Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: In the USA the 60-66MHz range is television channel 3, the 66-72MHz range is TV channel 4, the 72-76MHz frequencies are used as Operational Fixed / Repeater frequencies (essentially commercial point-to-point links), 76-82MHz is TV channel 5 and 82-88MHz is TV channel 6. Might want to keep that in mind... lets see how many areas have 3, 4, 5 an 6 freed up. Mike WA6ILQ Fell quite a bit behind in this group...|cP Cleveland Ch3 has its DTV on Ch2 right now (you think you guys with an analog Ch2 have problems on 6M? You ain't seen nothin'! 30-40dB of desense spread across 2 MHz-and that's AFTER EXTENSIVE filtering at the TV station!) They will be moving everything to Ch17. I don't know about Ch5 yet, but I think they are moving too. However, Ch8 is staying. Their DTV is on UHF now, and will be shut down.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
MCH wrote: will free up airwaves for use by emergency responders.??? The TV spectrum is being freed up by ANALOG stations and the SAME SPECTRUM will be reused by DIGITAL stations. The only spectrum being freed up by TV for PS use is on the 764 MHz + band. (two TV channels, I believe) and has nothing to do with a transition to digital. The same could have been achieved by simply moving those analog stations to other channels. An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? Most VHF analog stations are using UHF for their Digital broadcast. Channel 6 Johnstown is 34 UHF Channel 2 PGH is now on 25 UHF Channel 4 PGH is on 51 (I think) UHF stations have been allocated a different channel for their DTV 53 PGH is on 43 UHF (I think) While it was told that ALL VHF television would move to UHF, I don't believe that is going to be reality. I could be wrong, however Kevin
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
While it was told that ALL VHF television would move to UHF, I don't believe that is going to be reality. I could be wrong, however My local channel 12 is moving to channel 9 with the digital transition... 73, Paul N1BUG
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
Reality Channels 2-13 will mostly be vacant. There are a small number of stations that will revert back to their hi VHF channel after Feb 17. Hi VHF channels 7-13. Here in Tucson only one station will revert back to their original channel. KGUN on 9. Other VHF stations in Tucson, 4,6,11 13 are all going to stay on their UHF assignment. On the UHF side, stations will pack the 14 through 52 spectrum. Channels 53 through 69 will be given up. Broadcasters are really wanting this mess to be over. My former station, KVOA is spending more than twice as much on elect, cooling etc running two transmitters. One on 4 and one on 23. The stations all want to stop the bleeding of money. The only monkey wrench I can see is congress mandating that we do not turn of on Feb 17, 2009. There seems to be some in congress that feel it isn't going to work. Only time will tell. Ralph -- Original message -- From: Kevin Custer [EMAIL PROTECTED] MCH wrote: will free up airwaves for use by emergency responders.??? The TV spectrum is being freed up by ANALOG stations and the SAME SPECTRUM will be reused by DIGITAL stations. The only spectrum being freed up by TV for PS use is on the 764 MHz + band. (two TV channels, I believe) and has nothing to do with a transition to digital. The same could have been achieved by simply moving those analog stations to other channels. An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? Most VHF analog stations are using UHF for their Digital broadcast. Channel 6 Johnstown is 34 UHF Channel 2 PGH is now on 25 UHF Channel 4 PGH is on 51 (I think) UHF stations have been allocated a different channel for their DTV 53 PGH is on 43 UHF (I think) While it was told that ALL VHF television would move to UHF, I don't believe that is going to be reality. I could be wrong, however Kevin ---BeginMessage--- MCH wrote: will free up airwaves for use by emergency responders.??? The TV spectrum is being freed up by ANALOG stations and the SAME SPECTRUM will be reused by DIGITAL stations. The only spectrum being freed up by TV for PS use is on the 764 MHz + band. (two TV channels, I believe) and has nothing to do with a transition to digital. The same could have been achieved by simply moving those analog stations to other channels. An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? Most VHF analog stations are using UHF for their Digital broadcast. Channel 6 Johnstown is 34 UHF Channel 2 PGH is now on 25 UHF Channel 4 PGH is on 51 (I think) UHF stations have been allocated a different channel for their DTV 53 PGH is on 43 UHF (I think) While it was told that ALL VHF television would move to UHF, I don't believe that is going to be reality. I could be wrong, however Kevin ---End Message---
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
At 1/6/2008 09:10, you wrote: Broadcasters are really wanting this mess to be over. My former station, KVOA is spending more than twice as much on elect, cooling etc running two transmitters. One on 4 and one on 23. The stations all want to stop the bleeding of money. I thought that the broadcasters would actually fight this, as there will definitely be a reduction in OTA viewership (hence ratings, hence advert. $$$) the second the analogs are switched off. I own 5 non-DTV TVs (not including an old Watchman), since satellite TV is unaffected I will probably forget the mostly useless OTA programming (I don't/won't pay for locals via the dish) continue to watch std. def. TV via the dishes. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
At 1/5/2008 22:02, you wrote: Has anyone else here seen the bull put out by NTIA on https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspxhttps://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx = 1. What is the digital television transition? An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? As there are some broadcast types here, maybe someone can explain the technology used where X analog stations using 6 MHz each will be more efficient by the same number of stations using 6 MHz each. Is this that new math they are using? While a DTV signal uses the same bandwidth, several channels can be carried on one signal (I think they used to call this a channel bouquet, don't know if the term is still in use). So we will end up with the same amount of spectrum used for TV but with many more channels. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
-- Original Message -- An analog (TV) allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? Because digital TV broadcasting can cram multiple viewing channels in that same 6 MHZ spectrum.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
Yes, PGH is all UHF. As I mentioned, look at Harrisburg's DTV allocations. They have one on Channel 2. (I pity their 6M activities as much as I rejoice PGH's channel 2 going away) Joe M. Kevin Custer wrote: MCH wrote: will free up airwaves for use by emergency responders.??? The TV spectrum is being freed up by ANALOG stations and the SAME SPECTRUM will be reused by DIGITAL stations. The only spectrum being freed up by TV for PS use is on the 764 MHz + band. (two TV channels, I believe) and has nothing to do with a transition to digital. The same could have been achieved by simply moving those analog stations to other channels. An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? Most VHF analog stations are using UHF for their Digital broadcast. Channel 6 Johnstown is 34 UHF Channel 2 PGH is now on 25 UHF Channel 4 PGH is on 51 (I think) UHF stations have been allocated a different channel for their DTV 53 PGH is on 43 UHF (I think) While it was told that ALL VHF television would move to UHF, I don't believe that is going to be reality. I could be wrong, however Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
I have yet to see any station share their DTV channel with another station. (which would save spectrum) So, there may be more content, but station WXYZ will still use the full 6 MHz. If my local area is any indication, they will simply add channels such as full time traffic and WX. (like you need 6 channels of WX forecasts) I've still seen nothing to tie the DTV in with giving PS more spectrum. Joe M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 1/5/2008 22:02, you wrote: Has anyone else here seen the bull put out by NTIA on https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspxhttps://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx = 1. What is the digital television transition? An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? As there are some broadcast types here, maybe someone can explain the technology used where X analog stations using 6 MHz each will be more efficient by the same number of stations using 6 MHz each. Is this that new math they are using? While a DTV signal uses the same bandwidth, several channels can be carried on one signal (I think they used to call this a channel bouquet, don't know if the term is still in use). So we will end up with the same amount of spectrum used for TV but with many more channels. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
Some have here, but I do not know if there exists any financial interest between the two stations. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda I have yet to see any station share their DTV channel with another station. (which would save spectrum) So, there may be more content, but station WXYZ will still use the full 6 MHz. If my local area is any indication, they will simply add channels such as full time traffic and WX. (like you need 6 channels of WX forecasts) I've still seen nothing to tie the DTV in with giving PS more spectrum. Joe M.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
I can't picture that ever happening; I understand it will allow each station to broadcast multiple programs, should they choose to. Richard http://www.n7tgb.net/ www.n7tgb.net _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MCH Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:43 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda I have yet to see any station share their DTV channel with another station. (which would save spectrum) So, there may be more content, but station WXYZ will still use the full 6 MHz. If my local area is any indication, they will simply add channels such as full time traffic and WX. (like you need 6 channels of WX forecasts) I've still seen nothing to tie the DTV in with giving PS more spectrum. Joe M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:no6b%40no6b.com wrote: At 1/5/2008 22:02, you wrote: Has anyone else here seen the bull put out by NTIA on https://www. https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspxhttps://www. https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx = 1. What is the digital television transition? An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? As there are some broadcast types here, maybe someone can explain the technology used where X analog stations using 6 MHz each will be more efficient by the same number of stations using 6 MHz each. Is this that new math they are using? While a DTV signal uses the same bandwidth, several channels can be carried on one signal (I think they used to call this a channel bouquet, don't know if the term is still in use). So we will end up with the same amount of spectrum used for TV but with many more channels. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
- Original Message - From: MCH [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have yet to see any station share their DTV channel with another station. (which would save spectrum) I was looking at my local area, and there's at least one example... in Springfield, MO, new DTV 44-1 will be the NBC affiliate, while 44-2 will be the CW (and 44-3 will be Weather Now, I guess it's a clone of The Weather Channel?) I was trying to prove or disprove our local (Joplin, MO FOX station being simulcast on a DTV when they move, but I can't find it yet... aah. Here, I found that the CBS affiliate, currently on 7, will move to 13, and Fox, currently on 14, wants to coexist on 13, but hasn't gotten approval yet... So, there may be more content, but station WXYZ will still use the full 6 MHz. If my local area is any indication, they will simply add channels such as full time traffic and WX. (like you need 6 channels of WX forecasts) Yup. Our local PBS stations will be running 4 channels on each of the local DTV frequencies, the regular, the HD, Kids, and You. Eeh... I've still seen nothing to tie the DTV in with giving PS more spectrum. You sure it wasn't the fact that they want to vacate the 700 MHz chunk of the spectrum? Other than that, the only thing I can think of, and boy is it a long shot, is that the FCC is trying to get _all_ the tv off of channels 2 thru 6... nah, never mind. :-( _Ray_KBØSTN
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
There was a discussion on this topic a few weekends at the local ham club after-meeting all those that don't have to be awake at zero-too-early in the morning to go to work wander over to a local 24 hour coffee shop and discuss all kinds of technical topics. One comment was that US military would really love to see TV channels 3, 4, 5 and 6 vacated. That drew a bunch of huh comments, and some head nodding from others. It seems that 66-88mhz is used by the military in much of the world. In the USA the 60-66MHz range is television channel 3, the 66-72MHz range is TV channel 4, the 72-76MHz frequencies are used as Operational Fixed / Repeater frequencies (essentially commercial point-to-point links), 76-82MHz is TV channel 5 and 82-88MHz is TV channel 6. Might want to keep that in mind... lets see how many areas have 3, 4, 5 an 6 freed up. Mike WA6ILQ At 09:10 AM 01/06/08, you wrote: Reality Channels 2-13 will mostly be vacant. There are a small number of stations that will revert back to their hi VHF channel after Feb 17. Hi VHF channels 7-13. Here in Tucson only one station will revert back to their original channel. KGUN on 9. Other VHF stations in Tucson, 4,6,11 13 are all going to stay on their UHF assignment. On the UHF side, stations will pack the 14 through 52 spectrum. Channels 53 through 69 will be given up. Broadcasters are really wanting this mess to be over. My former station, KVOA is spending more than twice as much on elect, cooling etc running two transmitters. One on 4 and one on 23. The stations all want to stop the bleeding of money. The only monkey wrench I can see is congress mandating that we do not turn of on Feb 17, 2009. There seems to be some in congress that feel it isn't going to work. Only time will tell. Ralph -- Original message -- From: Kevin Custer [EMAIL PROTECTED] MCH wrote: will free up airwaves for use by emergency responders.??? The TV spectrum is being freed up by ANALOG stations and the SAME SPECTRUM will be reused by DIGITAL stations. The only spectrum being freed up by TV for PS use is on the 764 MHz + band. (two TV channels, I believe) and has nothing to do with a transition to digital. The same could have been achieved by simply moving those analog stations to other channels. An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? Most VHF analog stations are using UHF for their Digital broadcast. Channel 6 Johnstown is 34 UHF Channel 2 PGH is now on 25 UHF Channel 4 PGH is on 51 (I think) UHF stations have been allocated a different channel for their DTV 53 PGH is on 43 UHF (I think) While it was told that ALL VHF television would move to UHF, I don't believe that is going to be reality. I could be wrong, however Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links From:Kevin Custer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject:Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda Date:Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:31:28 + Content-Type: Multipart/alternative; boundary=NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6578_1199639401_1 MCH wrote: will free up airwaves for use by emergency responders.??? The TV spectrum is being freed up by ANALOG stations and the SAME SPECTRUM will be reused by DIGITAL stations. The only spectrum being freed up by TV for PS use is on the 764 MHz + band. (two TV channels, I believe) and has nothing to do with a transition to digital. The same could have been achieved by simply moving those analog stations to other channels. An analog allocation is 6 MHz. A digital allocation is 6 MHz. How is digital saving spectrum? Most VHF analog stations are using UHF for their Digital broadcast. Channel 6 Johnstown is 34 UHF Channel 2 PGH is now on 25 UHF Channel 4 PGH is on 51 (I think) UHF stations have been allocated a different channel for their DTV 53 PGH is on 43 UHF (I think) While it was told that ALL VHF television would move to UHF, I don't believe that is going to be reality. I could be wrong, however Kevin
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Off Topic (but with on topic questions): NTIA propaganda
On Jan 6, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Ray Brown wrote: I was looking at my local area, and there's at least one example... in Springfield, MO, new DTV 44-1 will be the NBC affiliate, while 44-2 will be the CW (and 44-3 will be Weather Now, I guess it's a clone of The Weather Channel?) Our local NBC affiliate KUSA-9 has one of these continuous Weather Plus channels already going as does the local ABC affiliate KMGH-7. They're a mixture of a continuously updated weather info set into side and bottom bars, and a running loop of pre-recorded local news and weather forecasts, along with additional commercials (of course). http://www.9news.com/life/programming/default.aspx - KUSA DT and KUSA DT2 listings. As you can see, KUSA DT2 is in perma-Weather mode right now. Same thing with KMGH. http://www.thedenverchannel.com The only really useful part of that is if you don't have Internet access, you can see the live radar loops anytime. I guess it's also more interesting to watch local news loops than the same four stories from CNN over and over with talking heads, sometimes. I'm not sure what the CBS affiliate KCNC-4 is planning for their sub- channel(s), but I don't see anything on their website about it. Their transmitter supervisor is a Ham, and a good guy, I should ask him sometime when it's convenient. Also, NTIA is issuing $40 coupons toward converter boxes for SD TVs: https://www.dtv2009.gov/ -- if you qualify. I assume this means you have to say you don't have any pay TV services. I was trying to prove or disprove our local (Joplin, MO FOX station being simulcast on a DTV when they move, but I can't find it yet... aah. Here, I found that the CBS affiliate, currently on 7, will move to 13, and Fox, currently on 14, wants to coexist on 13, but hasn't gotten approval yet... Around here, it literally took an act of Congress to get our DTV tower up on the same mountain that TV has broadcast from since the 50's. http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/ There's a NIMBY group still fighting the Constitutionality of that particular maneuver, but the tower and shared 20,000 sq. ft. building for ABC, NBC, and CBS and what used to be UPN (I don't know what they are now, they're called My 20 now...) is already under construction on the mountain, and once the DTV tower is up, 4 other smaller towers are coming down as part of the deal. Here's the NIMBY group's website, for a good laugh. Especially anything to do with RF engineering -- they're utterly clueless. http://www.c-a-r-e.org/ It's totally out of control, and has been for years. Making a few lawyers a lot of money, though. That's always a given, nowadays. Fox-31 KDVR and the TBS affiliate KWGN-2 put gear on other towers elsewhere. ABC, NBC, CBS, and UPN have all been broadcasting their DTV signals at extremely reduced power levels from a Downtown building, which gives all of them pretty wimpy coverage into the suburbs and the rest of the Front Range corridor. All are being sued in one form or another by the NIMBY group. The City of Golden, CO has been involved on and off in the fight over the tower. The Coors family (Coors Brewery is in Golden, CO) either really agrees that they don't want the tower, or there was pressure to support the city or face zoning problems later when/if the brewery needed to expand. The Congressional law tactic sure got them out of the fire, if there was behind the scenes pressure, and we're all glad Pete Coors didn't win his Senate bid if he really didn't want a sane single super-tower on the same mountain TV's always been on around here. Some early proposals had the broadcasters moving to sites that were traditionally only 2-way sites, and repeaters and other users on those sites would have had an RF ultra-mess to deal with... broadcast being segregated from 2-way, most of the RF engineers around here that I've talked to seem to think it'd be a good idea to keep it that way. A rare treat. So, there may be more content, but station WXYZ will still use the full 6 MHz. If my local area is any indication, they will simply add channels such as full time traffic and WX. (like you need 6 channels of WX forecasts) My guess would be that the additional channels aren't all that useful yet to the broadcasters, until the change-over happens and the majority of folks are receiving all of the channels. I doubt the additional channels will be carried by the dish folks due to bandwidth limitations, but local cable companies seem to be carrying at least a few of these sub-channels from the locals. It'll be interesting if they ever find anything more useful than continuous weather/news/commercials to put on them. So far, I like NBC's 1080i standard better than the 720p standard most of the others are going with, whether or not I can really see it on my medium-sized LCD panel or it's all in my head. There's going
