Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature
Isn't there a significant difference between placing a religious monument in a public park vs placing a religious monument in a State capitol building? - Original Message - From: Steven Jamar stevenja...@gmail.com To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Cc: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 9:46:54 PM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Sunnum handles this, no? Sent from Steve's iPhone On Dec 8, 2013, at 9:43 PM, hamilto...@aol.com wrote: Inevitable. Marci Marci A. Hamilton Paul R. Verkuil Chair in Public Law Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law Yeshiva University 55 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10003 (212) 790-0215 http://sol-reform.com -Original Message- From: Joel Sogol jlsa...@wwisp.com To: Religionlaw religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 9:24 pm Subject: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/08/21820518-satanists-want-statue-beside-ten-commandments-monument-at-oklahoma-legislature?lite Joel L. Sogol Attorney at Law 811 21st Ave. Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35401 ph (205) 345-0966 fx (205) 345-0971 email: jlsa...@wwisp.com website: www.joelsogol.com Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight - which is why we have evidence rules in U.S. courts. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. blockquote ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. /blockquote ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature
apologies for the previously unsigned post. Leonard A. Zanger Camp Quest of Michigan, Inc. - Original Message - From: Len campquest...@comcast.net To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 5:31:33 AM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Isn't there a significant difference between placing a religious monument in a public park vs placing a religious monument in a State capitol building? - Original Message - From: Steven Jamar stevenja...@gmail.com To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Cc: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 9:46:54 PM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Sunnum handles this, no? Sent from Steve's iPhone On Dec 8, 2013, at 9:43 PM, hamilto...@aol.com wrote: Inevitable. Marci Marci A. Hamilton Paul R. Verkuil Chair in Public Law Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law Yeshiva University 55 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10003 (212) 790-0215 http://sol-reform.com -Original Message- From: Joel Sogol jlsa...@wwisp.com To: Religionlaw religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 9:24 pm Subject: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/08/21820518-satanists-want-statue-beside-ten-commandments-monument-at-oklahoma-legislature?lite Joel L. Sogol Attorney at Law 811 21st Ave. Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35401 ph (205) 345-0966 fx (205) 345-0971 email: jlsa...@wwisp.com website: www.joelsogol.com Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight - which is why we have evidence rules in U.S. courts. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. blockquote ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. /blockquote ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature
What is the difference? Both open to the public. Both are (probably) unlimited public forums though subject to somewhat differing regulations as to use, one would suppose. But what Summum decided was that it wasn’t the public forum nature of the park that controlled but rather the compelled government speech. The question of whether the Satanists get to place a permanent religious monument in a public forum was decided in Summum — the state can refuse to do so. Whether a state can permit such monuments to be placed raises a different question — there could be establishment endorsement problems. And whether the 10 commandments can be there depends on fine distinctions unsupportable by logic, consistency, or theory, but all of those often give way to practical solutions, even in Con Law. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Director of International Programs, Institute for Intellectual Property and Social Justice http://iipsj.org Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 http://iipsj.com/SDJ/ Example is always more efficacious than precept. Samuel Johnson, 1759 On Dec 9, 2013, at 8:58 AM, Len campquest...@comcast.net wrote: apologies for the previously unsigned post. Leonard A. Zanger Camp Quest of Michigan, Inc. From: Len campquest...@comcast.net To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 5:31:33 AM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Isn't there a significant difference between placing a religious monument in a public park vs placing a religious monument in a State capitol building? From: Steven Jamar stevenja...@gmail.com To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Cc: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 9:46:54 PM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Sunnum handles this, no? Sent from Steve's iPhone On Dec 8, 2013, at 9:43 PM, hamilto...@aol.com wrote: Inevitable. Marci Marci A. Hamilton Paul R. Verkuil Chair in Public Law Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law Yeshiva University 55 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10003 (212) 790-0215 http://sol-reform.com -Original Message- From: Joel Sogol jlsa...@wwisp.com To: Religionlaw religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 9:24 pm Subject: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/08/21820518-satanists-want-statue-beside-ten-commandments-monument-at-oklahoma-legislature?lite Joel L. Sogol Attorney at Law 811 21st Ave. Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35401 ph (205) 345-0966 fx (205) 345-0971 email: jlsa...@wwisp.com website: www.joelsogol.com Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight - which is why we have evidence rules in U.S. courts. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web
RE: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature
The result and logic of Summum make sense to me, but I’ve been a little bothered by how far it’s gone. For example... earlier this year, the 6th Circuit decided Freedom from Religion Foundation v. City of Warren. The City of Warren had a Christmas display in the atrium of their city building—a crèche, a tree, reindeer and snowmen, a sign saying “Winter Welcome”—put up by the Warren Rotary Club. FFRF wanted to put up their own display, a billboard saying that religion was nothing but myth and superstition. FFRF, predictably, was denied the right to put up that display, and sued. (For the sake of disclosure, I should add that I wrote an amicus brief on FFRF’s side for the ACLU of Michigan.) Anyway, throughout the litigation, the City said that the crèche was not their crèche, but that of the Warren Rotary Club. It was not governmental speech, they said, but private speech. The City defended FFRF’s exclusion by saying that their reasons were reasonable and viewpoint-neutral. This was their clear and consistent position, at trial and on appeal. Their brief to the 6th Circuit, for example, said things like, “This crèche is accompanied by a sign that makes clear that it is 'sponsored by the Warren Rotary Club' and not intended to advocate Warren’s viewpoint” (appellee’s brief at 16). So everyone was thoroughly surprised when they got the appellate opinion, http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/13a0049p-06.pdf, which completely re-characterized the case. This was government speech, the 6th Circuit said, despite the City’s own protestations. And evaluated under Lynch/Allegheny County, it was constitutional. I’m not even disagreeing with this result. We should have briefed the government speech / Establishment Clause issues better, rather than focusing on the private speech / Free Speech and Free Exercise issues. But we treated this as private speech, because the City had conceptualized it that way the whole time—including the original letter that had denied FFRF’s request. Litigators beware. Best, Chris ___ Christopher C. Lund Associate Professor of Law Wayne State University Law School 471 West Palmer St. Detroit, MI 48202 l...@wayne.edu (313) 577-4046 (phone) (313) 577-9016 (fax) Website—http://law.wayne.edu/profile/christopher.lund/ Papers—http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=363402 _ From: Len campquest...@comcast.net To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 5:31:33 AM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Isn't there a significant difference between placing a religious monument in a public park vs placing a religious monument in a State capitol building? _ From: Steven Jamar stevenja...@gmail.com To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Cc: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 9:46:54 PM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Sunnum handles this, no? Sent from Steve's iPhone ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature
Haven’t read the opinion, but what Chris describes seems clearly right. Preferential access is a form of endorsement, whether permanent or temporary. These are the facts of Allegheny (one private actor gets to put up a Christmas display in a government building), with the reindeer and snowmen to save it under Lynch. Of course the three-plastic-reindeer rule is dubious. But treating this as government speech doesn’t seem dubious at all. Douglas Laycock Robert E. Scott Distinguished Professor of Law University of Virginia Law School 580 Massie Road Charlottesville, VA 22903 434-243-8546 From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Lund Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 10:43 AM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' Subject: RE: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature The result and logic of Summum make sense to me, but I’ve been a little bothered by how far it’s gone. For example... earlier this year, the 6th Circuit decided Freedom from Religion Foundation v. City of Warren. The City of Warren had a Christmas display in the atrium of their city building—a crèche, a tree, reindeer and snowmen, a sign saying “Winter Welcome”—put up by the Warren Rotary Club. FFRF wanted to put up their own display, a billboard saying that religion was nothing but myth and superstition. FFRF, predictably, was denied the right to put up that display, and sued. (For the sake of disclosure, I should add that I wrote an amicus brief on FFRF’s side for the ACLU of Michigan.) Anyway, throughout the litigation, the City said that the crèche was not their crèche, but that of the Warren Rotary Club. It was not governmental speech, they said, but private speech. The City defended FFRF’s exclusion by saying that their reasons were reasonable and viewpoint-neutral. This was their clear and consistent position, at trial and on appeal. Their brief to the 6th Circuit, for example, said things like, “This crèche is accompanied by a sign that makes clear that it is 'sponsored by the Warren Rotary Club' and not intended to advocate Warren’s viewpoint” (appellee’s brief at 16). So everyone was thoroughly surprised when they got the appellate opinion, http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/13a0049p-06.pdf, which completely re-characterized the case. This was government speech, the 6th Circuit said, despite the City’s own protestations. And evaluated under Lynch/Allegheny County, it was constitutional. I’m not even disagreeing with this result. We should have briefed the government speech / Establishment Clause issues better, rather than focusing on the private speech / Free Speech and Free Exercise issues. But we treated this as private speech, because the City had conceptualized it that way the whole time—including the original letter that had denied FFRF’s request. Litigators beware. Best, Chris ___ Christopher C. Lund Associate Professor of Law Wayne State University Law School 471 West Palmer St. Detroit, MI 48202 l...@wayne.edu mailto:l...@wayne.edu (313) 577-4046 (phone) (313) 577-9016 (fax) Website—http://law.wayne.edu/profile/christopher.lund/ Papers—http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=363402 _ From: Len campquest...@comcast.net mailto:campquest...@comcast.net To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu mailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 5:31:33 AM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Isn't there a significant difference between placing a religious monument in a public park vs placing a religious monument in a State capitol building? _ From: Steven Jamar stevenja...@gmail.com mailto:stevenja...@gmail.com To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu mailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Cc: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu mailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 9:46:54 PM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Sunnum handles this, no? Sent from Steve's iPhone ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
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unsubscribe Merrill Shapiro 58 Mount Vernon Lane Palm Coast, Florida 32164 386-446-6061_ mosh...@aol.com In a message dated 12/2/2013 3:07:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, religionlaw-requ...@lists.ucla.edu writes: religionlaw-requ...@lists.ucla.edu _ (mailto:mosh...@aol.com) ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature
The point of this exercise may not be a legal one, but a PR one. And if that is the case, Summum is more or less irrelevant. Of course, it is also possible that the Satanists may have retained an incompetent lawyer. Marc -Original Message- From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Jamar Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 10:36 PM To: Law Religion Law List Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature A county can surely do that - but the constitutional issue is clear. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Director of International Programs, Institute for Intellectual Property and Social Justice http://iipsj.org Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 http://iipsj.com/SDJ/ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:19-21 On Dec 8, 2013, at 10:19 PM, Marc Stern ste...@ajc.org wrote: True enough: but American Humanist Society recently persuaded a Florida county to put up theirmonument as a counter to a Ten Commandments display. Marc - Original Message - From: Douglas Laycock [mailto:dlayc...@virginia.edu] Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 09:47 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu; Joel Sogol jlsa...@wwisp.com Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at OklahomaLegislature Doesn't sound like anyone involved has read Summum -- not the Satanists, not the legislator, and not the ACLU. On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 20:22:14 -0600 Joel Sogol jlsa...@wwisp.com wrote: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/08/21820518-satanists-want-st atue-be side-ten-commandments-monument-at-oklahoma-legislature?lite Joel L. Sogol Attorney at Law 811 21st Ave. Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35401 ph (205) 345-0966 fx (205) 345-0971 email: jlsa...@wwisp.com website: www.joelsogol.com Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight - which is why we have evidence rules in U.S. courts. Douglas Laycock Robert E. Scott Distinguished Professor of Law University of Virginia Law School 580 Massie Road Charlottesville, VA 22903 434-243-8546 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
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Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature
And then there's Florida: A nearly 6-foot-tall Festivushttp://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/arts-culture/holidays/festivus-EVFES1076.topic pole made from empty beer cans will be put up in the Florida Capitol this week as a not-so-subtle protest to the recent placement of a Christmas nativity scene. The mock monument will be erected most likely on Wednesday in the same first-floor rotunda as a nativity scene depicting the birth of Jesus Christhttp://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/religion-belief/christianity/jesus-christ-PEHST0165.topic put up last week by the Florida Prayer Network. I still chuckle, I literally can't believe there will be a pile of Pabst Blue Ribbon cans in the state rotunda, said Chaz Stevens, a Deerfield Beach resident who applied to the state Department of Management Services to put the Festivus pole on display. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-festivus-florida-capitol-20131209,0,1969699.story Best wishes, Eduardo From: Christopher Lund l...@wayne.edumailto:l...@wayne.edu Reply-To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edumailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Date: Monday, December 9, 2013 9:42 AM To: 'Law Religion issues for Law Academics' religionlaw@lists.ucla.edumailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: RE: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature The result and logic of Summum make sense to me, but I’ve been a little bothered by how far it’s gone. For example... earlier this year, the 6th Circuit decided Freedom from Religion Foundation v. City of Warren. The City of Warren had a Christmas display in the atrium of their city building—a crèche, a tree, reindeer and snowmen, a sign saying “Winter Welcome”—put up by the Warren Rotary Club. FFRF wanted to put up their own display, a billboard saying that religion was nothing but myth and superstition. FFRF, predictably, was denied the right to put up that display, and sued. (For the sake of disclosure, I should add that I wrote an amicus brief on FFRF’s side for the ACLU of Michigan.) Anyway, throughout the litigation, the City said that the crèche was not their crèche, but that of the Warren Rotary Club. It was not governmental speech, they said, but private speech. The City defended FFRF’s exclusion by saying that their reasons were reasonable and viewpoint-neutral. This was their clear and consistent position, at trial and on appeal. Their brief to the 6th Circuit, for example, said things like, “This crèche is accompanied by a sign that makes clear that it is 'sponsored by the Warren Rotary Club' and not intended to advocate Warren’s viewpoint” (appellee’s brief at 16). So everyone was thoroughly surprised when they got the appellate opinion, http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/13a0049p-06.pdf, which completely re-characterized the case. This was government speech, the 6th Circuit said, despite the City’s own protestations. And evaluated under Lynch/Allegheny County, it was constitutional. I’m not even disagreeing with this result. We should have briefed the government speech / Establishment Clause issues better, rather than focusing on the private speech / Free Speech and Free Exercise issues. But we treated this as private speech, because the City had conceptualized it that way the whole time—including the original letter that had denied FFRF’s request. Litigators beware. Best, Chris ___ Christopher C. Lund Associate Professor of Law Wayne State University Law School 471 West Palmer St. Detroit, MI 48202 l...@wayne.edumailto:l...@wayne.edu (313) 577-4046 (phone) (313) 577-9016 (fax) Website—http://law.wayne.edu/profile/christopher.lund/ Papers—http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=363402 From: Len campquest...@comcast.netmailto:campquest...@comcast.net To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edumailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 5:31:33 AM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Isn't there a significant difference between placing a religious monument in a public park vs placing a religious monument in a State capitol building? From: Steven Jamar stevenja...@gmail.commailto:stevenja...@gmail.com To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edumailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Cc: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edumailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 9:46:54 PM Subject: Re: Satanists want statue beside Ten Commandments monument at Oklahoma Legislature Sunnum handles this, no? Sent from Steve's iPhone ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
