaction was the same as mine which was - how could he expect to hand build solar module's to compete with commercially made and certified solar modules? Anyway, after reading this thread I am wondering is this more common than I thought? Is this some kind of trend? Are there others out there trying to build solar modules? And finally, with all the different commercially made and certified solar modules out there in any size, wattage, and shape you want, how can they expect to be competitive, assuming their home-made modules don't catch fire? -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire + DIY Ebooks
Hi all -- Thought I'd better chime in now. We are going to start seeing a lot of this (fires, electrocutions, lawsuits), and RE Wrenches are going to have to be aware of it and be prepared for repair calls, consulting, and even expert witness court testimony. Since besides private RE consulting, I work for a website focused on DIY renewable energy, I buy books and Ebooks and review them. About 8 years ago I got one for $12.95 about cheap PV modules. I imagine the guy made a few hundred bucks on this paper book. It had such tidbits as getting smashed solar panels from traffic sign rental places, buying solar cells, gluing them to plywood and wiring them together, and how older PV modules (and batteries) are available for pennies on the dollar from RE installers because homeowners often upgrade to newer PV panels. Yeah, right. Now someone is getting rich, thanks to an affiliate program-- the Earth4Energy Ebook sells for $49.95, there's a DVD too, and has the same misinformation as the old book, updated with color photos and plans for an impossible wind turbine (8 foot PVC blades, small tape drive motor, no furling system, 1000 watts @ 20mph -- yeah, right). This Ebook (85 pages, large type, lots of white space) sells online under dozens of different names now. They all review each other, with glowing reports about how the utility pays THEM and how YOU can do all this too for only $200 in materials! What's scary and dangerous is that the ads all imply grid tie applications for this homebrew stuff: Don't pay for your electricity any longer... Instead, the power company will pay YOU! But in the site FAQs: Will I learn how to wire the renewable power into my homes AC breaker panel? Wiring your own power into the AC breaker panel is very dangerous and is illegal unless it is done by a qualified electrician. And then from the Earth4Energy Ebook: If you do not wish to go as far as connecting your system to the breaker panel you can simply run your appliances straight from your AC inverter. Running your appliances straight from the inverter is easy and a very cheap option. I assume this means the homeowner is to run extension cords around the house to each appliance? Oh my. I am currently working with other DIY renewable energy authors to get some real reviews up about Earth4Energy and all its affiliates. They are selling tens of thousands of copies of this crap. The average person that buys these $49.95 Ebooks has NO clue about how any RE system, wind or PV, off grid or on, works. The websites cleverly do not mention that the $200 you spend for building your own plywood PV panels and toy wind turbines doesn't include a grid tie inverter, balance of system components, and signoff by a licensed installer or electrician...and at least where *I* live, the county inspector would go ballistic if he saw PV cells glued to plywood. Jeff Yago -- you might look into this. I can send you a copy of Earth4Energy, I DID buy it after getting complaints here about the Ebook and DVD, and the whole topic (even without naming names) might make a great column for you in Countryside or Backwoods Home. As someone who tries to encourage DIY RE, this whole thing is mortifying. It gives the entire RE industry a bad name (not just the DIY folks) because the implication is that professional RE installers are ripping the customer off with $1000 PV modules, when the customer could just build their own. We have a nice list of installations where folks that built our DIY wind turbines (a modified Hugh Piggott design) from our book Homebrew Wind Power (ISBN 978-0-9819201-0-8) have been successfully permitted and signed off on by the inspectors for both off-grid and islanding grid-tie. That's another reason this Earth4Energy Ebook thing infuriates methe wind turbine information in there is both impossible in claimed power output and dangerous in application. -- Wrenches, be prepared for a storm of questions about this stuffit's everywhere now. On the bright side -- I always charge double my normal hourly rate to diagnose and fix RE systems that I didn't design and install. AND, for the professional RE wrench with NABCEP certifications and an electrician's license, being an expert witness in a court case can be a very good paying gig! DAN FINK http://www.otherpower.com/ // What this one is is a $50 book that tells you how to build your own windmill, PV module Yada Yada... This particular one is a guy named Michael Harvey. Anybody know him? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire + DIY Ebooks
That book was one of the first things to cross my mind, since the construction of the panels sounded very much like the method described in that book. We may never know for sure, but that Earth4Energy book is so full of bad info that we are bound to see problems in the future. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Dan Fink dan...@hughes.net To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire + DIY Ebooks Hi all -- Thought I'd better chime in now. We are going to start seeing a lot of this (fires, electrocutions, lawsuits), and RE Wrenches are going to have to be aware of it and be prepared for repair calls, consulting, and even expert witness court testimony. Since besides private RE consulting, I work for a website focused on DIY renewable energy, I buy books and Ebooks and review them. About 8 years ago I got one for $12.95 about cheap PV modules. I imagine the guy made a few hundred bucks on this paper book. It had such tidbits as getting smashed solar panels from traffic sign rental places, buying solar cells, gluing them to plywood and wiring them together, and how older PV modules (and batteries) are available for pennies on the dollar from RE installers because homeowners often upgrade to newer PV panels. Yeah, right. Now someone is getting rich, thanks to an affiliate program-- the Earth4Energy Ebook sells for $49.95, there's a DVD too, and has the same misinformation as the old book, updated with color photos and plans for an impossible wind turbine (8 foot PVC blades, small tape drive motor, no furling system, 1000 watts @ 20mph -- yeah, right). This Ebook (85 pages, large type, lots of white space) sells online under dozens of different names now. They all review each other, with glowing reports about how the utility pays THEM and how YOU can do all this too for only $200 in materials! What's scary and dangerous is that the ads all imply grid tie applications for this homebrew stuff: Don't pay for your electricity any longer... Instead, the power company will pay YOU! But in the site FAQs: Will I learn how to wire the renewable power into my homes AC breaker panel? Wiring your own power into the AC breaker panel is very dangerous and is illegal unless it is done by a qualified electrician. And then from the Earth4Energy Ebook: If you do not wish to go as far as connecting your system to the breaker panel you can simply run your appliances straight from your AC inverter. Running your appliances straight from the inverter is easy and a very cheap option. I assume this means the homeowner is to run extension cords around the house to each appliance? Oh my. I am currently working with other DIY renewable energy authors to get some real reviews up about Earth4Energy and all its affiliates. They are selling tens of thousands of copies of this crap. The average person that buys these $49.95 Ebooks has NO clue about how any RE system, wind or PV, off grid or on, works. The websites cleverly do not mention that the $200 you spend for building your own plywood PV panels and toy wind turbines doesn't include a grid tie inverter, balance of system components, and signoff by a licensed installer or electrician...and at least where *I* live, the county inspector would go ballistic if he saw PV cells glued to plywood. Jeff Yago -- you might look into this. I can send you a copy of Earth4Energy, I DID buy it after getting complaints here about the Ebook and DVD, and the whole topic (even without naming names) might make a great column for you in Countryside or Backwoods Home. As someone who tries to encourage DIY RE, this whole thing is mortifying. It gives the entire RE industry a bad name (not just the DIY folks) because the implication is that professional RE installers are ripping the customer off with $1000 PV modules, when the customer could just build their own. We have a nice list of installations where folks that built our DIY wind turbines (a modified Hugh Piggott design) from our book Homebrew Wind Power (ISBN 978-0-9819201-0-8) have been successfully permitted and signed off on by the inspectors for both off-grid and islanding grid-tie. That's another reason this Earth4Energy Ebook thing infuriates methe wind turbine information in there is both impossible in claimed power output and dangerous in application. -- Wrenches, be prepared for a storm of questions about this stuffit's everywhere now. On the bright side -- I always charge double my normal hourly rate to diagnose and fix RE systems that I didn't design and install
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Friends: Michael makes a good point about privacy. As much as we all want to get this out in the open so that maybe we can prevent the installer form burning down more houses, any action has to be taken by the home owner. I am wondering if Wind-Sun, who hosts the user site on which the posts were made, could e-mail the home owner and make a pitch for them contacting the fire marshal. If we were to investigate any further, one of you single wrenches would have to go undercover and get married at their in-home wedding chapel. I imagine single wrenches would rather have a house fire. William Miller At 07:13 PM 2/12/2009, you wrote: Hi gang. Contact me off list if any questions or concerns. We can probably find these folks' home and their system if we want to, we are very close. But they have gone to lengths to protect household privacy, so please let's not make it public here. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Dear Wind-Sun: The incident described on your forum is very Interesting and scary. It is impossible to make any definitive conclusions from the vague information provided, but here are a few things that got my attention: --If I could detect, from the before photos provided, a first rate installation, I would suspect defective modules. The before photo shows some very non-standard, low quality racking, obviously slapped together from hardware store angle stock. The angles are installed across the roof pitch, catching leaves and rain water. This makes me wonder how poorly the rest of the wiring could have been and suspect that poor workmanship may be to blame. --The homeowner claims the modules are un-stickered (no specifications, manufacturer or listing). The entire package begins to appear to be a real bargain basement system. The fact that this system caught fire seems to make sense. We replaced a module today that had heat damaged connection points. It appears one of my employees did not tighten a screw terminal on an old style module and the connections got hot. The J-box cover was melted. This module had been removed and reinstalled for a re-roof. I know stainless fasteners are not conducive to repeated loosening and re-tightening, so maybe the connector screw was galled and could not be tightened. properly. I have often predicted it is only a matter of time until our industry kills someone. My bet is on electrocution of a minor due to abraded PV cables. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be in a house fire. All I can say is that I am doing everything in my power to prevent it from being on one of my jobs and to spread the gospel of protected wiring. William Miller At 10:42 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: In view of the recent discussion here about fires and PV systems, you might all want to take a look at this post that someone just posted on our forum http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4524 I never heard of this happening before. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Wrenches, Thanks to the wind-sun folks for sharing this fire story. There is a lot of conjecture in the thread, and much of it is wrong. With all due respect to Solar-Guppy, PV module encapsulant, EVA, is highly flammable, and tedlar will burn as well. The good news is that there is not a lot of fuel in the module. However, coupled with other fuels, there may be a problem. John Wiles and UL are advocating arc-fault detectors for PV arrays. It's pretty clear that this fire would have started with an arcing fault. My first impression is that these are not listed modules and therefore have not been tested for maximum voltage. The maximum voltage tests are very stringent and just from a picture of the construction, these modules would be very unlikely to pass the test. Many comments were made as to the substandard structure-that is obvious. Just because several people on the list have not seen this happen before, poorly manufactured modules can, and will do this. Even some of the best manufacturers in the world have screwed up on their construction and had fires. Without a NRTL (Nationally Recognized Testing Lab) involved in the process, there is no basic understanding of the safety of a product. Anyone who entertains the idea of installing non-listed modules at higher voltages, as may be the case with this fire, should just post these pictures on their office wall. There is no way that the money this installer saved by buying substandard product could be worth this danger. On Friday UL will be testing to see if PV modules can reduce the fire rating of class A roofing. I don't think it will, but let's hope not. These pictures will be inspiration for the day's testing. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Dear Wind-Sun: The incident described on your forum is very Interesting and scary. It is impossible to make any definitive conclusions from the vague information provided, but here are a few things that got my attention: --If I could detect, from the before photos provided, a first rate installation, I would suspect defective modules. The before photo shows some very non-standard, low quality racking, obviously slapped together from hardware store angle stock. The angles are installed across the roof pitch, catching leaves and rain water. This makes me wonder how poorly the rest of the wiring could have been and suspect that poor workmanship may be to blame. --The homeowner claims the modules are un-stickered (no specifications, manufacturer or listing). The entire package begins to appear to be a real bargain basement system. The fact that this system caught fire seems to make sense. We replaced a module today that had heat damaged connection points. It appears one of my employees did not tighten a screw terminal on an old style module and the connections got hot. The J-box cover was melted. This module had been removed and reinstalled for a re-roof. I know stainless fasteners are not conducive to repeated loosening and re-tightening, so maybe the connector screw was galled and could not be tightened. properly. I have often predicted it is only a matter of time until our industry kills someone. My bet is on electrocution of a minor due to abraded PV cables. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be in a house fire. All I can say is that I am doing everything in my power to prevent it from being on one of my jobs and to spread the gospel of protected wiring. William Miller At 10:42 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: In view of the recent discussion here about fires and PV systems, you might all want to take a look at this post that someone just posted on our forum http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4524 I never heard of this happening before. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Wrenches, After looking more closely at the pictures, it appears that they may not be glass-covered modules. Given the poor manufacturing practices, this was a fire waiting to happen the moment they turned it on. The amazing thing is that the installer is going to reinstall the module-and burn the house down this time. Notice the fire made it through the roofing in the middle. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Dear Wind-Sun: The incident described on your forum is very Interesting and scary. It is impossible to make any definitive conclusions from the vague information provided, but here are a few things that got my attention: --If I could detect, from the before photos provided, a first rate installation, I would suspect defective modules. The before photo shows some very non-standard, low quality racking, obviously slapped together from hardware store angle stock. The angles are installed across the roof pitch, catching leaves and rain water. This makes me wonder how poorly the rest of the wiring could have been and suspect that poor workmanship may be to blame. --The homeowner claims the modules are un-stickered (no specifications, manufacturer or listing). The entire package begins to appear to be a real bargain basement system. The fact that this system caught fire seems to make sense. We replaced a module today that had heat damaged connection points. It appears one of my employees did not tighten a screw terminal on an old style module and the connections got hot. The J-box cover was melted. This module had been removed and reinstalled for a re-roof. I know stainless fasteners are not conducive to repeated loosening and re-tightening, so maybe the connector screw was galled and could not be tightened. properly. I have often predicted it is only a matter of time until our industry kills someone. My bet is on electrocution of a minor due to abraded PV cables. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be in a house fire. All I can say is that I am doing everything in my power to prevent it from being on one of my jobs and to spread the gospel of protected wiring. William Miller At 10:42 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: In view of the recent discussion here about fires and PV systems, you might all want to take a look at this post that someone just posted on our forum http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4524 I never heard of this happening before. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
At the very least, it shows a good reason to not use any of those off-brand (or no brand) cheap unlisted panels that have been floating around lately. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun .. - Original Message - From: Drake Chamberlin drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire The last post on your discussion forum, from the person identified as BB, looks the most likely. The modules were large (250 W), corner mounted, with plastic (instead of glass) glazing. The panels were able to flex under wind load, and damage the internal conductors. It looks to me from the before photo, that the modules are already bowed a bit. That could be an optical illusion. That the glazing was plastic is evidenced by the fact that it burned up. If the material was glass, it would not have disintegrated the way it did. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Yeah, spooky pictures. Certainly that was non-glass glazing. I can make out a way too unsecured wire at the top left of the array but that might have been secured before the conflagration event. Could these panels have been home made by someone in their garage? I regularly loose cells for sale on E-Bay and in the back of home power. Someone's buying them. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wind-sun.com Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire At the very least, it shows a good reason to not use any of those off-brand (or no brand) cheap unlisted panels that have been floating around lately. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun .. - Original Message - From: Drake Chamberlin drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire The last post on your discussion forum, from the person identified as BB, looks the most likely. The modules were large (250 W), corner mounted, with plastic (instead of glass) glazing. The panels were able to flex under wind load, and damage the internal conductors. It looks to me from the before photo, that the modules are already bowed a bit. That could be an optical illusion. That the glazing was plastic is evidenced by the fact that it burned up. If the material was glass, it would not have disintegrated the way it did. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1943 - Release Date: 2/10/2009 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1943 - Release Date: 2/10/2009 7:20 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me. Allan at + NRG -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Wrenches, After looking more closely at the pictures, it appears that they may not be glass-covered modules. Given the poor manufacturing practices, this was a fire waiting to happen the moment they turned it on. The amazing thing is that the installer is going to reinstall the module-and burn the house down this time. Notice the fire made it through the roofing in the middle. Bill. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
I may be very wrong here and I don’t mean to impugn anyone’s integrity, but
don’t forget that in this era of digital animation movies you can’t always
believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever
Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but
notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry
and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when
just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed
to be much clearer. I’ve never seen a photo look like that in reality. It’s
as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never
seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high
temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal
of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the
poster is giving
about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc.
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote:
From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:57 PM
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One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of
the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I
find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight
250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo.
There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me.
Allan at + NRG
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Wrenches,
After looking more closely at the pictures, it appears that they may not be
glass-covered modules. Given the poor manufacturing practices, this was a fire
waiting to happen the moment they turned it on.
The amazing thing is that the installer is going to reinstall the module—and
burn the house down this time. Notice the fire made it through the roofing in
the middle.
Bill.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
This seems corroborating. It has GOT to be the same situation: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage-Examiner~y2009m2d10-Our-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire-literally Search the page for solar to get to the crux of it, and . P.S. Tempered glass won't melt, but clear plastic goop poured over the top of silicon cells (which can be seen littering the roof) will melt. These are probably homemade modules. What I see on the charred roof is consistent with plastic encapsulated modules burning and melting. Also, the racking is consistent with the first pre-fire photo. These poor folks really got taken to the cleaners by their installer which MUST BE STOPPED. Brian Sipp wrote at 06:17 PM 2/11/2009: I may be very wrong here and I donât mean to impugn anyoneâs integrity, but donât forget that in this era of digital animation movies you canât always believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. Iâve never seen a photo look like that in reality. Itâs as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the poster is giving about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc. --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:57 PM One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me. Allan at + NRG ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Amazing how this ' stuff ' just bounces around--Note the ' for more info' box at the bottom of the examiner article. It's the Fire Link.com story wrenches discussed last week--- Ken - Original Message - From: Michael Welch To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:48 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire This seems corroborating. It has GOT to be the same situation: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage-Examiner~y2009m2d10-Our-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire-literally Search the page for solar to get to the crux of it, and . P.S. Tempered glass won't melt, but clear plastic goop poured over the top of silicon cells (which can be seen littering the roof) will melt. These are probably homemade modules. What I see on the charred roof is consistent with plastic encapsulated modules burning and melting. Also, the racking is consistent with the first pre-fire photo. These poor folks really got taken to the cleaners by their installer which MUST BE STOPPED. Brian Sipp wrote at 06:17 PM 2/11/2009: I may be very wrong here and I donâ?Tt mean to impugn anyoneâ?Ts integrity, but donâ?Tt forget that in this era of digital animation movies you canâ?Tt always believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. Iâ?Tve never seen a photo look like that in reality. Itâ?Ts as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the poster is giving about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc. --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:57 PM One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me. Allan at + NRG -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Michael - it gets worse - if you look at the bottom of the website with the story about them having to leave Disneyland to run back to there house which was on fire - there are some links to related items: For more info: Screamin' is right: my favorite ride at the park Traditional anniversary gift list: Firefighter safety and solar panels http://www.firelink.com/training/articles/5689-the-dangers-of-solar-pan els-for-firefighters The third one brings up a copy of the infamous article by Chad Bozoski... A!!! http://www.firelink.com/training/articles/5689-the-dangers-of-solar-pane ls-for-firefighters Christopher MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communication Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2521, is confidential, and may also be protected by attorney-client or other privilege. If you believe that it has been sent to you in error, please do not read it. If you are not the intended recipient,you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received the message in error, then delete it. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
You have probably never looked close at many photos. I think there is a danger of getting paranoid here and ascribing some deep conspiracy to the simple fact of some non-spec or even non-legal panels burning up. It is known as depth of field, and is familiar to anyone photographer that has gotten past the casual snapshot phase. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm Shows exactly the same effect. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Brian Sipp To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire I may be very wrong here and I don’t mean to impugn anyone’s integrity, but don’t forget that in this era of digital animation movies you can’t always believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. I’ve never seen a photo look like that in reality. It’s as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. snip ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
