[Biofuel] Brine Wash
I've read about using brine for the washing process and tried a couple test batches with it yesterday. My biggest concern is that some residual salt will be left over in the biodiesel somewhere. Even though salt supposedly will not dissolve in biodiesel, some could be attached to left-over impurities, including residual water. Does anybody have experience using brine washed biodiesel, or is it just a bad idea? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
x-richKurt postulates: Plus, wars of aggression don't usually result in the winning side voluntarily and immediately giving the country back over to its inhabitants; usually you fight an aggressive war to expand your own borders. First, you assume we're the winning side, and I'm sure there are those that will and can make a very good case we have NOT given the country back to its inhabitants. That government is a flimsy sham and we continue to occupy that country. Second, define expanding borders - how about expanding the borders of our military base placements around the middle east, how about expanding control of or interest in the borders of world oil supplies. We want military control over the world for our corporate backers - a pretty expansive 'border' if you ask me. Attacking and destroying a country that is not a threat to you IS the very essence of a war of aggression. ...and we're guilty as all f**k! EVERY American needs to understand that this is OUR war ultimately and we should own that, and stop the war before it destroys everything this country holds dear and creates even more death and havoc. Then we need to do some very deep soul searching and some major work world-wide to attempt to redeem our sorry selves! Doug The end of democracy and the defeat of the American revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending institutions and moneyed incorporations. smaller-President Thomas Jefferson (a founder of America in condemnation of cartel power. 1743-1826)/smaller /x-rich ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] No Child Left Unquestioned by Homeland Security!!
ãAfter four years more in this office I want people to look back and say, ÎThe world is a more peaceful place,âä Mr. Bush told supporters at a community college in Iowa. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/20/politics/main630752.shtml "No Child Left Behind"? Civics Student...or Enemy of America? By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive. Posted October 7, 2005. http://www.alternet.org/walmart/26503/#thumbtack Selina Jarvis is the chair of the social studies department at Currituck County High School in North Carolina, and she is not used to having the Secret Service question her or one of her students. But that's what happened on September 20. Jarvis had assigned her senior civics and economics class "to take photographs to illustrate their rights in the Bill of Rights," she says. One student "had taken a photo of George Bush out of a magazine and tacked the picture to a wall with a red thumb tack through his head. Then he made a thumb's-down sign with his own hand next to the President's picture, and he had a photo taken of that, and he pasted it on a poster." According to Jarvis, the student, who remains anonymous, was just doing his assignment, illustrating the right to dissent. But over at the Kitty Hawk Wal-Mart, where the student took his film to be developed, this right is evidently suspect. An employee in that Wal-Mart photo department called the Kitty Hawk police on the student. And the Kitty Hawk police turned the matter over to the Secret Service. On Tuesday, September 20, the Secret Service came to Currituck High. "At 1:35, the student came to me and told me that the Secret Service had taken his poster," Jarvis says. "I didn't believe him at first. But they had come into my room when I wasn't there and had taken his poster, which was in a stack with all the others." She says the student was upset. "He was nervous, he was scared, and his parents were out of town on business," says Jarvis. She, too, had to talk to the Secret Service. "Halfway through my afternoon class, the assistant principal got me out of class and took me to the office conference room," she says. "Two men from the Secret Service were there. They asked me what I knew about the student. I told them he was a great kid, that he was in the homecoming court, and that he'd never been in any trouble." Then they got down to his poster. "They asked me, didn't I think that it was suspicious," she recalls. "I said no, it was a Bill of Rights project!" At the end of the meeting, they told her the incident "would be interpreted by the U.S. attorney, who would decide whether the student could be indicted," she says. The student was not indicted, and the Secret Service did not pursue the case further. "I blame Wal-Mart more than anybody," she says. "I was really disgusted with them. But everyone was using poor judgment, from Wal-Mart up to the Secret Service." When contacted, an employee in the photo department at the Wal-Mart in Kitty Hawk said, "You have to call either the home office or the authorities to get any information about that." Jacquie Young, a spokesperson for Wal-Mart at company headquarters, did not provide comment within a 24-hour period. Sharon Davenport of the Kitty Hawk Police Department said, "We just handed it over" to the Secret Service. "No investigative report was filed." Jonathan Scherry, spokesman for the Secret Service in Washington, D.C., said, "We certainly respect artistic freedom, but we also have the responsibility to look into incidents when necessary. In this case, it was brought to our attention from a private citizen, a photo lab employee." Jarvis uses one word to describe the whole incident: "ridiculous." Matthew Rothschild is the editor of The Progressive. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Hello All, I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] No Child Left Unquestioned by Homeland Security!!
JMichael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ãAfter four years more in this office I want people to look back and say, ÎThe world is a more peaceful place,âä Mr. Bush told supporters at a community college in Iowa. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/20/politics/main630752.shtml "No Child Left Behind"? Civics Student...or Enemy of America? By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive. Posted October 7, 2005. http://www.alternet.org/walmart/26503/#thumbtack Selina Jarvis is the chair of the social studies department at Currituck County High School in North Carolina, and she is not used to having the Secret Service question her or one of her students. But that's what happened on September 20. Jarvis had assigned her senior civics and economics class "to take photographs to illustrate their rights in the Bill of Rights," she says. One student "had taken a photo of George Bush out of a magazine and tacked the picture to a wall with a red thumb tack through his head. Then he made a thumb's-down sign with his own hand next to the President's picture, and he had a photo taken of that, and he pasted it on a poster." According to Jarvis, the student, who remains anonymous, was just doing his assignment, illustrating the right to dissent. But over at the Kitty Hawk Wal-Mart, where the student took his film to be developed, this right is evidently suspect. An employee in that Wal-Mart photo department called the Kitty Hawk police on the student. And the Kitty Hawk police turned the matter over to the Secret Service. On Tuesday, September 20, the Secret Service came to Currituck High. "At 1:35, the student came to me and told me that the Secret Service had taken his poster," Jarvis says. "I didn't believe him at first. But they had come into my room when I wasn't there and had taken his poster, which was in a stack with all the others." She says the student was upset. "He was nervous, he was scared, and his parents were out of town on business," says Jarvis. She, too, had to talk to the Secret Service. "Halfway through my afternoon class, the assistant principal got me out of class and took me to the office conference room," she says. "Two men from the Secret Service were there. They asked me what I knew about the student. I told them he was a great kid, that he was in the homecoming court, and that he'd never been in any trouble." Then they got down to his poster. "They asked me, didn't I think that it was suspicious," she recalls. "I said no, it was a Bill of Rights project!" At the end of the meeting, they told her the incident "would be interpreted by the U.S. attorney, who would decide whether the student could be indicted," she says. The student was not indicted, and the Secret Service did not pursue the case further. "I blame Wal-Mart more than anybody," she says. "I was really disgusted with them. But everyone was using poor judgment, from Wal-Mart up to the Secret Service." When contacted, an employee in the photo department at the Wal-Mart in Kitty Hawk said, "You have to call either the home office or the authorities to get any information about that." Jacquie Young, a spokesperson for Wal-Mart at company headquarters, did not provide comment within a 24-hour period. Sharon Davenport of the Kitty Hawk Police Department said, "We just handed it over" to the Secret Service. "No investigative report was filed." Jonathan Scherry, spokesman for the Secret Service in Washington, D.C., said, "We certainly respect artistic freedom, but we also have the responsibility to look into incidents when necessary. In this case, it was brought to our attention from a private citizen, a photo lab employee." Jarvis uses one word to describe the whole incident: "ridiculous." Matthew Rothschild is the editor of The Progressive. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Starting at Square One
The crying shame is that he has plans to, if he doesn't sell it, Put a Chevy 350 in it and make it run again. Idiot. It was a beautiful car besides the engine and mildew on the seats. Oh well. Peace -KurtOn 10/30/05, Buck Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: iff u examiane the seller satament, u can see thattt he is advertiisiangan autoo that he exapects not t be able to run,,, if he found outdiffeanernt, then it is plalinly worth more,,, you are dealin with a man who is plainly dishonest to his fouandation, no statemeant can be taken atface valuee froam this kind of person.. no action to sell is beneath hisssdigniaty,, he will sell what is nottt his, will tell aany sstoyry, best nooot ot conduct any transactoin with this kind of person,,, usually one wayor anaoahter , u will alwaysssbe sorry,, buck ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] What became of hydrogen from water inventors
There was a biofuel email a while back about what happened to the people who had invented inexpensive ways to get hydrogen energy from water. I tried to find it in the JTF archives, but could not. Does anyone know where to find it? I'd appreciate your help. Thanks, Marilyn ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas
for a silver bullet plant or the widespread introduction of one that is deemed better might choke out natural flora. Introduction of Jatropha looks like it would have a rather high potential for doing just that, since it grows in such a variety of soil conditions. I just have to look outside when I'm driving down the road to see an example of something similar: huge, huge tracts of nothing but the horrid kudzu vine. Imported into this area for the railroad system, it took hold rather well and thrived. It's also now threatening to choke off local vegetation, and even swallow homes; could Jatropha one day do this? Just my caution and pessimism. Peace -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What became of hydrogen
On Oct 30, 2005, at 11:23 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was a biofuel email a while back about what happened to the people who had invented inexpensive ways to get hydrogen energy from water. If there IS an inexpensive energy source to extract H2 from H20, it would be better to use it directly to produce electricity or heat, and forget about the H2. So much energy (and entropy) were already lost in making the H20 (think of it as hydrogen ash), its best to leave the water in that state. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
you can use the glycerine for other... shall we say nefarious purposes? (Such as powering a turbine generator, or similiar combustive measures to reuse your waste to feed the process... No I'm not stupid enough to try and go the nitroglycerin route, though I fear for a coworker of mine who has taken an interest in the process.)If you can do this, and Mr. Sharp's question about brine washing comes up positive, you could use the salt from this process to make your brine for washing... and then finally waste it through sewage or whatnot when it's finally been ultimately exhausted, instead of getting rid of potentially valuable products and also having to purchase salt for your brine. Just a thought. Peace -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What became of hydrogen
i have heard about using something like algae for hydrogren production. not sure what supplimental engery would be consumed maintaining the algae. but it sounds interesting On 10/31/2005, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 30, 2005, at 11:23 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was a biofuel email a while back about what happened to the people who had invented inexpensive ways to get hydrogen energy from water. If there IS an inexpensive energy source to extract H2 from H20, it would be better to use it directly to produce electricity or heat, and forget about the H2. So much energy (and entropy) were already lost in making the H20 (think of it as hydrogen ash), its best to leave the water in that state. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
First, you assume we're the winning side, and I'm sure there are thosethat will and can make a very good case we have NOT given the country back to its inhabitants. That government is a flimsy sham and wecontinue to occupy that country. Well, we're still in the country, we haven't retreated yet, the government we went over there to depose is no longer in as strong a position as it was, and we got the bad guy we were deposing. Objectives accomplished, that constitutes a win in my book. What is going on now is a whole different war, more in the nature of a rebellion against the new government and it's as yet still developing infrastructure. The American Government was a flimsy thing when she was first born too, it takes time. And are you saying we should pull out now? That, sir, would be the most irresponsible thing we could possibly do, bring all our troops home. We'd be leaving a mess we created behind, without even trying to clean it up. More people would die than are currently dying now, and the eventual government to emerge would be whomever could employ the most brutality to silence all competition. At least with our troops there we provide some vague semblence of security and the glimmer of peaceable government formation. The current Iraqi government is only a Flimsy Sham because of basic human greed; everyone wants a piece of the action in the new government. Everyone wants preferential treatment, to hell with those other groups. If they could actually sit down, work out their differences after checking the greed at the door, our men and women could be home by Christmas. But it's not going to happen, especially given that at least two of the opposing groups are in opposition on religious grounds. Religious groups, especially religious sects within the same overall denomination, rarely if ever agree on anything. But we put them in this situation, we have a responsibility to see them through to the end. I'm pretty sure they can't do worse than Saddam Hussein's dictatorial regime did. Or if they do, hey, it's time to try again from square one. Second, define expanding borders - how about expanding the borders ofour military base placements around the middle east, how about expanding control of or interest in the borders of world oil supplies.We want military control over the world for our corporate backers - apretty expansive 'border' if you ask me. Attacking and destroying a country that is not a threat to you IS thevery essence of a war of aggression. ...and we're guilty as all f**k! EVERY American needs to understandthat this is OUR war ultimately and we should own that, and stop thewar before it destroys everything this country holds dear and creates even more death and havoc. Just as a question put forth in a hypothetical situation: The UN decides to give the green light for a war to take out a regime that is openly committing human rights violations upon its own citizens. It is making no aggressive acts toward other nations, not threatening them at all, but they have made it clear that economic sanctions and other actions will only increase their atrocities. Is this a war of aggression? It's not a threat to any other country, so technically any country responding and participating in the sanctioned invasion and deposition would be committing, apparently, an international crime. Yet to stand there and do nothing, or to do something that will knowingly increase the atrocities, would be far worse in my opinion. Stop the war how? By pulling out? See above, concerning our responsibility. You may not agree with the reasons for the war in the first place, but I don't believe you can deny that we should take responsibility for cleaning up our own messes. Which means seeing this thing through to the end. Take control away from the politicians, give it to military commanders on the field who know what they need, and start issuing them what it takes. This includes Body Armor, upgraded HumVee armor kits, supplies, more troops (Yes, More, it's hard to cover an area the size of Virginia effectively with only two hundred troops, rooting out terrorist cells), send in more aid packages to help rebuild and salvage the more outlying and damaged cities and infrastructures, and yes start getting off our high pedestal and asking countries with more peace keeping experience to come help us train a new military and police force in Iraq. I hear very good things about Canadian Peacekeepers. I'm not saying that the war was right. I'm saying it's in the past, we need to get out of the past and in the present before we blunder our way into another mess. Pointing fingers and placing blame and performing acts of political evangelization does not save lives, neither does dwelling on the past. Action and responsibility in the here and now and forethought and deliberate caution in the future saves lives. Peace, may it come quickly -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] Montanas energy fut ure was US Montana’s energy future
Keith, Thanks for the reply. It truly frustrates me as it is so correct. I may have missed something but at the end you stated Methinks this is no longer a good survival model, there seem to be several meteorites headed its way. Oh, sorry, I forgot, you don't get meteorites on a Flat Earth do you, lots of dinosaurs, no meteorites (according to the dinosaurs). Please keep in mind I am rather naive and new at thinking in the terms of conservation and trying to do whats best to help make a changes that will serve more than myself. Yes I was and may still be to some extent more self serving than I should be, but at least I now have an awareness that I share my space and need to consider others. Any way you have my full attention. Well just for the record I understand the present system is on its way out to something worse before better, but what is the best way for an individual to go forward to effect positive change?? Thanks, Jim Keith Addison wrote: OK Mike, I went to, http://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/ and it says we do have a policy National Energy Policy to be exact, but you must be referring to hopelessly pathetic message it contains, if not that then perhaps the cryptic coded quote by our great leader that we can still have Yellowstone Park while we find more oil (who me worry?), or perhaps if we manipulate our clocks some more we can save the world,or or or well ok Mike your right We really don't have an energy policy, not even a failed one. ;-) Paying for the next election is top of the list for the politicians, cutting a bigger slice in the interdepartmental budget wars and office-politics territory battles is uppermost for the bureaucrats and oaf-icials, and for the corporations that own them all the next board meeting, the AGM and the bottom-line are all that count, and you want policy?? It would be quite nice I suppose. Japan doesn't do policy either, no actual policy on anything anywhere to be seen, policy is what emerges from mostly invisible horse-trading among powerful fiefdoms constantly jostling for position and defending their share of the spoils, whose thinking and goals are in no way representative of those of the community. The EU does policy, good or bad or both, so do China, India, Brazil, South Africa and a few others, and people like Chavez and Castro. Saudi Arabia et al's policy turns out to be a sham - having helped deliver the US election as promised it now emerges that the rumours are true that they haven't got the reserves anyway and neither has anyone else (like Shell), their policy's just a big slice of pie-in-the-sky. (See Matt Simmonds in the list archives.) Most of the rest of the world is just trying to survive, not enough options for much policy as such. Which leaves a whole bunch of rich industrialised countries with lots of window-dressing on the policy front but it's just a puppet show, like the US and Japan. Methinks this is no longer a good survival model, there seem to be several meteorites headed its way. Oh, sorry, I forgot, you don't get meteorites on a Flat Earth do you, lots of dinosaurs, no meteorites (according to the dinosaurs). Best Keith Jim Mike Weaver wrote: Only quibble with that is that we don't really have an energy policy. It's just consume consume consume, and damn the cost. JJJN wrote: Hi MH, I do like the excerpt ìMontana does not have to become a national sacrifice area for a faulty federal energy policy.î I guess when Americans are hooked like winos on cheap fuel the fastest way to get them a fix is the stance most politico's take. Coal is a loser. Gov. Schweitzer understands this and would like to push harder but remember it is like selling bibles in a bar room. I think the grass roots movement that we are involved in with Biofuels will effect more change. It is nice to see them talking though and it never hurts to write a guy like Brian a letter. Thanks for the interesting post Jim MH wrote: Peering into Montanaís energy future By WILBUR WOOD For The Outpost http://www.billingsnews.com/story?storyid=18357issue=289 snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Brine Wash
Dan, Does anybody have experience using brine washed biodiesel, or is it just a bad idea? Only to crack some nasty emulsions. Our thoughts are that it could help mask an incomplete reaction. Todd Swearingen I've read about using brine for the washing process and tried a couple test batches with it yesterday. My biggest concern is that some residual salt will be left over in the biodiesel somewhere. Even though salt supposedly will not dissolve in biodiesel, some could be attached to left-over impurities, including residual water. Does anybody have experience using brine washed biodiesel, or is it just a bad idea? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
And are you saying we should pull out now? That, sir, would be the most irresponsible thing we could possibly do, bring all our troops home. We'd be leaving a mess we created behind, without even trying to clean it up. More people would die than are currently dying now, and the eventual government to emerge would be whomever could employ the most brutality to silence all competition. At least with our troops there we provide some vague semblence of security and the glimmer of peaceable government formation. True, it would be a disaster if we pulled out today. But we are building permanent bases there, which gives the impression (true or not) that we NEVER intend to leave. That creates problems of its own. I was reminded of an old book, by Heinlien I think. One character states something to the effect that invasion by aliens is not that bad, as long as no women come, because then it means that they are colonizing your planet, not merely taking resources. Outdated sexual roles aside, this is what we are doing in Iraq by building permanent bases. We cannot pull out immediatly, but staying indefinitely is not a viable option either, and in the debate, those are often presented as the only options. IF those were the only options, I would choose immediate withdrawal, but I hope that someone is smart enough to choose the middle road instead. Zeke ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
SODIUM CHLORIDE IS VERY TOXIC STAY AWAY. IT WILL TURN INTO A YELLOW CLOUD. IF YOU SMELL IT IT'S TOO LATE FOR YOU. ABOUT 3 SECONDS LATER YOU'LL STOP SMELLING IT AND SHOTLY AFTER YOU'LL DROP DEAD. THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER MIX CHEMICALS TRYING TO GET A CLOGED SINK OPEN. I ONCE SAW SOMEONE DUMP RED DEVIL(LYE) THEN POUR CHLOROX ON TOP OF IT. i BARELY DRAGED HER OUT BEFORE THE CLOUD HIT HER IN THE FACE. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Hello All, I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
How about shall we not say nefarious purposes. The salt will precipitate during the FFA recovery. And glycerol is not going to be worth anything more as a fuel source than is sugar. It's an alcohol that's as thick and as sweet as honey in it's pure state. If you've seen sugar burn then you're already familiar with what glycerol would burn like. You'd have better luck getting the glycerol cocktail to burn, as it has a higher energy value due to the methanol and FFAs in the soap. As for producing NaCl from any process? The intent should be to steer processes away from creating waste products, not creating more. The wash process doesn't need to be a brine to work. The caustic should be potassium whenever possible and the waste salt from FFA recovery should be something that has and end use, such as potassium phosphate, making the process an almoste entirely closed loop. Glycerol disposal (that's after methanol, caustic and useable FFAs are recovered) can either be by sale or simply dissolved in the treated wash water and dispersed as gray water irrigation. Again, the purpose should be to reduce the waste stream, not add to it. Todd Swearingen Kurt Nolte wrote: Is there any way to later extract the NaCl from the glycerine, so that you can use the glycerine for other... shall we say nefarious purposes? (Such as powering a turbine generator, or similiar combustive measures to reuse your waste to feed the process... No I'm not stupid enough to try and go the nitroglycerin route, though I fear for a coworker of mine who has taken an interest in the process.) If you can do this, and Mr. Sharp's question about brine washing comes up positive, you could use the salt from this process to make your brine for washing... and then finally waste it through sewage or whatnot when it's finally been ultimately exhausted, instead of getting rid of potentially valuable products and also having to purchase salt for your brine. Just a thought. Peace -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
How about shall we not say nefarious purposes. Ehh, it was a failed attempt at being humorous. I use that one all the time at work. Sometimes it works, sometimes it falls on its face. The salt will precipitate during the FFA recovery.And glycerol is not going to be worth anything more as a fuel source than is sugar. It's an alcohol that's as thick and as sweet as honey init's pure state. If you've seen sugar burn then you're already familiarwith what glycerol would burn like. Ahh. Gotcha. You'd have better luck getting the glycerol cocktail to burn, as it hasa higher energy value due to the methanol and FFAs in the soap. As for producing NaCl from any process? The intent should be to steerprocesses away from creating waste products, not creating more. The washprocess doesn't need to be a brine to work. The caustic should be potassium whenever possible and the waste salt from FFA recovery shouldbe something that has and end use, such as potassium phosphate, makingthe process an almoste entirely closed loop.Glycerol disposal (that's after methanol, caustic and useable FFAs are recovered) can either be by sale or simply dissolved in the treated washwater and dispersed as gray water irrigation.Again, the purpose should be to reduce the waste stream, not add to it. Seeing now the negative response in the other e-mail chain, I understand that. I was just trying to think of some way to use more of your waste products if this route were to be taken. Not deliberately generate more of them, y'know? If salt was to be a byproduct then it would seem logical to try and come up with some manner of use for the salt, but seeing as how it won't be necessary then I guess it truly would be a waste product after all. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. On 10/30/05, logan vilas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SODIUM CHLORIDE IS VERY TOXIC STAY AWAY. IT WILL TURN INTO A YELLOW CLOUD. IF YOU SMELL IT IT'S TOO LATE FOR YOU. ABOUT 3 SECONDS LATER YOU'LL STOP SMELLING IT AND SHOTLY AFTER YOU'LL DROP DEAD. THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER MIX CHEMICALS TRYING TO GET A CLOGED SINK OPEN. I ONCE SAW SOMEONE DUMP RED DEVIL(LYE) THEN POUR CHLOROX ON TOP OF IT. i BARELY DRAGED HER OUT BEFORE THE CLOUD HIT HER IN THE FACE. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Hello All, I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
"And are you saying we should pull out now? That, sir, would be the most irresponsible thing we could possibly do, bring all our troops home."That maybe true. However, fooling the country intoa fakecausus bellum is equally irresponsible, with the perpetrators benefitting from the above statement.I don't know about anyone else but, choosing between ten years of occupation (and with it, the draw of foreign guerrilla fighters), or ten years of civil war and determining what would cause more suffering is an impossible question to answer. At least with a civil war, the victor and the spoils both come(and stay) fromwithin their own border. Mike Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And are you saying we should pull out now? That, sir, would be the most irresponsible thing we could possibly do, bring all our troops home. We'd be leaving a mess we created behind, without even trying to clean it up. More people would die than are currently dying now, and the eventual government to emerge would be whomever could employ the most brutality to silence all competition. At least with our troops there we provide some vague semblence of security and the glimmer of peaceable government formation.True, it would be a disaster if we pulled out today. But we arebuilding permanent bases there, which gives the impression (true ornot) that we NEVER intend to leave. That creates problems of its own.I was reminded of an old book, by Heinlien I think. One characterstates something to the effect ! that invasion by aliens is not thatbad, as long as no women come, because then it means that they arecolonizing your planet, not merely taking resources. Outdated sexualroles aside, this is what we are doing in Iraq by building permanentbases. We cannot pull out immediatly, but staying indefinitely is nota viable option either, and in the debate, those are often presentedas the only options. IF those were the only options, I would chooseimmediate withdrawal, but I hope that someone is smart enough tochoose the middle road instead.Zeke___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
I don't remember exactly where I first found this quote (either The Future of Freedom Foundation - www.fff.org or www.LewRockwell.com). It was from some speech or address that Teddy gave on April 19, 1906. It pops up on several quote websites (search for roosevelt april 19 1906 or Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government on your favorite search engine). At first glance this quote appears to refer to some conspiracy group or secret society that is behind the government, but I think it refers to the growing government bureacracy that runs the day-to-day operations regardless of who is in power. Good luck finding a sound byte. Thanks, Earl Kinsley [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- That government is best which governs least. -- Thomas Paine -- Check out my latest blogs at http://KinsleyForPrez08.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of today. - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906 Hey Mr. Kinzley, do you know where i can get that quote in a soundbyte? we have a DJ here at home who is paying ungodly FCC fines because he doesnt really care, and i bet he would play this as a bump for his Church of Lazlo rant session. i wonder how many people have actually heard or read that, that are still alive... --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
- Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Table salt is NOT the same as chlorine gas. Why do you think it is? On 10/30/05, Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Ooops. I had an indefinite pronoun in my last post, which implied that I thought chlorine gas was not dangerous. I meant to say that, unlike chlorine gas, sodium chloride is not dangerous. The last sentence should have readYou can get chlorine gas from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but sodium chloride is not all that dangerous by itself. Zeke On 10/30/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Table salt is NOT the same as chlorine gas. Why do you think it is? On 10/30/05, Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Chlorine gas..was Separating Glycerine/FFA
Hello, chlorine gas can be very dangerous and deadly if inhaled in sufficient quantities. You may have made some accidentally by mixing ammonia with bleach or cleaning up cat urine with bleach. It is a yellowish green gas with a pungent, eye searing odour...not good Clean-up underway after 150,000 flee gas leak http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/18/content_324262.htm Gas leak kills 3 in Beijing http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/22/content_325229.htm Risky Chlorine Gas in Water Treatment http://www.clo2.com/reading/waternews/chlorine.html Dosing units reduce the risk of chlorine-gas leakage http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/eng/features/sewage/?show=64311 Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network http://www.alternate-energy.net 1000+ news sources - resources updated daily next_generation_grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ---Original Message--- From: Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Sent: 31 Oct '05 04:19 - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sodium chloride is table salt.ÊÊChlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think.ÊÊYou can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] chlorine was Separating Glycerine/FFA
OK Zeke, you corrected yourself. regards tallex Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net ---Original Message--- From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Sent: 31 Oct '05 04:50 Ooops.ÊÊI had an indefinite pronoun in my last post, which implied that I thought chlorine gas was not dangerous.ÊÊI meant to say that, unlike chlorine gas, sodium chloride is not dangerous.ÊÊThe last sentence should have readÊÊ You can get chlorine gas from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but sodium chloride is not all that dangerous by itself. Zeke On 10/30/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Table salt is NOT the same as chlorine gas.ÊÊ Why do you think it is? On 10/30/05, Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sodium chloride is table salt.ÊÊChlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think.ÊÊYou can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. next_generation_grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] chlorine was Separating Glycerine/FFA
- Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:01 PM Subject: [Biofuel] chlorine was Separating Glycerine/FFA OK Zeke, you corrected yourself. regards tallex Mr. Yewdall, I apologize for the biting remarks made previously and thank you for the clarification. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
What if there were flat electrodes for this, would the ratings still be V/mm or would there have to be a consideration of surface area? if the requirements were in V/mm^3 you could calculate an appropriate voltage for a certain flow rate, and the processor could be compacted the same way a heat exchanging device is. this would be extremely high tensile (4500 Volts, assuming 15 V/mm3) for a 10 lengthx30 widthx1mm thick chamber. any other numbers would have to come from a successful test, the15V are just prelim figures taken from a previous post by Mr. Joe Street and unfortunately have no connections to any test of my own, but if ithelps someonewith the process, maybeMr. Streetcan crack it. Jason ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] No Child Left Unquestioned by Homeland Security!!
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president... is morally treasonable to the American public. Theodore Roosevelt He has been right so many times before... too bad he's dead now, we need him. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Chlorine gas..was Separating Glycerine/FFA
Ammonia and bleach when combined and heated releases phosgene, once used as a warfare chemical. doug swanson Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hello, chlorine gas can be very dangerous and deadly if inhaled in sufficient quantities. You may have made some accidentally by mixing ammonia with bleach or cleaning up cat urine with bleach. It is a yellowish green gas with a pungent, eye searing odour...not good Clean-up underway after 150,000 flee gas leak http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/18/content_324262.htm Gas leak kills 3 in Beijing http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/22/content_325229.htm Risky Chlorine Gas in Water Treatment http://www.clo2.com/reading/waternews/chlorine.html Dosing units reduce the risk of chlorine-gas leakage http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/eng/features/sewage/?show=64311 Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network http://www.alternate-energy.net 1000+ news sources - resources updated daily next_generation_grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ---Original Message--- From: Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Sent: 31 Oct '05 04:19 - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Montanas energy future was US Montana’s energy future
Hello Jim, Awareness is a good first step and you seem to have taken it. Keep reading and learning more. Then comes the application of what you learn. That´s kind of a personal choice. Begin with what you like. Expand from there. I like to take what most people think of as wastes and turn them into useful products. I also like to grow things. So I combined these and use my household organic wastes (vegetable and fruit peels mostly) to feed some worms in a wormbox. The worms produce an excellent fertilizer that I use on my raspberries. I eat the raspberries. I look to complete cycles. The more you try this, the more awareness you getthe more reading you do...oops another cycle. Tom Irwin From: JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:23:44 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Montanas energy future was US Montanaâs energy futureKeith,Thanks for the reply. It truly frustrates me as it is so correct. I may have missed something but at the end you stated "Methinks this is no longer a good survival model, there seem to be several meteorites headed its way. Oh, sorry, I forgot, you don't get meteorites on a Flat Earth do you, lots of dinosaurs, no meteorites (according to the dinosaurs). Please keep in mind I am rather naive and new at thinking in the terms of conservation and trying to do whats best to help make a changes that will serve more than myself. Yes I was and may still be to some extent more self serving than I should be, but at least I now have an awareness that I share my space and need to consider others. Any way you have my full attention.Well just for the record I understand the present system is on its way out to something worse before better, but what is the best way for an individual to go forward to effect positive change??Thanks,JimKeith Addison wrote:OK Mike,I went to, http://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/and it says we do have a policy "National Energy Policy" to be exact,but you must be referring to hopelessly pathetic message it contains, ifnot that then perhaps the cryptic coded quote by our great leader thatwe can still have Yellowstone Park while we find more oil (who meworry?), or perhaps if we manipulate our clocks some more we can savethe world,or or or well ok Mike your right We really don't have anenergy policy, not even a failed one. ;-) Paying for the next election is top of the list for the politicians, cutting a bigger slice in the interdepartmental budget wars and office-politics territory battles is uppermost for the bureaucrats and "oaf-icials", and for the corporations that own them all the next board meeting, the AGM and the bottom-line are all that count, and you want policy?? It would be quite nice I suppose.Japan doesn't do policy either, no actual policy on anything anywhere to be seen, "policy" is what emerges from mostly invisible horse-trading among powerful fiefdoms constantly jostling for position and defending their share of the spoils, whose thinking and goals are in no way representative of those of the community. The EU does policy, good or bad or both, so do China, India, Brazil, South Africa and a few others, and people like Chavez and Castro. Saudi Arabia et al's policy turns out to be a sham - having helped deliver the US election as promised it now emerges that the rumours are true that they haven't got the reserves anyway and neither has anyone else (like Shell), their policy's just a big slice of pie-in-the-sky. (See Matt Simmonds in the list archives.) Most of the rest of the world is just trying to survive, not enough options for much policy as such. Which leaves a whole bunch of rich industrialised countries with lots of window-dressing on the policy front but it's just a puppet show, like the US and Japan.Methinks this is no longer a good survival model, there seem to be several meteorites headed its way. Oh, sorry, I forgot, you don't get meteorites on a Flat Earth do you, lots of dinosaurs, no meteorites (according to the dinosaurs).BestKeith JimMike Weaver wrote: Only quibble with that is that we don't really have an energy policy.It's just consume consume consume, and damn the cost.JJJN wrote: Hi MH,I do like the excerptìMontana does not have to become a national sacrifice areafor a faulty federal energy policy.îI guess when Americans are hooked like winos on cheap fuel the fastestway to get them a fix is the stance most politico's take. Coal is aloser. Gov. Schweitzer understands this and would like to push harderbut remember it is like selling bibles in a bar room. I think the grassroots movement that we are involved in with Biofuels will effect morechange. It is nice to see them talking though and it never hurts towrite a guy like Brian a letter.Thanks for the interesting postJimMH wrote: Peering into MontanaÃs energy futureBy WILBUR WOOD For The Outposthttp://www.billingsnews.com/story?storyid=18357issue=289 ___Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:We are thinking of planting Jatropha Curcas trees using earthworms tocompost waste, the compost we get from the wormswe will use for the Jatropha trees.This URL has a very good article on jatropha's benefits as a fuel and for other things.http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=356http://www.ecowor ld.org/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=356Europe Adopts Biodiesel CAN AN AFRICAN BEAN CRACKEUROPE'S BIODIESEL BLOCKAGE? By Candida Jones A row ofJatropha trees - plants with potential to alleviate fuel shortages Editor's Note: Jatropha is an example of a plant that could begrowneven if it didn't yield biofuel. It is useful for restoring soil,combatting desertification, and providing fertilizer. It requiresminimal inputs of water and grows in extremely poor soil. Any plant that is a cash crop anyway and costs almost nothing togrowcan't be a bad candidate for an economically viable biofuel.(See URL above for the rest.)___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Qumica - DEQCentro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Ps Graduao em Engenharia Qumica - PPGEQGrupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitrio CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - BrasilResidence :AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal210 32171557Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
The electric field strength should be proportional to just the linear distance between electrodes. I believe the current needed to maintain a given voltage differential would increase proportionally to the area involved. On 10/30/05, Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if there were flat electrodes for this, would the ratings still be V/mm or would there have to be a consideration of surface area? if the requirements were in V/mm^3 you could calculate an appropriate voltage for a certain flow rate, and the processor could be compacted the same way a heat exchanging device is. this would be extremely high tensile (4500 Volts, assuming 15 V/mm3) for a 10 lengthx30 widthx1mm thick chamber. any other numbers would have to come from a successful test, the15V are just prelim figures taken from a previous post by Mr. Joe Street and unfortunately have no connections to any test of my own, but if it helps someone with the process, maybe Mr. Street can crack it. Jason ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] chlorine was Separating Glycerine/FFA
I should read my emails more carefully to make sure they say what I mean them to say in the future. Especially when I ended up implying the direct opposet of what I meant. Zeke On 10/30/05, Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:01 PM Subject: [Biofuel] chlorine was Separating Glycerine/FFA OK Zeke, you corrected yourself. regards tallex Mr. Yewdall, I apologize for the biting remarks made previously and thank you for the clarification. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
My mistake, I said sodium chloride without thinking, but I know mixing lye with things that contain chlorine can and will for chlorine gas, I don't know exactly what because I've never tried experimenting with it. Sorry for the confusion. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Dark Biodiesel
I have been making BD which is quite dark as well (compared to what you get with new oil) I use more excess methanol than I need to(20% of oil volume). I haven't got to the stage where I can tweak it down to just enough excess to push the reaction to completion, I am still at the sledgehammer stage, but the fuel is dark! I don't think adding more methanol will do much unless you are not using enough in the first place. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello To All, I get very dark WVO from a Chinese restaurant. I tested a sample and found virtually no water. It titrated at 1.3g/L. Usually my WVO gets mixed together, but I ran a 20gal. batch using only this oil. It washed (stir-washed) very easily.The finished BD was clear down to below 40F, but was very dark. I reprocessed a .5L sample NO glycerine dropped out. A 25ml. sample dissolved completely in 225ml methanol. It appeared to be very high quality BD. I've been running it in my car and I responded to a question by Danislov K. regarding dark BD. I told him that if it passed these quality tests it should be OK to use. BUT: In going back over the Quality Tests described at JtF . Alex Kacwrote: Deeper color biodiesel has a lot of glycerine in it in the form of various glycerids. Not good for standard engines. Remedy: If the diesel is too dark and you are sure that you used the correct quantitie(s) of catalyst(s), add a pinch more alcohol -- you could be losing it due to evaporation." - Did I give Danislov the wrong advice??? -Ifglycerine "in the form of various glycerids" was present in the finished BD wouldn'tit show up upon reprocessing? - Is it possible to have high quality BD that is very dark in color? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Portents of the upcoming Big One
This is the most encouraging news I've heard in a while! I agree with Malcom Kendall-Smith. And I agree with Keith's post about the court of public opinion. I am one of those who has been relentlessly pounding this concept into everyone I know. I have been saying for a long time now, basically since we found out there were no WMD that this grounds for impeachment of G.W.Bush! The Downing street memo was just more proof. George Galloway's tirade against the senate sub comittee, another nugget. Perhaps this trial will create a precedent. Perhaps even if it plays out as a typical military drum head trial there will be a massive outcry against it. I don't know, probably not. But I hope it can be a catalyst for the anit war movement. So long as people don't become apathetic, so long as we keep up the pressure, there is a chance for change. Joe bmolloy wrote: Hi All, This latest report from Pilger. Does this portend theBig One - a criminal trial of Western war leaders that would outshine Nuremberg? Bob. Date: Saturday, 29 October 2005 7:20 pm THE EPIC CRIME THAT DARES NOT SPEAK ITS NAME: John Pilger A Royal Air Force officer is about to be tried before a military court for refusing to return to Iraq because the war is illegal. Malcolm Kendall-Smith is the first British officer to face criminal charges for challenging the legality of the invasion and occupation. He is not a conscientious objector; he has completed two tours in Iraq. When he came home the last time, he studied the reasons given for attacking Iraq and concluded he was breaking the law. His position is supported by international lawyers all over the world, not least by Kofi Annan, the UN secretary general, who said in September last year: "The US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN Charter." ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Jason and Katie, I believe the operational premise here is that the sodium chloride (table salt) would settle out during a FFA recovery process, no different than the manner in which potassium phosphate settles out when using KOH as the catalyst and phosphoric acid in the FFA recovery. It's possible that an intermediary chlorine gas could be created. I couldn't say precisely, as we've never used anything but phosphoric and occassionally sulfuric (in test amounts) acid in the FFA recovery. All chemicals behave differently when mixed. Someone is going to have to stand up and prefer some solid information on this one, rather than leaving it up to conjecture. Todd Swearingen Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
Heard good things about Canadian peacekeepers? What about Somalia? A scared soldier with a gun is a scared soldier with a gun. Maybe the focus could be on how to stop the USA from invading countries in the future. And stopping real atrocities like the use of depleted uranium in shells. Your vets are still suffering from that great idea. KF ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Good Day To All, I agree with Todd S. "As for producing NaCl from any process? The intent should be to steer processes away from creating waste products, not creating more." I now have 10, 5gal. containers of byproduct in my shed, and more on the way.The only reasonably priced H3PO4 I have found so far comes in 55 gal drums much too much!!! I was looking at using another acid ex HCl in order to get FFA's to burn in my in-laws heating system. I wantto attempt methanol recovery from the glycerine,and my wife would like to try to make glycerine soap. Would using Sulfuric acid be better in that it produces Sodium Sulfate? ... a fertilizer ... (I'd better switch to KOH, and locate H3PO4, huh?). I'm biting at the bit to do something w. the byproduct other than composting it. I need some help with the chemistry. Ken Provost wrote: "HCl works fine -- the FFA will gradually rise to the top as an odd-smelling reddishoily liquid, and the glycerine will be left in an aqueous solution atpH 3or so (you have to overshoot the acid quite a lot to get separation of FFA,due to the buffering effect of the soap/FFA system)." At the prices I've seen for smaller quantitiesof H3PO4 (500ml $18 + shipping) I'd like to be conservative w. it. Isn't the amount of acid needed to overwhelm the buffer system related to how much soap was produced in the process? Which, in turn, was formed by the FFA's present in the WVO, and that we neutralized with NaOH (or KOH)? If this is so, can't we get at least a ballpark figureof the amount of acid needed toseparate the glycerine/FFA from a particular BD batch? JtF: "We found that it takes about 1.5 to 1.7 ml of 85% phosphoric acid for each gram of sodium lye used in the process." 3.5g lye/L+ titration (g/L) = g lye/L g lye/LX1.5 or 1.7 ml/g lye = roughly the ml H3PO4 Are we striving for a pH of about 3 or does it vary w. WVO used? I ask, because if a particular pH produces the sparation couldn't we use a pH indicator?(Asw. Phenolphthalein - for titration of WVO) Bromcresol green (pH 3.8 - 5.4) Bromphenol Blue (pH 3.0 - 4.6) Methyl Red (pH 4.2 - 6.2) If we titrated a small (1L) sample to the desired pH, we could calculate at least roughly the amount of acid needed to separate the larger batch. And this would work even on mixed batches. This list is like a morning newspaper to me (or what I'd like one to be). There is a cast of characters here, including Todd S. and Ken Provost,whose responsesI read, regardless of topic, because they have insightthat I envy and a world of knowledge that I am trying to come to grips with. I appreciate your responses. Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA On Oct 30, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? HCl works fine -- the FFA will gradually rise to the top as an odd-smelling reddishoily liquid, and the glycerine will be left in an aqueous solution at pH 3or so (you have to overshoot the acid quite a lot to get separation of FFA,due to the buffering effect of the soap/FFA system). When using H3PO4, I bring it back to pH 7 with ammonia, to give a fairly benign fertilizer solution for the compost or garden. Obviously, with HCl and lye, the NaCl will be fairly destructive, so the glycerine will need to be sewered or otherwise wasted. -K ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ecemail.uwaterloo.ca id j9VGCi9o030713 Doug is the man! Thank goodness for people like you. Now if you and all the others like you (and I know there must be a lot of them) could just get together and grab the mic and shout it to the rest who are basically sleeping something might really happen. Thanks for the Jefferson quote. He knew a thing or two! Joe Douglas Smith wrote: Kurt postulates: "Plus, wars of aggression don't usually result in the winning side voluntarily and immediately giving the country back over to its inhabitants; usually you fight an aggressive war to expand your own borders." First, you assume we're the winning side, and I'm sure there are those that will and can make a very good case we have NOT given the country back to its inhabitants. That government is a flimsy sham and we continue to occupy that country. Second, define expanding borders - how about expanding the borders of our military base placements around the middle east, how about expanding control of or interest in the borders of world oil supplies. We want military control over the world for our corporate backers - a pretty expansive 'border' if you ask me. Attacking and destroying a country that is not a threat to you IS the very essence of a war of aggression. ...and we're guilty as all f**k! EVERY American needs to understand that this is OUR war ultimately and we should own that, and stop the war before it destroys everything this country holds dear and creates even more death and havoc. Then we need to do some very deep soul searching and some major work world-wide to attempt to redeem our sorry selves! Doug The end of democracy and the defeat of the American revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." -President Thomas Jefferson (a founder of America in condemnation of cartel power. 1743-1826) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Hey Jason and Katie; Does your friend have a website? I'm sure his broadcasts are out of my listening range but I'm very interested in that kind of stuff. There were some audio recordings as early as the late 1800's but I doubt you will find a recording of that type from 1906. I wish. Joe Jason and Katie wrote: "Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of today." - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906 Hey Mr. Kinzley, do you know where i can get that quote in a soundbyte? we have a DJ here at home who is paying ungodly FCC fines because he doesnt really care, and i bet he would play this as a bump for his "Church of Lazlo" rant session. i wonder how many people have actually heard or read that, that are still alive... --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
one laboratory method would be to combine equimolar amounts of methyl chloride (chloromethane by the iupac) with a nitrate salt. Greg and April wrote: Then how is NitoMethane made? Greg H. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:35 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution Howdy Teoman, bubbling thru the solution is all that it would do. It doesn't react under these conditions. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Sodium chloride isn't that bad. It's only a little worse than hydrionic acid. I had some this morning with breakfast. I didn't drop dead on my walk to work. Maybe it is st wwwoorkinnngarg logan vilas wrote: SODIUM CHLORIDE IS VERY TOXIC STAY AWAY. IT WILL TURN INTO A YELLOW CLOUD. IF YOU SMELL IT IT'S TOO LATE FOR YOU. ABOUT 3 SECONDS LATER YOU'LL STOP SMELLING IT AND SHOTLY AFTER YOU'LL DROP DEAD. THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER MIX CHEMICALS TRYING TO GET A CLOGED SINK OPEN. I ONCE SAW SOMEONE DUMP RED DEVIL(LYE) THEN POUR CHLOROX ON TOP OF IT. i BARELY DRAGED HER OUT BEFORE THE CLOUD HIT HER IN THE FACE. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Hello All, I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
On 10/31/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now if you and all the others like you (and I know there must be a lot of them) could just get together and grab the mic and shout it to the rest who are basically sleeping something might really happen. If only it were that easy, Joe. There are lots of us out there willing to shout it out but, those sleeping have their earplugs in and the sleep shades on. Even after this latest episode with Libby, Rove and Cheney, the sleepers still aren't willing to wake up. They just wish to compare this situation to a former president's (name purposely omitted) missteps. I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep trying but, I wouldn't want others to expect that all that is required it to start discussing the issues and things will change. Many people become discouraged when they realize the extent of the blind faith. This is especially true when surrounded by sheeple with little reinforcement. It really is a long uphill battle. Perseverance is essential. I wish that this wasn't such a bleak message. I try to keep an upbeat outlook. Take care, Ken Doesn't it sound like I might be a bit frustrated? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug is the man! Thank goodness for people like you. Now if you and all the others like you (and I know there must be a lot of them) could just get together and grab the mic and shout it to the rest who are basically sleeping something might really happen.Thanks for the Jefferson quote. He knew a thing or two!JoeDouglas Smith wrote: Kurt postulates: "Plus, wars of aggression don't usually result in the winning side voluntarily and immediately giving the country back over to its inhabitants; usually you fight an aggressive war to expand your own borders." First, you assume we're the winning side, and I'm sure there are those that will and can make a very good case we have NOT given the country back to its inhabitants. That government is a flimsy sham and we continue to occupy that country. Second, define expanding borders - how about expanding the borders of our military base placements around the middle east, how about expanding control of or interest in the borders of world oil supplies. We want military control over the world for our corporate backers - a pretty expansive 'border' if you ask me. Attacking and destroying a country that is not a threat to you IS the very essence of ! a war of aggression. ...and we're guilty as all f**k! EVERY American needs to understand that this is OUR war ultimately and we should own that, and stop the war before it destroys everything this country holds dear and creates even more death and havoc. Then we need to do some very deep soul searching and some major work world-wide to attempt to redeem our sorry selves! Doug ãThe end of democracy and the defeat of the American revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." -President Thomas Jefferson (a founder of America in condemnation of cartel power. 1743-1826) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Hi Jason; Field strength is always specified as volts per distance, not volts per area. If the reaction happens at the electrode surface which most people would assume then the surface area will affect proportionately the amount of ion exchange that is happening per unit time. My experience is all with rarefied gasses in vacuum chambers and high field strengths. I work with plasmas. I have no idea about liquids, but it is a relatively simple thing for me to build the high voltage equipment. Once ionization happens all kinds of species can exist with varying probabilities in the plasma including compounds, radicals and ionized species. At this point I am wondering if the desired reaction happens under actual plasma conditions at high pressure (atmospheric or higher). There does not seem to be any joy in the absence of an arc even when the field strength is more than an order greater than specified in the abstract. Joe Jason and Katie wrote: What if there were flat electrodes for this, would the ratings still be V/mm or would there have to be a consideration of surface area? if the requirements were in V/mm^3 you could calculate an appropriate voltage for a certain flow rate, and the processor could be compacted the same way a heat exchanging device is. this would be extremely high tensile (4500 Volts, assuming 15 V/mm3) for a 10 lengthx30 widthx1mm thick chamber. any other numbers would have to come from a successful test, the15V are just prelim figures taken from a previous post by Mr. Joe Street and unfortunately have no connections to any test of my own, but if ithelps someonewith the process, maybeMr. Streetcan crack it. Jason ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Chemicals to watch out for -- was Separating Glycerine/FFA
Hydrionic acid? Don't forget to watch out for di-hydrogen oxide. It can easily cause death by asphixiation. If you get it on your skin, it can cause hypothermia by rapidly increasing heat transfer, it promotes mold and bacterial growth, and it's effect on automobiles in the wintertime is a major cause of fatal accidents. On 10/31/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sodium chloride isn't that bad. It's only a little worse than hydrionic acid. I had some this morning with breakfast. I didn't drop dead on my walk to work. Maybe it is st wwwoorkinnngarg logan vilas wrote: SODIUM CHLORIDE IS VERY TOXIC STAY AWAY. IT WILL TURN INTO A YELLOW CLOUD. IF YOU SMELL IT IT'S TOO LATE FOR YOU. ABOUT 3 SECONDS LATER YOU'LL STOP SMELLING IT AND SHOTLY AFTER YOU'LL DROP DEAD. THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER MIX CHEMICALS TRYING TO GET A CLOGED SINK OPEN. I ONCE SAW SOMEONE DUMP RED DEVIL(LYE) THEN POUR CHLOROX ON TOP OF IT. i BARELY DRAGED HER OUT BEFORE THE CLOUD HIT HER IN THE FACE. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Hello All, I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Teoman, you really need at least a short course in organic chemistry. It would answer most if not all of your questions. A little understanding of organic chemistry can go a long way. Teoman Naskali wrote: Any known functional groups? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Tan Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 1:58 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution Hydrocarbons are relatively inert. They only undergo reaction at vigorous conditions such high pressure and/or high temperature, i.e. with a spark(kaboom!). A reactant would need to have what is called a functional group to react at less vigorous condition. With alcohols, the functional group is -OH which makes it react. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:00 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution How would you react the solution with the gas? Teoman Naskali wrote: Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money. Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] If this isn't aggression...
Hi Ken; I share your frustration, -to the point of depression at times. That's why I'm all over messages that offer hope. If it wasn't for those I might not make it sometimes! I grab the oportunity to remind people that the uphill battle is worth fighting. It's as much for myself as for anyone else I guess. Cheers Joe (with a glimmer of light inside - somewhere I think) Ken Dunn wrote: On 10/31/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now if you and all the others like you (and I know there must be a lot of them) could just get together and grab the mic and shout it to the rest who are basically sleeping something might really happen. If only it were that easy, Joe. There are lots of us out there willing to shout it out but, those "sleeping" have their earplugs in and the sleep shades on. Even after this latest episode with Libby, Rove and Cheney, the sleepers still aren't willing to wake up. They just wish to compare this situation to a former president's (name purposely omitted) missteps. I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep trying but, I wouldn't want others to expect that all that is required it to start discussing the issues and things will change. Many people become discouraged when they realize the extent of the blind faith. This is especially true when surrounded by sheeple with little reinforcement. It really is a long uphill battle. Perseverance is essential. I wish that this wasn't such a bleak message. I try to keep an upbeat outlook. Take care, Ken Doesn't it sound like I might be a bit frustrated? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Liquid-liquid separator
Hi,all, You won`t believe it,but up to now I found EIGHTEENS separators and the offers are still coming! The prices vary from $1000 to $4000 and the manufacturers are different.If someone is interested,I will ask how match is the cost of shipment. Best Rumen __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Hi,all, A friend of mine has good results with citric acid,the glyc is as clear as water and high purity. Best Rumen __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Chemicals to watch out for -- was Separating Glycerine/FFA
Oops I meant Hydric acid but I know what you mean about the di-hydrogen momoxide (DMHO) it really is a killer. I've heard the military keeps huge tanks of it on reserve incase they ever need it one day, like in an emergency situation I guess. Here is a link that has all the dirt on DHMO http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html Apparently it's even bad for fuel. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: Hydrionic acid? Don't forget to watch out for di-hydrogen oxide. It can easily cause death by asphixiation. If you get it on your skin, it can cause hypothermia by rapidly increasing heat transfer, it promotes mold and bacterial growth, and it's effect on automobiles in the wintertime is a major cause of fatal accidents. On 10/31/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sodium chloride isn't that bad. It's only a little worse than hydrionic acid. I had some this morning with breakfast. I didn't drop dead on my walk to work. Maybe it is st wwwoorkinnngarg logan vilas wrote: SODIUM CHLORIDE IS VERY TOXIC STAY AWAY. IT WILL TURN INTO A YELLOW CLOUD. IF YOU SMELL IT IT'S TOO LATE FOR YOU. ABOUT 3 SECONDS LATER YOU'LL STOP SMELLING IT AND SHOTLY AFTER YOU'LL DROP DEAD. THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER MIX CHEMICALS TRYING TO GET A CLOGED SINK OPEN. I ONCE SAW SOMEONE DUMP RED DEVIL(LYE) THEN POUR CHLOROX ON TOP OF IT. i BARELY DRAGED HER OUT BEFORE THE CLOUD HIT HER IN THE FACE. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Hello All, I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Liquid-liquid separator
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi,all, You won`t believe it,but up to now I found EIGHTEENS separators and the offers are still coming! The prices vary from $1000 to $4000 and themanufacturers are different.If someone is interested,Iwill ask how match is the cost of shipment.Best Rumen__Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005http://mail.yahoo.com___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Logan, I think you are talking about the ammonia/hypochlorous acid reaction. It produces Nitrogen trichloride. NH3 +3 HClO -- NCl(3) + 3H2O combining lye and hypochlorous acid (chlorine bleach) doesn't produce chlorine gas, only sodium hypochlorite. NaOH + HClO -- NaClO + H2O the only toxicity associated with sodium chloride- table salt- is its exacerbation of hypertension, at least at normal doses. logan vilas wrote: SODIUM CHLORIDE IS VERY TOXIC STAY AWAY. IT WILL TURN INTO A YELLOW CLOUD. IF YOU SMELL IT IT'S TOO LATE FOR YOU. ABOUT 3 SECONDS LATER YOU'LL STOP SMELLING IT AND SHOTLY AFTER YOU'LL DROP DEAD. THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER MIX CHEMICALS TRYING TO GET A CLOGED SINK OPEN. I ONCE SAW SOMEONE DUMP RED DEVIL(LYE) THEN POUR CHLOROX ON TOP OF IT. i BARELY DRAGED HER OUT BEFORE THE CLOUD HIT HER IN THE FACE. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:19 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Hello All, I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Zeke Yewdall wrote: Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, yes or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, no but it's not all that dangerous by itself. On 10/30/05, logan vilas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SODIUM CHLORIDE IS VERY TOXIC STAY AWAY. IT WILL TURN INTO A YELLOW CLOUD. IF YOU SMELL IT IT'S TOO LATE FOR YOU. ABOUT 3 SECONDS LATER YOU'LL STOP SMELLING IT AND SHOTLY AFTER YOU'LL DROP DEAD. THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER MIX CHEMICALS TRYING TO GET A CLOGED SINK OPEN. I ONCE SAW SOMEONE DUMP RED DEVIL(LYE) THEN POUR CHLOROX ON TOP OF IT. i BARELY DRAGED HER OUT BEFORE THE CLOUD HIT HER IN THE FACE. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Hello All, I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Chlorine gas..was Separating Glycerine/FFA
several of you are confusing the nitrogen trichloride a volatile toxic material, with chlorine an equally toxic material. The come from different sources but both are bad stuff. Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hello, chlorine gas can be very dangerous and deadly if inhaled in sufficient quantities. You may have made some accidentally by mixing ammonia with bleach or cleaning up cat urine with bleach. this is the nitrogen trichloride reaction It is a yellowish green gas with a pungent, eye searing odour...not good Clean-up underway after 150,000 flee gas leak http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/18/content_324262.htm Gas leak kills 3 in Beijing http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/22/content_325229.htm Risky Chlorine Gas in Water Treatment http://www.clo2.com/reading/waternews/chlorine.html Dosing units reduce the risk of chlorine-gas leakage http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/eng/features/sewage/?show=64311 Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network http://www.alternate-energy.net 1000+ news sources - resources updated daily next_generation_grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ---Original Message--- From: Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Sent: 31 Oct '05 04:19 - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Chlorine gas..was Separating Glycerine/FFA
des wrote: Ammonia and bleach when combined and heated releases phosgene, once used as a warfare chemical. arrrg! no not phosgene (C0Cl2) its nitrogen trichloride doug swanson Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Hello, chlorine gas can be very dangerous and deadly if inhaled in sufficient quantities. You may have made some accidentally by mixing ammonia with bleach or cleaning up cat urine with bleach. It is a yellowish green gas with a pungent, eye searing odour...not good Clean-up underway after 150,000 flee gas leak http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/18/content_324262.htm Gas leak kills 3 in Beijing http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/22/content_325229.htm Risky Chlorine Gas in Water Treatment http://www.clo2.com/reading/waternews/chlorine.html Dosing units reduce the risk of chlorine-gas leakage http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/eng/features/sewage/?show=64311 Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network http://www.alternate-energy.net 1000+ news sources - resources updated daily next_generation_grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid news resources forums tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ---Original Message--- From: Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA Sent: 31 Oct '05 04:19 - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Appal Energy wrote: Jason and Katie, I believe the operational premise here is that the sodium chloride (table salt) would settle out during a FFA recovery process, no different than the manner in which potassium phosphate settles out when using KOH as the catalyst and phosphoric acid in the FFA recovery. It's possible that an intermediary chlorine gas could be created. nope, not here I couldn't say precisely, as we've never used anything but phosphoric and occassionally sulfuric (in test amounts) acid in the FFA recovery. All chemicals behave differently when mixed. Someone is going to have to stand up and prefer some solid information on this one, rather than leaving it up to conjecture. I'm trying Todd Swearingen Sodium chloride is table salt. Chlorine is the yellow gas you're talking about I think. You can get it from sodium chloride by electrolyzing saltwater, or mixing sodium hypochlorite with lye aparrently, but it's not all that dangerous by itself. Chlorine gas was some of the other materials besides mustard gas that was used in WWI in the chemical artillery shells. if you think it isnt all that bad, try reading some of the medical reports of affected soldiers, or even the scientific studies that developed the ideas behind chemical warfare. chlorine gas is one of the reasons chemical warfare is subject to such a heavy retribution in the international community. if you dont think its dangerous, by all means try it, then lets see how you fare. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Is there any way to later extract the NaCl from the glycerine, so that you can use the glycerine for other... shall we say nefarious purposes? (Such as powering a turbine generator, or similiar combustive measures to reuse your waste to feed the process... No I'm not stupid enough to try and go the nitroglycerin route, though I fear for a coworker of mine who has taken an interest in the process.) If you can do this, and Mr. Sharp's question about brine washing comes up positive, you could use the salt from this process to make your brine for washing... and then finally waste it through sewage or whatnot when it's finally been ultimately exhausted, instead of getting rid of potentially valuable products and also having to purchase salt for your brine. Just a thought. Peace -Kurt You can use brine to break an emulsion, but it's better not to have emulsions in the first place. Caveman Chemistry previously had a nice description and slide show of producing Chlorine, Hydrogen, and Lye from table salt, using PET bottles, flashlight batteries, glue and stuff. It's not there anymore but I posted the full method previously, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg28376.html Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy Best wishes Keith On Oct 30, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I'm having difficulty getting Phosphoric Acid. Can I use Hydrochloric Acid to separate the Glycerine/FFA ? It will produce Sodium Chloride rather than Sodium Phosphate (I use lye), but other than that, any objections? HCl works fine -- the FFA will gradually rise to the top as an odd-smelling reddish oily liquid, and the glycerine will be left in an aqueous solution at pH 3 or so (you have to overshoot the acid quite a lot to get separation of FFA, due to the buffering effect of the soap/FFA system). When using H3PO4, I bring it back to pH 7 with ammonia, to give a fairly benign fertilizer solution for the compost or garden. Obviously, with HCl and lye, the NaCl will be fairly destructive, so the glycerine will need to be sewered or otherwise wasted. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha Curcas
Big thing that worries me about anything like this is that the search for a silver bullet plant or the widespread introduction of one that is deemed better might choke out natural flora. Introduction of Jatropha looks like it would have a rather high potential for doing just that, since it grows in such a variety of soil conditions. I just have to look outside when I'm driving down the road to see an example of something similar: huge, huge tracts of nothing but the horrid kudzu vine. Imported into this area for the railroad system, it took hold rather well and thrived. It's also now threatening to choke off local vegetation, and even swallow homes; could Jatropha one day do this? Just my caution and pessimism. Peace -Kurt Kudzu is excellent fodder for grazing animals, high protein, as good as alfalfa and more productive. Good pasture, and it makes good hay. It's a legume and fixes a lot of N,generally a soil improver. It's a deep-rooter and brings up a lot of minerals from the deep subsoil. It produces large, starchy tubers, widely used as food in the East and elsewhere in the tropics. It's also excellent at stabilising steep slopes, and as a general anti-erosion crop. The best way to eradicate it is to turn it into, first, beef, and second, pork. After the cattle are done, the pigs will root the rest out in search of the tubers, manuring as they go, leaving very fertile soil for the next crop. Americans and also Australians seem to hate the stuff, but where I've seen it growing wild in the East it has not been a pest. I've never heard it referred to as a pest here. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Caustic Soda, Lye, Sodium Hydroxide
Are Caustic Soda, Lye, and Sodium Hydroxide all the same thing? I called a chemical supplier locally and he said he didn't sell Lye and I asked for Caustic Soda and he had that. The bag says 100% Sodium Hydroxide. Would this be acceptable to use for LYE? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Caustic Soda, Lye, Sodium Hydroxide
more info at URL Kirk Sodium hydroxide (NaOH), also known as lye or caustic soda, is a caustic metallic base used in industry, mostly as a strong chemical base in the manufacture of paper, textiles, and detergents. When pure, it's a white solid, available in pellets, flakes, granules, and also 50% saturated solution. It's very hygroscopic and readily absorbs carbon dioxide and other acid-nature gas from the environment. It's is very soluble in water (with liberation of heat), alcohol, and glycerin. It's insoluble in ether and other non-polar solvent. Sodium hydroxide is occasionally used in the home as an agent for unblocking drains, but it is highly caustic and has a high danger of causing chemical burns, permanent injury or scarring, and blindness, due to its high reactivity. Therefore, it should be stored separately. Sodium hydroxide is relatively stable and incompatible with many substances. It dissolves very easily in water, however the dissolution is highly exothermic. For this reason, it is important to have the proper type of chemical fire extinguisher nearby before working with sodium hydroxide. Store NaOH in an airtight container to prevent it from absorbing water and CO2 from the air. It can create enough heat to ignite flammables (such as alcohols), so add slowly in biodiesel processors. Sodium hydroxide is produced in the chloralkali process, which is the electrolysis of an aqueous solution of sodium chloride. It is a by-product from the production of chlorine. A sodium hydroxide solution will leave a yellow stain on fabric and paper. Both sodium hydroxide (NaOH) and potassium hydroxide (KOH) are commonly called "lye" in North America, which can lead to some confusion. However, most commercially available lye is NaOH. Lye is also a main ingredient in the making of soap. NaOH is now most commonly used for this, but traditionally KOH was used because it was easier to obtain. Contents[hide] 1 Biodiesel 2 Food preparation 3 See also 4 External links [edit] Biodiesel For biodiesel, sodium hydroxide is used as a catalyst. This only works with anhydrous sodium hydroxide, because water and lye would turn biodiesel into soap (saponification). It is used more often than potassium hydroxide because it costs less, as a smaller quantity is needed for the same results. Another alternative is sodium silicate. Vinegar is a mild acid that will neutralize lye if it were to make contact with the skin. [edit] Food preparation Food uses of lye include washing or chemical peeling of fruits and vegetables, chocolate and cocoa processing, caramel color production, poultry scalding, soft drink processing, and thickening ice cream. Olives are often soaked in lye to soften them, while pretzels and German lye rolls are glazed with a lye solution before baking to make them crisp. Lye is used to make the Scandinavian delicacy known as lutefisk (from lutfisk, "lye fish"). Hominy is dried maize (corn) kernels reconstituted by soaking in lye-water. [edit] See also soda lime [edit] External links International Chemical Safety Card 0360 NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards European Chemicals Bureau Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide"Rob Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are Caustic Soda, Lye, and Sodium Hydroxide all the same thing? I called achemical supplier locally and he said he didn't sell Lye and I asked forCaustic Soda and he had that. The bag says 100% Sodium Hydroxide. Would thisbe acceptable to use for LYE?___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Caustic Soda, Lye, Sodium Hydroxide
Rob, All are one in the same. They should appear as synonyms on a MSDS sheet. Are Caustic Soda, Lye, and Sodium Hydroxide all the same thing? I called a chemical supplier locally and he said he didn't sell Lye and I asked for Caustic Soda and he had that. The bag says 100% Sodium Hydroxide. Would this be acceptable to use for LYE? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Separating Glycerine/FFA
Thomas, Sodium sulfate may have some additive property for soils, as many benefit from additional sulfur. On the other hand, it's not as universal a fertilizer as potassium phosphate. As for glycerin (glass) soap? You may wish to take a look at the enormous heat and alcohol inputs (energy inputs) that are required to achieve the clarity. Clear soap doesn't clean any better than opaque soap. Rather, it's more of a vanity/decorator/designer thang. A couple of thoughts: 1) Make your own soap from scratch and put some scratch back into your wallet. Homemade soaps have glycerol in them already. Industry removes the glycerol making hard bars that may very well last longer but are drying to the skin. In turn, they add the extracted glycerol to emollient products such as conditioners and glass soap and charge premium prices. Essentially, they make a problem and then profit off the problem they make. 2) Hard bar soaps are made using NaOH. Liquid soaps generally use KOH, as the soap base can be diluted more readily than harder sodium soaps. 3) Glycerol from the FFA recovery process will be discolored and could easily maintain some of the same odour as the parent stock. Be careful when choosing the parent stock from which you'll use the glycerol for cosmetic purposes. 4) If you want a hard bar, the recovered FFAs will better accomplish this, as they are free of glycerin. 5) No different than in intentional soap making, it helps to pick your parent stock in order to control the finished soap's properties. Coconut lends to lather. Saturated oils and phats lend to harder bars. I'd suggest the Soapmaker's Companion by Susan Miller Cavitch. It's one of the best soap making books ever published, with numerous overlaps with making biodiesel (unintentional, but none the less incredibly applicable). Todd Swearingen Good Day To All, I agree with Todd S. As for producing NaCl from any process? The intent should be to steer processes away from creating waste products, not creating more. I now have 10, 5gal. containers of byproduct in my shed, and more on the way. The only reasonably priced H3PO4 I have found so far comes in 55 gal drums much too much!!! I was looking at using another acid ex HCl in order to get FFA's to burn in my in-laws heating system. I want to attempt methanol recovery from the glycerine, and my wife would like to try to make glycerine soap. Would using Sulfuric acid be better in that it produces Sodium Sulfate? ... a fertilizer ... (I'd better switch to KOH, and locate H3PO4, huh?). I'm biting at the bit to do something w. the byproduct other than composting it. I need some help with the chemistry. Ken Provost wrote: HCl works fine -- the FFA will gradually rise to the top as an odd-smelling reddish oily liquid, and the glycerine will be left in an aqueous solution at pH 3 or so (you have to overshoot the acid quite a lot to get separation of FFA, due to the buffering effect of the soap/FFA system). At the prices I've seen for smaller quantities of H3PO4 (500ml $18 + shipping) I'd like to be conservative w. it. Isn't the amount of acid needed to overwhelm the buffer system related to how much soap was produced in the process? Which, in turn, was formed by the FFA's present in the WVO, and that we neutralized with NaOH (or KOH)? If this is so, can't we get at least a ballpark figure of the amount of acid needed to separate the glycerine/FFA from a particular BD batch? JtF: We found that it takes about 1.5 to 1.7 ml of 85% phosphoric acid for each gram of sodium lye used in the process. 3.5g lye/L + titration (g/L) = g lye/L g lye/L X 1.5 or 1.7 ml/g lye = roughly the ml H3PO4 Are we striving for a pH of about 3 or does it vary w. WVO used? I ask, because if a particular pH produces the sparation couldn't we use a pH indicator?(As w. Phenolphthalein - for titration of WVO) Bromcresol green (pH 3.8 - 5.4) Bromphenol Blue (pH 3.0 - 4.6) Methyl Red (pH 4.2 - 6.2) If we titrated a small (1L) sample to the desired pH, we could calculate at least roughly the amount of acid needed to separate the larger batch. And this would work even on mixed batches. This list is like a morning newspaper to me (or what I'd like one to be). There is a cast of characters here, including Todd S. and Ken Provost, whose responses I read, regardless of topic, because they have insight that I envy and a world of knowledge that I am trying to come to grips with. I appreciate your responses. Thanks, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Ken Provost mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, October 30, 2005 7:28 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Separating
