date:20100104

Heliax for the transmission line. Superflex heliax for jumpers. RG-400 (not 
LMR-400, there is a huge difference) can be used for short jumper runs. RG-400 
has a brown Teflon jacket and two layers of silver-plated braid. There are 
other cables that are acceptable, but these are my favorites.

Chuck
WB2EDV


  - Original Message - 
  From: Michael H. Cox 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 12:41 AM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Mastr II mods and parts




  What cable do you guys recommend?
  Thanks,

  Michael H. Cox
  michaelh...@gmail.com

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Mastr II mods and parts

In case you haven't been to this site, there is more reading than you can shake 
a stick at regarding repeaters:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/


Chuck
WB2EDV
  - Original Message - 
  From: Michael H. Cox 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 12:41 AM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Mastr II mods and parts




  What cable do you guys recommend?
  Thanks,

  Michael H. Cox
  michaelh...@gmail.com

[Repeater-Builder] Flat pack mobile duplexers

2010-01-04 Thread tait700

Hello,

Was wondering if anyone happened to know whether there was a general rule of 
thumb regarding the minimum frequency seperation required between the high side 
and low side frequencies when retunning these for the 800 - 900mhz section of 
the band.
The manufacturer has long since left the scene and the duplexer still functions 
reasonably well on its current split but i was wondering if there was some hard 
and fast rule before i contemplated sending it in for a retune to a new set of 
frequencies.
All replies gratefully received.

regards,

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Mastr II mods and parts

2010-01-04 Thread no6b

At 1/3/2010 21:54, you wrote:
For connection between duplexer and radios I like 1/4 Superflex, but 
RG400 or RG142 is also great.  To a duplex antenna for short runs those 
same cables could be used, keeping loss figures in mind.  Otherwise 
appropriately sized Heliax or equivalent cables should be used.

RG214 is the best choice for hardline-to-antenna jumpers.  I also use is 
for the duplexer-to-radio cables unless I need more flexibility, in which 
case I use RG223.

Bob NO6B

[Repeater-Builder] Re: Motorola MSR 2000 parts needed.

2010-01-04 Thread Wayne

Check your email. I sent you a reply direct.

73
Wayne, wa5luy

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, kc7stw kc7...@... wrote:

 Hello all in the group.
 
 I am looking to build as close to a factory MSR 2000 repeater station as I 
 can.  I am looking for some cards. 
 
 1) Squelch gate,
 1) CW IDer card. (just want it for the card and black face)
 
 any other cards that can be used for the fun of it.  PL or DPL cards for TX 
 and RX of PL/DPL or reeds 141.3 or ???
 
 I have items for the MSR 2000 that I will trade, or cash.
 
 1) 100 watt full duty PA VHF
 1) RX board with element VHF
 1) TX board with element
 2) Intercom cards
 2) Station control
 2) R1 Audio
 2) Line driver
 1) repeater station with out power supply. (DC only version) in the 19inch 
 case. 
 
 Thanks for any help.  Just a side project of mine.
 Contact off list at kc7...@...
 -Jason

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Flat pack mobile duplexers

2010-01-04 Thread MICHAEL GARBER



 
MICHAEL L. GARBER
1410 WAREHIME RD.
WESTMINSTER, M.D. 21158
(  N3KTX ) 443-604-8133
  





From: tait700 cscan...@tpg.com.au
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 8:42:51 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Flat pack mobile duplexers

  
Hello,

Was wondering if anyone happened to know whether there was a general rule of 
thumb regarding the minimum frequency seperation required between the high side 
and low side frequencies when retunning these for the 800 - 900mhz section of 
the band.
The manufacturer has long since left the scene and the duplexer still functions 
reasonably well on its current split but i was wondering if there was some hard 
and fast rule before i contemplated sending it in for a retune to a new set of 
frequencies.
All replies gratefully received.

regards,

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

Chuck Kelsey wrote:
 Yes, it said that in the article. However, the article went on to say
 that some of the ham dealers sold it for duplex service all the time,
 so the writer concluded (somehow) that it was OK to use. Go figure.
 
 Chuck WB2EDV

Yeah-an ARRL staff writer wrote that? No wonder!

 - Original Message - From: AJ To:
 Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 2:17
 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts
 
 
 
 
 Didn't the CEO or someone of similar heft at Times Microwave have a
 letter in QST a while back stating the entire LMR series wasn't
 designed for PIM performance, referring potential repeater-use
 customers to their line of low-PIM cables?
 
 No luck on a wildcard search on the ARRL site... Go figure.
 
 
 On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 At least when it starts causing noise, you'll know where to look. It
 may take a while, or it could happen pretty soon. Like with anything,
 some people have managed to dodge the bullet for quite some time.
 I've seen nothing official that says the problem was resolved.
 
 Chuck WB2EDV

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

Correct. And the vendors in question are likely advertisers in QST whom they 
don't want to offend.

Chuck

- Original Message - 
From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

 Chuck Kelsey wrote:
 Yes, it said that in the article. However, the article went on to say
 that some of the ham dealers sold it for duplex service all the time,
 so the writer concluded (somehow) that it was OK to use. Go figure.

 Chuck WB2EDV

 Yeah-an ARRL staff writer wrote that? No wonder!

 - Original Message - From: AJ To:
 Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 2:17
 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

 Didn't the CEO or someone of similar heft at Times Microwave have a
 letter in QST a while back stating the entire LMR series wasn't
 designed for PIM performance, referring potential repeater-use
 customers to their line of low-PIM cables?

 No luck on a wildcard search on the ARRL site... Go figure.

 On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com
 wrote:

 At least when it starts causing noise, you'll know where to look. It
 may take a while, or it could happen pretty soon. Like with anything,
 some people have managed to dodge the bullet for quite some time.
 I've seen nothing official that says the problem was resolved.

 Chuck WB2EDV

 Yahoo! Groups Links

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 
03:24:00

[Repeater-Builder] 73 Magazine Archivers

2010-01-04 Thread dcflux

Does anyone have an archive of 73? If so I am hoping to get scanned from the 
October 1980 edition A Computer-Controlled Talking Repeater - Part I: 
Introduction by Ed Ingber, WA6AXX  starting on page 124.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

Michael Cox wrote:

 Controller - I recommend a NHRC model that plugs into the Systems board,
 or, one of the Pion  Simon models that plug into the card cage.

 http://www.nhrc.net/ge-stuff.php
 http://www.pionsimon.com/products.htm

 
 
 It looks like I can use the NHRC-4/M2 to make it a linked repeater.  If I go
 with the Ham repeater, I'll most likely do that.  That would require, if I
 understand correctly, another radio connected in, so that will have to be
 done later with future funds. :)
 
 If I decide to make it a GMRS repeater, I won't have to worry about that and
 will go with the PSE508-2, as its a little less expensive.

For GMRS, I would go with the -3 version to get the extra tones. It 
gives you 4 users. While they can't talk at the same time (obviously), 
a user with one tone won't hear the other users unless he takes his mic 
off-hook, putting the rx in carrier squelch. (and in commercial 
service, it is required for users to not interfere with other users on a 
'shared' frequency (GMRS is ALWAYS shared with others). This is most 
easily accomplished by putting the rx in carrier squelch when the mic is 
taken off the clip to talk. The user then knows not to talk if someone 
else is already talking.
Anyway, you can have 4 different groups of people with the -3 version. 
Not bad.

[Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Mixer for multiple repeaters

2010-01-04 Thread skipp025

 Paul Plack pl...@... wrote:
 Given the fact that a voter still requires an outboard 
 repeater controller for other needed functions, and is 
 designed to select a receiver based on S/N ratio rather 
 than a preset hierarchy, would it really be a good choice 
 for this application?

The voter doesn't require an external controller. It's 
just very nice to have one. There is enough logic and 
control present on the rear panel of the LDG Voter that 
one could easily setup a hierarchy. 

 A new LDG voter lists for $319 and still requires a 
 separate controller. If all three receivers go active 
 at once, it will wander between three possibly unrelated 
 conversations based on momentary changes in S/N ratio.

Good point, a choice would have to be made... are all the 
repeaters going to remain tied into one operation?  ... or 
will the repeaters be operated autonomous and require 
separate audio and logic bus. 

 An SCOM 7330 is a controller with three receiver ports 
 for $459, can be set to give each receiver a predetermined 
 (and remotely modifiable) priority independent of S/N ratio, 
 and would allow the three repeaters to operate independently 
 or linked in any combination.

Or a single port repeater controller can be used with boxes 
like the CAT Auto RBS-1000B unit. 

 Don't get me wrong, I've drawn up some real kluges in my 
 day, but a voter as an audio mixer seems odd even to me.
 73,
 Paul, AE4KR

Not if the repeater is a constant multiple band, multiple 
repeater set up. It would allow an older single port repeater 
controller to do much more. If you need independent operation 
then some type of a matrix switch will have to be used and 
those are mostly inside some of the newer repeater controllers.  

cheers, 
s. 


   - Original Message - 
   From: skipp025 
   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
   Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:17 AM
   Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Mixer for multiple repeaters
 
 
 
 
 
   Each of the repeater receivers would provide audio and 
   a cor logic to one of the eight LDG Voter inputs. You 
   might consider the cor logic being a valid CTCSS (PL) 
   detection, the carrier squelch COR logic or an AND 
   version of both. 
 
   There are logic enable lines on the Voter so you can 
   turn off unwanted receivers with your external repeater 
   controller output control lines. 
 
   The output of the voter is one audio and ptt logic 
   function, you'd have to make a simple distribution line 
   driver amp for each repeater transmitter. You could 
   also enable all the transmitters through simple logic 
   we could talk you through building. To disable a repeater 
   Transmit you'd simply supply the same receiver logic 
   control line to disable that one transmitter. It's 
   not that hard to build if you buy the voter. 
 
   s. 
 
Gilles Violette adjiqc@ wrote:
Hi Skipp025,
How would this handle the core and the PTT audio 
and would it be easy to match the impedance from 
all the repeaters ?
Thanks for the info.

GVÂ 
 
From: skipp025 skipp025@
Subject: Audio Mixer for multiple repeaters
Re: Audio Mixer for multiple repeaters 
I know it wouldn't at first glance be considered a mixer... 
but using an LDG Voter as a mixer (and voter) works out 
very well. 
http://www.ldgelect ronics.com/ c/252/products/ 5/19/1 
If you don't need as many inputs, consider the CAT Auto 
RLS-1000B. 
http://www.catauto. com/rls1000. html 
And of course many repeater controllers are multi-port 
boxes. 
s. 

 adjiqc adjiqc@ wrote:
 We are a club looking for an audio mixer that can mix up to 3 or 4 
 repeaters with different impedance, we are hooking up 3 different repeaters 
 together. We built an homemade audio mixer but not very stable , we hope to 
 find something solid and well shielded because there are lots of interference 
 at that specific site. 
 
 Any ideas where we could get such thing pre built or built ?
 
 Thank you

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

2010-01-04 Thread Kevin Custer

Michael Cox wrote:

Will this Duplexer work with the Mastr II repeater?

http://cgi.ebay.com/UHF-50W-6-CAVITY-DUPLEXER-FOR-REPEATER-FREE-TUNING
http://cgi.ebay.com/UHF-50W-6-CAVITY-DUPLEXER-FOR-REPEATER-FREE-TUNING_W0QQitemZ350300447727QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518f88a3ef

Sure, it would work. It's a six cavity unit capable of providing enough
isolation for desense free operation with a receiver of -116 dBm and a
50 watt transmitter at a 5 MHz TX to RX spacing - as long as you aren't
in a crowded RF environment.

Would I recommend it? - absolutely not. As I and others have
mentioned, a BpBr design, (like the WP-678 I referenced in an earlier
mailing) would be a much better choice. Why? You'll likely buy a 100
watt PA to go along with your recent repeater purchase, and likely some
day you'll want to add a receiver preamp for hearing the real weak
ones The duplexer must provide enough RF isolation so the receiver
can hear a very weak signal, while, at the same instant, putting out
several watts from the transmitter so people can hear it. Look at it
this way, let's say you are listening for a pin to drop on a cushioned
floor while someone is shouting into your ear. The duplexer allows you
to 'tune out' the person shouting - giving you the ability to hear the
pin drop. This can only happen because the transmitter and receiver are
on two distinctively separate frequencies and the duplexer is optimized
for those exact frequencies.

There are places to save money where building a repeater is concerned.
The duplexer is not one of them. This doesn't mean you can't save money
- you can. The $250.00 WP-678 I spoke of in an earlier mailing was
about $800 to $1000 new. I'm recommending you buy $800.00 technology
not $79.00 technology.

Kevin Custer

Re: [Repeater-Builder] 73 Magazine Archivers

2010-01-04 Thread Kevin Custer

AA8K73 GMail wrote:
 Here is an attached scan, 2.59 MB.

 Wow, an IMSAI for development.
 That brings back memories.


 Mike - AA8K

I remember reading it the first time around.  It was the work which 
eventually evolved into the Advanced Computer Controls (ACC) RC-850.

Fun reading...  Thanks Mike.

Kevin Custer

[Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Hey guys,
I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good
to do it.
I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons.  In
looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a
verizon phone line.
Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven
relyability.

Thanks,
Jed

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Boy, where to begin.

First, I'd check with the insurance carrier regarding your proposal to 
locate dispatch in a private home. I can see all sorts of snarled lawsuits 
when something goes wrong. Maybe someone loosing their home in the suit as 
well.

From a technical standpoint, you need redundancy. If you are bent on using 
the Internet, make sure you also have a backup path, like some type of RF 
system. Can you afford to not be able to dispatch for hours when the 
Internet goes down because a car crashed into a pole, taking the lines down 
that were your Internet connection, and the occupants are bleeding to death, 
but the dispatcher can't dispatch the call?

I'll stop here.

Chuck
WB2EDV




- Original Message - 
From: Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com
To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:03 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet


 Hey guys,
 I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
 Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
 dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
 This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be 
 good
 to do it.
 I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
 This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons.  In
 looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to 
 a
 verizon phone line.
 Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
 For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven
 relyability.

 Thanks,
 Jed



 



 Yahoo! Groups Links









No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 
03:24:00

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Chris Robinson

check out the IP-223. it may fit your needs.
http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote:



 Hey guys,
 I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
 Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
 dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
 This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be
 good
 to do it.
 I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
 This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In
 looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a
 verizon phone line.
 Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
 For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven
 relyability.

 Thanks,
 Jed

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

2010-01-04 Thread Michael H. Cox

Ok.  Thanks.  As I'm sure everyone does, trying to do this as cheap as 
possible.  I was hoping it would be good, but won't so I won't get it.   
Thanks,

Michael H. Cox
michaelh...@gmail.com

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Custer kug...@kuggie.com
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:27:02 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

Michael Cox wrote:

 Will this Duplexer work with the Mastr II repeater?

 http://cgi.ebay.com/UHF-50W-6-CAVITY-DUPLEXER-FOR-REPEATER-FREE-TUNING 
 http://cgi.ebay.com/UHF-50W-6-CAVITY-DUPLEXER-FOR-REPEATER-FREE-TUNING_W0QQitemZ350300447727QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518f88a3ef

Sure, it would work.  It's a six cavity unit capable of providing enough 
isolation for desense free operation with a receiver of -116 dBm and a 
50 watt transmitter at a 5 MHz TX to RX spacing - as long as you aren't 
in a crowded RF environment.

Would I recommend it? - absolutely not.   As I and others have 
mentioned, a BpBr design, (like the WP-678 I referenced in an earlier 
mailing) would be a much better choice.  Why?  You'll likely buy a 100 
watt PA to go along with your recent repeater purchase, and likely some 
day you'll want to add a receiver preamp for hearing the real weak 
ones  The duplexer must provide enough RF isolation so the receiver 
can hear a very weak signal, while, at the same instant, putting out 
several watts from the transmitter so people can hear it.  Look at it 
this way, let's say you are listening for a pin to drop on a cushioned  
floor while someone is shouting into your ear.  The duplexer allows you 
to 'tune out' the person shouting - giving you the ability to hear the 
pin drop.  This can only happen because the transmitter and receiver are 
on two distinctively separate frequencies and the duplexer is optimized 
for those exact frequencies. 

There are places to save money where building a repeater is concerned.  
The duplexer is not one of them.  This doesn't mean you can't save money 
- you can.  The $250.00 WP-678 I spoke of in an earlier mailing was 
about $800 to $1000 new.  I'm recommending you buy $800.00 technology 
not $79.00 technology.

Kevin Custer

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Rick Szajkowski

IRLP.net

Talk to Dave C.

Dave has some systems like you are thinking of doing .  its a private IRLP
system

what I hear it works very well

Rick

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Chris Robinson kf6...@gmail.com wrote:



 check out the IP-223. it may fit your needs.
 http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf


 On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote:



 Hey guys,
 I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
 Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
 dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
 This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be
 good
 to do it.
 I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
 This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In
 looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to
 a
 verizon phone line.
 Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
 For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven
 relyability.

 Thanks,
 Jed

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the 
Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN.

Chuck
WB2EDV

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chris Robinson 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

  check out the IP-223. it may fit your 
needs.http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf

  On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote:

Hey guys,
I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good
to do it.
I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In
looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a
verizon phone line.
Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven
relyability.

Thanks,
Jed

--

  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
  Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 
03:24:00

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Chris Quirk

So you would route and forward 911 calls to someones house?
 
Are we talking about controling the radio and the console or just the console ? 
 
Does the radio interface to the console ? ( BTW I assume this is an onscreen 
console or virtual console not a real nuts and bolts thing which makes it a 
little more interesting)
 
How far is the dispatch center from the offsite employee?
 
What is your strategy for fall over when the net goes down ? 
 
ROIP is doable, but to have it bullet proof and secure it is not cheap and the 
words T1 come to mind
 
Another group I work with who knows more I will let you know who they are 
outside of the list.
 
The other way is to use a remote application like BOMGAR and go in and control 
the virtual dispatch console, you then use a radio at the employees house to 
dispatch calls and take care of radio traffic (repeaters enable this well). The 
911 calls are forewarded from the real or virtual phone switch so they can 
still be recorded and logged. They forward to a land line rather than a cell 
phone.
 
Many years ago we used to port the 911 calls into the radio system and if the 
dispatcher did not pick up for some reason the local fire house was aware of 
the call and would start roilling. .The local fire house could patch into the 
phone via a hard phone line and talk to the caller by conferecing into the 
call. All lines were secure within the phone network so an outsider could not 
intercept the phone call once the coneection was made.The incident report would 
contain the information required so nothing was lost, this goes back a long 
ways though and I have no idea what the legal in and out of this would be from 
a security and confidentiality issue. 
 
Worth while project just make sure the ability to make this work at muliple 
locations is possible. Would not want to favor one employee over another. 


--- On Mon, 1/4/10, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote:


From: Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 1:03 PM


Hey guys,
I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good
to do it.
I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons.  In
looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a
verizon phone line.
Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven
relyability.

Thanks,
Jed







Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Doug Bade


Jed;
There are certainly options to pass 
radio audio and keying over the internet in VOIP 
or equivalent scenarios. I would also mention 
there are several agencies who have regulations 
on how calls are answered and dispatched... Your 
solution would seem to require some approvals if 
involves 911.. A cheap and dirty IP based 
solution may not meet the legal requirements and 
implied service requirements of your municipals 
insurance company. I would think you need to 
verify it is legal to do what you want let alone 
insured... then find a solution that satisfies those parties...


Doug
KD8B





At 04:03 PM 1/4/2010, you wrote:



Hey guys,
I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good
to do it.
I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In
looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a
verizon phone line.
Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven
relyability.

Thanks,
Jed

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

tell me about this system a little bit. 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:25 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the
Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN.

Chuck
WB2EDV

- Original Message - 
From: Chris Robinson mailto:kf6...@gmail.com  
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com  
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
internet

check out the IP-223. it may fit your
needs.http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf
http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com
mailto:j...@jedbarton.com  wrote:

Hey guys,
I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has
done this.
Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD,
where the
dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought
it would be good
to do it.
I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of
reasons. In
looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very
good compared to a
verizon phone line.
Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that
has proven
relyability.

Thanks,
Jed

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date:
01/04/10 03:24:00

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

2010-01-04 Thread Michael Cox

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:29 AM, wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com wrote:



 Michael Cox wrote:

  Controller - I recommend a NHRC model that plugs into the Systems
 board,
  or, one of the Pion  Simon models that plug into the card cage.
 
  http://www.nhrc.net/ge-stuff.php
  http://www.pionsimon.com/products.htm
 
 
 
  It looks like I can use the NHRC-4/M2 to make it a linked repeater. If I
 go
  with the Ham repeater, I'll most likely do that. That would require, if I
  understand correctly, another radio connected in, so that will have to be
  done later with future funds. :)
 
  If I decide to make it a GMRS repeater, I won't have to worry about that
 and
  will go with the PSE508-2, as its a little less expensive.

 For GMRS, I would go with the -3 version to get the extra tones. It
 gives you 4 users. While they can't talk at the same time (obviously),
 a user with one tone won't hear the other users unless he takes his mic
 off-hook, putting the rx in carrier squelch. (and in commercial
 service, it is required for users to not interfere with other users on a
 'shared' frequency (GMRS is ALWAYS shared with others). This is most
 easily accomplished by putting the rx in carrier squelch when the mic is
 taken off the clip to talk. The user then knows not to talk if someone
 else is already talking.
 Anyway, you can have 4 different groups of people with the -3 version.
 Not bad.



So, to make sure I understand correctly, I can program the repeater to use
the same frequency but with 4 different PL tones with this Duplexer?




   Michael H. Cox
 michaelh...@gmail.com

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

the phone system we're thinking of going with is a system called ring
central.
It's a system i am very familiar with, and have a ton of experience with.
Curious if you have done the VOIP thing before in a dispatch environment. 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Bade
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:23 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Jed;
There are certainly options to pass radio audio and keying over the
internet in VOIP or equivalent scenarios. I would also mention there are
several agencies who have regulations on how calls are answered and
dispatched... Your solution would seem to require some approvals if involves
911.. A cheap and dirty IP based solution may not meet the legal
requirements and implied service requirements of your municipals insurance
company. I would think you need to verify it is legal to do what you want
let alone insured... then find a solution that satisfies those parties...

Doug
KD8B

At 04:03 PM 1/4/2010, you wrote:

Hey guys,
I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would
be good
to do it.
I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In
looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good
compared to a
verizon phone line.
Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has
proven
relyability.

Thanks,
Jed

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

We've got a backup plan in place already, not to worry.  I already factored
that in. 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:18 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Boy, where to begin.

First, I'd check with the insurance carrier regarding your proposal to
locate dispatch in a private home. I can see all sorts of snarled lawsuits
when something goes wrong. Maybe someone loosing their home in the suit as
well.

From a technical standpoint, you need redundancy. If you are bent on using
the Internet, make sure you also have a backup path, like some type of RF
system. Can you afford to not be able to dispatch for hours when the
Internet goes down because a car crashed into a pole, taking the lines down
that were your Internet connection, and the occupants are bleeding to death,
but the dispatcher can't dispatch the call?

I'll stop here.

Chuck
WB2EDV

- Original Message -
From: Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com mailto:jed%40jedbarton.com 
To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
mailto:repeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:03 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

 Hey guys,
 I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
 Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the 
 dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
 This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would 
 be good to do it.
 I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
 This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In 
 looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared 
 to a verizon phone line.
 Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
 For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has 
 proven relyability.

 Thanks,
 Jed

 Yahoo! Groups Links

--

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10
03:24:00

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Security is also a big issue with trying to use the internet for
something like this. Anyone with a little knowledge can hack into it and
do whatever.

Chuck Kelsey wrote:
 You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize
 the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private
 LAN/WAN.
 
 Chuck WB2EDV
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Chris Robinson To:
 Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:15
 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
 internet
 
 
 
 
 check out the IP-223. it may fit your
 needs.http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf
 
 
 On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote:
 
 
 
 Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has
 done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD,
 where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This
 is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be
 good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be
 done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of
 reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very
 good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done
 something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a
 virtual phone system that has proven relyability.
 
 Thanks, Jed
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 
 
 
 
 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date:
 01/04/10 03:24:00

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

Michael Cox wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:29 AM, wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com wrote:
 

 Michael Cox wrote:

 Controller - I recommend a NHRC model that plugs into the Systems
 board,
 or, one of the Pion  Simon models that plug into the card cage.

 http://www.nhrc.net/ge-stuff.php
 http://www.pionsimon.com/products.htm


 It looks like I can use the NHRC-4/M2 to make it a linked repeater. If I
 go
 with the Ham repeater, I'll most likely do that. That would require, if I
 understand correctly, another radio connected in, so that will have to be
 done later with future funds. :)

 If I decide to make it a GMRS repeater, I won't have to worry about that
 and
 will go with the PSE508-2, as its a little less expensive.

 For GMRS, I would go with the -3 version to get the extra tones. It
 gives you 4 users. While they can't talk at the same time (obviously),
 a user with one tone won't hear the other users unless he takes his mic
 off-hook, putting the rx in carrier squelch. (and in commercial
 service, it is required for users to not interfere with other users on a
 'shared' frequency (GMRS is ALWAYS shared with others). This is most
 easily accomplished by putting the rx in carrier squelch when the mic is
 taken off the clip to talk. The user then knows not to talk if someone
 else is already talking.
 Anyway, you can have 4 different groups of people with the -3 version.
 Not bad.

 
 
 So, to make sure I understand correctly, I can program the repeater to use
 the same frequency but with 4 different PL tones with this Duplexer?

Duplexer? Nope, didn't say anything about a duplexer. You mentioned 
using the PSE508-2 controller (which does one tone), and I suggested 
using the -3 version instead to get the 4 tones.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

2010-01-04 Thread Michael H. Cox

Sorry, that's what I meant.  Is that what this controller will do?
Thanks,

Michael H. Cox
michaelh...@gmail.com

-Original Message-
From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:10:59 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

Michael Cox wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:29 AM, wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com wrote:

 Michael Cox wrote:

 Controller - I recommend a NHRC model that plugs into the Systems
 board,
 or, one of the Pion  Simon models that plug into the card cage.

 http://www.nhrc.net/ge-stuff.php
 http://www.pionsimon.com/products.htm

 It looks like I can use the NHRC-4/M2 to make it a linked repeater. If I
 go
 with the Ham repeater, I'll most likely do that. That would require, if I
 understand correctly, another radio connected in, so that will have to be
 done later with future funds. :)

 If I decide to make it a GMRS repeater, I won't have to worry about that
 and
 will go with the PSE508-2, as its a little less expensive.

 For GMRS, I would go with the -3 version to get the extra tones. It
 gives you 4 users. While they can't talk at the same time (obviously),
 a user with one tone won't hear the other users unless he takes his mic
 off-hook, putting the rx in carrier squelch. (and in commercial
 service, it is required for users to not interfere with other users on a
 'shared' frequency (GMRS is ALWAYS shared with others). This is most
 easily accomplished by putting the rx in carrier squelch when the mic is
 taken off the clip to talk. The user then knows not to talk if someone
 else is already talking.
 Anyway, you can have 4 different groups of people with the -3 version.
 Not bad.

 So, to make sure I understand correctly, I can program the repeater to use
 the same frequency but with 4 different PL tones with this Duplexer?

Duplexer? Nope, didn't say anything about a duplexer. You mentioned 
using the PSE508-2 controller (which does one tone), and I suggested 
using the -3 version instead to get the 4 tones.

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Andrew Seybold

WOW-if anyone thinks that the Internet is a mission critical network, I
don't, it is certainly not a 5-9's reliable network. Secondly I would be
concerned about the PSAP liability-if they hand off a call and it does
not get delivered-if you were my client-which you are not, I would
advise strongly against this approach-I see too many issues, and not
enough benefit.

 

Andy

 

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wd8chl
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:34 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
internet

 

  

Security is also a big issue with trying to use the internet for
something like this. Anyone with a little knowledge can hack into it and
do whatever.

Chuck Kelsey wrote:
 You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize
 the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private
 LAN/WAN.
 
 Chuck WB2EDV
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Chris Robinson To:
 Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com  Sent: Monday, January 04,
2010 4:15
 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
 internet
 
 
 
 
 check out the IP-223. it may fit your
 needs.http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf
 
 
 On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com
mailto:jed%40jedbarton.com  wrote:
 
 
 
 Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has
 done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD,
 where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This
 is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be
 good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be
 done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of
 reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very
 good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done
 something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a
 virtual phone system that has proven relyability.
 
 Thanks, Jed
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 
 
 
 
 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date:
 01/04/10 03:24:00

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Kevin Custer

The Internet is a shared medium.  A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes 
fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 
connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 
(necessarily) THE Internet.  Privately owned facilities like what many 
CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or 
reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead.  
The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do 
not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA 
can be gotten.  A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company 
guarantees connectivity - to some degree.  The more reliability the 
agreement extends - the higher the cost.

Kevin Custer

 Jed Barton wrote:
 tell me about this system a little bit. 
   

 You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the
 Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN.
  
 Chuck
 WB2EDV

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Cort Buffington

Kevin is on the right track. At my day job, I am the CEO of a state research 
data networking -- this stuff is actually what pays the bills to spend time 
with repeaters on the weekends. I'm not sure if the credentials mean anything 
here or not, but FWIW.

If this FD is in a relatively isolated geographic area, as are the dispatchers 
-- like smaller more rural area, then the chance is that the same ISP can be 
used for all of the connections -- so while an ISP is being used, the ISPs own 
network is what's being used, not really the Internet. Such a project could 
be as successful as many other methods for remote dispatch in this case. Just 
make sure that there is some sort of SLA in place. Typically, on-network SLAs 
for the kind of bandwidth this application needs is on the order of a business 
account. Assuming this is really just typical dispatch, it's 1/2 duplex, and 
will be significantly more tolerant of jitter and latency than, say, a 
real-time application.

As for privacy, I know that most any VPN technology (include a great number of 
non-encrypted ones) are considered secure for HIPAA, FERPA, etc., however many 
of them I do not trust. In the end, if securing  data is really important to 
you, never rely on a third-party transport provider to do it. In the end, it's 
going to come back to you and not the transport provider. If this is a 
concern, I would use strong encryption on the data before passing it to the 
transport provider -- such as using encrypted L3-L3 VPN tunnels back to the FD 
head end from each remote.

On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:55 PM, Kevin Custer wrote:

 The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes 
 fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 
 connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 
 (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many 
 CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or 
 reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. 
 The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do 
 not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA 
 can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company 
 guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the 
 agreement extends - the higher the cost.
 
 Kevin Custer
 
  Jed Barton wrote:
  tell me about this system a little bit. 
  
 
  You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the
  Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN.
  
  Chuck
  WB2EDV
 
 

--
Cort Buffington
H: +1-785-838-3034
M: +1-785-865-7206










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Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Yes, and they are called Intranets.  

  - Original Message - 
  From: Kevin Custer 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

  The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes 
  fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 
  connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 
  (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many 
  CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or 
  reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. 
  The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do 
  not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA 
  can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company 
  guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the 
  agreement extends - the higher the cost.

  Kevin Custer

   Jed Barton wrote:
   tell me about this system a little bit. 

   You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the
   Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN.

   Chuck
   WB2EDV

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Randy Ross

Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what 
we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is 
reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy.

My two cents worth.

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Yes, and they are called Intranets.

- Original Message -
From: Kevin Custermailto:kug...@kuggie.com
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.commailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes
fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish
connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not
(necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many
CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or
reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead.
The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do
not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA
can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company
guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the
agreement extends - the higher the cost.

Kevin Custer

 Jed Barton wrote:
 tell me about this system a little bit.

 You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the
 Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN.

 Chuck
 WB2EDV

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Many cities utilize dark fiber provided by the cable companies (the Internet). 
WEBEOC is WEB based, ala the Internet.

Here in Arlington County the County's fiber network is mostly provided by 
Comcast Cable with some County owned fiber. 
Some commercial fiber networks are self-healing and provide better reliability 
than microwave networks used to interconnect 800 P25.

You drive across the USA and you will find every possible type of network 
implementation known to man being utilized by public safety.  I once read about 
a group that hand built from scratch 802.11 access points to construct their 
own little wireless mesh network.  It wouldn't happen in NYC where they have 
more than 10,000 fire and police employees but in a smallish county with 
10-20,000 consituents and very little tax revenues public safety has to make do.

What we would like and what we can afford is two different things.

I just recently read where the State of Georgia was just issued $165,000 Fed. 
Grant to build a D-STAR state wide network.  What a waste of tax dollars.  OH 
yeah, great technology  but how many ham volunteers in the state can afford the 
$600 handheld radios?  I don't think the grant is paying for a handheld for 
every ham in the state where currently 99% who have VHF radios are on analog.  
DUH.

Enjoy,
dave
wa3gin
  - Original Message - 
  From: Randy Ross 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:24 PM
  Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet




  Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do 
what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is 
reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. 



  My two cents worth. 



  From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet





  Yes, and they are called Intranets.  



- Original Message - 

From: Kevin Custer 

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM

Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet



  

The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes 
fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 
connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 
(necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many 
CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or 
reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. 
The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do 
not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA 
can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company 
guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the 
agreement extends - the higher the cost.

Kevin Custer

 Jed Barton wrote:
 tell me about this system a little bit. 
 

 You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the
 Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN.
 
 Chuck
 WB2EDV

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Barry

It's done very day ,a good  vpn and intranet  and very difficult to interfere, 
with short of a direct physical connection there is little better  so I don't 
understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the 
rest is down to the skills of the system admin 
 B
( and yes I have had training in the area)

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
From: rr...@librtynet.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER
designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications
system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
untrustworthy. 

My two cents worth. 

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN

Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
internet

Yes,
and they are called Intranets.  

-
Original Message - 

From: Kevin Custer 

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Monday, January 04,
2010 5:55 PM

Subject: Re:
[Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

The Internet is a shared medium. A private
WAN/LAN commonly utilizes 

fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 

connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 

(necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many 

CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or 

reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. 

The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do 

not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA 

can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company 

guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the 

agreement extends - the higher the cost.

Kevin Custer

 Jed Barton wrote:

 tell me about this system a little bit. 

 You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the

 Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN.

 Chuck

 WB2EDV

_
Looking for a great date? Meet singles at ninemsn dating
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

exactly what i thought.
People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell
of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM
To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

It's done very day ,a good  vpn and intranet  and very difficult to
interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better
so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio
controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin  B ( and
yes I have had training in the area)

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
From: rr...@librtynet.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do
what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which
is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
untrustworthy. 

My two cents worth. 

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Yes, and they are called Intranets.  

- Original Message - 

From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com  

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com  

Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM

Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
internet

The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes

fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 
connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 
(necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what
many 
CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber
or 
reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet
overhead. 
The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot
(do 
not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a
SLA 
can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company

guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the 
agreement extends - the higher the cost.

Kevin Custer

 Jed Barton wrote:
 tell me about this system a little bit. 

 You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you
utilize the
 Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private
LAN/WAN.

 Chuck
 WB2EDV

Meet singles at ninemsn dating Looking for a great date?
http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Chris Robinson

again check out the hardware link I posted earlier. The IP-223 is designed
for commercial use and is very cutting edge as well as versatile. it is
backwards and forward compatible.
 Then again I dont know anything, I only owned a communications company, and
while I truly dont know much about many systems, the IP-223 I am very
familiar with as well as other Telex and Vega hardware.

 I read the OP's question as asking about hardware not the ins and outs of
insurance and such. I dont feel the need in going into areas that arent
asked!

Bah Humbug!

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote:



 exactly what i thought.
 People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell
 of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line.

 -Original Message-
 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com]
 On Behalf Of Barry
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM
 To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

 It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to
 interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little
 better
 so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio
 controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and
 yes I have had training in the area)

 

 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
 From: rr...@librtynet.com rross%40librtynet.com
 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

 Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do
 what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system
 which
 is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
 untrustworthy.

 My two cents worth.

 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com]
 On Behalf Of WA3GIN
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

 Yes, and they are called Intranets.

 - Original Message -

 From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com kuggie%40kuggie.com

 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
 mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com


 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM

 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
 internet





 The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes

 fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish
 connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not
 (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what
 many
 CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber
 or
 reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet
 overhead.
 The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot
 (do
 not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a
 SLA
 can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company

 guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the
 agreement extends - the higher the cost.

 Kevin Custer

  Jed Barton wrote:
  tell me about this system a little bit.
 
 
  You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you
 utilize the
  Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private
 LAN/WAN.
 
  Chuck
  WB2EDV


 

 Meet singles at ninemsn dating Looking for a great date?
 http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/

[Repeater-Builder] Astron info needed

2010-01-04 Thread Mike Morris WA6ILQ

Recently I received an email asking me if I had any info on the
Astron model 1212 or 1212-18 switching regulated converters.

Well, none of the local usual suspects have anything and Astron
themselves is being unresponsive.

Does any of the list members have a schematic ?

Mike WA6ILQ

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

2010-01-04 Thread Ralph Hogan


In the link to the unit he bought off ebay, in the photo the GE Mastr II was
the IDA equipped version. 
Doesn't have a card rack to plug the PSE into. Of course you could wire it
in, but not as convenient as having the original style card rack where you
just plug it in.

Ralph W4XE

---

Duplexer? Nope, didn't say anything about a duplexer. You mentioned 
using the PSE508-2 controller (which does one tone), and I suggested 
using the -3 version instead to get the 4 tones.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Don E. Wisdom

try again.  I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one 
mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while.  
Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head 
checked.   Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home  you 
have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs 
your house.. What does your alarm do?  Nothing! it cant call out because the 
power is out.  VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for 
LIFE SAFETY things.  

the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours.  (and it should be since it 
costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 
hours are up.  Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't 
worth the toilet paper it is printed upon.  Its been proven multiple times in 
the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing 
youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable.  You have to 
remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if 
someone else does not have one. 
One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless 
protocol.  meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there.  
Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. 

This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea.  No insurance company in 
their right mind will touch this.  I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at 
banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems.

--Don


On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote:

 exactly what i thought.
 People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell
 of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM
 To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
 It's done very day ,a good  vpn and intranet  and very difficult to
 interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better
 so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio
 controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin  B ( and
 yes I have had training in the area)
 
 
 
 
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 From: rr...@librtynet.com
 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
 
 Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do
 what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which
 is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
 untrustworthy. 
 
 
 
 My two cents worth. 
 
 
 
 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
 
 
 Yes, and they are called Intranets.  
 
 
 
   - Original Message - 
 
   From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com  
 
   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com  
 
   Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM
 
   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
 internet
 

 
 
 
   The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes
 
   fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 
   connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 
   (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what
 many 
   CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber
 or 
   reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet
 overhead. 
   The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot
 (do 
   not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a
 SLA 
   can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company
 
   guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the 
   agreement extends - the higher the cost.
   
   Kevin Custer
   
Jed Barton wrote:
tell me about this system a little bit. 

   
You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you
 utilize the
Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private
 LAN/WAN.

Chuck
WB2EDV
   
 
 
 
 
 
 Meet singles at ninemsn dating Looking for a great date?
 http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Astron info needed

2010-01-04 Thread DCFluX

I can tell you they are fantastic at generating noise on 80 meters.

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Mike Morris WA6ILQ wa6...@gmail.com wrote:
 Recently I received an email asking me if I had any info on the
 Astron model 1212 or 1212-18 switching regulated converters.

 Well, none of the local usual suspects have anything and Astron
 themselves is being unresponsive.

 Does any of the list members have a schematic ?

 Mike WA6ILQ



 



 Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Bill Smith

VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical 
applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP 
isn't the problem, it's the transport medium.
 
Bill

--- On Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com wrote:


From: Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:08 PM


try again.  I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one 
mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while.  
Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head 
checked.   Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home  you 
have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs 
your house.. What does your alarm do?  Nothing! it cant call out because the 
power is out.  VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for 
LIFE SAFETY things.  

the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours.  (and it should be since it 
costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 
hours are up.  Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't 
worth the toilet paper it is printed upon.  Its been proven multiple times in 
the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing 
youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable.  You have to 
remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if 
someone else does not have one. 
One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless 
protocol.  meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there.  
Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. 

This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea.  No insurance company in 
their right mind will touch this.  I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at 
banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems.

--Don


On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote:

 exactly what i thought.
 People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell
 of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM
 To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
 It's done very day ,a good  vpn and intranet  and very difficult to
 interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better
 so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio
 controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin  B ( and
 yes I have had training in the area)
 
 
 
 
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 From: rr...@librtynet.com
 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
 
 Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do
 what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which
 is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
 untrustworthy. 
 
 
 
 My two cents worth. 
 
 
 
 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
 
 
 Yes, and they are called Intranets.  
 
 
 
     - Original Message - 
 
     From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com  
 
     To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com  
 
     Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM
 
     Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
 internet
 
  
 
       
 
     The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes
 
     fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 
     connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 
     (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what
 many 
     CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber
 or 
     reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet
 overhead. 
     The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot
 (do 
     not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a
 SLA 
     can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company
 
     guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the 
     agreement extends - the higher the cost.
     
     Kevin Custer
     
      Jed Barton wrote:
      tell me about this system a little bit. 
      
     
      You'll note

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

voip can be very relyable.
You just have to set it up right. 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Smith
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:21 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical
applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP
isn't the problem, it's the transport medium.

Bill

--- On Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com wrote:

From: Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
internet
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:08 PM

try again.  I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes
is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for
a while.  Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet
needs their head checked.   Ask yourself this question... If your power goes
out at home  you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable
modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do?  Nothing! it
cant call out because the power is out.  VoIP is not a technology that
anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things.  

the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours.  (and it should be
since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until
they're 4 hours are up.  Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA
or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon.  Its been proven
multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber
cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190%
reliable.  You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you
are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. 
One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a
connectionless protocol.  meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it
got there.  Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea
which. 

This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea.  No insurance
company in their right mind will touch this.  I'd heard that the NFPA is
also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems.

--Don

On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote:

 exactly what i thought.
 People can say relyability, but your internet connection is
probably a hell
 of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. 

 -Original Message-
 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c
om 
 [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c
om ] On Behalf Of Barry
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM
 To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c
om 
 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
internet

 It's done very day ,a good  vpn and intranet  and very difficult
to
 interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is
little better
 so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote
radio
 controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin
B ( and
 yes I have had training in the area)

 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c
om 
 From: rr...@librtynet.com
http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rr...@librtynet.com 
 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
internet

 Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER
designed to do
 what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications
system which
 is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
 untrustworthy. 

 My two cents worth. 

 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c
om 
 [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c
om ] On Behalf Of WA3GIN
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Don,

You have pointed out some valid concerns but the world doesn't care...VOIP is 
cost effective for day to day operations and everyone is going there as fast as 
they can...the fact that everyone is going there will bring the reliability you 
indicate is needed, before too long.  Just remember the telcos weren't that 
reliable for decades...but the world is changing and there ain't muc we can do 
about it except trying to bring the best ideas and concepts to the planning 
meetings to ensure as best we can that these networks have adequate redundancy, 
cyber security, etc.


Best,
dave
wa3gin

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bill Smith 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet



VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for 
mission-critical applications such major electric and gas utilities and public 
safety. VoIP isn't the problem, it's the transport medium.

Bill

--- On Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com wrote:


  From: Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the 
internet
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:08 PM


  try again.  I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes 
is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a 
while.  Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs 
their head checked.   Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at 
home  you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and 
someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do?  Nothing! it cant call out 
because the power is out.  VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be 
relying on for LIFE SAFETY things.  

  the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours.  (and it should be 
since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until 
they're 4 hours are up.  Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or 
it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon.  Its been proven multiple 
times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey 
stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable.  You 
have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as 
vulnerable if someone else does not have one. 
  One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a 
connectionless protocol.  meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it 
got there.  Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea 
which. 

  This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea.  No insurance 
company in their right mind will touch this.  I'd heard that the NFPA is also 
looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems.

  --Don


  On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote:

   exactly what i thought.
   People can say relyability, but your internet connection is 
probably a hell
   of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. 
   
   -Original Message-
   From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry
   Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM
   To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the 
internet
   
   
   
   It's done very day ,a good  vpn and intranet  and very difficult to
   interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is 
little better
   so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote 
radio
   controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin  B 
( and
   yes I have had training in the area)
   
   
   
   
   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
   From: rr...@librtynet.com
   Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
   Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the 
internet
   
   
   
   
   Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER 
designed to do
   what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications 
system which
   is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
   untrustworthy. 
   
   
   
   My two cents worth. 
   
   
   
   From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN
   Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
   To:

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Chris Robinson

There is no system that is fool proof or infallible. I deal with RF links
that fail all the time in major cities across the country.
 Lets consider how many dispatch centers are moving to remote dispatch or
even using IP based systems. I know that Woodbury county Iowa just upgraded
their system to a nice beautiful IP based system.

 Any one who considers doing so is actually on cutting edge grounds.
 Lets also consider that in order for the system to work at home, there do
have to be safe guards in place to protect system integrity, so the excuse
of being robbed or loss of power is a joke, there are redundant systems to
assist in this area. Thegreatest risk I see actually is employee quits or is
terminated and then the cost of system removal and re-install at a new
location. However if a smaller dedicated building is used to supplement the
dispatch center then this can be a controlled access point and easily
maintainable.
 I am sure the OP has no intention of just contacting the local ISP and
requesting a residential account for Life/safety applications. To get a back
haul and secure line is not difficult. I do it all the time for major
agencies, mostly over Vsat but none the less an IP based system.


 I am about to donate this keyboard to the roadway out front,the damn
spacebar is givingupon me
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.comwrote:



 try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one
 mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a
 while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs
 their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at
 home  you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and
 someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out
 because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be
 relying on for LIFE SAFETY things.

 the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it
 costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're
 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it
 isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple
 times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey
 stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You
 have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as
 vulnerable if someone else does not have one.
 One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a
 connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it
 got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea
 which.

 This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in
 their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at
 banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems.

 --Don


 On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote:

  exactly what i thought.
  People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a
 hell
  of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line.
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
  [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com]
 On Behalf Of Barry
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM
  To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.comrepeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
  It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to
  interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little
 better
  so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio
  controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and
  yes I have had training in the area)
 
 
  
 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
  From: rr...@librtynet.com rross%40librtynet.com
  Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
  Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
 
  Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to
 do
  what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system
 which
  is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
  untrustworthy.
 
 
 
  My two cents worth.
 
 
 
  From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
  [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com]
 On Behalf Of WA3GIN
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 
 
 
 
 
  Yes, and they are called Intranets.
 
 
 
  - Original Message -
 
  From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread James Adkins

I used to be very reluctant to rely on VoIP technology, over the internet or
otherwise.

About 1-1/2 years ago, I was forced to install a VoIP link to one of our
remote tower sites in Missouri (I'm a radio engineer for the Missouri
Highway Patrol).  The tower site was too far for a UHF remote control link,
and we didn't have the money for multiple microwave hops.  In addition,
there was no telephone lines there, but we had IP on a local electric
company backbone.  So, we never really go to the Internet so to speak.  We
started out using JPS NXU-2A's and they were great, but had too much
latency.  Close to a second by the time you add in their synchronization and
codec latency to our pipe latency.  So, we switched to the Telex IP-223's
and they work equally as well, just much less latency and many more bells
and whistles.  I have not had a SINGLE outage, unlike our other sites that
we lease a 56k digital data circuit from.  So much for SLA's!  Some sites
are down for as much as a week, and that's with me hounding them every so
many hours, or literally driving to the phone company's CO in the town
closest to my tower site.

Since then, we have installed two other VoIP links in other parts of the
state.  One uses DSL on both ends - never an outage.  The other uses a cable
modem on one end and a wireless internet provider on the other - never an
outage.

If you're using an NXU-2A, you could have a static IP at a repeater site,
and the user could connect up with free software called PC NXU (also by JPS)
and use their laptop or desktop PC as their console.  Only problem is that
one person can be connected at a time.  Not sure if there's a way around
this or not, not that I'm aware of.

Though I still have some reservations of totally relying on VoIP over the
Internet or other means, I am becoming more of a believer every day.  The
Internet providers are all about keeping their equipment up, and the phone
companies seem to be becoming less and less interested in keeping their
circuits up and running.

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:32 PM, WA3GIN wa3...@comcast.net wrote:



 Don,

 You have pointed out some valid concerns but the world doesn't care...VOIP
 is cost effective for day to day operations and everyone is going there as
 fast as they can...the fact that everyone is going there will bring the
 reliability you indicate is needed, before too long.  Just remember the
 telcos weren't that reliable for decades...but the world is changing and
 there ain't muc we can do about it except trying to bring the best ideas and
 concepts to the planning meetings to ensure as best we can that these
 networks have adequate redundancy, cyber security, etc.


 Best,
 dave
 wa3gin


 - Original Message -
 *From:* Bill Smith brsc...@yahoo.com
 *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 *Sent:* Monday, January 04, 2010 7:20 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
 internet



   VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical
 applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP
 isn't the problem, it's the transport medium.

 Bill

 --- On *Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com* wrote:


 From: Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com
 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:08 PM

 try again.  I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one
 mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a
 while.  Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs
 their head checked.   Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out
 at home  you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem)
 and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do?  Nothing! it cant
 call out because the power is out.  VoIP is not a technology that anyone
 should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things.

 the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours.  (and it should be since it
 costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're
 4 hours are up.  Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it
 isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon.  Its been proven multiple
 times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey
 stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable.
 You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as
 vulnerable if someone else does not have one.
 One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a
 connectionless protocol.  meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it
 got there.  Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea
 which.

 This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea.  No insurance company
 in their right mind will touch this.  I'd heard that the NFPA is also
 looking at banning

[Repeater-Builder] Here you go Jerry now you know why I want to get a bunch of them***

2010-01-04 Thread Tom Corso

---BeginMessage---
 





 





 








Subject: Fw: Two Dollar Bill


Your chuckle for the day. 



 

 





 http://us.mc1106.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ya...@verizon.net 


 

Subject: FW: Two Dollar Bill

 

Subject: FW: Two Dollar Bill

THE $2.00 BILL I TRIED TO SPEND:

IF YOU'RE AS OLD AS I AM, THIS IS A RIOT!

Everyone should start carrying $2 bills!  I am STILL laughing!!  I think we
need to quit saving our $2 bills and bring them out in public.  The younger
generation doesn't even know they exist.

STORY:

On my way home from work, I stopped at Taco Bell for a quick bite to eat.
In my billfold are a $50 bill and a $2 bill.  I figure that with a $2 bill,
I can get something to eat and not have to worry about anyone getting
irritated at me for trying to break a $50 bill.

Me:  'Hi, I'd like one seven-layer burrito please, to go.'

Server: 'That'll be $1.04.  Eat in?'

Me:  'No, it's to go.'  At this point, I open my billfold and hand him the
$2 bill.  He looks at it kind of funny.

Server: 'Uh, hang on a sec, I'll be right back.'

He goes to talk to his manager, who is still within my earshot.  The
following conversation occurs between the two of them:

Server:  'Hey, you ever see a $2 bill?'

Manager   'No.  A what?'

Server:  'A $2 bill.  This guy just gave it to me...'

Manager:  'Ask for something else.  There's no such thing as a $2 bill.'

Server:  'Yeah, thought so.'

He comes back to me and says, 'We don't take these.  Do you have anything
else?'

Me:  'Just this fifty.  You don't take $2 bills?  Why?

Server:  'I don't know.'

Me:  'See here where it says legal tender?'

Server:  'Yeah.'

Me:  'So, why won't you take it?'

Server:  'Well, hang on a sec.'

He goes back to his manager, who has been watching me like I'm a shoplifter,
and says to him, 'He says I have to take it.'

Manager:  'Doesn't he have anything else?'

Server:  'Yeah, a fifty.  I'll get it and you can open the safe and get
change.

Manager:  'I'm not opening the safe with him in here.'

Server:  'What should I do?'

Manager:  'Tell him to come back later when he has real money.'

Server:  'I can't tell him that!  You tell him.'

Manager:  'Just tell him.'

Server:  'No way!  This is weird.  I'm going in back.

The manager approaches me and says, 'I'm sorry, but we don't take big bills
this time of night.'

Me:  'It's only seven o'clock!  Well then, here's a two dollar bill.'

Manager:  'We don't take those, either.'

Me:  'Why not?'

Manager:  'I think you know why.'

Me:  'No really, tell me why.'

Manager   'Please leave before I call mall security.'

Me:  'Excuse me?'

Manager:  'Please leave before I call mall security.'

Me:  'What on earth for?'

Manager:  'Please, sir..'

Me:  'Uh, go ahead, call them.'

Manager:  'Would you please just leave?'

Me:   'No.'

Manager:  'Fine -- have it your way then.'

Me:  'Hey, that's Burger King, isn't it?'

At this point, he backs away from me and calls mall security on the phone
around the corner.  I have two people staring at me from the dining area,
and I begin laughing out loud, just for effect.  A few minutes later this
45-year-oldish guy comes in.

Guard:  'Yeah, Mike, what's up?'

Manager (whispering):  'This guy is trying to give me some (pause) funny
money.'

Guard:  'No kidding!  What?'

Manager:  'Get this.  A two dollar bill.'

Guard (incredulous):  'Why would a guy fake a two dollar bill?'

Manager:  'I don't know.  He's kinda weird.  He says the only other thing he
has is a fifty.'

Guard:  'Oh, so the fifty's fake!'

Manager:  'No, the two dollar bill is.'

Guard:  'Why would he fake a two dollar bill?'

Manager :  'I don't know!  Can you talk to him, and get him out of here?'

Guard:  'Yeah.'

Security Guard walks over to me and..

Guard:  'Mike here tells me you have some fake bills you're trying to use.'

Me:   'Uh, no.'

Guard:  'Lemme see 'em.'

Me:  'Why?'

Guard:  'Do you want me to get the cops in here?'

At this point I am ready to say, ' Sure, please!' but I want to eat, so I
say, 'I'm just trying to buy a burrito and pay for it with this two dollar
bill.

I put the bill up near his face, and he flinches like I'm taking a swing at
him.  He takes the bill, turns it over a few times in his hands, and he
says, 'Hey, Mike, what's wrong with this bill?'

Manager: 'It's fake.'

Guard:  'It doesn't look fake to me.'

Manager: 'But it's a two dollar bill.'

Guard:  'Yeah? '

Manager: 'Well, there's no such thing, is there?'

The security guard and I both look at him like he's an idiot and it dawns on
the guy that he has no clue and is an idiot.  So, it turns out that my
burrito was free, and he threw in a small drink and some of those cinnamon
thingies, too.  Made me want to get a whole stack of two dollar bills just
to see what happens when I try to buy stuff.

Just think... those two will be voting soon!!?!

YIKES!!!

Too late, we already have a nation full of them.

 

 


  _  


Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Doug Bade

Jed;
What you ask is more of a legal issue than technical. There are 
several products built to transport voice/radio over IP and at least 2 
have been mentioned in this thread.. But.. before you start buying 
equipment I think you need to deal with the legal and liability issues.. 
this has nothing to do with technical.. it has to do with state and/or 
federal laws.. In my state a 911 call center has to be manned full time 
24x7 and cannot be switched from one center to another ( or in your 
case dispatchers houses) . It is just not permitted... I am assuming 
most states have similar laws.. actually routing the call is not the 
issue... If you cannot comply with the 24x7x365 from a manned single 
point.. I do not think you can run a 911 PSAP dispatch center.. I am not 
talking about switching for backups.. I am talking about switching for 
shift coverage or day/night type scenarios. Now ... if your County Seat  
( Sheriffs Office etc..) handles 911 calls and all you want to do is 
deal with non emergency and voice dispatch of non essential traffic.. 
that is another matter...
There are VOIP and ROIP solutions for remote controlling radios.  
There are Wireless Consoles on IP based systems.. Almost ALL Public 
Safety IP based linking system that I have ever seen have a requirement 
of a finite fixed or controlled latency which as mentioned by others 
means a private network, or private within a public network or some 
equivalent Service Level Agreement that will make sure it will be.. 
There are commercial applications of ROIP such as 
http://www.xelatec.com/xippr/products who offer software and hardware 
to remote control transceivers.. These are business class solutions but 
are well established.. They have plenty of roots in amateur linking as 
well as commercial systems... it is largely based on Asterisk PBX.
Another product group of hardware is referred to TDM over IP.. these 
systems create framed T1's etc over IP backhaul ( private or private 
over public networks) but latency and jitter must be controlled.. 
anything from 4 wire EM over IP to 56k and up to T1 or even multi T1.
IDA Corporation also makes Radio over IP control hardware.. I do 
have recent experience with those products.. and I can also say that 
product group seems to be in at least one major manufacturer's IP based 
desktop Control Station radio hardware.. supporting IP based remotes or 
standard dc or tone remotes...
Doug
KD8B


Jed Barton wrote:
  

 the phone system we're thinking of going with is a system called ring
 central.
 It's a system i am very familiar with, and have a ton of experience with.
 Curious if you have done the VOIP thing before in a dispatch environment.

 -Original Message-
 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
 mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
 mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Bade
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:23 PM
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
 mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

 Jed;
 There are certainly options to pass radio audio and keying over the
 internet in VOIP or equivalent scenarios. I would also mention there are
 several agencies who have regulations on how calls are answered and
 dispatched... Your solution would seem to require some approvals if 
 involves
 911.. A cheap and dirty IP based solution may not meet the legal
 requirements and implied service requirements of your municipals insurance
 company. I would think you need to verify it is legal to do what you want
 let alone insured... then find a solution that satisfies those parties...

 Doug
 KD8B

 At 04:03 PM 1/4/2010, you wrote:

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Don Kupferschmidt

I can't but ask the question - mission critical with out a UPS backup?

Yeah, ok, you bring up somegood points.

Don, KD9PT

  - Original Message - 
  From: Don E. Wisdom 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

  try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one 
mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. 
Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head 
checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home  you 
have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs 
your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the 
power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for 
LIFE SAFETY things. 

  the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it 
costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 
hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't 
worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in 
the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing 
youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to 
remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if 
someone else does not have one. 
  One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a 
connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got 
there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. 

  This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in 
their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at 
banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems.

  --Don

  On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote:

   exactly what i thought.
   People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell
   of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. 

   -Original Message-
   From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry
   Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM
   To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

   It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to
   interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better
   so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio
   controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and
   yes I have had training in the area)

   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
   From: rr...@librtynet.com
   Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700
   Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

   Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do
   what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which
   is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely
   untrustworthy. 

   My two cents worth. 

   From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN
   Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

   Yes, and they are called Intranets. 

   - Original Message - 

   From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com 

   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
   mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 

   Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM

   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the
   internet

   The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes

   fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish 
   connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not 
   (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what
   many 
   CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber
   or 
   reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet
   overhead. 
   The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot
   (do 
   not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a
   SLA 
   can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company

   guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the 
   agreement extends - the higher the cost.

   Kevin Custer

Jed Barton wrote:
tell me about this system a little bit. 

You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you
   utilize the
Internet

[Repeater-Builder] Re: dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread rahwayflynn

Jed,
A couple of things:   Is this going to impact the Fire Departments  ISO (Public 
Protection Classification Program) rating by dispatching from a residence?   
Dispatch is 10% of the total ISO/PPCP score. 

Does your proposed IP based solution meet the requirement of ISO for the 
potential  10%?See http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3002.html for 
the details.  

You might want to take a look at NFPA 1221, Standard for the Installation, 
Maintenance, and use of Emergency Communications systems.   If this is the 
document your AHJ is going to use, I don't see any reasonable way for a 
residence to meet the requirements.

Martin

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Jed Barton j...@... wrote:

 Hey guys,
 I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
 Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the
 dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
 This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good
 to do it.
 I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
 This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons.  In
 looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a
 verizon phone line.
 Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
 For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven
 relyability.
 
 Thanks,
 Jed

[Repeater-Builder] Prog Line VHF Repeater to give away

2010-01-04 Thread Eric M.



A friend of mine has a VHF Prog Line Repeater to give away.  It is 
currently setup for 147 and 147.6 Mhz and was working when it was 
removed from service.  He doesn't want to just junk it but would like it 
to go to someone who can and will use it.  He has all the documentation 
with it, including schematics etc.


This repeater can be picked up in Whitby Ontario.  He does travel daily 
to Toronto and sometimes throughout the Golden Horseshoe and is willing 
to bring it with him and meet you.


So if you are interested in the repeater and are willing to come and get 
it, it is yours.


Contact me offlist at va3...@sympatico.ca

Eric.

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

2010-01-04 Thread gerald bishop

How does one control, from a distance ,a PSE controller? Using  the tone set-up 
? Jerry

--- On Mon, 1/4/10, Ralph Hogan rhog...@comcast.net wrote:

From: Ralph Hogan rhog...@comcast.net
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:59 PM

In the link to the unit he bought off ebay, in the photo the GE Mastr II was

the IDA equipped version. 

Doesn't have a card rack to plug the PSE into. Of course you could wire it

in, but not as convenient as having the original style card rack where you

just plug it in.

Ralph W4XE

 - - - - - -

Duplexer? Nope, didn't say anything about a duplexer. You mentioned 

using the PSE508-2 controller (which does one tone), and I suggested 

using the -3 version instead to get the 4 tones.

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Eric Lemmon

Jed,

Whether or not it CAN be done is not an issue.  The issue is whether it
SHOULD be done.  The notion of a public safety agency operating an alerting
system that is based at someone's home, using privately-contracted phone
lines, is really frightening!  What if the dispatcher is indisposed when
an emergency call comes in?  What if the teenager in the house is tying up
the Internet connection with XBOX?  Will any insurance company indemnify the
at-home dispatcher if a call is unanswered and someone dies?  Fire
departments deserve and require professional dispatch personnel at a duty
position.

I disagree with your conclusion that the Internet is more reliable than a
Verizon phone line.  I know of no peer-reviewed study that supports such a
statement.  Moreover, since a copper telephone connection is about as
reliable as communication can be, I think the reverse is true.  In fact, my
Verizon phone line has never failed- in the 35-some years I have had it, but
my Internet connection has failed many, many times.  I do not mean to imply
that Verizon is any more or less reliable than any other wireline provider-
only that a copper CO connection from any provider is probably more reliable
than any Internet connection.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
  

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jed Barton
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:04 PM
To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

  

Hey guys,
I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
Here's the proposal, to set up a dispatch center for an FD, where the
dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good
to do it.
I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In
looking at it though, the reliability of the net is very good compared to a
verizon phone line.
Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
For the phone system, we're using a virtual phone system that has proven
reliability.

Thanks,
Jed

RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

2010-01-04 Thread Brent DeSalvo

time is of the essence

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 8:35 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Jed,

Whether or not it CAN be done is not an issue. The issue is whether it
SHOULD be done. The notion of a public safety agency operating an alerting
system that is based at someone's home, using privately-contracted phone
lines, is really frightening! What if the dispatcher is indisposed when
an emergency call comes in? What if the teenager in the house is tying up
the Internet connection with XBOX? Will any insurance company indemnify the
at-home dispatcher if a call is unanswered and someone dies? Fire
departments deserve and require professional dispatch personnel at a duty
position.

I disagree with your conclusion that the Internet is more reliable than a
Verizon phone line. I know of no peer-reviewed study that supports such a
statement. Moreover, since a copper telephone connection is about as
reliable as communication can be, I think the reverse is true. In fact, my
Verizon phone line has never failed- in the 35-some years I have had it, but
my Internet connection has failed many, many times. I do not mean to imply
that Verizon is any more or less reliable than any other wireline provider-
only that a copper CO connection from any provider is probably more reliable
than any Internet connection.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jed Barton
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:04 PM
To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
mailto:repeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Hey guys,
I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
Here's the proposal, to set up a dispatch center for an FD, where the
dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good
to do it.
I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In
looking at it though, the reliability of the net is very good compared to a
verizon phone line.
Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
For the phone system, we're using a virtual phone system that has proven
reliability.

Thanks,
Jed

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10
13:35:00

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

I keep wondering - isn't there a County dispatch center and why wouldn't 
dispatch simply be handled from there? Most counties have a mutual aid 
agreement in place for all the fire departments and typically a single 
dispatch center is shared by them all. Seems the most logical and 
cost-effective method.

Chuck
WB2EDV


- Original Message - 
 From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jed Barton
 Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:04 PM
 To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet



 Hey guys,
 I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this.
 Here's the proposal, to set up a dispatch center for an FD, where the
 dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing.
 This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be 
 good
 to do it.
 I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done.
 This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In
 looking at it though, the reliability of the net is very good compared to 
 a
 verizon phone line.
 Curious if anyone has done something like this before.
 For the phone system, we're using a virtual phone system that has proven
 reliability.

 Thanks,
 Jed

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Let get real...we're making up configurations and drawing conclusions that will 
perhaps not even be considered. Without being part of the public safety team in 
this fellas community all these what-ifs are senseless. Each community and its 
emergency management will decide what works best for them...the fella asked for 
some technical advice.  Lets keep the tread on the technical advice and not try 
to pretend we can offer more than that without details about the entire system 
design, architecture and implementation plans... 

In this guys town a public safety agency might be a part-time assignment for a 
volunteer fireman. Remember there is 50% of this nations population that 
doesn't live in the 200 largest cities ;-)

Telework is very important to the future of our good old USA...we better figure 
out how to do it and soon!


  - Original Message - 
  From: Eric Lemmon 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:34 PM
  Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

  Jed,

  Whether or not it CAN be done is not an issue. The issue is whether it
  SHOULD be done. The notion of a public safety agency operating an alerting
  system that is based at someone's home, using privately-contracted phone
  lines, is really frightening! What if the dispatcher is indisposed when
  an emergency call comes in? What if the..

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

Michael H. Cox wrote:
 Sorry, that's what I meant.  Is that what this controller will do?
 Thanks,

Yes...I haven't been around one, but that's how it reads. Seems like a 
decent choice, no idea how it performs though.
You can get a used Com-spec TP3200 for about the same price, and it's a 
known good performer, but you will have to make up the interface to the 
repeater yourself, where the PSE looks like it just plugs in.
Ya pays yer money, ya makes yer choices...or something like that!


 -Original Message-
 From: wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com
 Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:10:59 
 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts
 
 Michael Cox wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:29 AM, wd8chl wd8...@gmail.com wrote:

 Michael Cox wrote:

 Controller - I recommend a NHRC model that plugs into the Systems
 board,
 or, one of the Pion  Simon models that plug into the card cage.

 http://www.nhrc.net/ge-stuff.php
 http://www.pionsimon.com/products.htm

 It looks like I can use the NHRC-4/M2 to make it a linked repeater. If I
 go
 with the Ham repeater, I'll most likely do that. That would require, if I
 understand correctly, another radio connected in, so that will have to be
 done later with future funds. :)

 If I decide to make it a GMRS repeater, I won't have to worry about that
 and
 will go with the PSE508-2, as its a little less expensive.
 
 For GMRS, I would go with the -3 version to get the extra tones. It
 gives you 4 users. While they can't talk at the same time (obviously),
 a user with one tone won't hear the other users unless he takes his mic
 off-hook, putting the rx in carrier squelch. (and in commercial
 service, it is required for users to not interfere with other users on a
 'shared' frequency (GMRS is ALWAYS shared with others). This is most
 easily accomplished by putting the rx in carrier squelch when the mic is
 taken off the clip to talk. The user then knows not to talk if someone
 else is already talking.
 Anyway, you can have 4 different groups of people with the -3 version.
 Not bad.


 So, to make sure I understand correctly, I can program the repeater to use
 the same frequency but with 4 different PL tones with this Duplexer?
 
 Duplexer? Nope, didn't say anything about a duplexer. You mentioned 
 using the PSE508-2 controller (which does one tone), and I suggested 
 using the -3 version instead to get the 4 tones.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

Ralph Hogan wrote:
 In the link to the unit he bought off ebay, in the photo the GE Mastr II was
 the IDA equipped version. 
 Doesn't have a card rack to plug the PSE into. Of course you could wire it
 in, but not as convenient as having the original style card rack where you
 just plug it in.
 
 Ralph W4XE

heh-yeah, that would be a problem...didn't look that close!
might as well get a used TP-3200 then, and he can turn on as many tones 
as he wants, not just 4!


 ---
 
 Duplexer? Nope, didn't say anything about a duplexer. You mentioned 
 using the PSE508-2 controller (which does one tone), and I suggested 
 using the -3 version instead to get the 4 tones.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet

Don has it right. Using an inTERnet connection is not acceptable for 
this application. Only a closed, private network (inTRAnet) is even 
barely acceptable, and then there is still the problem of what is called 
backhoe fade. Pretty self explanatory.

Jed Barton wrote:
 voip can be very relyable.
 You just have to set it up right. 
 

  On Behalf Of Bill Smith

   
 
 VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical
 applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP
 isn't the problem, it's the transport medium.
  
 Bill
 
 --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com wrote:
 
   
   try again.  I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes
 is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for
 a while.  Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet
 needs their head checked.   Ask yourself this question... If your power goes
 out at home  you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable
 modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do?  Nothing! it
 cant call out because the power is out.  VoIP is not a technology that
 anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things.  
   
   the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours.  (and it should be
 since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until
 they're 4 hours are up.  Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA
 or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon.  Its been proven
 multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber
 cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190%
 reliable.  You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you
 are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. 
   One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a
 connectionless protocol.  meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it
 got there.  Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea
 which. 
   
   This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea.  No insurance
 company in their right mind will touch this.  I'd heard that the NFPA is
 also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems.
   
   --Don

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mastr II mods and parts

gerald bishop wrote:
 How does one control, from a distance ,a PSE controller? Using  the tone 
 set-up ? Jerry
 

DTMF

Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet