Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Your wishes are nedit, xfe, *gqview* and rxvt-unicode Small correction: for an even smaller pic viewer, there is *gpicview*, also available through EPEL5. I'm not a big fan of it, but for consistency reasons... (the RPM is 70k). R-C __ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Radu-Cristian FOTESCU wrote: Because the RHEL RPMs tend to become bigger and bigger the SL53 mini_livecd will be around 285MB, which is still reasonable small, I think. As long as a normal CD has to be used... I have shrunken it down to 267MB and added nedit ;-) New RC is mini_livecd_SL53_2009-03-26.iso Urs
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Radu-Cristian FOTESCU wrote: May idea was not to have too many packages on the LiveCD which are not part of SL. Since they will be never updated later, if the LiveCD is installed or maybe even worse, they will break future updates of an installed LiveCD. Well, the idea was that you _would/could_ convince the others to *add* them as part of SL! -- gqview and rxvt-unicode are in EPEL, they could be trusted enough, and rebuilding them for SL shouldn't be a pain. (Normally, EPEL doesn't always mix well with Rpmforge AFAIK, so it shouldn't be enabled on a regular basis.) -- xfe depends on fox-1.6, which doesn't evolve. Both of them could be rebuilt for SL, tested by several people (they're stable and they *do* work), and rebuilt for SL5.4, etc. IMHO, the SL team has added to SL packages that are much more trickier than these two! As the person who ends up maintaining all those packages that get put in, I believe I will comment. Just putting packages in at random by random people just doesn't make sense. You might not have noticed that you've already changed your mind three times in your e-mails as to what packages you want, and your list just keeps growing. That is the reason that we have atrpms and the dag repositories installed by default. They are not enabled by default, but they are there so that you can enable them quickly. You can also add the EPEL repository with one command yum install yum-conf-epel and then you can install any package from EPEL that you want with no problem at all. Testing out new packages and getting your machine the way you want it is great. That's what we want. But asking for every package that you want to be in the main SL distribution is not the way to do it. Every package we add, adds work to us, and not just one time work, but work for 5 to 7 years in the future as we maintain that package. Thanks Troy -- __ Troy Dawson daw...@fnal.gov (630)840-6468 Fermilab ComputingDivision/LCSI/CSI LMSS Group __
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
On Thu, 2009-03-26 at 08:56 -0500, Troy Dawson wrote: But asking for every package that you want to be in the main SL distribution is not the way to do it. Every package we add, adds work to us, and not just one time work, but work for 5 to 7 years in the future as we maintain that package. I would like to add my two cents. We are currently in the process of switching to SL from the vendor who shall not be named. We've chosen SL because it closely resembles the original distribution. We have hardware and software that only supports this flavour of Linux. Any deviation could lead us into a situation where we get no support from our vendors should an incompatibility arise (particularly if it works fine with the original). Most people using the Enterprise Linux (EL) line of distros are doing so because they want a stable Linux operating system that will be supported for many years. The third-party repos are there to provide additional functionality _if_ you choose to deviate from the base. Quite frankly, if you are looking for a Linux distro that has all the latest bells and whistles packed in one nice container then EL is probably not for you; consider Fedora or Ubuntu (or one of the many other distributions) instead. Chris
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Just putting packages in at random by random people just doesn't make sense. I agree. It was however about the idea of making something more out of the mini_livecd, which is already unique to SL. You might not have noticed that you've already changed your mind three times in your e-mails as to what packages you want It was not 3 times. It was only once, when I specified a different image viewer. The rest was QUESTIONS/OBSERVATIONS (e.g. is wicd worth, generally speaking? and in the context where SL is the only clone to care about WiFi?) and your list just keeps growing. Sorry, it does not. It only tried to address an increased usability of the mini_livecd: -- nedit, which was initially a SL addition, and now also embraced by TUV. -- a lightweight/non-GNOME graphical file manager. Most likely/suggested, Xfe. I don't know of anything else already available for EL5. -- a lightweight image viewer. Should be useful even when using the mini_livecd as an emergency tool. I normally prefer gThumb, but as the mini_livecd doesn't include GNOME, and as I was not very familiar with the alternatives already available in EPEL, I hesitated. That's 3 applications (1 part of SL), or 4 packages (Xfe reqs FOX). Oh, should I change my mind and suggest to add on the mini_livecd Gcalculator? (It's already part of SL.) Is it so wrong to think of usability? That is the reason that we have atrpms and the dag repositories installed by default. They are not enabled by default, but ... You can also add the EPEL repository with one command yum install yum-conf-epel and then you can install any package from EPEL that you want with no problem at all. Sorry, I _always_ run into problems at some point when mixing atrpms+dag+epel! This is why I _always_ disable them after getting the additions I need. But asking for every package that you want to be in the main SL distribution is not the way to do it. I was _suggesting_, not asking. I was trying to make a point: -- the mini_livecd /could/ become much more useful, almost a complete LiveCD, with little effort; -- as it's about ~3 packages from outside SL (gpicview/gqview, xfe, fox) and ~2 packages part of SL (nedit, gcalculator), and given that Xfe (or whatever you prefer) is _not_ available from dag/atrpms/epel, I thought that you might be considering to add those ~3 packages to SL, for making them available to people who install from the normal media. Of course, I suppose that most of the packages that were added in the past to SL were a necessity for the several laboratories who were using SL or Fermi. Still, you also include specific SL customizations that were the sovereign decision of your (small) team, based on the fact that you've judged them a useful addition, even to a clone that normally tracks as close as possible TUV. I'm sorry that my intervention only raised rejection. Of course, everyone is free to make unofficial spins of the mini_livecd, but only the SL project has storage space and mirrors. That's the whole point. Best regards, Radu-Cristian __ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
We've chosen SL because it closely resembles the original distribution. We have hardware and software that only supports this flavour of Linux. Any deviation could lead us into a situation where we get no support Sorry to say, but CentOS is 100% cloning TUV, and StartCom AS is 99.999% like TUV. SL has quite a lot of additions (read the relnotes)! But, given the exact packages, I don't see how could they affect your compatibility! Quite frankly, if you are looking for a Linux distro that has all the latest bells and whistles Quite frankly, I am not looking for that. Cheers, R-C
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Regarding Issue #2: Try looking in /etc/gdm/custom.conf for lines beginning with AutomaticLoginEnable AutomaticLogin Steven Yellin On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Radu-Cristian Fotescu wrote: Folks, I might be polluting this list, but I'm having several questions and observations, so I thought that sending a mail to Urs wouldn't be the bes t choice. I was looking for a *reliable* Linux distro that would work fast with a 8-y.o. low-end laptop (HP Omnibook XE3, Celeron-128k, 850 MHz, 256 MB RAM PC-100, slow CD-ROM). Believe me or not, after having tried and ditched (or just ditched) sever al lightweight distros, I've found SL 5.2 mini_livecd with IceWM as bein g remarkably fast and light, and this... even as a LiveCD! ... ... ** Issue #2: Maybe I'm dumb, but the installed system was with autologin on sluser. As I am not used with autologins under Linux, I pathetically fail ed to change this behavior. What should I have done? Can't this default behavior be changed? ...
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Hi, Thanks for the feedback. It is a bit long, but it is some good feedback. If you don't mind, I'm going to snip some parts, and just answer the parts that I quickly know the answer to. Radu-Cristian Fotescu wrote: ... ** Question #1: Can one perform an X install with IceWM by only using the disc1? (SL.53.031909.CD.i386.disc1.iso) No, icewm is rarely on disk1. ** Issue #2: Maybe I'm dumb, but the installed system was with autologin on sluser. As I am not used with autologins under Linux, I pathetically fail ed to change this behavior. What should I have done? Can't this default behavior be changed? You need to run gdmsetup and in the security tab you can change this behavior ** Issue #3: Performing the full 5.2-5.3 update retrieves the kernel 2.6.18-128, but xfs-2.6.18-128.1.1.el5.i686 is not pulled in, so booting the new kernel leads to a panic. Should I take it as a bug? I'm still working on the writeup for using yum to go from 5.2 (or newer) to 5.3. The problem with xfs is that it changed to xfs-filesystem, because people would try to install xfs and get xfs from xorg. Try yum install xfs-filesystem ** Issue #4: I noticed that on mini_livecd, IceWM has a limited menu, corresponding to the installed X apps. On the installed system, once I ad ded some more apps, only GIMP was automatically added to the IcewM menu. Is t his normal? I've seen on Debian a fully-populated IceWM menu! Should I force the reinstallation of IceWM from the repos, or should I install from the official CD-set (with Anaconda), would IceWM behave differently? It is the same icewm on the mini-cd as on the main distro. Our version of icewm doesn't have the gnome-menu's (actually, I don't think it's called gnome-menu's anymore, but I forget the new name). The reason is/was that when we compiled icewm with those menu's turned on, it pulled in all sorts of dependencies, and when you tried to install it, instead of the install being less than 1 Meg, it was 20 Meg. ... P.S. Is SL 5.3 Live planned to happen any time ever? Hopefully it will be up by the end of the week. -- __ Troy Dawson daw...@fnal.gov (630)840-6468 Fermilab ComputingDivision/LCSI/CSI LMSS Group __
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
I have almost these exact specs, except mine is a P3 and not a celeron. I use Xubuntu (xfce) and have found it a pleasure to use. -Mark Radu-Cristian Fotescu wrote: Folks, I might be polluting this list, but I'm having several questions and observations, so I thought that sending a mail to Urs wouldn't be the bes t choice. I was looking for a *reliable* Linux distro that would work fast with a 8-y.o. low-end laptop (HP Omnibook XE3, Celeron-128k, 850 MHz, 256 MB RAM PC-100, slow CD-ROM). ...snip...
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Hi, Good to hear that you like the SL mini_livecd. And thanks for the feedback! I will try to answers some of your questions. Maybe I will come back later with some more answers. The initial idea of the mini_livecd was that it should fit on a real Mini-CD (about 210MB). (I don't know, if you still can buy such Mini CDs?) Because the RHEL RPMs tend to become bigger and bigger the SL53 mini_livecd will be around 285MB, which is still reasonable small, I think. My plan is to release the SL53 LiveCD/DVDs end of this week. So I don't want to change it too much. You find the RC of the mini_livecd in http://www.livecd.ethz.ch/download/testing/53/i386/. Feel free to test it. ** Question #2: Urs, could the script be modified (e.g. for mini_livecd_SL53) to accept a CLI parameter to specify the filesystem typ e? Good idea. But maybe not for this release. As you have described in your blog, it's possible to change the the script to make it work with xfs. I will put this request on my todo list. By the way, the LiveCD installer (livecd-install and livecd-install-gui script) was a one-day hack. And of course it can be improved. I know that other LiveCDs have a much fancier installer. To everybody: feel free to contribute. ** Issue #2: Maybe I'm dumb, but the installed system was with autologin on sluser. As I am not used with autologins under Linux, I pathetically fail ed to change this behavior. What should I have done? Can't this default behavior be changed? yes. I did this auto login feature some time ago. If I remember correctly, you have to change the following things to disable it: 1. set default runlevel to 5. In /etc/inittab change id:3:initdefault: to id:5:initdefault: 2. Install login manager, like gdm, if not yet done 2. in /etc/inittab set line to 6:2345:respawn:/sbin/mingetty tty6. Remove --autologin sluser 3. in ~/.bashrc of root and sluser remove line if [ $( tty ) = /dev/tty6 ]; then startx; fi 4. remove(?) ~/.xinitrc ~/.xsession for root and sluser? I hope this is all. And no guaranty that's working. I guess I should provide a simple script to disable it - it's on my todo list now. ** Question #3: Urs, as the mini_livecd is very small and light, could yo u make (a future version of it) more usable by adding nedit on it, especial ly that nedit is now provided by the TUV itself? (Nedit is only on the LiveD VD.) Maybe not for SL53 release. But why not creating an enhanced mini_livecd later or release a second edition of SL53 mini_livecd later. So, discussion is open. What should go to the mini LiveCD? Your wishes are nedit, xfe, gqview and rxvt-unicode (and maybe mp3blaster) May idea was not to have too many packages on the LiveCD which are not part of SL. Since they will be never updated later, if the LiveCD is installed or maybe even worse, they will break future updates of an installed LiveCD. and it's not clear to me from www.livecd.ethz.ch if I would have whatever necessary (scripts, the step-by-step livecd building procedure) to cook my own spin of something like mini_livecd_SL53. If you follow the instruction on http://www.livecd.ethz.ch/build.html, it should be quite easy to build your own LiveCD. However, instructions can be always improved ;-) Cheers, Urs
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Because the RHEL RPMs tend to become bigger and bigger the SL53 mini_livecd will be around 285MB, which is still reasonable small, I think. As long as a normal CD has to be used... http://www.livecd.ethz.ch/download/testing/53/i386/. Thanks. I know that other LiveCDs have a much fancier installer. To everybody: feel free to contribute. Provided that there will be an updated/enh. mini_livecd_SL53 later... (to motivate people). 2. Install login manager, like gdm, if not yet done Why install it if it's not there and it's not needed?! Oh, it's needed... if autologin is off! Your wishes are nedit, xfe, gqview and rxvt-unicode (and maybe mp3blaster) Let's drop mp3blaster. I'd install gxine anyway, except on the live system :-) May idea was not to have too many packages on the LiveCD which are not part of SL. Since they will be never updated later, if the LiveCD is installed or maybe even worse, they will break future updates of an installed LiveCD. Well, the idea was that you _would/could_ convince the others to *add* them as part of SL! -- gqview and rxvt-unicode are in EPEL, they could be trusted enough, and rebuilding them for SL shouldn't be a pain. (Normally, EPEL doesn't always mix well with Rpmforge AFAIK, so it shouldn't be enabled on a regular basis.) -- xfe depends on fox-1.6, which doesn't evolve. Both of them could be rebuilt for SL, tested by several people (they're stable and they *do* work), and rebuilt for SL5.4, etc. IMHO, the SL team has added to SL packages that are much more trickier than these two! I have a sudden nostalgia for the old-style X apps, and xfe fits the picture, now that I rediscovered IceWM ;-) If you follow the instruction on http://www.livecd.ethz.ch/build.html, it should be quite easy to build your own LiveCD. I should be at a different hour and use some coffee to make sure I follow them! Keep up the good work, the mini_livecd was such a surprise discovery! Oh, and let's hope there will be updated/enhanced editions of mini_livecd_SL53! I'll try to find some time to think of how I could help... Cheers, R-C __ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca
Re: SL 5.3 with IceWM from SL 5.2 mini_livecd (long post)
Your wishes are nedit, xfe, gqview and rxvt-unicode Of course, I forgot about WiCD! Everybody uses it nowadays! I don't use wifi, so I couldn't tell, but is it needed? Is it so very gorgeous? Would it be a significant addition to usability? R-C __ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
