Re: [Biofuel] Imposing democrysy
Hi Keith ; But then they didn't argue about healthcare either, nor women's rights, or racism, the environment, libraries, education. We do make progress, we humans,.. Keith, none of these things that we consider progress would be considered progress by Jesus, in fact quite the opposite. I am of the opinion that near the end times, the whole world will be deceived. Is it possible we are following the script precisely as foretold? Would you explain what you mean by mankind's fundamental nature? People are naturally cooperative, it's what they do all the time, it's the human norm. They go out of their way to help other people, even when they don't know them. It's the nature of humans to be generous. While I admire your boundless optimism, I don't think it will be enough to save us, democracy or not. Sure people help each other once in a while, you do, I do, but I don't think that is the norm, particularly across cultural divides. And a bullet or bomb can easily undo thousands of acts of kindness. As a race we have a long history of struggling to acquire the bullets and bombs and the biggest and deadliest weapons we can develop Unfortunately, history shows that is our nature, notable exceptions to the contrary. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Imposing democrysy
Hi Keith ; Thanks for the lengthy response. It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, that most of what you are saying is describing what is wrong with our version of democracy and what should be done to improve it. While we can debate that subject, my question was more about what does anyone think are the chances that this version, that version, or any version, can be successful. I don't think there is any chance given mankind's fundamental nature, and you seem to think there is. Sure a few people can talk about what would work, maybe even have pockets of temporary success (like America), but large scale success I believe is not possible by any mortal or group of mortals. And a genocide, and a civil war, over slavery. The interesting thing for me is that slavery was not a problem for Jesus (I'm not sure about most other major religions but I think this is true of them also), and nowhere does He mention democracy, equal rights, or any of the current cornerstone concepts we take for granted as truth. That is a surprise to me, and I wonder why, and I wonder what deep and complex lessons that might have for us, and what it tells us about our new thinking. And if democracy was not mentioned as a system of government, then what was, and why? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand www.thyroid-s.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20120303/1a7c0911/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Imposing democrysy
Hi Keith ; I think we can mostly agree that this grand experiment in democracy is not turning out so well for the USA, and the last chapter is not even in yet. But the USA had extraordinary potential at the start of this experiment: huge natural resources, huge land mass, God fearing leaders and population. So if under these excellent conditions, democracy is not a stable system for the long term (and by stable I mean thousands of years), then I ask the question: under what conditions COULD it be stable for the long term? And unfortunately my answer is: none. Dawy? :) Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20120302/397db2ca/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Five Candidates for the Corporate Death Penalty
Hi Keith ; Yes this is good, and one other thing I would nominate for the death penalty is the patenting of life forms. BR Peter G. Thailand -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20111022/6df15ef5/attachment-0001.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 9/11 conspiracy theory
Hi All ; The full length version is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW6mJOqRDI4 They have focused exclusively on Bldg 7, and they have amassed an impressive collection of experts in the field to testify about it. Buildings just don't behave that way. If they do, it is a matter of great concern to these experts, whose job it is to design buildings that keep us safe. They also spend some time discussing the psychological aspects of why some people continue to ignore reality in the face of overwhelming evidence. BR Peter G. Thailand www.thyroid-s.com --- On Tue, 9/13/11, Les Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Les Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 9/11 conspiracy theory To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2011, 2:46 PM Thank you so much, Keith. This video is worthwhile; it made my wife sit up and take note. She has taken the red pill (I think that's the one that makes it all go away) so as to not have to think about things. But this video is too wicked to ignore. I also understand there was no plane debris at the Pentagon site; they had to truck in some debris. Les On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 1:23 AM, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Everything you ever wanted to know about the 9/11 conspiracy theory in under 5 minutes. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29110.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20110914/99df04f0/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Make this the LAST Aniversary of the Bush/Cheney 9/11 Media Fairy Tale !
Hi All ; if it was all a set-up ( an inside job) it would involve at least a few hundred people, ( thousands if also the first responders had to keep quit) and could it then be, that even after ten years not 1 of them feels remorse, and came out of the closet and tell the truth, or wikileak it? This is evidence of nothing. There are many ways to keep people quiet, threats to your family for example, and I wonder how many innocents had unfortunate accidents in the months after. The evidence suggests many did. Watch the link I sent previously. These experts work with buildings their whole life, if you don't believe them, well never mind. In case you missed it, here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW6mJOqRDI4 BR Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] A Little House Of Secrets On The Great Plains
Hi Keith ; I saw this on another list and thought you would be interested to see it. A corporation is a legal person created by state statute that can be used as a fall guy, a servant, a good friend or a decoy, the company's website boasts. A person you control… yet cannot be held accountable for its actions. Imagine the possibilities! BR Peter G. Thailand A Little House Of Secrets On The Great Plains August 3rd, 2011 Via: Reuters: The secretive business havens of Cyprus and the Cayman Islands face a potent rival: Cheyenne, Wyoming. At a single address in this sleepy city of 60,000 people, more than 2,000 companies are registered. The building, 2710 Thomes Avenue, isn't a shimmering skyscraper filled with A-list corporations. It's a 1,700-square-foot brick house with a manicured lawn, a few blocks from the State Capitol. Neighbors say they see little activity there besides regular mail deliveries and a woman who steps outside for smoke breaks. Inside, however, the walls of the main room are covered floor to ceiling with numbered mailboxes labeled as corporate suites. A bulky copy machine sits in the kitchen. In the living room, a woman in a headset answers calls and sorts bushels of mail. A Reuters investigation has found the house at 2710 Thomes Avenue serves as a little Cayman Island on the Great Plains. It is the headquarters for Wyoming Corporate Services, a business-incorporation specialist that establishes firms which can be used as shell companies, paper entities able to hide assets. Wyoming Corporate Services will help clients create a company, and more: set up a bank account for it; add a lawyer as a corporate director to invoke attorney-client privilege; even appoint stand-in directors and officers as high as CEO. Among its offerings is a variety of shell known as a shelf company, which comes with years of regulatory filings behind it, lending a greater feeling of solidity. A corporation is a legal person created by state statute that can be used as a fall guy, a servant, a good friend or a decoy, the company's website boasts. A person you control… yet cannot be held accountable for its actions. Imagine the possibilities! Among the entities registered at 2710 Thomes, Reuters found, is a shelf company sheltering real-estate assets controlled by a jailed former prime minister of Ukraine, according to allegations made by a political rival in a federal court in California. The owner of another shelf company at the address was indicted in April for allegedly helping online-poker operators evade a U.S. ban on Internet gambling. The owner of two other firms there was banned from government contracting in January for selling counterfeit truck parts to the Pentagon. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article)
Hi All ; Nice, Dawie. Yes, very succinct and insightful. This piece be might be pertinent: http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/80481/game-changer?page=0,0 Game Changer Why Wikileaks will be the death of big business and big government. Keith, let me say that nothing would make me happier than if you were correct, alas there is another more sinister viewpoint. Is WikiLeaks.org “the Internet’s 9/11?” Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com WikiLeaks: Now a Household Term By Josh Ogden Neithercorp Press – 12/24/2010 A couple of months ago, if I had stood up at a dinner party and proudly declared that I had to take a “Wikileak,” nobody would have gotten the joke. I would have made a fool of myself! What changed? Well, I may still be a fool, but now everybody and their grandmother knows what WikiLeaks is, and I think if I hear Assange’s name one more time, I’m going to have a brain aneurysm. Did WikiLeaks do something different? The November 28 release of US diplomatic cables (dubbed ‘Cablegate’) may have been larger in file size than previous data dumps, but has it yet revealed anything as visceral or intense as the 17-minute video (released in April of 2010) in which 12 people, including two Reuters journalists, are gunned down by an AH-64 Apache helicopter? The difference lies, almost entirely, in the way the corporate media is now treating the subject. There has been a clear shift in the posture and strategy of mainstream news sources, US officials and prominent political figures. WikiLeaks.org has been thrust to the forefront of the global news cycle. As we all know, the most important news is often that which is reported least; those stories which are aggressively censored and sometimes even retro-actively removed from mainstream news feeds. Suddenly, the innermost circles of controlled media appear to be playing a different game with WikiLeaks. They have pointed their spotlight at it. This is what originally raised my suspicions that something must be amiss. Perhaps most suspicious of all was when Time magazine began extensively covering WikiLeaks, and named Julian Assange as Readers Choice for Person of the Year. Though that “honor” officially went to Facebook.com creator and NSA darling Mark Zuckerberg, the sustained focus on Assange and WikiLeaks by Time and other elite publications was a major red flag. It became apparent that the globalist establishment had taken a special interest in WikiLeaks, and that they wanted it to become a household term. Many people believe that when a story dominates the international news cycle for weeks on end, it’s because that story is important, or because it’s something the public wants to read about. They have it backwards. Media monopolists have known for a long time that they are the ones who decide what’s “important,” and they get to decide what the public “wants” to read about. In the spirit of the examples set by Time Magazine and old Bill Hearst, media does not reflect public interest and opinion, it aims to manufacture it. It’s this reversal of causality that makes media consolidation so dangerous. Julian Assange and his associates may have made WikiLeaks.org, but the mainstream media made it famous. Questions Abound Is Mr. Assange an asset? Is the intelligence cooked? Did some George Soros foundation provide funding for WikiLeaks? What games are afoot here??? First off, let me address the Soros angle. John Young of Cryptome.org has conducted an investigation into the allegations that WikiLeaks was financed through some George Soros organization, and could not confirm any of these claims. You can read that thread here, along with email responses from representatives of Soros’ Open Society Foundations and tax reports which make no mention of WikiLeaks. Do we trust Soros’ underlings to tell the truth? Not likely! Conclusion: this can be neither confirmed, nor denied. (But if Glenn Beck’s talking about it, it’s probably a dead-end.) Moving on… Julian Assange has a long history of outspokenness against corruption, and considerable “street cred” among hackers. His skills and intelligence are beyond question. But we all know that there are innumerable ways by which people can be made to compromise their ethics. Although I have modified my stance several times already as new information comes to my attention, I do not currently believe that Julian Assange is an intelligence asset. However, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt on that, especially considering his troubling remarks about 9/11. Forgive me if I’m out of line here, but I think the guy who invented deniable encryption should be smart enough to know that skyscrapers don’t just magically demolish themselves when the smoke detectors go off. Which leads me to the next question… Where’s the hard-hitting 9/11 evidence? Among all the data released thus far, I don’t think there has been so much as a single memorandum, or even a sticky note, pertaining to that
Re: [Biofuel] greenhouse farming
Hi Dan and All ; I live in South Dakota and have been thinking that with energy efficient glass and the right setup that growing fresh vegetables likes tomatoes year around might be possible (I say this with a wind chill today near 0 fahrenheit). I live in the tropics so I don't have this problem, but if I did, here's what I would do. Your ROI will depend on construction costs, operating costs (heating), and profit from selling the vegetables. You should try to minimize construction costs, minimize heating costs, and maximize vegetable output. First of all, your plan must include a way to cover the glass glazing at night with high R material to reduce heat losses at night or your plants will freeze at night. Second, you can increase your heat gain by adding reflectors that direct more sunlight into your greenhouse. My recommendation would be to try to accomplish both in the same structure. Third, a high thermal mass foundation and north facing walls will help to even out the temperature swings. During the winter, the sun will be low in the sky. The roof should be designed that most or all of the roof area is south facing. In other words, the high point of the roof runs along the north facing edge, and the entire roof slopes down toward the south facing edge. Your glass glazing should be double walled. There are new types which are evacuated, heat losses are extremely low, and these are great if you can afford them. To cover the glazing at night, design a cover which is hinged on the north facing edge of the roof and can be jacked up on the south facing edge. If you jack it up far enough (almost vertical), the bottom surface can be made to face towards the sun. The bottom surface of this cover can be made of reflective film which can reflect more sun into your greenhouse and could almost double your heat gain during the daytime. This will need to be sturdy because it will act as a big sail and in high winds could be a problem if left in the up position. The north facing wall and the foundation should be high thermal mass to even out temperature swings. High thermal mass reduces the temperature RISE during the day, and reduces the temperature FALL during the night. Finally, you should to be using a high density planting strategy like square foot gardening or hydroponics to maximize your output. Good idea to do a business model in Excel and see how the finances look before starting. Hope you can understand my descriptions. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Weather report
Hi Keith ; Thanks for the weather update in Japan. At my farm in Cambodia I have my staff trained to collect rainwater in a calibrated jar and record the data and totals by month, which we have been doing for about 4 years now. Yes very dry again this year and for the last 3 years also. September is usually the wettest month, so we still have some hope. Not easy to have a successful farm with no rain in the rainy season! BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Weather report
Hi Keith ; Thanks for the weather update in Japan. At my farm in Cambodia I have my staff trained to collect rainwater in a calibrated jar and record the data and totals by month, which we have been doing for about 4 years now. Yes very dry again this year and for the last 3 years also. September is usually the wettest month, so we still have some hope. Not easy to have a successful farm with no rain in the rainy season! BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Judge: Gene Patents Are Invalid
Hi All ; Keith we discussed this before on-list. This is great news!! There will be a lot of pressure from Big Ag to overturn this. And where is the mainstream press on this story? This needs everyone's support. Invalidating gene patents would be a huge positive in ensuring crop diversity and food supply. BR Peter G. www.gac-seeds.com http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100329/1506458769.shtml Judge: Gene Patents Are Invalid In a huge ruling, U.S. District Judge Robert Sweet has said that gene patents are invalid. As you may recall, last May, the ACLU was the first to finally challenge whether or not genes could be patented. There was a lot of back and forth over the case, with many saying that a ruling against gene patents would throw a wrench into the business plans of many companies, because so many biotech/medical companies have been relying on the idea that gene patents must be valid for so long. But just because many companies relied on a mistaken understanding of patent law, doesn't mean that it should be allowed to continue. The judge made the point clear when it came to gene patents, saying that they: are directed to a law of nature and were therefore improperly granted. The case was brought against Myriad Genetics, who will surely appeal, so this is nowhere close to over. But it involved a test for breast cancer, that Myriad basically had a monopoly over -- and the claim was that this not only made it more difficult for women to get tested, but it also greatly discouraged other research in the field. In part, this was because the patents that Myriad held were incredibly broad. Patents, of course, are not supposed to be granted on things found in in nature -- and it's hard to argue against the idea that genes are found in nature. Supporters of gene patents often claim that they're not really gene patents, but a patent on identifying the gene, which is a nice semantic game that the judge clearly saw through. This is a huge step forward for encouraging more real research into genetic testing, rather than locking up important information. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100406/539652a5/attachment-0001.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S.D.A. Plans to Drop Program to Trace Livestock
Hi Keith ; The title is very misleading. They never say they are dropping the program, just dropping this version of the program. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com --- On Fri, 2/5/10, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] U.S.D.A. Plans to Drop Program to Trace Livestock To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 1:12 PM http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/05/business/05livestock.html?scp=1sq=usdast=cse U.S.D.A. Plans to Drop Program to Trace Livestock By WILLIAM NEUMAN Published: February 5, 2010 Faced with stiff resistance from ranchers and farmers, the Obama administration has decided to scrap a national program intended to help authorities quickly identify and track livestock in the event of an animal disease outbreak. In abandoning the program, called the National Animal Identification System, officials said they would start over in trying to devise a livestock tracing program that could win widespread support from the industry. The agriculture secretary, Tom Vilsack, will announce the changes on Friday, according to officials at the Agriculture Department, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the decision had not yet been made public. The officials said that it would be left to the states to devise many aspects of a new system, including requirements for identifying livestock. New federal rules will be developed but the officials said they would apply only to animals being moved in interstate commerce, such as cattle raised in one state being transported to a slaughterhouse in another state. It could take two years or more to create new federal rules, the officials said, and it was not clear how far the government would go to restrict the movement of livestock between states if the animals did not meet basic traceability standards. The system was created by the Bush administration in 2004 after the discovery in late 2003 of a cow infected with mad cow disease. Participation of ranchers and farmers in the identification system was voluntary, but the goal was to give every animal, or in the case of pigs and poultry, groups of animals, a unique identification number that would be entered in a database. The movements of animals would be tracked, and if there was a disease outbreak or a sick animal was found, officials could quickly locate other animals that had been exposed. But the system quickly drew the ire of many farmers and ranchers, particularly cattle producers. Some objected to the cost of identification equipment and the extra work in having to report their animals' movements. Others said they believed the voluntary system would become mandatory, that it was intrusive and that the federal government would use it to pry into their lives and finances. The old system received $142 million in federal financing, but gained the participation of only 40 percent of the nation's livestock producers, according to a report by the Congressional Research Service. When Mr. Vilsack took over the Agriculture Department last year, he began a series of public meetings on the identification program and was bombarded by strident opposition. Agriculture officials said that most details of a new system would be worked out in the coming months through consultation with the livestock industry and the states. It was just overwhelming in the country that people didn't like it, and I think they took that feedback to heart, said Mary Kay Thatcher, public policy director of the American Farm Bureau Federation, which had opposed the identification system. I think it's good they've at least said we're going to do something different. Carol Tucker Foreman, a food safety expert of the Consumer Federation of America, agreed that the old system was not working and needed to be changed. But she worried that a new system that could have different rules in every state might not be effective. It's very, very hard to have an effective state-by-state program, she said. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100206/8196a94c/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U. S. Head of Military Intelligence Publically States 9/11 was Staged Event
Hi All ; Here is link to the official lab report from Netherlands which found super thermite in WTC dust. Free download. Anyone technical will appreciate the attention to detail and thoroughness of this report. It certainly raises some disturbing questions. http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/0002/0001/7TOCPJ.SGM BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U. S. Head of Military Intelligence Publically States 9/11 was Staged Event To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 12:56 PM Hi Chris i think you hit the nail, david. i remember i called in sick that day and slept in. when i rolled out of bed and turned on the tube, saw those endlessly repeating videos plastered over fvery channel. the very first thing that crossed my mind was that suddenly the whole business in florida, dragging in the supreme court, it all made sense. there's a lot of questions that need answering, and a lot to be answered for wrt the events of that day (well, a lot of other days, too). whether the buildings went down on their own, or needed a little extra help, is kind of beside the point. [btw, my apologies if i'm repeating myself here, i thought i said the above yesterday but the comment seems to be missing from the thread. . . .] I read it, it's here: http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg74540.html Chris Burck Wed, 09 Sep 2009 Best Keith I'm not suggesting that some agency wasn't aware of what was about to happen, and they could have used it to bury records in WTC7, it's just that I'm not convinced that the two main buildings were brought down by anything other than the planes. If you think otherwise, please include the fact that the buildings fell from the point of impact into your theory. David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] solar collector window - absorbtion cooling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator http://www.cogeneration.net/solar_absorption_cooling.htm http://www.homepower.com/article/?file=HP53_pg20_Vanek --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Dawie Coetzee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dawie Coetzee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] solar collector window To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 11:39 PM The old ammonia-absorption process should be able to work with biofuel or wood as a fuel. -D From: Gary Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 5:17:27 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] solar collector window Keith - I looked at your response to the solar window post and link. I remember seeing a movie called the Mosquito Coast (possibly with Harrison Ford) set in Africa (I think). The man developed a freezer burning wood. After seeing the picture on your link, I was wondering if you've seen such a thing tailored around a boiler. I heat my house hot water with biofuel. Why not cool it in the manner previously described? Any thoughts? Have you seen such a plan? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks. Gary Frank -Original Message- From: Dawie Coetzee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:25 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] solar collector window Indeed. Low-yield photo-thermal is interesting to me right now. There seems to me to be useful energy available in indirect hot-water collectors at stagnation, if one has space for a bulky low-stressed Stirling engine and isn't greedy for energy. However, what is lacking in the solar world is a set of rules-of-thumb, that would allow people to get some sort of idea of what sort of yield they might expect for any given level of effort. The people who could benefit most from appropriate solar energy are least in a position to experiment. Climates differ and solar radiation varies from moment to moment, but there must surely be more scope for workable guidelines for the informal constructor than what is out there now. Best regards Dawie Coetzee From: Jason Mier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, 24 August, 2009 11:52:45 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] solar collector window I don't really know my way round solar stuff (yet - next stop maybe), so my sense of what smells right doesn't go very far. Keith, don't sell yourself short, solar is simple. you only really have two options, transferring energy, or reflecting it. the only hangup is PV uses expensive chemicals to do it. solar thermal solar steam (a little risky) reflective insulation (window quilts, etc.) solar refrigeration!! http://www.solarmirror.com/www_jul01/fridge.html given the proper application of junk, baling wire, and good math, anyone can do solar power, its not rocket surgery as the professionals would like us to think. if everybody realized how simple it was the pros would be out of work- just like anything else. as you say Follow the money. jason _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackT oSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090824/b6fedd63/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090827/fb0ce4e1/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Pigdozer update.
Hi Keith ; Quick update for you about our pigdozer project. Our previous system for preparing a field for planting was the normal Cambodia way : 1) Plow in dry season to upturn roots and kill them. 2) Wait for some rain, this will germinate the remaining weed seeds. 3) Plow again. 4) Plow one more time before wet season to level for planting. This always infuriated me, because the naked earth was baking under the hot sun during the dry season. This KILLS the soil. But the concept was lost on them. They could see no other way to kill the weeds. We set up an electric fence. There was a bit of a learning experinence for the pigs, but they are not stupid. Now they will not touch the fence. My staff report that they could be running away from something and they stop at the fence like a car puts on brakes. We flood the field with water every two days. The pigs kill the grass and dig out all the strong roots of bamboo and other plants. Their weight is increasing, but slower than if fed by commercial feed. We also let them eat oil palm fruits, which they accept readily. They also love breadfruit, and we planted local water spinach and just let them get it by themselves. We hit a bell when we give them table rice scraps in the evening. They follow the guy with the bell like puppy dogs. If they ever do get out of the fence, we hit the bell and the pigs come running. Everyone is amazed, even the guy that took care of pigs for many years. He never thought it possible for the pigs to follow him around like puppy dogs. The report back is that the rice is growing VERY well in the area dug by the pigs. This is making big news with the locals. Now I get a wet, dug, and fertilized field without doing any work, without killing the soil, and without spending any money on diesel or pig food, and I get pig meat (and biogas later when we get to it). Fantastic! Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pigdozer update.
Hi Chris ; Biogas is a future project. To prepare for it, we have the pigs sleep in the pig barn. They are used to walking around following the guy with the bell. This way we can lead them anywhere. Sleeping in the barn provides some raw material for biogas in a consistent place, when we get around to implementation. Getting them used to the system when they are young helps. Once they are 60-80kg, much more difficult to handle them in a new situation. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cold fusion experimentally confirmed
Hi All ; i'm wondering how this could be done, and still be cold. Fusion means pushing together pieces of atoms which are repelling each other due to like electrical charge. The vast majority of mainstream scientists do not believe cold fusion is possible. Of course, it is possible they could all be wrong (it has happened before). There are other reviews of this experiment on the net, some of which mention that the released report does not offer a plausible explanation about how this could work, and secondly, the experimenters fail to take into account other possible sources of the neutrons which were detected. which is worse: fighting over disappearing fuel sources and cutting waste, or feeding the current system? Excellent point. When oil was discovered it was a cheap 'limitless' power source. The resources of the sea, air, earth itself were limitless. Anyone at the time predicting the serious problems and dislocations caused by cheap oil would have been scorned. It took 100 years before anyone thought about the dangerous direction we were headed, and those pioneering thinkers were also scorned. Be assured that even if cold fusion were possible, there will be serious side effects which are difficult to predict at this time. A basic question for me is : Do I believe this force would be used for good and to help the little guy? Of would this force end up concentrated with the big guys at the top? And do you think that our guys will be the only ones to figure this out? Let's hope it is not true. If it were true, what it might be able to do is power our expansion into space so we can colonize and screw up even more planets. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Pics of PigDozer, and Farm Update.
Hi All ; As diesel becomes scarcer we will need ways to prepare farmland for planting which use less fuel. Check out the awesome pig dozer pics at : http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,39642.0.html Sorry about long delay for farm update, still chugging along. We started and orphange which is partially funded through a tax free charity in the USA. They will all know how to make biodiesel! You can see some pics at : www.cresard.com/pr03 We track and graph rainfall by month so we know when to expect rainfall. Very dry last year, basically a drought condition. Corn crop failed twice. Hope it rains more this year. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pig Dozer pics and farm update.
Hi Keith ; I did not see this post. This happened to me before and you checked and it was in the archives. Something strange is going on. BR Peter G. Thailland Keith you are going to love this. Check out the awesome pig dozer pics at : http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,39642.0.html Sorry about long delay for farm update, still chugging along. We started and orphange which is partially funded through a tax free charity in the USA. You can see some pics at : www.cresard.com/pr03 We track and graph rainfall by month so we know when to expect rainfall. Very dry last year, basically a drought condition. Corn crop failed twice. Hope it rains more this year. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Pig Dozer pics and farm update.
Hi Keith ; I did not see this post. I sent it to sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org. This happened to me before and you checked and it was in the archives. Something strange is going on. BR Peter G. Thailland Keith you are going to love this. Check out the awesome pig dozer pics at : http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,39642.0.html Sorry about long delay for farm update, still chugging along. We started and orphange which is partially funded through a tax free charity in the USA. You can see some pics at : www.cresard.com/pr03 We track and graph rainfall by month so we know when to expect rainfall. Very dry last year, basically a drought condition. Corn crop failed twice. Hope it rains more this year. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Pig Dozer pics and farm update.
Keith you are going to love this. Check out the awesome pig dozer pics at : http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,39642.0.html Sorry about long delay for farm update, still chugging along. We started and orphange which is partially funded through a tax free charity in the USA. You can see some pics at : www.cresard.com/pr03 We track and graph rainfall by month so we know when to expect rainfall. Very dry last year, basically a drought condition. Corn crop failed twice. Hope it rains more this year. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Thai Legislation Regulating 13 Hazardous Common Herbs.
Hi All ; From yesterday's Bangkok Post. This is still being hotly debated, and the gov't may back down this time, but the dark forces behind this won't just stop and go away. On the list to be regulated as Hazardous are Citronella grass, chilli, tumeric, ginger, Chinese ginger, Chinese celery, neem, African marigold, glory lilly, Siam weed, stemona, and tea seed cake. Start saving those seeds BR Peter G. Thailand http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/11379/farmers-up-in-arms-at-herb-listing Farmers up in arms at herb listing Chilli, turmeric, ginger branded 'hazardous' By: KULTIDA SAMABUDDHI and APIRADEE TREERUTKUARKUL Published: 11/02/2009 at 12:00 AM Farmers and traditional medicine experts have reacted angrily to the listing of 13 widely used herbal plants as hazardous substances, suggesting there is a hidden agenda that favours chemical companies. The Industry Ministry listed the 13 plants as hazardous substances to control production and commercialisation.The plants are widely used among farmers as alternatives for expensive and toxic farm chemicals, pesticides and herbicides. The announcement on listing the plants as hazardous substances type 1 under the 1992 Hazardous Substances Act was approved by Industry Minister Charnchai Chairungruang last month. It took effect on Feb 3.Proposed by the Department of Agriculture, which is a member of the hazardous substances committee, the announcement requires growers, manufacturers, importers and exporters of pesticides, herbicides and plant disease control substances made from the 13 herbal plants to follow safety and quality control regulations issued by the committee. Otherwise they will face six months in jail and/or a fine of 50,000 baht.Farmer advocates yesterday said putting the herbal plants on the controlled list would hurt growers as they could no longer produce, trade and use botanical pesticides and herbicides freely.Farmers and producers of the organic substances might have to pay more for registration, packaging and testing as required by the law, said Witoon Lianchamroon, of Biothai, a non-government organisation working on organic farming.He suspected the motive behind the listing.Multinational chemical companies are expected to benefit once production and commercialisation of the alternative substances is curbed, he said.Large numbers of farmers have switched recently from imported chemicals to botanical substances as they are much cheaper and safer, he said.Instead of tightening controls on these farmer-friendly herbal plants, the committee should crack down on multinational companies who exploit Thai farmers by luring them into buying their highly toxic and costly products, Mr Witoon said.Tussanee Verakan, coordinator of the Alternative Agriculture Network, said the committee produced the list in secret without consulting farmers who would be the hardest-hit.The government keeps promoting organic farming and reduction of chemical use, she said. Why did they put such heavy restrictions on organic substances which are the heart of organic farming?Department deputy chief Jirakorn Kosaisevi insisted the listing was aimed at protecting benefits for farmers.The announcement is not intended to protect chemical producers, Mr Jirakorn said.These botanical pesticides are widely used and traded. They should be controlled to ensure they are up to standard.The new regulation would help promote herbal products, he said.Department for Development of Thai Traditional and Alternative Medicine deputy director-general Prapot Paetrakas said the 13 plants were core materials in herbal medicines. Controlling their manufacture and trade could affect the herbal medicine industry, he said.The department will discuss the issue with legal experts and others on Friday. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home
Hi David and All ; The reason I said it's a very difficult problem is because it's a very difficult problem. My feeling is that the problem is made difficult to understand by the current teachers of all persuasions who never clearly explain it. Perhaps they themselves lack understanding. Consider: No saints exist except for grace. We can choose to turn toward the light or away, but ultimately the All-Powerful chooses. Correct. No time to find it now, but Christ said that God decides who is drawn to Him. Then it is up to us to decide (we have been given free choice). It seems to me that any god which needs for suffering to exist in order to reveal which of us is a saint is ipso facto a god who is not all-knowing, i.e. not God. Further, any god that would allow innocent children to suffer, starve, and die-- to be crucified in pain-- simply because a bell curve is more important than that child is, again, not God. There must have been a reason why God allowed His only son to suffer and die. Please see my previous post. God watched His only son being crucified, had the power to stop it, and didn't. There must be a reason. Find it. If God is love, then what is loving about such suffering? Wouldn't any of us, if we had any knowledge of that child's condition, and any slight power to relieve her pain-- Wouldn't any of us act to do that? Then why doesn't the All-Knowing, the All-Powerful act? One might think so, but how many people turn a blind eye to Fallujah? I asked this same question in a different form in my previous email about leprosy. Why didn't Jesus show them the cure? Do offense at all intended David, but you seem to be asking a question and not really expecting an answer. There is an answer. Find it. Jesus was asked about the man born blind. His Deciples asked Him Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?. Jesus answered Neither sinned, he was born blind to show the power of God. What could this mean? (This is not a rhetorical question). Some of the answers you seek are here, and in my previous email. In my case, when I lifted up that precious, lifeless beautiful child, in that terrible moment, I knew that she was gone, and that in a way I cannot explain, that absence was powerful proof that she was present elsewhere. David I am so sorry about your loss, and I cannot pretend to know about your pain, and I can see your great sadness. God willing I'll know more tomorrow. And I think that's part of the answer too. Your post shows your deep understanding. Perhaps you are still grieving and the time is not right. There are answers to all your questions. Find them. The answers are not unknowable. Many thanks to moderator Keith, we are WAY off the thread. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home
Hi David and All ; Wow, I am impressed. I feel I have some answers for you, I will offer them up if I may, the other folks on the list may not be ready to listen and understand. So here's the problem: If He had the powers you appear to believe He had (and that I believe He had), then why would He have let mankind come to it's present difficulties, or to any difficulty, for that matter, regardless of scope or era or proximate cause? It would seem that either these problems are unnecessary and God is cruel for allowing them to exist (a conclusion that many have reached, often as a waystation to becoming an atheist), or that there is a fundamental reason why doubt, danger and difficulties are a necessary part of the human condition. I believe your second postulate is close to target. There is a fundamental reason. This is a very difficult question indeed. It seems to me, however, that there is no courage unless there is danger, no faith without a context of doubt, and nothing for which to strive except to overcome difficulties in achieving better ends. (Although quite frankly this is only part of the answer-- the outside surface of a great mystery-- since while these things are true, they don't reach all the way to such issues as why children suffer and starve, for example.) Yes they do if you think it through. When I was a teaching assistant at college I at first wanted to pass everyone, but then I realized : How can it be possible for anyone to be a star if everyone passes and no one fails? If I make a test super easy and everyone gets a perfect grade, how can I differentiate between the excellent students and bad? Answer: I can't. I need a bell curve to seperate the good students from the bad. I need to fail some to allow some to shine. And secondly : If the students all know that I will give them the super easy test, how many excellent students will emerge from my class? Answer : none. The test NEEDS to be tough. An easy test accomplishes nothing. Tough tests result in more students who are excellent, and yes some failures. The world must be a tough place to allow the Saints to be revealed, and this includes suffering of children and everyone else. Suffering sets the stage for our test. Suppose that Christ or God did change human nature so that evil was impossible; or suppose They had created a world in which it was impossible to injure yourself or others; or a world in which truth was self-evident, entirely and to everyone; a world where it was impossible to suffer or starve. Impossible to lie, impossible to be injured or die; impossible to suffer; impossible even to consider the possibility of evil. What kind of world would that be? What kind of people would we be? Good... for nothing? Excellent point. Yes good for nothing, certainly not good for Christ's master plan. This is the easy test scenario which, as discussed above, accomplishes nothing. In my view Christ did not offer technology because it was more or less irrelevant to the point He was making, which was quite simply that we should all practice the Golden Rule, or the Noble Eightfold Way, or the prescriptions of the other Great Teachers, all of Whom, as has been said here, taught essentially the same thing. As you imply, that's the purpose of life. OK David you might be right, but I can still ask a simple question. Leprosy was causing HUGE suffering, hardship, and sorrow at the time. Why did Christ not offer a simple cure to alleviate the suffering? I can only conclude that He must have felt that the suffering was preferred to the technological fix. Being a technical guy, this is a sobering point for me. Therefore as you know, the rest gets added if we just do those things, and the rest becomes a source of sorrow and pain if we do not, as anyone's own experience and the world's history bear witness. That line of thinking, of course, puts the onus back on us, although again without answering the question. The question can be answered and it is much bigger than you think. In order to understand the whole picture you must first ponder and answer another question : Why did Christ not retaliate for any of the evil done to him? In other words, hanging on the cross MUST HAVE HURT. Now sure, a lot of people have been crucified, but NONE were ever crucified for no reason (except to offer the gift of life), and who had the option to come down from the cross. Think about it. It was the ultimate wrong, and He took it right to the end without a single complaint. Who would allow themselves to be crucifed and suffocated to the end if they had the choice to come down off the cross? I am SURE I could not have done that. Christ demonstrated the ultimate subjugation to the evil that was done to Him for no reason. Why did He allow it? (This message was beautifully portrayed in the movie
Re: [Biofuel] Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home
Hi All ; In other words, it seems to me that anyone who really believes this should argue vociferously against the infection of democracy. Yes and of course. My contention all along is that Democracy is not a stable system. Witness our own experiment with it. With a huge and resource rich land area, America had the best chance of success, and for a short time there was resounding success. But it has allowed the current problems to emerge and flourish. The current direction is not a good one, USA is headsed for a police state, and the final chapter is not in yet. How sad. The big paradox is : This is exactly why the PTB need to spread it. Because it doesn't work, but allows them to control the people of the world for their benefit. They can't control the people of the world if those people are led by religious fanatics or dictators. The international bankers which are the Fed are getting fabulously rich as we speak. The assets of the USA are being transferred to them. What is happening to us is NOT an accident. But we are getting off the thread. BR Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home
Hi Keith and All ; Not much time to elaborate on this subject, and I am ok with your views and mine. Could this be the reason that almost all religious leaders (and by that I mean Jesus, Mohammad, Bhuddha, etc) shun technology. Do they? Jesus was a carpenter, what did he use to cut wood, his teeth? He said nice things about chickens, but chickens are not as Mother Nature made them, they're a technological fix. So is agriculture itself, and I don't think Jesus, Mohammad or Buddha opposed it. If Jesus was who He said He was, then why couldn't He have invented electricity? A simple chemical battery could have been made at the time with almost no effort? Or anti-biotics? Cure for leprosy? Penicillin is easy to make in a petri dish. Or ANY other technological improvements? I have pondered over this one for many hours. He certainly could have if He wanted to. So my conclusion is HE DIDNT WANT TO. Why not? Answer (in my humble view) : He knew that, due to man's nature, these things would only propel mankind faster on the road to oblivion. He only used what was available at the time but offered NO improvements. One must wonder why. And this is not the purpose of life anyway. Sure technology has given us open heart surgery and moonflight, but 500 years from now, if planet earth is burnt and lifeless due to our actions(air and water pollution, nuclear exchange, global warming, infectious disease, extinctions, etc.), then what can we say about technology? Would you ascribe all that to technology? Tools are just tools, it depends what you do with them. The cases you cite are very largely not the result of humans using tools and technology, the scale is different, it's the scale that corporations and governments operate on, not people. Most people aren't so dumb. It's not the technology that's the problem, it's this: How to kill a mammoth: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30628.html See the problem with rational people is that they cannot see how the irrational mind works. In yesterdays newspaper there was an article about a devoted mom in Japan who was injecting her own baby with sewage water so the baby would be sick so she could continue to care for the baby. Three previous babies of hers died and the last one is in critical condition. There will always be people bent on destruction for one reason or another, certainly corporations magnify the problem greatly. But you must also realize the destruction is infinitely easier that creation. There is a very real reason for this. During creation it is necessary to create order. During destruction it is not. It took me 2 hours to create the email, I can delete it in a millisecond. It could take 6 months of huge effort and $100K to build a house, and only a single paper match and no effort to destroy it. To create an aerosol that makes people sick is far easier that creating an aerosol that makes people well. But you keep shying away from that distinction. So you keep hitting the wrong target. Well, you didn't answer my question either. But I don't shy away as you say, I have agreed with this when you said it numerous times in the past and I have agreed numerous times in the past. Keith please stop saying that I disagree with this point, because I don't. I AGREE WITH YOU that corporations are the main problem. But to me the distiction is irrelevant. If I say that skydiving is dangerous, does it matter that you are killed not by the skydiving itself but equipment failure, or gravity, or a broken neck, or the electron clouds of the molecules of the ground repelling the electron clouds of the molecules of your body due to the Pauli Exclusion Principle? I can say the skydiving is dangerous without pinpointing the exact cause of death. The last condition is much worse than the first, even if the first is a caveman existance and even including leprosy and black plague etc. The thing about cavemen is they didn't live in caves, that's where the big cats lived that liked eating cavemen. They eventually learnt to fight the cats, but not until they'd mastered fire. Definitely a technological fix. Cavemen with clubs, spears, knives... Quite a few animals also use tools, and so do birds. Is this all bad technology, in your view? Well Keith you asked the question so I will answer it this way. If we were still hunter/gatherers being eaten by big cats, would be have the financial crisis? Global warming? Peak oil and resource depletion? Depleted uranium and white phosphorous? Acid rain? Over-population? Obesity? Yes our lives would be very different, but we would have reached an equilibrium with nature. What technology almost always does is move us into unsustainability and the equilibrium with nature may no longer be possible. BR Peter G. Thailand ___
Re: [Biofuel] Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home
Hi Keith ; I didn't see this post... BR Peter G. --- On Sun, 12/28/08, Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 2:53 AM Hi All ; In other words, it seems to me that anyone who really believes this should argue vociferously against the infection of democracy. Yes and of course. My contention all along is that Democracy is not a stable system. Witness our own experiment with it. With a huge and resource rich land area, America had the best chance of success, and for a short time there was resounding success. But it has allowed the current problems to emerge and flourish. The current direction is not a good one, USA is headsed for a police state, and the final chapter is not in yet. How sad. The big paradox is : This is exactly why the PTB need to spread it. Because it doesn't work, but allows them to control the people of the world for their benefit. They can't control the people of the world if those people are led by religious fanatics or dictators. The international bankers which are the Fed are getting fabulously rich as we speak. The assets of the USA are being transferred to them. What is happening to us is NOT an accident. But we are getting off the thread. BR Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home
Hi Keith ; I have made the point previously many times on-list that genetic engineering is not the answer to anything and in fact it will kill millions of people. This is one way. So many times with technology we find that the last condition is worse than the first. Extrapolating this out to its logical conclusion, we find that all technology advances are bad. Could this be the reason that almost all religious leaders (and by that I mean Jesus, Mohammad, Bhuddha, etc) shun technology. Anyone that proposes technological fixes will find themselves at odds with Jesus. Um, who do you think is right? Sure technology has given us open heart surgery and moonflight, but 500 years from now, if planet earth is burnt and lifeless due to our actions(air and water pollution, nuclear exchange, global warming, infectious disease, extinctions, etc.), then what can we say about technology? The last condition is much worse than the first, even if the first is a caveman existance and even including leprosy and black plague etc. BR Peter G. Thailand http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081225/ap_on_sc/do_it_yourself_dna;_ylt=AjW2XcTZOjvv__NlwrDzXTZ34T0D Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home Associated Press Writer Marcus Wohlsen, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 38 mins ago AP – Meredith L. Patterson, a computer programmer by day, conducts an experiment in the dining room of her … SAN FRANCISCO – The Apple computer was invented in a garage. Same with the Google search engine. Now, tinkerers are working at home with the basic building blocks of life itself. Using homemade lab equipment and the wealth of scientific knowledge available online, these hobbyists are trying to create new life forms through genetic engineering — a field long dominated by Ph.D.s toiling in university and corporate laboratories. In her San Francisco dining room lab, for example, 31-year-old computer programmer Meredith L. Patterson is trying to develop genetically altered yogurt bacteria that will glow green to signal the presence of melamine, the chemical that turned Chinese-made baby formula and pet food deadly. People can really work on projects for the good of humanity while learning about something they want to learn about in the process, she said. So far, no major gene-splicing discoveries have come out anybody's kitchen or garage. But critics of the movement worry that these amateurs could one day unleash an environmental or medical disaster. Defenders say the future Bill Gates of biotech could be developing a cure for cancer in the garage. Many of these amateurs may have studied biology in college but have no advanced degrees and are not earning a living in the biotechnology field. Some proudly call themselves biohackers — innovators who push technological boundaries and put the spread of knowledge before profits. In Cambridge, Mass., a group called DIYbio is setting up a community lab where the public could use chemicals and lab equipment, including a used freezer, scored for free off Craigslist, that drops to 80 degrees below zero, the temperature needed to keep many kinds of bacteria alive. Co-founder Mackenzie Cowell, a 24-year-old who majored in biology in college, said amateurs will probably pursue serious work such as new vaccines and super-efficient biofuels, but they might also try, for example, to use squid genes to create tattoos that glow. Cowell said such unfettered creativity could produce important discoveries. We should try to make science more sexy and more fun and more like a game, he said. Patterson, the computer programmer, wants to insert the gene for fluorescence into yogurt bacteria, applying techniques developed in the 1970s. She learned about genetic engineering by reading scientific papers and getting tips from online forums. She ordered jellyfish DNA for a green fluorescent protein from a biological supply company for less than $100. And she built her own lab equipment, including a gel electrophoresis chamber, or DNA analyzer, which she constructed for less than $25, versus more than $200 for a low-end off-the-shelf model. Jim Thomas of ETC Group, a biotechnology watchdog organization, warned that synthetic organisms in the hands of amateurs could escape and cause outbreaks of incurable diseases or unpredictable environmental damage. Once you move to people working in their garage or other informal location, there's no safety process in place, he said. Some also fear that terrorists might attempt do-it-yourself genetic engineering. But Patterson said: A terrorist doesn't need to go to the DIYbio community. They can just enroll in their local community college. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and
Re: [Biofuel] How To Legally Avoid Unwanted Immunizations Of All Kinds
Hi Ivan ; By not vaccinating a child you are putting the entire population at risk, How? If the vaccine works as advertised, the vaccinnated should not be affected by the unvaccinated child's disease. If the vaccine does not work as advertized, why give it? and yes, if a few die, of a strange reaction, so be it. OK but what if millions? BR Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi David ; www.gac-seeds.com Very interesting site! Do you think that Gâc fruits would mature in Oregon? We had our first frost in November, we usually have our last frost at the end of April and beginning of May. I have one other customer in Oregon, but just planted this year and no winter experience yet. Why don't you send me your address offlist and I will send you 20 seeds. I just ask for an occasional status report so I can update the site. The flowers bloom quickly after planting (3 months), the fruits take a few months, the root tuber might survive the winter, it might work. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi David ; You know I really believe that you are a nice person and you have really great thoughts and ideals, so there is nothing personal in my response. ...cut We now stand at the threshold of a global civilization, diverse-- yes-- but unified. Sorry for that severe cut, I don't have too much time to write an eloquent response. I don't think the data fits your assertions. Total military spending worldwide for 2007 was an astonishing $1.2 TRILLION. http://www.infoplease.com/us/military/largest-world-military-expenditures.html Then we have the other effects I mentioned previously, ie. pollution (cost to the planet is how many US$Trillions?), crime, etc. This does not sound like we are moving in the right direction to me (the right direction being peace and harmony and unity). In fact, from my vantage point outside the US, I can say we are moving in exactly the WRONG direction. Please correct me if I am wrong. BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Annuals converted into perennials
Hi David ; cut wrote the two volume /Edible Forests/, which offers a good ...cut Yes I agree, there is much potential in tree crops and other perennials. What are you growing on your farm? Selling prices are generally higher for tree crops, it is better for the land and soil fertility, and less work too, but people generally don't plant and develope them due to the time lag to production. Yearly crops are more attractive due to fast return. Billions of people are in poverty. You cannot tell them to wait 3-4 years for income. How to change the vision of the people? Speaking for myself, I feel quite certain that we will grow up, as a species, and become a proper steward of the planet, peaceful, productive, wise and unified. In my view it's inevitable. (But then, as we make poor choices along the way, so is a requisite measure of suffering...) There are several good books on this subject (J. Diamond for example). Yes in the past sometimes we have beed successful and sometimes not, the failures have been many and spectacular. Not sure why we think we are any better than those in the past. You must understand that they too thought they were super smart and clever. Aren't we polluting the air and water faster than ever, frantically digging oil wells faster than ever?? Many species going extinct faster than ever? Bombing innocent civilians with depleted uranium faster than ever? How to slow the juggernaut? Then after that, we maybe can stop it. Then after that maybe we can turn it around. How to do it?? BR Peter G. Thailand www.gac-seeds.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Myco-diesel fungus Gliocladium roseum
Hi Keith ; Of course the other (far easier) option if you are lucky enough to live in a temperate climate is copaifera langsdorfii (diesel tree) from Brazil. The sap from the tree can be burned in a diesel engine without processing (except for basic filtering of dirt/particles). Each tree can produce up to 40 liters per year and produce for up to 70 years. I have some growing now of course... Will update you in 10 years http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/the_diesel_tree_grow_your_own_oil.php BR Peter G. Thailand --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Myco-diesel fungus Gliocladium roseum To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 8:55 PM Hi Chris nothing i've seen on this specifies which country, but someone told me a report on the radio indicated chile. Thankyou. some earlier work by strobel has resulted in patents being held by montana state university. i don't know that the work being done in this instance is specific enough to warrant patent certification, but if it is, you can bet it'll be msu that gets it. but it looks more likely they're going to get all the science worked out, for the benefit of whoever is quick- and well capitalized-enough to eevelop a process which makes use of that knowledge. By all rights it should belong to the indigenous people, who're quite likely aware of its existence, or they use it in some way. By all rights, that is, except for TRIPs, the WTO Agreement on Trade Related Intellectual Property Rights, aka the Monsanto Agreement, which is a wrong not a right - not so much patenting as the enabling of theft, biopiracy. Three industry lobbying groups drafted the blueprint for the TRIPs agreement, led by the Intellectual Property Committee, a coalition of 13 giant US transnational corporations, including DuPont, Monsanto and Pfizer, which worked with the Union of Industrial and Employees Confederations of Europe (UNICE), which represents European business and industry, and the Keidanren, the Japan Federation of Economic Organizations, the Big Business Club, one of the most powerful organisations in Japan. The three groups worked directly with government negotiators to mould the agreement. Corporate Europe Observer commented: Together these organizations produced a document titled Basic Framework for GATT Provisions on Intellectual Property, submitted to the GATT secretariat in 1988. Following submission of the document, came a massive lobbying campaign both nationally and in Geneva. This document formed the basis of the TRIPs agreement... The proposition had striking similarities with the final agreement text. Thus, the TRIPs agreement is not merely a result of negotiations between the GATT member countries, but put together by the corporations themselves. See WTO Millennium Bug: TNC Control Over Global Trade Politics, Corporate Europe Observer - Issue 4, July 1999 http://www.corporateeurope.org/observer4/ What's wrong with the WTO? WTO processes favor big business and rich countries, by Peter Costantini, November 2001 http://www.speakeasy.org/~peterc/wtow/wto-biz.htm James Enyart, director of international affairs for Monsanto and a founding member of the Intellectual Property Committee, explained how the TRIPs agreement was drafted: Once created, the first task of the IPC was to repeat the missionary work we did in the US in the early days, this time with the industrial associations of Europe and Japan to convince them that a code was possible. We consulted many interest groups during the whole process. It was not an easy task but our Trilateral Group was able to distill from the laws of the more advanced countries the fundamental principles for protecting all forms of intellectual property. Besides selling our concepts at home, we went to Geneva where [we] presented [our] document to the staff of the GATT Secretariat. We also took the opportunity to present it to the Geneva based representatives of a large number of countries. What I have described to you is absolutely unprecedented in GATT. Industry has identified a major problem for international trade. It crafted a solution, reduced it to a concrete proposal and sold it to our own and other governments. The industries and traders of world commerce have played simultaneously the role of patients, the diagnosticians and the prescribing physicians. See A GATT Intellectual Property Code, James R Enyart, Les Nouvelles: Journal of the Licensing Executives Society, 1990, Vol 25 No 2 p 53-56 The Monsanto Amendment: The Real Reasons for the Second Amendment of the Indian Patent Act, by Dr. Vandana Shiva, Synthesis/Regeneration 30, Winter 2003 http://www.greens.org/s-r/30/30-19.html Edmund
Re: [Biofuel] Seized: the 2008 land grab for food and financial security
Hi Keith ; Thanks for this post, it is directly applicable. About 2 months ago the provincial government guys approached us to buy our Cambodia land. Now I know why. They only wanted big areas, not small. This explains the huge runup in the price of land here, almost doubling every year for the last 3-4 years. To tell you the truth, I would be much happier if the price stayed low. When the price is low we can live in peace, when the price goes high is when every kind of trouble starts : boundary poles mysteriously moving around, duplicate land documents suddenly appear showing someone else (probably a government official) as the owner (good luck in court), houses being built inside the property line, etc. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Climate ready GM crops: The patent race
Hi Keith ; Great detective work thanks. Outlawing patents on living organisms need not be difficult or painful for corporations. Let's say the Patent Office says that 3 years from now, the law will be effective. What would happen? Well, you could expect a rush of patent applications for life forms as the 3 year deadline comes to a close, as corporations try to get their patents approved before the window of opportunity closes. After that, no more patent applications. And since patents expire in 17 or 20 years anyway, all the previous patents which were granted would expire eventually. Problem solved. The only obstacle is our resolve to compel CONgress to act. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand .org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Climate ready GM crops: The patent race
Hi Keith ; Fascinating article on this subject. But it is dated 1999, any idea of any progress that has been made? http://www.organicconsumers.org/Patent/rifikinhc.cfm US Human/Chimpanzee Life Form Patent Challenge by Jeremy Rifkin Stuart Newman Will Now Go to the Federal Courts U.S. Ruling Aids Opponent Of Patents for Life Forms By Rick Weiss Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, June 17, 1999; Page A2 The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has turned down a scientist's controversial request for a patent on creatures that would be part animal and part human--bizarre life forms that no one has made before, but that might prove useful in medical experiments. But unlike most patent office rejectees, the scientist, Stuart Newman, is celebrating. The New York Medical College biology professor never intended to make the animal-human hybrids. He applied for the patent to gain the legal standing to challenge U.S. patent policy, which allows patents on living entities. The patent office ruled in part that Newman's invention is too human to be patentable. By doing so, it opened the door to a series of legal challenges available to all patent applicants--a path that could lead to the Supreme Court. Newman hopes his appeals will force a judicial and congressional reassessment of the nation's 19-year-old policy of granting patents on life forms. That policy, based on a single court decision, has provided the foundation for today's $13 billion biotechnology industry. Some patent experts this week criticized Newman for abusing the federal patent review system to bypass the legal avenues by which patent law is normally made and changed. But even some critics confirmed that the strategy appeared to be working. In particular, said John Barton, a patent specialist at the Stanford University School of Law, the ploy has forced the patent office to acknowledge the relatively thin legal ice upon which its policies on life patents rest. The ruling also reveals the agency's apparent uncertainty about just how human a creature must be before it is no longer patentable, Barton and others said. The patent office has argued that to grant patents on people would violate the 13th Amendment to the Constitution, which abolished slavery. But neither the patent office nor Congress has ever defined human. That question is of more than philosophical import today. Already, several patents have been allowed on animals containing human genes or organs. And just this week, scientists in Massachusetts said they were creating live embryos by combining cow and human cells. When we applied for this patent a year and half ago, people reacted to it as if it was some kind of science fiction scenario, Newman said. Developments in the past year have shown that similar things are already on the table and being considered seriously. In its rejection letter, the patent office says Newman's invention embraces a human being, but it does not say why other creatures with human components do not embrace a human being, said Washington patent attorney Patrick Coyne, who filed Newman's application. This puts a big question mark on all commercial interests involving human embryos and embryonic . . . cells, said biotechnology activist Jeremy Rifkin, a co-applicant on Newman's claim, who has rallied religious leaders against patents on life forms. The agency concedes in its letter that in the Supreme Court's single foray into the topic--a 5 to 4 decision in 1980 allowing a patent on a microbe--the justices did not include humans on their list of nonpatentable life forms. But Stephen Kunin, the patent office's deputy assistant commissioner for patent policy, said the agency believes that Congress did not intend to allow patents on humans or on creatures that are essentially human when it passed the National Patent Act in 1956. The agency, however, offers no basis for that belief, Coyne said. Biotechnology executives have said that without access to patents on gene-altered animals and other living entities, they would not make the investments needed to develop new drugs and other products. Yesterday, some criticized Newman's legal attack. The net outcome of this attempt may hurt valuable medical research and ultimately deny therapies for patients who need them, said Carl Feldbaum, president of the Biotechnology Industry Organization. Undaunted, Newman yesterday filed an appeal to the patent office. Private ownership of inventions is not the only way progress has been made in the history of science and the history of medicine, Newman said. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Climate ready GM crops: The patent race
Hi Keith ; These are ominous developments, but far worse should be expected eventually. As we discussed before, the answer here is to treat life forms like perpetual motion machines. In other words, you cannot get a patent on any kind of perpetual motion machine. Similarly, you should not be able to get a patent for any life form. BR Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Paraguayans 'ill through GM crop pesticide' - 24 Aug 2008 *#
Hi All ; One of the genetic modifications made on crop plants is to make them roundup ready. Such plants are resistant to the herbicide so it can then be sprayed on them multiple times throughout the growing season .. double and triple dosing all those living in the vicinity or working in the fields, as well. Yes thanks for your post, and I know you are not supporting RoundUp. You know, scientists recently were shocked to find abundant life at 5,000 meters in the crushing depths of the ocean near volcanic vents spewing corrosive streams of superheated water. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent If life can adapt and flourish in these harsh conditions, why would anyone think that it would take a mere heartbeat for nature to form super life forms resistant to RoundUp or any other puny chemical we can dream up? Yes the weeds are sick but we are even more sick. How foolish and blind we sometimes are. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Why the Planet is Sick
Hi All ; What a fascinating review, presented in a much more convincing way than I ever could. And sorry to say, I have come to the same conclusion after grappling with the question from every angle over several years. Here's an example. I can buy a can of tuna fish for 30 Thai baht, less than $1. Deep sea tuna are being fished to extinction and yet I can buy a can for under $1. The price should be $10 or higher to reduce demand, right? But the problem is, if I artificially set the price at $10, what is the first thing that will happen? Answer: a whole bunch of people will buy boats and go tuna fishing because it will be so profitable. Capitalism causes this problem, and capitalism cannot provide a solution. My view (after many years of somber contemplation) (and probably not shared by everyone) is that the average person, unfortunately, is not capable of making decisions that effect the whole society. This includes finite resource allocation and includes election of government leaders. Sorry, but I no longer beleive the average person is capable of self government. The fact that GWB got elected twice should be proof enough lol. After the American revolution when the society was young and God fearing, capitalism worked amazingly well. But American society is haemorrhaging, spiraling down, and therefore not stable. The posted articlce is right on the money (sorry Americans spreading democracy). Capitalisn doesn't work in the long run ( 500 years). Short run, emphatically YES it works. BR Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Why the Planet is Sick
Hi Keith ; Yes we are in agreement that corporations are not human and they are mostly responsible for many problems. And granted there is a renaissance with organic growing, and biofuels, and conservation, and also the awareness of the problems. But I think what I am saying is that I am taking this even further than that. Let's say we have a huge awakening of the population and we do whatever it is that will fix all these problems. My point is that this new nirvana state of being is not a stable state for the long term. The forces at work today will continue to work to undermine this new nirvana, and my feeling is that eventually they will succeed again (500 years or so). So these states will oscillate back and forth and it is not a stable state of being. The famous cliche If we learn anything from history, it is that we learn nothing from history is so true. The future generations of this nirvana state will forget the lessons we learned today about corporations and they will do it all over again. You cannot tell them now to not allow that to happen 500 years in the future. You can try but you cannot be successful. Previous generations have already told us not to do the things we are doing and yet we are doing it. Future generations will not listen to you. So our society is unstable and not in a stable state. How to fix this problem for the long term ( 5,000 years)?? In my opinion there is only 1 way that could work, and it clearly would not be possible by patching the current system (hint). Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Don't confuse people with the institutions and corporations, they're not human, they're not just composed of the people who work for them. The reviewer writes: As Cox will convince you if you do not already know, much of what is happening to our planet is due to human ignorance and greed, expressed through the agency of big corporations and with the connivance of governments. That's wrong, it's the other way round, if anything - big corporations and conniving governments are not human, and it's not ignorance and/or greed either, those are human qualities. Please see: http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous5.html#creed Actually Bernays was wrong: it's not the PR folks who do the manipulation who control the public mind and constitute the invisible government, it's the ones who pay them. He's also wrong in implying that it works - it does work, but for how long? It enables and empowers unfettered capitalism, which eventually and inevitably screws it all up: unless capitalism is somewhat fettered through having to operate within an awake and aware society, the rising tide of sheer hubris eventually becomes impossible to ignore, no matter how thoroughly spun people might be. The last three years or so have been a rude awakening for very many people. About time too. Cox is writing about something that's already happening, whether he's quite aware of that or not. Millions of people are building this stuff out of their systems and their lives and finding their way forward, and indeed opposing it. You don't see a lot about it in the mainstream media, especially not in the US, but then the average Joe doesn't get to tell the New York Times what to do either (though it's supposed to be working on his behalf, allegedly). The spirit of Seattle and Cancun is alive, says Vandana Shiva right at the beginning in The Collapse Of The WTO Doha Negotiations And The Future Of Food And Farmers. http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/commentaries/3580 August, 09 2008 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Charles in GM 'disaster' warning
Hi John ; Reading your post it is clear to me that you missed the point I was trying to make. You are talking about good and bad traits crossing over accidently and inevitably in the field, possibly causing some sickness, economic damage, and even maybe a few deaths as a result. I am NOT talking about that at all. Sure those things will happen, and they are hot topics on every forum where GMO's are discussed. But these things miss the point completely. My point is that you should FORGET about those accidental cross-overs that make a few people sick of even cause deaths. Forget about them, they are the very minor problem. I am talking about groups who INTENTIONALLY cross-over and create life forms that are destructive and create havoc and death around the world. There are two groups that I can think of who would do this. One are militant extremists (our own governments included), the other groups are more like mischievous troublemakers. We don't think there are any of those?? Think again. How many trolls are there are the net, their intention just to create controversy and conflict. How many computer viruses are there? Thousands. Who writes a computer virus and for what purpose?? One needs to be a little sick in the head to write a destructive virus, and just because we cannot visualize ourselves doing it, that does not mean that there are not thousands of lunatics out there who would do it if given the chance. So forget about the accidental crosses on tested GMO's from established corporations. Heated debate on that subject is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It is irrelevant. Sure, some crosses and accidents are bound to occur, a few people will get sick or die, this is not the real danger. My prediction is that at some time in the future, a GMO will result in hundreds of millions of people dead, either due to desease or starvation. It will happen in a completely unexpected way, like the current CCD problem with bees. This is the real danger of GMO's. GMO products should not be supported NOT because they may make a few people sick, which they will, or because they may cross, which they will, or are unsafe, which they are. GMO products should not be supported because support for them will accellerate the spread of GMO techniques to groups that want to hurt humanity. The damage these groups can do with GMO techniques is unimaginable. BR Peter G. Thailand --- On Wed, 8/13/08, John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Charles in GM 'disaster' warning To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 5:39 PM Good or bad, GM genes will cross over. It took good old mother nature eons to evolve the current gene pool. We cannot possibly know the long term effects. And we cannot know the long term effects of our consumption of modified food. We evolved along with these foods, and not it's not the same food. I'd be worried. John Guag Meister wrote: Hi All ; These danger are very real and the warnings are well taken, but please understand that they are the result of the good intentions of the good GM companies. My question always is (sorry for sounding like a broken record, errr I mean CD) : if these are the results of good intentions from good corporations trying to help us, how much worse will the results from bad intentions from bad corporations or groups? ie. someone or group who are deliberately trying to create havoc and destruction, and there are many, for whatever reason? BR Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Charles in GM 'disaster' warning
Hi All ; These danger are very real and the warnings are well taken, but please understand that they are the result of the good intentions of the good GM companies. My question always is (sorry for sounding like a broken record, errr I mean CD) : if these are the results of good intentions from good corporations trying to help us, how much worse will the results from bad intentions from bad corporations or groups? ie. someone or group who are deliberately trying to create havoc and destruction, and there are many, for whatever reason? BR Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Local Supplies of Important Nutrients.
Hi All ; Plants are like amazing mini chemical factories. A critical part of the switch to renewable energy is the reduction in energy demand. As this will reduces availability of long distance meals, we need to be aware of plants which are potential sources of local supplies of important nutrients necessary for good health. The plant which I describe below has 70X more lycopene than tomatoes and 10X more beta-carotene than carrots. Everyone should be aware of the potential of this plant, even if you cannot grow it due to your climate zone. I was in Ho Chi Minh City Vietnam about 6 months ago at the local market, and like I always do, I scanned around for interesting or unique plants and seeds. I saw this weird orange ball with spikes on it, like nothing I ever saw before. The lady said it was for medicine. So, as usual, I bought one and brought it home, without really knowing what it was. After researching it on the net, I was amazed at what I had found. Anyway I would like to spread the word about this fascinating plant, so I put up a simple website. So far I am not making any money from this website (loosing a lot of money is more like it). My friend in Vietnam will send these seeds to anyone, and Vietnam does not accept PayPal yet. Well, umm, technically you can SEND money from Vietnam using PayPal, but you cannot RECEIVE money using PayPay in Vietnam. No one seems to see anything wrong with this. I paid the website registration fee, and I receive the funds using my PayPal, and take the time and pay the extra money to Western Union it over to my friend in Vietnam (10% each time). So I just loose money every time. Oh well. I am trying to get these seeds out to as many people as possible. If at some point I can make a little money, thats fine too. And of course, I have hundreds of vines growing on my farm. Anyway, check out this absolutely fascinating plant : www.gac-seeds.com - my website. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gac - Wikipedia page on Gac. http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=153965 - USDA webpage on Gac. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Use for glycerine - hectographic duplicator
http://www.justpeace.org/hecto.htm Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Soy is making kids 'gay'
Hi All ; Yes there is a strong possiblity of truth here. I saw some previous comments about countries using soy for a hundred years, but this misses the point. What we are talking about is feeding a newborn baby with large doses of soy, which certainly is a significantly change, and has not been done for a hundred years. For me, the issue here is much larger than soy, and it goes back to the moment of conception (or even further). You must realize that a fertilized egg is one cell that eventually grows to become a person with a brain, bones, eyes, internal organs, etc. Think about it, quite amazing actually how one cell can become so many different types of cells. Then consider what it is that controls this fantastically complex grand symphony. It is a combination of DNA and hormones and minute amounts of chemical substances which control it. Now let's take a look at all the highly chemically reactive chemicals we expose ourselves to on a daily basis : flourine in toothpaste, drinking water and non-stick pans, mercury in fillings and vaccines, MSG in foods, cigarette and diesel smoke, antibiotics, herbicides and pesticides in food, etc, etc, etc. Does anyone think that it is impossible for one or more of these highly chemically reactive agents to affect in subtle ways the delicate balance of a growing fetus or child?? I wouldn't bet on it. We already know that cigarette smoking by pregnant women causes problems for the fetus (low birth weight for one). In future years I believe we will learn many more lessons about what affects a fetus or growing child. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Cellulostic Ethanol Plant coming online next month...
In todays Bangkok Post : http://www.bangkokpost.com/200608_Business/20Jun2008_biz30.php First bagasse ethanol plant ready to open YUTHANA PRAIWAN Thai Roong Ruang Group, a sugar miller and exporter, will begin to operate the country's first cellulose-derived ethanol plant in Saraburi next month, according to managing director Ugrit Asadatorn. The company's wholly owned subsidiary, Thai Roong Ruang Energy, has a licence to produce 400,000 litres of ethanol a year. Some will be made from bagasse, a byproduct from molasses. Cellulose or bagasse-based ethanol is made of wood chips, corn stover (leaves and stalks) and rice straw. The company will build the prototype bagasse-based ethanol production facility as part of its one-billion-baht plant. The construction of Thailand's first bagasse-based ethanol plant began in mid-2007. Of the total cost of one billion baht, 600 million baht was provided by the Japanese government's New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organisation,. The balance was financed by Thai Roong Ruang Group. Thanks to the Japanese technology, the facility can produce ethanol from both types of materials. To produce 10,000 litres of ethanol a day, the bagasse-based production unit will require 130 tonnes of raw materials, while its molasses-based production line will require 400 tonnes of raw materials to make 110,000 litres. The group expects ethanol from bagasse to be more competitive since global biofuel manufacturers are currently making rapid progress in the development of the cellulose-ethanol technology. Dr Ugrid said Thai Roong Ruang Energy was also building a power plant to be powered by biogas derived from the waste water from its sugar and ethanol complex to achieve greater cost savings. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Lots of BD process equipment for sale in UK.
Hi Keith and All ; Lots of really nice stainless equipment for you BDers in UK. Good luck bidding! http://www.goindustry.com/en/auctions/pharmaceutical-toiletries-and-cosmetic-equipment-equipment-list.asp?SaleID=8192Track=Auction (The link may wrap, maybe you need to cut and paste the whole thing to your address bar). Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Hi Hakan ; but the number of human corps laying around and later also excavated, Well, no one is denying that war is a terrible thing, and that there were many corpses lying around, but possibly they were caused by starvation and disease due to relentless Allied bombings of supply routes for food? How does eye witness accounts of many corpses lying around during a time of war translate into a coordinated plot for extinction? be upset about what you are saying and consider you as a dangerous person. Sorry to hear that. If you consider me to be a dangerous person, then I am afraid to think of what you consider Fred Leuchter. He is the one who testified as an expert witness, not me. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Hi Keith and all List Members I like the part about Fred Dr. Death Leuchter, the designer of the US Prison system's execution apparatus, as an expert defense witness who tested purported execution gas chambers ON-SITE in Auschwitz, Poland tesitified in a court of law under oath and determined they had never been used to kill anyone. The other question I have is this. The war machine runs on fuel. During a time of war for Germany, fuel would be incredibly important. So why would the Germans waste precious fuel to transport all the prisioners to the camps if they intended to kill them? Wouldn't a sharp bayonette be much cheaper? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand 20th Anniversary of the Great Holocaust Trial by Michael A. Hoffman II Copyright 2005 by revisionisthistory.org January 7, 2005 marks the 20th anniversary of what came to be known throughout the world as The Great Holocaust Trial thanks chiefly to the drive, determination, courage and vision of one man, Ernst Zundel, supported by those he inspired. In 1985 Zundel was a German immigrant residing in Toronto, Canada where he had built a highly successful advertising and graphic arts business based in a rambling Victorian mansion in the bohemian Cabbagetown section of metropolitan Toronto. Zundel viewed the Six million story as a form of mental genocide against the German people; ostensibly a noble tale of the epoch struggle for human rights that in actuality was a form of devious hate propaganda, leveling every conceivable blood libel at the Germans and branding them with the Mark of Cain. Having survived the Allied firebombing of his native city of Pforzheim as a child, Zundel was well familiar with the war crimes of the hypocritical Allies and he made it his life's work to clear the name of his own people. For this commendable enterprise, Zundel had his mailing privileges revoked by the Canadian government in 1983, forcing him to open a post office box in Buffalo, New York and send a messenger to commute hundreds of miles just to receive mail. In 1985 he was charged under an archaic False News provision of an old Edwardian municipal code, for having published the pamphlet Did Six Million Really Die? He faced two years in prison if convicted. In reponse Zundel put the so-called Holocaust itself on trial, hiring a little-known maverick lawyer from British Columbia, Douglas Christie, to argue his case before Judge Hugh Locke. Seated next to Christie was the learned revisionist historian Prof. Robert Faurisson of France, who guided Christie's withering cross-examination of a long train of saintly 'Holocaust' survivors offered by the Crown. Zundel's defense was initially regarded by the press and public as preposterous. How can anyone deny the 'Holocaust? was the incredulous response to the news that Zundel would vigorously defend himself and the free speech rights of all Canadians. The trial was expected to be a quick and ignominious rout of Zundel and his motley crew. How wrong the odds-makers were! For the first time in history the holy survivors finally had to submit their testimony to scrutiny, to the rules of evidence and cross-examination, something that has never happened before or since. Seated in the press gallery, I watched as my colleagues of the fourth estate grew ever more surprised and shocked at the amazing admissions Christie and Faurisson elicited from the eyewitnesses to the gas chambers. TV reporters like Claud Adams and journalists from the Toronto Star and Globe and Mail produced footage and headlines that turned Canada upside down. Canadian readers and viewers learned that there was no scientific evidence for homicidal gas chambers, that homicidal gassings (as opposed to the German use of Zyklon B as a life-saving prophylactic against the deadly typhus louse), were a rumor that the inmates heard but never actually witnessed for themselves--these were statements obtained by Mr. Christie from the prosecution's own vaunted Auschwitz eyewitnesses! In March of 1985 Zundel was convicted by a cowardly jury that had followed the prejudicial advisories of a bent judge; but the conviction was reversed on appeal and Zundel went to trial again in 1988, eventually winning a Supreme Court decision for free speech in Canada. The 1988 trial is more well known in revisionist circles. Zundel was famous by then and the appearance of Fred Dr. Death Leuchter, the designer of the US Prison system's execution apparatus, as an expert defense witness who tested purported execution gas chambers on-site in Auschwitz, Poland and determined they had never been used to kill anyone, created an international sensation. Still, for this reporter, the 1985 trial has the greatest significance. Having been badly burned the first time around (Dr. Raul Hilberg, the preeminent historian of the Six Million admitted on the witness stand in the first trial that there was no scientific evidence for gassings--I'm at a loss he said when asked to
Re: [Biofuel] 'What the World Eats'!
Hi Keith ; What a great reference! For me the profound conclusion is that the food additives affect the unborn in ways that cannot be undone until the next generation. In other words, the people with bad/crooked teeth CANNOT ever get perfect teeth by changing their diets. They can only change their diets and then their children have the possibility. Their window of opportunity has passed long ago. I have been saying for ages now that the obesity epidemic is not only from diet but there must also be a fetal component. This reference seems to support that in a compelling way. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand TV dinner still cooling? Check out Tonight's Picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Biofuel Industry Turns Violent and Bloody in Colombia
Hi Kirk ; http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/Biofuel/index.html Yes this is quite unfortunate. In third world counties money makes the laws. In the Cambodian town of Poipet, trouble started when the casinos moved in. The nearby land became much more valuable and all kinds of trouble with forged land documents and intimidation developed. They have a saying When the land is cheap the people live in peace. When the land is expensive the people live in fear. I guess no different than the 13 colonies and the native American Indians (although they did buy Manhattan island). Any solutions you can think of?? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Meth test (was Off topic)
Thanks Jan this is making a lot more sense now. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Peter. You forgot the first signs of the formula. It should be: 1 - m1/m2 = m3 In your case: 1 - 25/225 = 0,. There is also a definition error in the formula. m1 = the amount of undissolved material m2 = the amount of biodiesel put into the reaction m3= The amount of biodiesel that is dissolved in methanol in mass% Sorry about that. The proportions between methanol and biodiesel is carefully balanced in order to make the test reproducable. Best regards Jan Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Meth test (was Off topic)
Hi Keith and Jan ; I read this with interest but I am quite confused. Please can we start by exlaining the underlying basis for this test?? Is it that unreacted oil will not dissolve in methanol? Are we trying to dissolve the FAME in methanol and measure the remaining?? If we are, then why is it so important to measure exactly 225g methanol. Why wouldn't 250g be OK for example?? I can understand exactly 25g of biodiesel is necessary, but why exactly 225g methanol? Perhaps I missed this in a previous post. Then when I try an example with your formula I again get confused. Let's say we have perfect biodiesel. So this means all of if will dissolve in the methanol, right? By your formula : m3=m1/m2 m3=25g/225g m3= 0.1 So 0.111 is how much of the FAME is methyl esters for perfect FAME? What does this mean?? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Jan Sorry for the late reply. Just to add my vote of thanks - the methanol test is simple and useful, it's helped a lot of people. I'd like to add this development to the quality testing section at Journey to Forever, would you agree? All best Keith Dear all. I am very flattered that my methanol method had so much attention. Here is a development of the method: Equipment needed for the analysis 1. One 250 ml separatory funnel 2. One 400 ml beaker (Figure 2) 3. One magnetic stirrer 4. Balancer with 0,05g acc. 5. One 50 ml narrowed neck E-flask Chemicals for the analysis 1. Water free methanol, min 225 g 2. FAME with water content less than 500 ppm, clear, bright and without visible impurities, min 25 g Take the clean beaker and put exactly 225 g of methanol in it. Then add exactly 25g of the biodiesel. Stir the fluids on the stirrer for 2 minutes. Take the beaker off the stirrer ans pour the content into the separation funnel.Take the clean e-flask to the balancer and tarate with the flask. Let any oil phase separate out from the biodiesel/methanol phase and put it in the e-flask. Weigh the content and calculate the result: 1 - m1/m2 = m3 where m1 is the mass of the biodiesel m2 is the amount of methanol m3 is how much of the biodiesel put in that is consisting from methyl esters. The method will show huch much of the material by mass that is soluble in methanol. This includes mostl mono- and diglycerides. The residue consists therefore mostly from unreacted oil. With best Jan Warnqvist ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545433 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Torture Is Finally on Trial
Hi Keith ; This is scary stuff. And how long do the feds think it will take the other guys to figure these techniques out and start using them on us?? Best Regards, Peter G. --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.alternet.org/rights/48489/ Torture Is Finally on Trial By Naomi Klein, The Guardian. Posted February 26, 2007. America has deliberately driven hundreds, perhaps thousands, of prisoners insane. Now it is being held to account in a Miami court. Something remarkable is going on in a Miami courtroom. The cruel methods US interrogators have used since September 11 to break prisoners are finally being put on trial. This was not supposed to happen. The Bush administration's plan was to put José Padilla on trial for allegedly being part of a network linked to international terrorists. But Padilla's lawyers are arguing that he is not fit to stand trial because he has been driven insane by the government. Arrested in May 2002 at Chicago's O'Hare airport, Padilla, a Brooklyn-born former gang member, was classified as an enemy combatant and taken to a navy prison in Charleston, South Carolina. He was kept in a cell 9ft by 7ft, with no natural light, no clock and no calendar. Whenever Padilla left the cell, he was shackled and suited in heavy goggles and headphones. Padilla was kept under these conditions for 1,307 days. He was forbidden contact with anyone but his interrogators, who punctured the extreme sensory deprivation with sensory overload, blasting him with harsh lights and pounding sounds. Padilla also says he was injected with a truth serum, a substance his lawyers believe was LSD or PCP. According to his lawyers and two mental health specialists who examined him, Padilla has been so shattered that he lacks the ability to assist in his own defence. He is convinced that his lawyers are part of a continuing interrogation program and sees his captors as protectors. In order to prove that the extended torture visited upon Mr Padilla has left him damaged, his lawyers want to tell the court what happened during those years in the navy brig. The prosecution strenuously objects, maintaining that Padilla is competent and that his treatment is irrelevant. The US district judge Marcia Cooke disagrees. It's not like Mr Padilla was living in a box. He was at a place. Things happened to him at that place. The judge has ordered several prison employees to testify on Padilla's mental state at the hearings, which began yesterday. They will be asked how a man who is alleged to have engaged in elaborate anti-government plots now acts, in the words of brig staff, like a piece of furniture. It's difficult to overstate the significance of these hearings. The techniques used to break Padilla have been standard operating procedure at Guantánamo Bay since the first prisoners arrived five years ago. They wore blackout goggles and sound-blocking headphones and were placed in extended isolation, interrupted by strobe lights and heavy metal music. These same practices have been documented in dozens of cases of extraordinary rendition carried out by the CIA, as well as in prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many have suffered the same symptoms as Padilla. According to James Yee, a former army Muslim chaplain at Guantánamo, there is an entire section of the prison called Delta Block for detainees who have been reduced to a delusional state. They would respond to me in a childlike voice, talking complete nonsense. Many of them would loudly sing childish songs, repeating the song over and over. All the inmates of Delta Block were on 24-hour suicide watch. Human Rights Watch has exposed a US-run detention facility near Kabul known as the prison of darkness -- tiny pitch-black cells, strange blaring sounds. Plenty lost their minds, one former inmate recalled. I could hear people knocking their heads against the walls and the doors. These standard mind-breaking techniques have never faced scrutiny in an American court because the prisoners in the jails are foreigners and have been stripped of the right of habeas corpus -- a denial that, scandalously, was just upheld by a federal appeals court in Washington DC. There is only one reason Padilla's case is different -- he is a US citizen. The administration did not originally intend to bring Padilla to trial, but when his status as an enemy combatant faced a supreme court challenge, the administration abruptly changed course, charging Padilla and transferring him to civilian custody. That makes Padilla's case unique -- he is the only victim of the post-9/11 legal netherworld to face an ordinary US trial. Now that Padilla's mental state is the central issue in the case, the government prosecutors are presented with a problem. The CIA and the military
Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
Hi John ; At the time of the last ice age when the sun eventually fails to put out enough energy to subtain life the only life left on earth will be single cell organism living in vents underneath frozen oceans. Yes got your point, but I would just say that before the last ice age, when the hydrogen fuel that powers the sun begins to run out, the sun will expand and become a red giant. When that happens the oceans will boil away and the earth will be engulfed in flames. So we better have figured out what to do before then (about 4 billion years from now)! BR Peter G. Thailand Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Can these people be trusted with our planet?
Hi Robert and All ; No. Christians are people who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Either Jesus was who he claimed to be, or he was a raving lunatic. You can't just say: He was a nice guy and a wise teacher while ignoring his other claims about himself. For me this is a digital question : either He was who He said He was, or He wasn't. Digital. Yes or no answer. Simple. So if we examine this case by case, if He wasn't then we don't really need to discuss it, right? Then skip the next paragraph. For the case where He was who He said He was, may I also point out that He could have stopped the crucifixion any time He wanted. But He suffered terrible wrong, right to the end, and didn't complain. Now hanging there with nails in your hands and feet HAS GOT to hurt. In other words, a lot of people were crucified but they did not have a choice to stop it. If they did they certainly would have. If He was who He said He was then He had the choice to stop it, but He didn't. I know I could not have done this, and you probably could not either. Why would He do this? There is a perfectly logical reason, but you won't find it written anywhere. Does anyone know what it is? BR Peter G. Thailand (PS. Sure sounds a lot different from the Christians who bomb innocent people in other countries for no reason). Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Life created in a laboratory - was Can these people be trusted with our planet?
Hi Robert ; Quite clear to me also that whoever made this universe we live in knows a lot more than we do. So for the scientists who are trying to figure it all out, I offer a list of tasks : 1) Create all life which is interdependant on all other life. In other words, you cannot just create an amoeba (amazing in itself) in a test tube, you must also create the life that feeds the amoeba and the life that feeds on the amoeba, and it must be created all at the same time. The spider needs the fly, and the fly need 50 other life forms, etc, a million time over. 2) For all that life you must create male and female and then inborn knowledge and instinct. The spider knows how to spin a web without someone teaching it. The animals know how to mate and take care of young without anyone teaching them. 3) Then you must create the worlds and the stars and all of this life from an infinitely hot, infinitiely dense soup of elemetary particles. Not trying to raise the bar too high. BR Peter G. Thailand Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Inline Refractometer?
Hi Will ; You are looking to build a tubidity meter, not refractomoter (refractive index meter). Turbidy measure cloudiness or particulate matter, refractive index tells you about dissolved matter (like sugar for example). Omega Instruments has tons of measurement stuff and they have some inline turbidity meters. Expensive due to special application stuff, but you could read it and get some ideas. BR Peter G. Thailand Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail QA for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396546091 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] This one's for you Keith.
Hi Keith ; Hi tech auction in Japan. http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?AuctionID=10884 BR Peter G. Thailand PS. Still tryin gto find muskovie ducks in Cambodia. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Herbicide-resistant weed worries farmers - and another one...
Hi Luke ; Agreed on all points. It's not a Superweed, it's a Super Weed ;-))). I also don't smoke. BR Peter G. Thailand --- Luke Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ya'll will have to forgive my adolescent joy in saying this, but THAT'S AWESOME! Hemp yields far more usable fibre than cotton does...folks should get with the times...of course, hemp and pot are a little different...but hell...I'm all for legalizing ALL drugs, not just the ones that the pharmacutical industry can lobby into legality :) (And no, I don't smoke pot...) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Herbicide-resistant weed worries farmers
Hi Keith ; So we just can't farm without Monsanto, right. Sensible question. Unfortunately the article does not propose reducing the use of herbicides but only increasing their use. Don't they understand that it is only a matter of time before another weed becomes resistant to the new cocktail and even worse than the first? Where does it end? The logical conclusion is the creation of wide variety of superweeds which will create havoc for all farmers. Don't they see this coming??? Apparently not. How is your patch of forest getting along, Peter? Lots of things are doing really well, thanks. But it is a big project for me. I'm pretty tired. Anyone interested in my energy farm project can see progress pics at : www.cresard.com/pr01 The plan for this year is (budget permitting) : 1) Biogas from pig s**t. 2) Set up the ethanol still. 3) Get the wind turbine working. 4) 10K more teak seeds arriving Friday. 5) More of pigs, cattle, chickens, rabbits. 6) Plant about 10K oil palms this rainy season. 7) Dry season farming. 8) Breadfruit (for ethanol) and diesel tree (for diesel). Best And Best to you Keith. Peter G. Thailand (and Cambodia) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Herbicide-resistant weed worries farmers
Hi Frank ; --- Frank Navarrete [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is the berry and seed the source of palm oil? Do you just crush them to extract the oil? I guess all palm fruits and seeds contain some oil. Oil palm is the preferred palm because it produces lots of fruit bunches and the oil percentage is quite high (25%). Oil palm fruit is cooked for a short time to soften it, then pressed, the oil floats to the top of the liquid. The seed also contains oil but is difficult to crack and extract. Larger mills will do this, smaller ones will not. Do a test with your fruits and see how much oil you get. Lots of resources on the net. You might try to identify the palm, and the information you seek may be on the net somewhere. BR Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Herbicide-resistant weed worries farmers - and another one...
Hi All ; Another SuperWeed from Yahoo homepage today. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061221/ap_on_sc/mexico_drugs Hybrid marijuana plant found in Mexico By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer Wed Dec 20, 8:29 PM ET LAZARO CARDENAS, Mexico - Soldiers trying to seize control of one Mexico's top drug-producing regions found the countryside teeming with a new hybrid marijuana plant that can be cultivated year-round and cannot be killed with herbicides. PUBLICIDAD Soldiers fanned out across some of the new fields Tuesday, pulling up plants by the root and burning them, as helicopter gunships clattered overhead to give them cover from a raging drug war in the western state of Michoacan. The plants' roots survive if they are doused with herbicide, said army Gen. Manuel Garcia. These plants have been genetically improved, he told a handful of journalists allowed to accompany soldiers on a daylong raid of some 70 marijuana fields. Before we could cut the plant and destroy it, but this plant will come back to life unless it's taken out by the roots. The new plants, known as Colombians, mature in about two months and can be planted at any time of year, meaning authorities will no longer be able to time raids to coincide with twice-yearly harvests. The hybrid first appeared in Mexico two years ago but has become the plant of choice for drug traffickers Michoacan, a remote mountainous region that lends to itself to drug production. Yields are so high that traffickers can now produce as much marijuana on a plot the size of a football field as they used to harvest in 10 to 12 acres. That makes for smaller, harder-to-detect fields, though some discovered Tuesday had sophisticated irrigation systems with sprinklers, pumps and thousands of yards of tubing. For each 100 (marijuana plots) that you spot from the air, there are 300 to 500 more that you discover once you get on the ground, Garcia said. The raids were part of President Felipe Calderon's new offensive to restore order in his home state of Michoacan and fight drug violence that has claimed more than 2,000 lives in Mexico this year. In Michoacan, officials say the Valencia and Gulf cartels have been battling over lucrative marijuana plantations and smuggling routes for cocaine and methamphetamine to the United States. In one incident, gunmen stormed into a bar and dumped five human heads on the dance floor. The president, who took office Dec. 1, sent 7,000 soldiers and federal officers to Michoacan last week. Officials have arrested 45 people, including several suspected leaders of the feuding cartels. They also seized three yachts, 2.2 pounds of gold, bulletproof vests, military equipment and shirts with federal and municipal police logos. More than 18,000 people have been searched, along with 8,000 vehicles and numerous foreign and national boats. We are determined to shut down delinquency and stop crime in Mexico because it is endangering the lives of all Mexicans, of our families, Calderon said, calling the operation a success so far. In the past week, soldiers and federal police have found 1,795 marijuana fields covering 585 acres in Michoacan, security officials said. Officials estimate the raids could cost the cartels up to $626 million, counting the value of plants that have been destroyed and drugs that could have been produced with seized opium poppies and marijuana seeds. On Sunday, federal authorities announced the capture of suspected drug lord Elias Valencia, the most significant arrest since the operation began. Calderon's predecessor,Vicente Fox, started out with enthusiastic U.S. applause for his own fight against drug trafficking. U.S. officials called the arrest of drug bosses early in his six-year term unprecedented, while Fox boasted that his administration had destroyed 43,900 acres of marijuana and poppy plantations in its first six months and more than tripled drug seizures. Yet drug violence has spiked across the country in recent years, with gangs fighting over control of routes following the arrest of drug lords, authorities say. Mexico has also continued to struggle with corruption among its law enforcement ranks. Garcia said authorities did not tell soldiers where they were being sent on raids and banned the use of cell phones and radios. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Herbicide-resistant weed worries farmers
Hi All ; From Yahoo today : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061218/ap_on_sc/monster_weed By ELLIOTT MINOR, Associated Press Writer Mon Dec 18, 4:20 PM ET TIFTON, Ga. - The cotton industry is concerned about the discovery of a herbicide-resistant weed that spreads easily, can grow an inch a day even during droughts and could force farmers to return to older growing methods that were harsher on the environment. ADVERTISEMENT It is potentially the worse threat since the boll weevil, said Alan York, weed scientist at North Carolina State University in Raleigh, referring to the voracious beetle that devastated Southern cotton crops in the early 1900s and forced farmers to switch to alternatives such as peanuts. The boll weevil was eradicated in some states in the late 1970s and early 1980s, paving the way for the return of cotton as one of the nation's major crops, worth $4.7 billion. It is grown in 16 states from coast to coast. The weed that is causing concern is Palmer amaranth, a type of pig weed that grows 6 to 10 feet tall. Amaranth that resists the most common herbicide used in cotton, glyphostate, has been confirmed in 10 of North Carolina's 100 counties, four of Georgia's 159 counties and is suspected in Tennessee, South Carolina and Arkansas, scientists say. If someone were trying to design a particularly nasty weed, Palmer amaranth could be the model, York said. It's an extremely competitive weed, he said. It's extremely prolific. It's an efficient ... bad weed. In Georgia, where the weed has been confirmed in 48 fields, amaranth took over some fields and the cotton had to be cut down, rather than harvested, said University of Georgia weed scientist Stanley Culpepper. The weed can damage cotton pickers, the huge machines that pluck the world's leading natural fiber from the cotton bolls. Glyphostate is sold under several brand names, but the leading product is Roundup, made by Monsanto. The company revolutionized cotton growing in the 1990s when it introduced BT cotton cotton that was genetically engineered with its own built-in pest defenses. Monsanto also introduced Roundup Ready cotton plants that wouldn't perish with the weeds when a field was sprayed with a glyphostate herbicide. Those two developments enabled cotton growers to drastically reduce the amount of chemicals used in their fields and to switch to conservation tillage, which reduces soil erosion and helps to retain moisture in the soil. The improved efficiency also lowered costs for such things as labor, equipment and fuel. That technology I think is the most valuable agronomic tool there is and sustaining it is essential to the viability of the family farm, Culpepper said. He said Roundup has been so good, so economical and such a benign herbicide, that we became dependent on it. It had everything everyone would need, he said. But when you rely too heavily on one technology, resistance will eventually develop. Before Roundup Ready cotton, farmers often had to plow the field to bury weeds and their seeds and then protect the crops from pests with heavy chemical applications. Now many use conservation tillage, which barely disturbs the soil. If we lost conservation tillage in the Southeast, the financial and environmental consequences would be nothing short of catastrophic, said Eddie Green, who grew 1,750 acres of cotton on a family farm near Unadilla and suspects he may have some of the resistant Palmer amaranth. He farms in Dooly County, where the resistant weed has been confirmed. It has also been confirmed in nearby Macon, Taylor and Lee counties. Monsanto, which posted a letter in April alerting growers to the problem, has worked with the Memphis-based National Cotton Council to develop an online course on weed control and is assisting Culpepper, York and others with the resistance problem. This is something we do look at very seriously, said Monsanto representative Michelle Starke. We want growers to be successful with our products. Monsanto has suggested using Roundup in combination with other herbicides known to kill the resistant weed. Culpepper and others also recommend alternative herbicides. We can for sure say it's going to cost more money, said York. You're going to have more herbicides to try to beat it back. Is it going to put us out of the cotton business? I hope not, but it's going to make it more challenging. Andy Jordan, the Cotton Council's vice president for technical services, predicted the threat from glyphostate-resistant amaranth will spur farmers to re-examine their weed-management practices. The glyphostate-resistant technology in the cotton plant has been a real boon to weed control and efficient cotton production, he said. If we don't respond ... it could be very serious. BR Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken ; First, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the varieties you speak of are patentable under existing laws. Second, nobody is prevented from developing anything they want by selective breeding. They should just not be able to patent it. And third, ask a farmer who has selectivly developed his own strain only to have it infected by a patented GMO (and necessarily destroyed) if there should be patent protection for life forms. BR Peter G. Thailand --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about people who develop new varieties the old fashioned way through selective breeding. Granted some advances are not to our liking such as tomatoes that have a longer shelf life and don't bruise easily but taste like cardboard and almonds that are bred to be smaller so they fit on the candy bars that keep on shrinking, but there are important advances too. Ken - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2006 10:22:18 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi All ; You know, you cannot patent a perpetual motion machine of any kind. Why couldn't we do the same for life forms? In other words, let's say the patent office announced that in 3 years, any and all life forms cannot be patented. There would be a rush to complete existing work, and then the GMO problem would be over. Very little effect on anyone. Existing patents expire in 17 years. Problem solved. If someone asks how they can protect their investment, the answer is then don't invest. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business (http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken ; This is exactly what should be changed. This is what is creating the GMO problem. Patent protection for inventions, yes. They stay on your land or in your house and don't affect me if I don't want them. Patent protection for life forms which spread uncontrollably from your field to mine, thus requiring payment of patent licensing fees, no. Millions of people develope strains by selective breeding and never bother to apply for patents. I see no reason why these people would not continue to do so if the patent law was changed. There would be no shortage of improved plants. If we cannot agree on this list that GMO's are a problem and will cause the death of millions, how can the world ever agree? Also, you haven't addressed my second and third points. BR Peter G. --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, Here's the quote from the US gov patent office website: Plant Patents The law also provides for the granting of a patent to anyone who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber-propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. Asexually propagated plants are those that are reproduced by means other than from seeds, such as by the rooting of cuttings, by layering, budding, grafting, inarching, etc. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 3:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; First, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the varieties you speak of are patentable under existing laws. Second, nobody is prevented from developing anything they want by selective breeding. They should just not be able to patent it. And third, ask a farmer who has selectivly developed his own strain only to have it infected by a patented GMO (and necessarily destroyed) if there should be patent protection for life forms. BR Peter G. Thailand Sponsored Link Try Netflix today! With plans starting at only $5.99 a month what are you waiting for? http://www.netflix.com/Signup?mqso=80010030 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken ; If someone developed a genetically modified plant that would grow well in marginal areas and produced high quality vegetable oil, that could be easily extracted, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Or for that matter, if someone developed a plant that grew well in marginal areas and contained high-quality protein, low glycemic carbohydrates, and many needed trace nutrients, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? This is the cruel hoax and seduction. Taken in isolation of course it is a good thing, but the problem is it is never in isolation. How many tests and failures were needed to make this one success? What was the total cost to the earth? How many crops needed to be destroyed? How many small farmers put out of business or committed suicide? How many other life forms (birds, animals, fish, people, viruses, bacteria, etc) were affected or decimated (or made more dangerous)? And your case is only hypothetical wishful thinking for the future. The failures are here already. I too have concerns about GMO's. As the process evolves and becomes easier, sooner or later, someone somewhere is going to make a serious mistake, Please don't speak in the future tense. The serious mistakes have already been made. It is the disaster that is coming that really worries me. but denying patent protection is an overly simplistic suggestion that will not solve the problem. Large companies can still make lots of money with GMO's even if they couldn't be patented, it would just cut into their profits, a little. So why don't they? What is will do is deny the corporations the right to get patent fees from anyone who has been contaminated, which soon will be everyone, including you and me. The fact that some people have developed plant varieties and have not patented them is not an argument to do away with plant patents. Just as the fact that some people have developed traditional inventions (in fact some people on this list and JTF) and never bother to patent them is not an argument to do away with the patent office completely. But I wasn't using this as an argument to do away with patent protection for plants. I was using it to show that there would be no shortage of improved plants. I don't like the fact that large corporations use bullying tactics, the WTO or trade agreements to rape the little guy in their pursuit of the almighty dollar, so what else is new? What's new is the raping is spread by wind and grows exponentially with its own energy and a life force. That is certainly new. This is not some widget. FYI Monsanto lost its ridiculous case, when it sued a farmer when their genetically modified wheat spread uncontrollably to his fields. That's it? You think this will stop them? And at what cost to the farmer in stress, money, time, and lower quality wheat? What is the cost to the planet? What is the future cost to the planet when we continue to move in this direction? Ken BR Peter G. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 6:21:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; This is exactly what should be changed. This is what is creating the GMO problem. Patent protection for inventions, yes. They stay on your land or in your house and don't affect me if I don't want them. Patent protection for life forms which spread uncontrollably from your field to mine, thus requiring payment of patent licensing fees, no. Millions of people develope strains by selective breeding and never bother to apply for patents. I see no reason why these people would not continue to do so if the patent law was changed. There would be no shortage of improved plants. If we cannot agree on this list that GMO's are a problem and will cause the death of millions, how can the world ever agree? Also, you haven't addressed my second and third points. BR Peter G. --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, Here's the quote from the US gov patent office website: Plant Patents The law also provides for the granting of a patent to anyone who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber-propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. Asexually propagated plants are those that are reproduced by means other than from seeds, such as by the rooting of cuttings, by layering, budding, grafting, inarching, etc. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 3:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken ; If someone developed a genetically modified plant that would grow well in marginal areas and produced high quality vegetable oil, that could be easily extracted, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Or for that matter, if someone developed a plant that grew well in marginal areas and contained high-quality protein, low glycemic carbohydrates, and many needed trace nutrients, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? This is the cruel hoax and seduction. Taken in isolation of course it is a good thing, but the problem is it is never in isolation. How many tests and failures were needed to make this one success? What was the total cost to the earth? How many crops needed to be destroyed? How many small farmers put out of business or committed suicide? How many other life forms (birds, animals, fish, people, viruses, bacteria, etc) were affected or decimated (or made more dangerous)? And your case is only hypothetical wishful thinking for the future. The failures are here already. I should have added the failures and suicides are already here. Furthermore, the question is not whether this is a good thing or not, the question is whether it should receive patent protection or not. What if I add to this fantastic oil and protein plant the fact that is has very small seeds which can be carried everywhere by wind, water, train, ship, and combine. Then we add that it is a strong growing plant which tends to overgrow the existing vegetation. Then the developers of this plant ride around the country and spread seeds everywhere. Seed is spread worldwide even against the wishes of many nations. Private household farm crops are overtaken by this plant and destroyed worldwide. Commercial farm crops are overgrown by this plant and on top of that need to pay patent licensing fees (as well as lawyer and court costs if they choose to fight). Then we add that the developers of this plant expect very high patent fees, and the courts agree (in other words farms are forced to pay or close). Still think it should have patent protection? BR Peter G. Thailand Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi All ; You know, you cannot patent a perpetual motion machine of any kind. Why couldn't we do the same for life forms? In other words, let's say the patent office announced that in 3 years, any and all life forms cannot be patented. There would be a rush to complete existing work, and then the GMO problem would be over. Very little effect on anyone. Existing patents expire in 17 years. Problem solved. If someone asks how they can protect their investment, the answer is then don't invest. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business (http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] diesel tree
Hi Keith ; Anyone know where to order seeds? BR Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous
Hi Keith ; -cut- These critical remarks should be read in light of growing evidence of extremely serious impacts on health, environment and the livelihoods of Third World farmers. A European regulatory requirement for genetic safety testing, which is not required in Canada or the US, has revealed genetic instability in many GM crop varieties. Scientists are finding harmful impacts on soil micro-organisms, beneficial insects and laboratory animals exposed to genetically modified crops and GE food. Farmers in India are committing suicide by the hundreds in Andra Pradesh and other states because of GM crop failures. (www.navdanya.org/articles/seeds_suicide.htm) People and animals have become ill and even died after consumption or exposure to products containing genetically modified organisms. Unlike traditional plant breeding, in genetic engineering of crops, unrelated organisms, such as bacteria, are snipped apart and sections of their genes inserted into plants with unpredictable results. -cut-- While I agree wholeheartedly with the basis of the post, these types of posts seem to suggest that GM would be OK if all the problems with the environment and harmful effects could be solved. Sorry for repeating myself ad nausium, but GM is still incredibly dangerous even if there were NO harmful effects at all and they actually did produce bumper crops. Why? Answer : By purchasing and using GM products, we are supporting and allowing the GM industry to proliferate in knowledge, equipment, and people who know how to use it. And there has never been a single instance where a new technology has not been siezed by the military (and ordinary people as well) and examined for every possible method to harm and kill people. In addition to the military, sadly some people have bad intentions. For a small example, consider how many computer viruses there are. Who writes a computer virus and for what purpose? Some are for marketing and some are solely destructive. These poeple have taken a positive force (computers) and turned it into a highly negative and destructive force. These posts worry about accidental side effects. I am talking about deliberately designing an organism whose effect will be to kill people (either through disease or starvation or some other mechanism). So don't worry so much about the accidental side effects (which undoubtedly can be significant). Worry much more about the deliberate side effects from militaty usage where the goal is to kill people. If the accidental side effects of GM are disastrous, how much more so will the results of deliberate harmful and destructive actions by individuals or the military? BR Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous - technology.
Hi Bob ; We were better off running down the gazelles and ripping their throats out with our teeth. ;- Ha, don't laugh. Where I have my farm in Cambodia, the local poeple have no running water, no electricity, almost no roads. They manage to live without most of the modern conveniences and most appear to be happy people. Yet many are deformed physically (not to mention dead) due to a long war and landmines. If I asked them what has science and technology done for them, almost all the answers would be negative. A few good things are the creation of sensitive mine detectors and decent prosthetic limbs. Technology and medicine is great but these things matter little when the Americans are carpet bombing your country out of existence, and the Russians are planting landmines at a furious pace with no record keeping. In Thailand there is a saying : When elephants fight, ants die. All things considered I believe the net effect of technology is negative. Taken to it's logical conclusion, the best course for mankind would be to live like we lived long ago. There once was a prominent leader who advocated living this way. His name was Jesus. BR Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous - technology.
Hi Bob ; No problem at all. It is not technology itself that gets us in trouble, but rather the application. Yes this is true. You know when I am editing a Word document I am amazed at how long it takes to create the document from scratch, but I can delete it almost instantly. The point is that destroying is so much easier than creating. A single match can destroy a house, but nothing similar to a match could create a house. Even if 99 people out of one hundred are good, the one bad can cause so much destuction that the balance can be shifted enough so that the net effect is negative for all. If we could weed out the 1 bad guy out of 100, then I would be all for technology. But even so there is always the cumulative effect of technology which is not so easy to identify. If we lived simply, yes we would have leprosy (but probably a lot less cancer), we wouldn't have open heart surgery (but probably less heart disease), we would have to walk to work (but we wouldn't have global warming or Peak Oil or obesity problems), we wouldn't have electricity (but no low level uranium dumps or acid rain or the atom bomb or Depleted Uranium munitions), general sickness, even plagues (but not anti-biotic resistant organsms, the jury is still out on plagues, we still have HIV, H5N1, TB), etc. IMHO, it is not at all clear that the net effect of technology is a positive one. My recommendation is approach with caution. Keep up the good work. I have yet to make my first test batch (sorry Keith), but I'm working on it. BR Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Lots of stainless tanks in Richmond, VA, USA.
Hi All ; Ridiculous amount of stainless tanks, pumps and other equipment in Richmond, VA. Sale ends June 22. Good luck bidding. http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?AuctionID=10431 BR Peter G. Thailand --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vegetarianism is a cultural and social, rather than a biological, phenomenon. Anatomically and physiologically, the digestive organs of the human species are designed for both animal and plant foods. Moreover, a global cross-cultural survey demonstrates the fact that all cultures, past and present, have revealed a preference for at least some form of animal fat and protein and that none have ever been totally vegetarian -- Leon Abrams. The preference for animal protein and fat: A cross-cultural survey. In Food and evolution Toward a theory of human food habits, ed Marvin Harris and Eric B Ross, 207-23. Philadelphia, Pa. 1987 Price never found a totally vegetarian culture. Modern anthropological data support this: all cultures and peoples show a preference for animal foods and animal fat. -- H. Leon Abrams. Vegetarianism: An Anthropological/Nutritional Evaluation, Jnl of Applied Nutrition, 32:2, 1980. As yet, I have not found a single group.which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foodsIn every instance where groups involved had been long under this teaching, I found evidence of degeneration... -- Weston A. Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price, 1939; 1945 Full text online at the Small Farms Library: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#price Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price, 1939, Paul B. Hoeber, Inc, New York, London Weston Price (1870-1948) was truly the Charles Darwin of nutrition. He discovered what health is made of, and proved it beyond any doubt. In the early 1930s Price travelled more than 100,000 miles to study the diets and health of isolated primitive peoples all over the world, at a time when such communities still existed -- people who were living in accordance with the tradition of their race and as little affected as might be possible by the influence of the white man. What he found makes fascinating reading, turning many of our modern ideas on their heads. Then Price compared these communities to other, less isolated groups of the same peoples, exposed to the trade foods produced by industrial society (processed foods grown by synthetic farming methods), in the shape of the white man's store. He found it takes only one generation of eating industrialized food to destroy health and immunity. But he leaves us with the promise of regeneration -- thwarted health can be recaptured. Full text online. See Journey to Forever's review of this extraordinary book. http://journeytoforever.org/text_price.html See the Weston A. Price Foundation for more information: http://www.westonaprice.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How much water is used to produce ethanol? Please
Hi Doug ; Apparently the big plants use vacuum to completely evaporate and recycle all water used during fermentation and distillation. This yields distillers spent grains with soluables, a more valuable byproduct. Also it is a closed loop system so fewer problems with EPA and so on. BR Peter G. Thailand --- DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, This really depends on how the ethanol is produced. For instance, if you are doing the old fashion method of mashing then you will have greater water consupmtion versus a direct enzyme conversion (adding alpha/beta amalyse directly). Additionally, water can be recovered from the solids after distillation has occured. Also, there may be water requirements for the condenser. This water is in a closed system but may be important to you. Generally, when fermeting your water/sugar mixture will yield a water/alcohol mixture. This can range as high as 20% ethanol (though, I have never hit more then 15% personally). So, best case, you are using roughly 4/5ths water for 1/5th alcohol. Of course that does not take into consideration any loss due to boiling/mashing/converting. While that doesn't answer the specific question it may give you some info for further research. I would suggest contacting an ethanol producer in your area. They may be able to help you out. -dave KC0PBZ On Friday, May 26, 2006 2:44 PM, Doug Younker wrote: Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:44:40 -0500 From: Doug Younker To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] How much water is used to produce ethanol? Please I googled ethanol faq, visited this group's archives along with JtF webpage. In the event the answer to may question was there I evidently scrolling by it. ethanol is hoped to be the savior of the family farm here in Western Kansas. Recently a letter to the editor made some claims of how much water was needed/used to produce one gallon of ethanol. Due to that I', looking for evidence of how much water is really used. Facilities to produce ethanol have been built, are being built, the construction of more being planned for. Water is an issue here so how much water could we expect to use in the processing of grain into ethanol? I don't know if it makes a difference,some plants where built with using Milo (grain sorghum). Milo being selected because it does well when dry land farmed. Thanks... -- Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] free inline fuel heater?
Hi Teo ; Now, if I plug them in to the 220V plugs, I know that they will give twice the heat. Power = Voltage squared / Resistance If you double the voltage the power will be 4 times higher. The heater will probably burn out quickly. Two in series would disspiate twice the power (each one dissipating its normal power) and would work fine. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] free inline fuel heater?
Hi Rob ; Joe, have you ever tried to take the works from a Mr coffee machine and hook them up to DC? Probably not enough power to heat quickly. Resistance = Voltage squared/power. Assuming you are discussing a 120V appliance, and if we simplify and say the resistance is constant with changing temperature, we have : Resistance = 120 * 120 / 850 = 17 ohms. Connected to 12V this would produce 8.5 watts of heating. I think too small to heat fuel effectively. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol
Hi Keith and All ; I had a bug infestation eating new leaves on some trees I was growing. The only thing I had handy was some 85% methanol. I used a hand pump spray bottle and sprayed it on, and the plants loved it, the bugs all died and haven't come back yet. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Preparation of ethanol from molasses
Hi Keith ; This is a great idea and link!! Thanks. Best Regards, Peter G. Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] temperate oilseed tree?
Hi Keith ; You can get seeds from ECHO. Try jojoba too. I just ordered 5,000 moringa seeds. US$150 including shipping. At the post office now. I'll post info on germination rate later. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Dear Sirs Your ordered Moringa seeds are despatched by Speed post No. EE749036407IN DATED 20 AUGUST, 2005 TOTAL NO. OF SEEDS ARE 5000 , 500 SEEDS IN EACH PACKET. TOTAL NO. OF PACKETS 10 REGARDS PARITOSH GULATI PROJECT MANAGER ASIAN POWER CYCLOPES ROCHIPURA MAJRA DEHRADUN-248171 INDIA PHONE :- 91-135-2620488 FAX :- 91-135-2620961 MOBILE :- 9897226101 EMAIL:- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism
Hi Keith and Doug and All ; Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you can still by seeds that are heirloom. This is the present time. What is frightening is the direction that the planet is headed. How long before these heirloom seed suppliers are bought by the agro giants? How long before some gene sneaks into the heirloom verieties and patent infringment money is due? What to do when two different genes from two (or more!) different companies are in your crop? You'll be sue'ed from every direction. Respectfully we all need to wake up. It will not be long (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (including animals) will be patented. Anyone think that this will guarantee quality? Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents on life forms. And while they are at it they should make it illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds. Best Regards, Peter G. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Improving Ethanol Distilation Efficiency
Hi Marilyn ; I understand that castor oil absorbes ethanol but not water. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know someone who developed a way to remove alcohol during fermentation, which would greatly cut the cost of making ethanol. I am trying to find people to link up with to replicate the process because he has dropped it. I did a search for remove alcohol during fermentation on your web site and on google and found nothing. Does anyone out there know of someone who has done this? Marilyn Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It takes approximately the same energy to produce ethanol, as you get out of using ethanol. ...The distillation process is the major loss of energy. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy efficiencies
Hi Hakan and All ; Trying to get back into this. The process of converting biomass to methanol requires pyrolization (thermochemical) reactors which convert the biomass to crude producer gases. (See 19th century gas street lighting and the process of charcoal production.) After washing the producer gas, primarily hydrogen and carbon monoxide, it is converted to methanol under high temperature and pressure in the presence of a catalyst. Yes this is how it could be done, but has anyone succeeded in doing it on a small scale and cost effectively? Tom Reed over on the gasification list has spent many years and huge amounts of money and succeeded in making 1 liter of methanol at great cost. I think the reason why ethanol is so popular is that people have been making it for thousands of years. Methanol is quite recent, only being discovered 100 years ago or so. There is a new patent for low pressure (10 bar), low temperature (150 C), methanol catalyst which is stable and easy to make. I could dig up the link if anyone wants. Perhaps it is in the JtF archives as well. Hoping to see some do-it-yourself articles in the public domain and then methanol will begin to generate interest. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] SS tanks in Minnesota, USA.
Hello All ; Food grade stainless fruit fuice stuff. Ends April 14. Some small, many big tanks. Have a look see. http://www.henrybutcher.com/en/saledetails.asp?SaleID=4547S=17 Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] SS tanks in Minnesota, USA.
Hi Mike ; Never occured to me at the time, but quite funny! LOL! Peter G. --- Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: O.K. I don't mean to send this thread off course. But, I thought you might get a chuckle out of this. Going through my email this morning, I discovered SS tanks in Minnesota, USA. Not being fully awake and totally misunderstood the thread, I wasn't sure what to expect.. :-) Mike AntiFossil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Peter, Thanks for this post. Some very useable items in there. For anyone in need of milk crate sized, heavy gauge wire baskets, this auction has tons of them. Thanks again Peter, AntiFossil On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:16:29 -0800 (PST), Guag Meister wrote: Hello All ; Food grade stainless fruit fuice stuff. Ends April 14. Some small, many big tanks. Have a look see. http://www.henrybutcher.com/en/saledetails.asp?SaleID=4547S=17 Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests
Hi Hal ; Yes good advice. I had worded it a little differently, but same idea, ie. selective felling of the less desired species to make room for the desired species to grow adequately. Without felling a few trees to open the canopy I had experience that new platings of the more desired species won't be productive. Sounds a lot better than clear cutting, which seems to be an accepted practise for clearing land before reforesting. Phasing it in, and carefully at that, sounds like a much better idea. Best Regards, Peter G. --- Hal Hewett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Guag: Seems a good approach would be to effect a gradual transition. I gather you're in Thailand and no nothing of that region, but I do work in forestry in Canada and am semi reliant on biofuels. There is no such thing as a useless tree--- promote the harvesting of less desired species and restock as you go. Have Fun, HRMH --- Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Keith ; I really and truly have no ulterior motive for asking this question, and I'm at a loss as to understand why it has generated such controvery. It was never my intention. When I click respond, Yahoo truncates a long response message about half way through with a mwessage ==message truncated==. I had to open a text window of the unresponded message and cut and paste your post and then type in the and line feeds to show your original post. Just trying to respond to the important points and keep it as brief as possible. If it mislead anyone than I am truly sorry. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Peter Hi Keith ; Oh boy, Uh-huh? I guess I'll try one more time to ask this hypothetical question and then I'll leave it alone. In the case of a standing forest of small trees, the preponderance of which are have a 3 sigma size distribution of 10 cm +/- 5 cm as a result of many decades of non-sustainable pilaging by the local people where any trees with perceived local utilization were removed, and additionally where I have identified the species of tree and determined that it presented no medicinal, culinary, or materials benefit, and additionally where I, in conjunction with the local people, determined that the clear ecological benefit of the tree would be significantly better provided by a multi-purpose tree, and therefore we would like to transition the forest in a sustainable manner towards the much acclaimed multi purpose use, how do we gently cause the transition in a sustainable manner? Oh, you cut it down? Are you sure you're not going to regret that? So then you are saying not to cut it down? I'm saying what I'm saying, and I said somewhat more than just the last few words: Not too many of this size and I guess we just need to define our terms. What do you call a tree 5 cm at the base? 30 cm? 1 meter? 2 meters? It depends which particular tree you mean. Not just which species, which tree. What would you call call a tree 5 cm at the base? What will you call it in five years' time? Oh, you cut it down? Are you sure you're not going to regret that? Same here, from below: My question much more basic : what happens to the existing forest when you try to transform it to these wonderful species? I'm assuming that most of it gets cut down. Why should it be? Then you are saying don't cut it down? Sorry Peter, if you want a book of rules or a technical operating manual you won't get them from me, nor any more broad sweeping generalised statements than you've already had. Have you looked at the big databases, like NewCrop, the Handbook of Energy Crops, Plants For A Future? No I didn't know they existed. This is precisely why I am here posting these questions. But one of them at least is listed on the Trees page at our site that you said didn't have any information. They're all on our site, and in the list archives. genuinely usable only as firewood. Asking the question what to do with these trees in this case is absolutely valid, even if the answer is to do nothing at all with them. It is not valid when the only information you have provided on them is their girth. This is a classic miscommunication (look at the original for a comparison): I was VERY gratified to find that each time I dug a hole I soon hit the remains of an old tree-stump! Right on top, every time. Cut down and burnt. So I got it right, as the original farmers had also got it right. You're looking
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests - Methods.
Hello Keith and All ; Doing lots of surfing on my painfully slow connection to try to figure out the principles involved in converting a standing native forest to a multi-purpose one. Huge amounts of info on what to do with cleared land. A few tidbits on how to convert land that has not been cleared. Continuing the search. From Agrofrestry Guides for Pacific Islands - Non Timber Forest Products for Pacific Islands Plant productivity in forests can be improved in several ways. For example, selective weeding around valued species can improve the plant's growth and yield. Enrichment plantings of the key NTFP (non timber forest product) species in the forest can boost existing populations in order for supply to keep up with demand. In some case, selective felling of trees may be used to open the canopy and stimulate seedling growth. Propagating seeds or cuttings from plants known to have superior growth and yeilds can improve the productivity of the resource over time. And from Agrofrestry Guides for Pacific Islands - Economics of Farm Forestry : Financial Evaluation for Landowners : Site preparation involves clearing the land for reforestation activities. Costs for preparation vary greatly depending on the condition of the site. Pasture is often the least expensive to prepare for forestry, while rough broken land such as lava flow can be very expensive. Sites with dense, woody vegetative cover can also be costly to prepare. Land formerly used for sugarcane or other industrial crops may require clearing as well as ripping with a bulldozer in order to break through compacted soil layers. Once again, I'm finding huge amounts of info on ally cropping, wind breaks, nitrogen fixing trees, multi species tree farming, etc, etc,, but almost every example appears to start with cleared land. Continuing to search, but so far the best option looks like selective felling. Clear cutting was something I was hoping to avoid. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Judge Dismisses Agent Orange Lawsuit
Hello All ; Look whose names keep popping up, Dow and Monsanto. The Brooklyn judge also found that the plaintiffs could not prove that Agent Orange had caused their illnesses, largely because of a lack of large-scale research. See below. Best Regards, Peter G. Thaland Judge Dismisses Agent Orange Lawsuit Thu Mar 10,11:13 AM ET By MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN, Associated Press Writer NEW YORK - A federal judge Thursday dismissed a lawsuit by some 4 million Vietnamese claiming that U.S. chemical companies committed war crimes by making Agent Orange for use during the Vietnam War. U.S. District Judge Jack B. Weinstein disagreed that allegedly toxic defoliant and similar U.S. herbicides should be considered poisons banned under international rules of war, even though they may have had comparable effects on people and land. The Brooklyn judge also found that the plaintiffs could not prove that Agent Orange had caused their illnesses, largely because of a lack of large-scale research. Plaintiffs' lawyers said an appeal was planned. The lawsuit was the first attempt by Vietnamese plaintiffs to seek compensation for the effects of Agent Orange, which is laden with the highly toxic chemical dioxin and has been linked to cancer, diabetes and birth defects among Vietnamese soldiers, civilians and American veterans. U.S. aircraft sprayed more than 21 million gallons of the chemical between 1962 to 1971 in attempts to destroy crops and remove foliage used as cover by communist forces. Lawyers for Monsanto, Dow Chemical and more than a dozen other companies had said they should not be punished for following what they believed to be the legal orders of the nation's commander in chief. They also argued that international law generally exempts corporations, as opposed to individuals, from liability for alleged war crimes. We've said all along that any issues regarding wartime activities should be resolved by the U.S. and Vietnamese governments, said Dow Chemical spokesman Scot Wheeler. We believe that defoliants saved lives by protecting allied forces from enemy ambush and did not create adverse health effects. The Department of Justice (news - web sites) had supported the chemical companies in court, saying a ruling against the firms could cripple the president's power to direct the military. A plaintiffs' lawyer, William Goodman, said the judge made a clear error in deciding Agent Orange was not a poison and said an appeal was planned. The use of this chemical in Vietnam was a scandal from the very beginning, and the failure of this court to redress these wrongs is a continuation of that scandal, Goodman said. Some 10,000 U.S. war veterans receive medical disability benefits related to Agent Orange. The Vietnamese government has said the United States has a moral responsibility for damage to its citizens and environment but has never sought compensation for victims. ___ On the Net: U.S. information on Agent Orange: http://www1.va.gov/agentorange __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests
Hi Keith ; This topic is of special interest to me. But I'm not clear on some things. What do you do when you start with a naturally occuring forest which has no tree species of any value? In other words, any valuable trees like teak have been cut long ago. Nearly all large trees have been cut. Lot's of small trees to 30 cm base diameter. Do you try to utilize these or not? Do you plant desired species? How do you do this? Do you just plant seedlings in the underbrush and hope they grow? On JTF there is talk of grafting? Is that part of the method? Could you summarize the essential points here? Lot's of info directed at convincing someone that tree crops are good thing, but then a shortage of info on what exactly to do about it. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] circuit simulator
Hi Doug ; Yes making sense now. FireFox is 5 megabytes, IE is 70! Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It work well with MS IE, so in my case modify that to say no *additional* HD space. :) Doug - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 3:33 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] circuit simulator : Hi All ; : : AND it doesn't take up any of my demising hard drive : space : : FireFox reported that it needed the Java Runtime : Environemnt. That's about 150 MEGA bytes. Are you : sure about no hard disk space? : : Best Regards, : : Peter G. : Thailand : : : : : __ : Do you Yahoo!? : Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! : http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Ishmael/ was: Too many People
Hi All ; Not knowing anything about Ishmael, it took a while to search the site to find the main points. But absolutely fascinating reading at : http://www.ishmael.com/Interaction/QandA/browse.cfm Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- JD2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok thanks. At first I was insulted what with Ishmael being a gorilla but I'm not any more and will be going to the book shop or library tomorrow to find a copy. Thank you, JD2005 - Original Message - From: Joanne Olafson Regarding both posts of these posts (see below) from JD2005, you can also check this website: www.ishmael.com - the website was started when the book was published. And yes, I also have very high regard for the book Ishmael. I totally agree with Marylynn: and you are interested in this subject...then reading this is a must. Regards, Joanne ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests
Hi Keith ; I doubt there is such a thing. Value means more than cash sale value. I knew you would say that! That's not a small tree Peter Not too many of this size and I guess we just need to define our terms. What do you call a tree 5 cm at the base? 30 cm? 1 meter? 2 meters? ? I'd not accept that it's not a useful tree without value. What do the local people traditionally do with those species of tree? Cut them down and make charcoal in pits with the big pieces, burn the small branches and leaves in open fires. No replanting at all. Not very clever or sophisticated. Do you try to utilize these or not? Of course. How? In other words, what happens to the existing forest? Does it stay or does it go? And if it goes, how? Do you cut it down? How do you do this? A different bit of forest 100 yards away would not be exactly the same, and another project than yours taking it on would have different aims and different many things, and thus find different solutions. There's no clearcut single answer to that question. Yes of course, but could you give me just one example so I can visualize this. The book you refer to below lists many species of multipurpose trees. If none of these are present in your forest to start, and if 20 years in the future you have a wonderful multipurpose forest, then you must assume that somewhere there will be a transformation from the native forest to the multipurpose forest. How to do this? (Hummor me, I know they are all different). One example would be sufficient for me to visualize the process. I don't think there is such a shortage of info. That's why I'm asking. I couldn't find anything on exactly how to do it. Do you know THE OVERSTORY, for instance? Go and do some browsing there. No I didn't, thanks for the link. Downloading some stuff now, but on Pacific Islands, so we'll see. There are lots of resources at the Trees section of our site: http://journeytoforever.org/tree.html Trees, soil and water You should read this: Tree Crops -- A Permanent Agriculture, by J. Russell Smith, Harcourt-Brace, New York, 1929; Devin-Adair, Connecticut, 1950; Island Press Conservation Classics, 1987, ISBN 0-933289-44-0 Russell Smith was 50 years ahead of his time, writing the basic text on agroforestry long before there was such a thing. He travelled widely and saw it all coming. The best book about trees -- it's inspired generations of environmental activists, including all the leading lights in the movement. Wonderful! Introductory chapters online in the Small Farms Library: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/smith/treecropsToC.html Buy the book from Island Press: http://www.islandpress.org/books/Detail.tpl?cart=30831123971221SKU=0- 933280-44-0 That's the page that I studied the most before I made my post. Lot's of info directed at convincing people that tree crops are a good thing, but not much info on how to do it. In other words, the missing chapters are for specific breeds. While this would be interesting, this is not my question yet, and I'm not at all suggesting that you should scan all the chapters for my sake. My question much more basic : what happens to the existing forest when you try to transform it to these wonderful species? I'm assuming that most of it gets cut down. Nothing wrong with this, just asking. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is Methane Production in Urban conditions possible?
Hi Teoman ; --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone produce methane in urban conditions? Can i produce enough methane to run my car? How large a processor would i need and what could i feed it with? Old newspapers and food scraps and grass once in a while from the appartments garden... Can't be very helpful here, but I understand methane digestors are typically large and produce small amounts of gas, enough for cooking. New work appearing on the net about feeding oil press cake and other feedstocks which appear to increase gas production significantly. For the car im thinking of large tank that i will use 2 or three fridge compressors in series to compress the gas to about 40 atm. Consider an oxygen cylinder or a compressed natural gas cylinder, but forget the fridge compressor idea. The seals and mechanics are not designed to withstand 40 atm's, and the seals will probably quickly leak or worse (explode). I have seen on the net a small 50 atm pump that looks like a bicycle hand pump, used for compressing air into paint ball cylinders. These are available in all sizes and prices and motorized. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests
Hi Keith ; Oh boy, I guess I'll try one more time to ask this hypothetical question and then I'll leave it alone. In the case of a standing forest of small trees, the preponderance of which are have a 3 sigma size distribution of 10 cm +/- 5 cm as a result of many decades of non-sustainable pilaging by the local people where any trees with perceived local utilization were removed, and additionally where I have identified the species of tree and determined that it presented no medicinal, culinary, or materials benefit, and additionally where I, in conjunction with the local people, determined that the clear ecological benefit of the tree would be significantly better provided by a multi-purpose tree, and therefore we would like to transition the forest in a sustainable manner towards the much acclaimed multi purpose use, how do we gently cause the transition in a sustainable manner? Oh, you cut it down? Are you sure you're not going to regret that? So then you are saying not to cut it down? Do you know what species of trees these are? What are their characteristics? What are the local names for them? How were they used traditionally? Those same species will also be found in other parts of East and Southeast Asia - what do those traditional cultures do with them? What is known about them botanically? Have you looked at the big databases, like NewCrop, the Handbook of Energy Crops, Plants For A Future? No I didn't know they existed. This is precisely why I am here posting these questions. You know we have a current problem which we are trying to solve independently, and that is that the local people know the names of these trees and they tell them to me in Khmer, but no dictionary has been found that has translation listed. I can only guess from my admittedly limited knowledge. I spent hours last time at some large bookstores looking. I'm working on it. How can you even ask this question when you haven't even identified the tree species yet, nor their mix and concentration, nor anything except their varying sizes and lack of value? Do you even know what species they are? A tree is a tree is a tree? Not! Prudent to investigate every outcome. One possible outcome is that some or many of the trees are genuinely usable only as firewood. Asking the question what to do with these trees in this case is absolutely valid, even if the answer is to do nothing at all with them. Peter, you want to cut it down and replace it with a monocrop oil-palm plantation, with the single purpose of providing feedstock for biodiesel manufacture. Quite incorrect. I'm sorry I gave you this impression. I thought I was quite clear that I DIDN'T want to monoculture. We had a discussion on the potential problems of trying to integrate on such a large scale as the 600,000 ht sunflower plantation. Look at this table here, Varieties to Plant and Their Uses, about a third of the way down: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010148f ert.farm/fertfarm-ch5.htm Turner: Fertility Farming, Chapter 5 Do you want me to go on? I doubt it's helping you much. In a way you are right because most all examples I find on the net assume you are starting with cleared land. That's why I am asking this question. From the referenced article, Your farm can be changed from bleak bareness to pleasantly dressed landscape in a dozen years, under average conditions, in less under rich conditions. I don't have bareness and I hope I never do. That's why I'm asking. Forests are not static things, they're constantly in transformation. Yes but without some help a walnut tree won't just appear by spontaneous generation. How to do this? (Hummor me, I know they are all different). One example would be sufficient for me to visualize the process. I don't think it would. Yes it would. Agroforestry resources will probably be helpful for you. OK great! I'll study it. My question much more basic : what happens to the existing forest when you try to transform it to these wonderful species? I'm assuming that most of it gets cut down. Why should it be? Then you are saying don't cut it down? I was VERY gratified to find that each time I dug a hole I soon hit the remains of an old tree-stump! Right on top, every time. Cut down and burnt. So I got it right, as the original farmers had also got it right. You're looking for a list of instructions to tell you how to do that? Not at all. I'm not asking how to plant desired species when existing trees have been cut, I'm asking how to plant desired specied when existing trees have NOT been cut. In your case the question I am asking was already answered for you : ie. the previous trees were already cut and burned. I will post one more background post on this subject. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests - Some background.
Hi Keith ; Many years ago my family had some rural land we children were tasked with planting 1,000 spruce fir seedlings on clear pasture at about 10 feet spacing. It took several days with string and pick-ax and a handful of fertilizer in each hole. Every year for about 5 years we clipped grass around each tree and fertilized. As children we dreaded it. But they grew nicely and formed a dense forest which provided much shelter for local wildlife (deer, rackoons, ground hogs, rabbits, etc.) and undoubtedly provided other benefits for the water table, erosion, etc. Then we also planted another 1,000 seedlings at totally random locations in a standing forest with one handful of fertilizer. Most of the existing trees were birch I think. No direct sunlight reacheds the forest floor in the summer. After 10 years, of the ones that we could find, some of the seelings had not grown at all, they were still tiny, after 10 years! A few did well. It could have been the fertilizer of it could have been lack of light. So Keith, nobody is going around cutting trees, but it is just prudent to ask the question, if you want to begin to grow multipurpose trees in an existing forest, like the ones listed in your referenced article, how do you do it??? Of are you saying don't do it??? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests
Hi Pannir ; Yes good tip. We expect to power our farm machinery with wood gas, and to manage some dedicated forest land (hopefully multipurpose trees) for that purpose. We are constructing a gasifier now. I went to visit one installed in Phnom Penh last month. Many problems with this technology though, not so straightforward as it looks initially, but we will persevere. Tried to buy a wood chipper in the US two months ago but far too expensive. We also plan to compost wood wastes for fertilizer. I have an ongoing compost experiment using sawdust and urine (not going so well, update shortly). Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Pannir P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Biomass of wood are the rich the source of briqueted charcoal, Bio oil and wood gas . this is a rich source of biofuels.Even the leves can be used for biogas and fertilizer production . This energy conservation need to done sustainable ways sd Pannirselvam On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:21:47 -0800 (PST), Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Keith ; This topic is of special interest to me. But I'm not clear on some things. What do you do when you start with a naturally occuring forest which has no tree species of any value? In other words, any valuable trees like teak have been cut long ago. Nearly all large trees have been cut. Lot's of small trees to 30 cm base diameter. Do you try to utilize these or not? Do you plant desired species? How do you do this? Do you just plant seedlings in the underbrush and hope they grow? On JTF there is talk of grafting? Is that part of the method? Could you summarize the essential points here? Lot's of info directed at convincing someone that tree crops are good thing, but then a shortage of info on what exactly to do about it. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitário CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : Av Odilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 Capim Macio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20 2171557 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Multiple Uses of Forests
Hello Keith ; I really and truly have no ulterior motive for asking this question, and I'm at a loss as to understand why it has generated such controvery. It was never my intention. When I click respond, Yahoo truncates a long response message about half way through with a mwessage ==message truncated==. I had to open a text window of the unresponded message and cut and paste your post and then type in the and line feeds to show your original post. Just trying to respond to the important points and keep it as brief as possible. If it mislead anyone than I am truly sorry. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Peter Hi Keith ; Oh boy, Uh-huh? I guess I'll try one more time to ask this hypothetical question and then I'll leave it alone. In the case of a standing forest of small trees, the preponderance of which are have a 3 sigma size distribution of 10 cm +/- 5 cm as a result of many decades of non-sustainable pilaging by the local people where any trees with perceived local utilization were removed, and additionally where I have identified the species of tree and determined that it presented no medicinal, culinary, or materials benefit, and additionally where I, in conjunction with the local people, determined that the clear ecological benefit of the tree would be significantly better provided by a multi-purpose tree, and therefore we would like to transition the forest in a sustainable manner towards the much acclaimed multi purpose use, how do we gently cause the transition in a sustainable manner? Oh, you cut it down? Are you sure you're not going to regret that? So then you are saying not to cut it down? I'm saying what I'm saying, and I said somewhat more than just the last few words: Not too many of this size and I guess we just need to define our terms. What do you call a tree 5 cm at the base? 30 cm? 1 meter? 2 meters? It depends which particular tree you mean. Not just which species, which tree. What would you call call a tree 5 cm at the base? What will you call it in five years' time? Oh, you cut it down? Are you sure you're not going to regret that? Same here, from below: My question much more basic : what happens to the existing forest when you try to transform it to these wonderful species? I'm assuming that most of it gets cut down. Why should it be? Then you are saying don't cut it down? Sorry Peter, if you want a book of rules or a technical operating manual you won't get them from me, nor any more broad sweeping generalised statements than you've already had. Have you looked at the big databases, like NewCrop, the Handbook of Energy Crops, Plants For A Future? No I didn't know they existed. This is precisely why I am here posting these questions. But one of them at least is listed on the Trees page at our site that you said didn't have any information. They're all on our site, and in the list archives. genuinely usable only as firewood. Asking the question what to do with these trees in this case is absolutely valid, even if the answer is to do nothing at all with them. It is not valid when the only information you have provided on them is their girth. This is a classic miscommunication (look at the original for a comparison): I was VERY gratified to find that each time I dug a hole I soon hit the remains of an old tree-stump! Right on top, every time. Cut down and burnt. So I got it right, as the original farmers had also got it right. You're looking for a list of instructions to tell you how to do that? Not at all. I'm not asking how to plant desired species when existing trees have been cut, I'm asking how to plant desired specied when existing trees have NOT been cut. Do you think I hadn't gathered that? So why do you think I used this example, just being woolly-minded? In your case the question I am asking was already answered for you : ie. the previous trees were already cut and burned. There's only one question, eh? The one you're asking, right or wrong. I find the way you've snipped all this it hardly makes any sense to me and bears little resemblance to what I wrote. Just dross, what you snipped, you think? You're not getting my point, and I don't wish to argue nor to be pushed into saying things I'd have said in the first place if I'd wanted to, so I'll back off now. Best wishes, and good luck Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of
Re: [Biofuel] Methane to LPG car
Hi Keith ; For a SI (Spark Ignition) engine the methane is mixed with air in a special gas/gas carburator, quite easy to make one yourself. For a diesel it is even easier if you can operate in a dual fuel mode. I did a fascinating experiment last month. I took a propane tank with a ordinary barbecue regulator, attached a long hose and stuffed the end of the hose into the air cleaner intake. Then I idled the engine. When you crack the propane valve, the rpm increases! What is happening is that the diesel fuel injector is still set for the idle position (and therefore consuming diesel at a rate consistent with an idle engine speed), but the air coming into the cylinder is now mixed with propone so has more energy and the rpm rises. Voila - duel fuel operation. Don't try this at home without parental supervision. Be careful that you don't supply more propane than the engine can consume, which could cause it to build up in the engine compartment and create an explosion hazard. Lot's of stuff on the net about this. Best Regards, Peter G. --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope To liquefy methane you need to take below -200K Degrees. Its called LNG. Methane is Natural Gas. You need to compress it to around 3000Psi To get effective storage in a car/truck/bus. Depended on driving distance. MT On the other hand, people have done it - Harold Bate, Jean Pain, I'm sure many more, and without massive expensive compressors. SCUBA-type pressures might be feasible, both for cost and practicability and for distances. EVs are often hampered by short range but people use them anyway. It depends what you want I suppose. Volvo's multi-fuel vehicles (that they bashed biodiesel over) were touted to be methane-capable, how does that work, anyone know? Regards Keith -Original Message- From: biofuel-bounces at wwia.org [mailto:biofuel-bounces at wwia.org] On Behalf Of Doug Younker Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 12:47 PM To: biofuel at wwia.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methane to LPG car I think there has to be more than meets the eye on such a conversion. Propane is stored a liquid and I assume methane is as well. Can the propane tanks withstand the pressure required to liquefy methane? Propane contains more energy than methane, will you realize a net savings? In any event I would guess you would have to adjust the fuel/air metering. Doug - Original Message - From: bioteo at 200iq.com To: biofuel at wwia.org Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methane to LPG car : I have an old petrol car (75 mercedes 230.4) converted to LPG recently. : But In the last few months the price of LPG has started to rise. I am : wondering if it is possible to use methane instead of LPG? : : I have a fridge compressor that I can compress the methane in to tanks, : the could I just connect the tank instead of the LPG tank? : : Could somebody tell me if this is doable with ease or would I need to : further convert the engine. : : Thanks : Teoman ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] circuit simulator
Hi All ; AND it doesn't take up any of my demising hard drive space FireFox reported that it needed the Java Runtime Environemnt. That's about 150 MEGA bytes. Are you sure about no hard disk space? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
