Re: EoT diagram
Hi Bob, If you have a look at the Jules Audemars Equation of Time watch movement in my link you will see a kidney piece. Roderick Wall. From: Robert Terwilliger Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 9:43 AM To: 'R Wall' ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: EoT diagram Roderick, The eot watch your link produced does not seem to be mechanical – hence no kidney piece. Google movement equation of time watch Then try the images Here’s one http://www.breguet.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/equation-of-time/3646-5-eng-GB/Equation-of-time.jpg Bob From: R Wall [mailto:maill...@virginbroadband.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:06 PM To: Robert Terwilliger; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi again, This is a good link on EOT and watches http://www.timezone..com/extras/200711101492 Roderick Wall. From: R Wall Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:08 AM To: Robert Terwilliger ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi all, After sending my last email. I thought I should have 1st searched the Internet before sending it: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=treegoto=5710449rid=0 Note: scroll down to the larger photo. Looks as if the outer EOT ring can be adjusted (turned) to have the current EOT month at the top 12 o’clock position. And there are other “sun” information, what I’m not sure. By the way ChiLan, I think your time scale is the wrong way around. “+” should be “-“ and “-“ should be “+”. Roderick Wall. From: R Wall Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:18 AM To: Robert Terwilliger ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi ChiLian and Robert, Thanks ChiLan, your EOT curve is interesting. I suppose anything to do with sundials has a high chance of being invented before as sundials have been around for a long time. Robert, the kidney shape cam in the watch is interesting, is this watch still in production and can it be purchased. I’ve never seen a watch with EOT indication. Thanks, Roderick Wall. From: Robert Terwilliger Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 5:55 AM To: clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: EoT diagram The equation graph projected on a circle is used as a kidney piece cam in a watch movement that can indicate the equation. Here is a picture of the gear carrying the kidney piece. It turns once a year. http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/decorte/gyro2/gyro2_3.jpg Bob From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Chiu ?,Chi lian Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:11 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: EoT diagram Hi, I figured out a way to plot EoT curve which I didn't see in sundial books I own. Diagram is enclosed here. For a better resolution one, see http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31382133/EoT%20.png Best regards, ChiLian 24.8N 121E --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3716 - Release Date: 06/20/11 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3716 - Release Date: 06/20/11 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3716 - Release Date: 06/20/11 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3716 - Release Date: 06/20/11 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: How to force spreadsheet to create printable graph with same scalein X and Y?
Hi Steve: I don’t think there is a specific command to do that in Excel (don’t know about Open Office) but I understand you can do it in Excel by using VBA. Have a look at this page: http://peltiertech.com/Excel/Charts/SquareGrid.html Incidentally this Jon Peltier site has a wealth of other tips and tricks... Regards Patrick From: Steve Lelievre Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 12:29 AM To: Sundial List Subject: How to force spreadsheet to create printable graph with same scalein X and Y? Hi, I sometimes use a spreadsheet to calculate a series of X,Y points, and then use these points to create a scattergram chart. My problem is that whenever I do this, the chart appears on the screen as a rectangle. The X and Y dimensions aren't to the same scale. I have to set the gridline intervals to be the same for X and Y and then adjust the chart so that the shape looks OK on screen. My problem is that even if the chart grid appears to be in good proportion on the screen, it's only as good as my eyes. What I really want is to print an accurate diagram that I can use as an experimental dial. In short, I want the printed chart to be on a square grid that is really square. Can anyone explain to me how to force the spreadsheet software to use absolute distances for a printed chart's axes? Alternatively, a way to force equal gridline spacing would be equally as helpful. I use both OpenOffice and Excel - an answer for either one will be much appreciated. Cheers, Steve --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: EoT diagram
Chi Lian It's good to see someone thinking about the EoT ! And to other contributors, many thanks for your additions concerning watches and clocks, which I was most interested to see If you visit www.PreciseDirections.co.uk Click on the Sundials link and then click the last item on the list there Representing the EoT, you will find a number of curves representing EoT, including both the kidney polar curve and it's 'intrinsic' counterpart. The later - with equal spacing between points is marginally easier to read, but is no use for mechanical devices. The problem with the kidney curve - mechanically sound though it is - is that it is just plain UGLY. Also it fails my test, which is does it teach anything about the sun, astronomy and sundials? The answer, I think, is Not much. So I prefer mechanical representations of the EoT which generate the two components (obliquity and eccentricity) visibly and separately and then recombine them. (The second and fifth item on my sundials web page, mentioned above, are movies showing these in operation) However, the master of all mechanical EoT generators must be the device in the Strassburg cathedral clock. I cannot find a web picture of this, but I have posted a not-very-clear photo of it at the above web-site Best regards Kevin Karney Freedom Cottage, Llandogo, Monmouth NP25 4TP, Wales, UK 51° 44' N 2° 41' W Zone 0 + 44 1594 530 595 On 21 Jun 2011, at 17:11, Chiu 邱,Chi lian wrote: Hi, I figured out a way to plot EoT curve which I didn't see in sundial books I own. Diagram is enclosed here. For a better resolution one, see http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31382133/EoT%20.png Best regards, ChiLian 24.8N 121E EoT_S .png--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: EoT diagram
With reference to this photo: http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/decorte/gyro2/gyro2_3.jpg David Bell [mailto:db...@thebells.net] wrote: I see how the kidney piece works, but what's with the oddly shaped Month wheel? It indicates the number of days in the given month. If the timepiece was a perpetual calendar there must have been some additional mechanism for February. Bob _ From: David Bell [mailto:db...@thebells.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:51 PM To: Robert Terwilliger Cc: clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram I see how the kidney piece works, but what's with the oddly shaped Month wheel? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 21, 2011, at 12:55 PM, Robert Terwilliger b...@twigsdigs.com wrote: The equation graph projected on a circle is used as a kidney piece cam in a watch movement that can indicate the equation. Here is a picture of the gear carrying the kidney piece. It turns once a year. http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/decorte/gyro2/gyro2_3.jpg http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/decorte/gyro2/gyro2_3.jpg Bob _ From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Chiu ?,Chi lian Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:11 PM To: mailto:sundial@uni-koeln.de sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: EoT diagram Hi, I figured out a way to plot EoT curve which I didn't see in sundial books I own. Diagram is enclosed here. For a better resolution one, see http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31382133/EoT%20.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31382133/EoT%20.png Best regards, ChiLian 24.8N 121E --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: How to force spreadsheet to create printable graph with same scale in X and Y?
Hi Steve: It's one of the reasons why I prefer to use gnuplot, rather than Excel, for some plotting tasks. Gnuplot is dead easy to use and comes in different flavours for different operating systems: http://www.gnuplot.info/ -- Richard On 21-Jun-11, at 8:29 PM, Steve Lelievre wrote: Hi, I sometimes use a spreadsheet to calculate a series of X,Y points, and then use these points to create a scattergram chart. My problem is that whenever I do this, the chart appears on the screen as a rectangle. The X and Y dimensions aren't to the same scale. I have to set the gridline intervals to be the same for X and Y and then adjust the chart so that the shape looks OK on screen. My problem is that even if the chart grid appears to be in good proportion on the screen, it's only as good as my eyes. What I really want is to print an accurate diagram that I can use as an experimental dial. In short, I want the printed chart to be on a square grid that is really square. Can anyone explain to me how to force the spreadsheet software to use absolute distances for a printed chart's axes? Alternatively, a way to force equal gridline spacing would be equally as helpful. I use both OpenOffice and Excel - an answer for either one will be much appreciated. Cheers, Steve --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial - | Richard B. LangleyE-mail: l...@unb.ca | | Geodetic Research Laboratory Web: http://www.unb.ca/GGE/ | | Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506 453-5142 | | University of New Brunswick Fax: +1 506 453-4943 | | Fredericton, N.B., Canada E3B 5A3| |Fredericton? Where's that? See: http:// www.fredericton.ca/ | - --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: EoT diagram
Hi Kevin, The cam demonstration is great! And so are the other links and animations. Thanks for alerting us to you webpage. best wishes, Peter On 22/06/2011 19:58, Kevin Karney wrote: Chi Lian It's good to see someone thinking about the EoT ! And to other contributors, many thanks for your additions concerning watches and clocks, which I was most interested to see If you visit www.PreciseDirections.co.uk http://www.PreciseDirections.co.uk/ Click on the Sundials link and then click the last item on the list there Representing the EoT, you will find a number of curves representing EoT, including both the kidney polar curve and it's 'intrinsic' counterpart. The later - with equal spacing between points is marginally easier to read, but is no use for mechanical devices. The problem with the kidney curve - mechanically sound though it is - is that it is just plain UGLY. Also it fails my test, which is does it teach anything about the sun, astronomy and sundials? The answer, I think, is Not much. So I prefer mechanical representations of the EoT which generate the two components (obliquity and eccentricity) visibly and separately and then recombine them. (The second and fifth item on my sundials web page, mentioned above, are movies showing these in operation) However, the master of all mechanical EoT generators must be the device in the Strassburg cathedral clock. I cannot find a web picture of this, but I have posted a not-very-clear photo of it at the above web-site Best regards Kevin Karney Freedom Cottage, Llandogo, Monmouth NP25 4TP, Wales, UK 51° 44' N 2° 41' W Zone 0 + 44 1594 530 595 On 21 Jun 2011, at 17:11, Chiu 邱,Chi lian wrote: Hi, I figured out a way to plot EoT curve which I didn't see in sundial books I own. Diagram is enclosed here. For a better resolution one, see http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31382133/EoT%20.png Best regards, ChiLian 24.8N 121E EoT_S .png--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial -- -- Peter Mayer Politics Department The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005 Ph : +61 8 8303 5606 Fax : +61 8 8303 3443 e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au CRICOS Provider Number 00123M --- This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: EoT diagram
By the late 17th century, as clocks became more accurate, clockmakers struggled with the fact that they did not seem to tell true (solar) time. The Mercure de France in 1738 reported that “Many clockmakers find themselves exposed to criticisms of their methods by those who claim that their clocks are not accurate, since they do not agree with everybody’s favorite neighborhood sundial.” Some attempts were made to force mechanical clocks to adapt to true time. The first true time clocks, designed by the English clockmaker Groton, appeared in London around 1692. William III gave one of them as a present to Charles II of Spain. Clockmakers presented papers to the French Royal Academy of Science on the subject. Several well known clockmakers continued to produce real time clocks: One of these is shown in this illustration http://truesundials.com/real-time-clock.gif from Diderot’s Encyclopedia. The mechanism included a kidney-piece cam for the equation, and a dial with two hands, one golden showing a sun for true time and another steel for mean time. Some of these clocks can be seen at the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers in Paris. Jack From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of R Wall Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:19 PM To: Robert Terwilliger; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi Bob, If you have a look at the Jules Audemars Equation of Time watch movement in my link you will see a kidney piece. Roderick Wall. From: Robert mailto:b...@twigsdigs.com Terwilliger Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 9:43 AM To: 'R Wall' mailto:maill...@virginbroadband.com.au ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: EoT diagram Roderick, The eot watch your link produced does not seem to be mechanical – hence no kidney piece. Google movement equation of time watch Then try the images Here’s one http://www.breguet.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/equation-of-time/3646-5-eng-GB/Equation-of-time.jpg Bob _ From: R Wall [mailto:maill...@virginbroadband.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:06 PM To: Robert Terwilliger; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi again, This is a good link on EOT and watches http://www.timezone..com/extras/200711101492 http://www.timezone.com/extras/200711101492 Roderick Wall. From: R Wall mailto:maill...@virginbroadband.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:08 AM To: Robert Terwilliger mailto:b...@twigsdigs.com ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi all, After sending my last email. I thought I should have 1st searched the Internet before sending it: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=treegoto=5710449rid=0 goto=5710449rid=0 Note: scroll down to the larger photo. Looks as if the outer EOT ring can be adjusted (turned) to have the current EOT month at the top 12 o’clock position. And there are other “sun” information, what I’m not sure. By the way ChiLan, I think your time scale is the wrong way around. “+” should be “-“ and “-“ should be “+”. Roderick Wall. From: R Wall mailto:maill...@virginbroadband.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:18 AM To: Robert Terwilliger mailto:b...@twigsdigs.com ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi ChiLian and Robert, Thanks ChiLan, your EOT curve is interesting. I suppose anything to do with sundials has a high chance of being invented before as sundials have been around for a long time. Robert, the kidney shape cam in the watch is interesting, is this watch still in production and can it be purchased. I’ve never seen a watch with EOT indication. Thanks, Roderick Wall. From: Robert Terwilliger mailto:b...@twigsdigs.com Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 5:55 AM To: clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: EoT diagram The equation graph projected on a circle is used as a kidney piece cam in a watch movement that can indicate the equation. Here is a picture of the gear carrying the kidney piece. It turns once a year. http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/decorte/gyro2/gyro2_3.jpg Bob _ From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Chiu ?,Chi lian Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:11 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: EoT diagram Hi, I figured out a way to plot EoT curve which I didn't see in sundial books I own. Diagram is enclosed here. For a better resolution one, see http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31382133/EoT%20.png Best regards, ChiLian 24.8N 121E _ --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial _ No virus found in this
Re: EoT diagram
Hi Jack, Now that’s interesting. I didn’t know there was such a clock as a “Real-time-clock”. I did know that clock makers had included a small sundial with their clocks to allow the owner to adjust their clocks. To do that they must have had a copy of the Equation Of Time. Thanks very much for the information about the Real-Time-Clock. Roderick Wall. From: Jack Aubert Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:17 AM To: 'R Wall' ; 'Robert Terwilliger' ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: EoT diagram By the late 17th century, as clocks became more accurate, clockmakers struggled with the fact that they did not seem to tell true (solar) time. The Mercure de France in 1738 reported that “Many clockmakers find themselves exposed to criticisms of their methods by those who claim that their clocks are not accurate, since they do not agree with everybody’s favorite neighborhood sundial.” Some attempts were made to force mechanical clocks to adapt to true time. The first true time clocks, designed by the English clockmaker Groton, appeared in London around 1692. William III gave one of them as a present to Charles II of Spain. Clockmakers presented papers to the French Royal Academy of Science on the subject. Several well known clockmakers continued to produce real time clocks: One of these is shown in this illustration http://truesundials.com/real-time-clock.gif from Diderot’s Encyclopedia. The mechanism included a kidney-piece cam for the equation, and a dial with two hands, one golden showing a sun for true time and another steel for mean time. Some of these clocks can be seen at the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers in Paris. Jack From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of R Wall Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:19 PM To: Robert Terwilliger; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi Bob, If you have a look at the Jules Audemars Equation of Time watch movement in my link you will see a kidney piece. Roderick Wall. From: Robert Terwilliger Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 9:43 AM To: 'R Wall' ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: EoT diagram Roderick, The eot watch your link produced does not seem to be mechanical – hence no kidney piece. Google movement equation of time watch Then try the images Here’s one http://www.breguet.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/equation-of-time/3646-5-eng-GB/Equation-of-time.jpg Bob From: R Wall [mailto:maill...@virginbroadband.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:06 PM To: Robert Terwilliger; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi again, This is a good link on EOT and watches http://www.timezone...com/extras/200711101492 Roderick Wall. From: R Wall Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:08 AM To: Robert Terwilliger ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi all, After sending my last email. I thought I should have 1st searched the Internet before sending it: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=treegoto=5710449rid=0 Note: scroll down to the larger photo. Looks as if the outer EOT ring can be adjusted (turned) to have the current EOT month at the top 12 o’clock position. And there are other “sun” information, what I’m not sure. By the way ChiLan, I think your time scale is the wrong way around. “+” should be “-“ and “-“ should be “+”. Roderick Wall. From: R Wall Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:18 AM To: Robert Terwilliger ; clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: EoT diagram Hi ChiLian and Robert, Thanks ChiLan, your EOT curve is interesting. I suppose anything to do with sundials has a high chance of being invented before as sundials have been around for a long time. Robert, the kidney shape cam in the watch is interesting, is this watch still in production and can it be purchased. I’ve never seen a watch with EOT indication. Thanks, Roderick Wall. From: Robert Terwilliger Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 5:55 AM To: clc...@mx.nthu.edu.tw ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: EoT diagram The equation graph projected on a circle is used as a kidney piece cam in a watch movement that can indicate the equation. Here is a picture of the gear carrying the kidney piece. It turns once a year. http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/decorte/gyro2/gyro2_3.jpg Bob From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Chiu ?,Chi lian Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:11 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: EoT diagram Hi, I figured out a way to plot EoT curve which
