Re: !RE: FW: Feature films on church and state
Luther, starring Joseph Fiennes, is yet another great film on Church and State. We watched it this weekend at our house, and I heartily recommend it. Cheers, Rick DuncanRick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902"When the Round Table is broken every man must follow either Galahad or Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand Miracle"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered." --The Prisoner Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: !RE: FW: Feature films on church and state
At 10:52 AM 8/12/05 -0700, you wrote: By the way, if any of you are interested in buying The Believers episode of Bablon 5 by itself, it is available cheap in VHS on Half.com. See http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=2042064pr=3286150here. By the way, I get no royalties for sales of Bab 5 episodes. If you haven't seen the Babylon 5 series, you are missing one of the great sci fi tv series of all time. I know Star Trek has its loyal fans, but IMHO Babylon 5 is better by far. But I have to admit, I almost retch every time them talk about Earth Gov (i.e. one world government) on the show. Some of us like to call Homeland Security the Night Watch. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 8/12/05 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
!RE: FW: Feature films on church and state
LAW SCHOOL IS JUST NOT WHAT IT USED TO BE. We never got to watch movies in class! Marc Stern From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 1:05 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: FW: Feature films on church and state There is a fantastic episode of the Babylon 5 television series called The Believers which I use as an introduction to Free Exercise in my Religion and the Constitution class. It is available on this DVD of the First Season of Babylon 5. The episode concerns an alien family that comes to the Earth Space Station (Babylon 5) seeking non-surgical medical treatment for their beloved son. The Earthgovernment doctor performs surgery on their son to save his life, even though this is contrary to the sincerely held religious beliefs of the alien parents. The results are tragic. Absolutely fantastic introduction to Free Exercise. The students loved it! Rick Duncan Douglas Laycock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone have a good ideaon this query from my librarian: Doug, are you aware of any movies dealing with separation of church and state? I can't think of anything but Inherit the Wind,The Courageous Mr. Penn,Hitchcock's I Confess (sanctity of the confessional), and A Man for all Seasons. Douglas Laycock University of Texas Law School 727 E. Dean Keeton St. Austin, TX 78705 512-232-1341 (phone) 512-471-6988 (fax) ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 When the Round Table is broken every man must follow either Galahad or Mordred: middle things are gone. C.S.Lewis, Grand Miracle I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. --The Prisoner __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: !RE: FW: Feature films on church and state
Actually, Sandy, I don't think I ever said how I would decide the case from the Babylon 5 episode. I did note that I thought the State had a compelling interest to protect life, but I also noted that most religious folk--not just delusional aliens "born of the egg"--believe that some things are worse than death. If the State required me to deny God or face execution, I certainly hope I would be a man for all seasons and refuse to renounce God. Is this delusional? I suppose if God does not exist it is; but I believe God does exist;indeed, I am more certain of His existence than I am of my own. Suppose the State said it would execute my child unless I denied God? What should I do? Of course, my favorite movie of all time is Braveheart, and I still cry every time Iwatch that last scene in which hechooses todefy tyranny and die screaming "FDOMM" with his last breath. Not a bad way to die; it sure beats slowly losing a battle with cancer. Live free or die, as they say in New Hampshire. The problem with the State second-guessing parental choices concerning the religious upbringing of their children is that it necessarily involves the State taking a position that the parents religion is untrue. If we believed that surgery would cause our child to lose his soul, we would prefer the child die rather than lose his soul (the thing that makes him a person, a child of God). No?So when we act as government officials to overrule that parental choice, we are saying "your religious beliefs are delusional and we don't respect them." Religious liberty means allowing people the liberty to conduct themselves as if their religious beliefs were true. Today, the State comes to perform lifesaving surgery on A's child. Tomorrow, it may come to remove my children from home school and place them in public school. Even though I recognize the state's compelling interest to save a life by requiring the surgery onA's child, I am uneasy about it. RickSanford Levinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reading Rick's response to Mark, I wonder if Rick places any epistemological limits on parental concerns for the souls of their children. I assume that anyone on this list can conjure up a suitably exotic group that believes in, say, Venusian gods who communicate their commands from spaceships. I hesitate to believe that Rick would give such parents--who want to refuse medical treatment to save their child because the Venusian god has (seemingly) commanded otherwise, at the cost of the child's immortal soul--the same deference as, say, Jehovah's Witnesses (if it is true that he would allow JW parents to reject transfusions). Is Rick so much a relativist that he refuses to countenance the very possibility of "delusional views" so long as the parents are "loving" and sincerely concerned with the immortal welfare of their children? DoesRick real! ly believe that children are under the absolute sovereignty of parents (who view themsleves as bound to a divine sovereign) and not at all subject to the sovereignty of the state? sandy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Friday, August 12, 2005 3:29 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Re: !RE: FW: Feature films on church and state Mark Tushnet writes: I read the summary Rick directed us to, and I'm a bit puzzled. The doctor intervened in a situation where (the summary says) "there are only two options--surgery or death." As a result of the intervention, the alien boy's physical life is preserved, but in the end his parents kill him because, as they put it, "This was not our son. This was only a shell. There was nothing to do but end the pain of the shell." What I'm puzzled about is why Rick describes this outcome as a disaster. It turns out that the (physical) outcome was death either way. And that death resulted from the parents' acting on their beliefs at least as much as from the surgeon's intervention. I suppose this might be described as a disaster if one shared the parents' religious beliefs -- but, because they are entirely fictional, I don't see how anyone could. It would be different if some obviously bad consequences occurred by means other than the parents' choices. One could describe the episode, as summarized, as about free will and determinism, or about the bad consequences of religious fanaticism. (One thing it's not about is the bad consequences of government intervention, because the surgeon refuses to comply with the government representative's direction not to perform the surgery.) I think I said the resultswere "tragic" not a "disaster." The actual episode is a bit more complicated than the summary. The doctor is the government--he is the medical director of the government space station. True, he ignores the instructions of the Commander in charge of the space station, but this still represents government acti
Re: FW: Feature films on church and state
In a message dated 8/11/2005 8:49:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone have a good ideaon this query from my librarian: Doug, are you aware of any movies dealing with separation of church and state? I can't think of anything but Inherit the Wind,The Courageous Mr. Penn,Hitchcock's I Confess (sanctity of the confessional), and A Man for all Seasons. How about The Handmaid's Tale (1990). Or, Star Trek - Deep Space Nine, Episode 20: In the Hands of the Prophets (1993). Or, for comic relief, Dragnet (1987), starring Tom Hanks and Dan Aykroyd. Allen Asch ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: FW: Feature films on church and state
There are scenes from various movies that are relevant to church-state issues. For example, with regard to the recent discussion on the list of the role of military chaplains, there is a scene from one of the great old James Cagney war movies (I'm pretty sure it's called something like The Fighting Sixty-Ninth. ) A Catholic Priest is ministering to the wounded during a lull in combat. He comes upon a Jewish soldier who asks him to pray with him. The Priest asks if he would like him to find someone of his own faith to pray with him. The soldier says No time. While dying, the soldier recites the Sh'ma in English. The Priest recites it back to him in Hebrew. I suppose some would find the scene trite and almost maudlin today. For those old timers who prefer some of the themes of older movies to what passes for entertainment today, it is a pretty good scene. And it communicates something about military Chaplains in a religiously diverse society. Alan Brownstein UC Davis At 10:48 AM 8/11/2005 -0500, you wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01C59E8C.228377A3 Anyone have a good idea on this query from my librarian: Doug, are you aware of any movies dealing with separation of church and state?I can't think of anything but Inherit the Wind, The Courageous Mr. Penn, Hitchcock's I Confess (sanctity of the confessional), and A Man for all Seasons. Douglas Laycock University of Texas Law School 727 E. Dean Keeton St. Austin, TX 78705 512-232-1341 (phone) 512-471-6988 (fax) ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: FW: Feature films on church and state
The Crucible perhaps. Frances R. A. Paterson, J.D., Ed.D. Associate Professor Department of Educational Leadership Valdosta State University Valdosta, GA 31698 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
