RE: Ireland Charities Act 2009: Regulating the Sale of Catholic'Mass Cards'
Does not US v Ballard (US 1944) state the applicable rule-which is (unsurprisingly) the rule Doug proposed? Marc Stern From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Douglas Laycock Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:30 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: RE: Ireland Charities Act 2009: Regulating the Sale of Catholic'Mass Cards' Both these and the kosher laws address a species of fraud. But the fraud must be defined in a way that does not require a) government resolution of a religious question, or b) government designation of a preferred authority to resolve the religious question or act for the religion. The fact that is mispresented must be a secular fact, verifiable as true or false in this world. Quoting Eric Rassbach erassb...@becketfund.org: What if the law specified that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was purported to be a Mass intended to be celebrated in the Church? Would not then the offence simply be a species of fraud, i.e. the shop claimed to be selling the right to have a Mass offered in the Church but it was instead not to be offered in the Church? And would Irish law already ban such fraudulent activity, thereby rendering the law superfluous? None of this would affect Art's separate point about the unconstitutionality of the apparent presumption of guilt. I must say that there seems to be a bit of trend in Ireland right now with legislation that purports to protect religious freedom but actually harms it (cf. the recent blasphemy law, which surely violates the ECHR). Eric PS Máiréad -- as you can see, the members of this list will opine on this sort of thing for fun -- and for free -- with very little provocation! From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Douglas Laycock [layco...@umich.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:48 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Ireland Charities Act 2009: Regulating the Sale of Catholic'Mass Cards' Unconstitutional. There is an analogous line of US cases on the sale of food labeled as kosher but not kosher in accordance with government standards. All struck down. If there's a fraud problem, the government can require the label to say who certified the food as kosher. That is a question that can be answered in this world. But government can't decide for itself what counts as kosher, or designate a particular rabbi or association as the only approved certifying agent. The sale of Mass cards sounds like the same problem. The state could require disclosure of who authorized the Mass card. Or a disclosure of whether and how the priest who signed the Mass card will be informed of the sale and of who purchased the card. Those are verifiable facts. But the state can't decide that only a bishop or a head of an order can authorize the sale of Mass cards. That's a matter of internal church governance. Quoting Mairead Enright maireadenri...@gmail.com: Dear All, A colleague and I hoping to write a short article on s. 99 of the Irish Charities Act, 2009 ( http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2009/a0609.pdf). The section regulates the sale of Catholic Mass cards. A Mass card is a greeting card given to someone to let them know that they, or a deceased loved-one, will be remembered and prayed for by a priest during a Catholic Mass. The person who purchases the card makes a donation to the church in exchange for the Mass and Mass cards are a significant source of revenue to Irish churches. Ordinarily, the card is signed by the priest who will say the Mass, at the time that the Mass is requested. However, in recent years, controversy has arisen regarding the sale of pre-signed Mass cards in ordinary shops ( http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0307/1224242428583.html). Section 99 of the new Charities Act provides that a person who sells a Mass card ?other than pursuant to arrangement with a recognised person? is guilty of a criminal offence. A ?recognised person? is defined as a bishop of the church, or the head of an order recognised by it. In any proceedings it will be presumed, unless proved to the contrary, that an offence has been committed. We were wondering whether one of the subscribers to this list might be willing - for fun - to venture an opinion on what the position of this section might be under U.S. constitutional law. Information on analogous U.S. cases would also be useful. A former Irish Attorney General has suggested that the legislation falls foul of the Irish constitution because (1) it is disproportionate to the aim sought to be achieved and (2) it represents a serious interference with the religious practice of some priests and others
RE: Ireland Charities Act 2009: Regulating the Sale of Catholic'Mass Cards'
Sorry, my earlier post was not clear - by Church in quotation marks I meant the defined term in the statute, not the word Church on the card. I agree completely with Doug and Marc. My point was only that if the Mass card said e.g. that a mass had been arranged to be said in a Roman Catholic church under the authority of Diarmuid Martin, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, then it would be fraudulent to sell a card where that act had in fact not been arranged. I think that would be a secular fact that a court could decide or not decide, and adjusting the proposed law in that way would render it constitutional under US law. But I think there is a far easier solution - if this really is a widespread problem, the RC Church in Ireland should just require all mass cards issued by it to bear the Catholic equivalent of a hechsher. From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Marc Stern Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 10:04 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Ireland Charities Act 2009: Regulating the Sale of Catholic'Mass Cards' Does not US v Ballard (US 1944) state the applicable rule-which is (unsurprisingly) the rule Doug proposed? Marc Stern From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Douglas Laycock Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:30 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: RE: Ireland Charities Act 2009: Regulating the Sale of Catholic'Mass Cards' Both these and the kosher laws address a species of fraud. But the fraud must be defined in a way that does not require a) government resolution of a religious question, or b) government designation of a preferred authority to resolve the religious question or act for the religion. The fact that is mispresented must be a secular fact, verifiable as true or false in this world. Quoting Eric Rassbach erassb...@becketfund.org: What if the law specified that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was purported to be a Mass intended to be celebrated in the Church? Would not then the offence simply be a species of fraud, i.e. the shop claimed to be selling the right to have a Mass offered in the Church but it was instead not to be offered in the Church? And would Irish law already ban such fraudulent activity, thereby rendering the law superfluous? None of this would affect Art's separate point about the unconstitutionality of the apparent presumption of guilt. I must say that there seems to be a bit of trend in Ireland right now with legislation that purports to protect religious freedom but actually harms it (cf. the recent blasphemy law, which surely violates the ECHR). Eric PS Máiréad -- as you can see, the members of this list will opine on this sort of thing for fun -- and for free -- with very little provocation! From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Douglas Laycock [layco...@umich.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:48 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Ireland Charities Act 2009: Regulating the Sale of Catholic'Mass Cards' Unconstitutional. There is an analogous line of US cases on the sale of food labeled as kosher but not kosher in accordance with government standards. All struck down. If there's a fraud problem, the government can require the label to say who certified the food as kosher. That is a question that can be answered in this world. But government can't decide for itself what counts as kosher, or designate a particular rabbi or association as the only approved certifying agent. The sale of Mass cards sounds like the same problem. The state could require disclosure of who authorized the Mass card. Or a disclosure of whether and how the priest who signed the Mass card will be informed of the sale and of who purchased the card. Those are verifiable facts. But the state can't decide that only a bishop or a head of an order can authorize the sale of Mass cards. That's a matter of internal church governance. Quoting Mairead Enright maireadenri...@gmail.com: Dear All, A colleague and I hoping to write a short article on s. 99 of the Irish Charities Act, 2009 ( http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2009/a0609.pdf). The section regulates the sale of Catholic Mass cards. A Mass card is a greeting card given to someone to let them know that they, or a deceased loved-one, will be remembered and prayed for by a priest during a Catholic Mass. The person who purchases the card makes a donation to the church in exchange for the Mass and Mass cards are a significant source of revenue to Irish churches. Ordinarily, the card is signed by the priest who will say the Mass, at the time that the Mass is requested. However, in recent years, controversy has arisen regarding the sale
