Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera)
On 10-10-26 09:57 PM, Seth Macdonald wrote: Thanks for the tip Chip! The only reason I would want to be heating the floor with Bio-diesel instead of water or Glycol heated by solar and/or a wood fired boiler, is because I have to dry the fuel anyways. I'd rather not waste that energy so to speak so I may as well pump the fuel throough the floor while I'm heating it and heat the building... When I need to heat the next batch, my thought was to have a hopper above the heating system which is allways full and I would recharge the system with exactly the amount I remove.. Eventually I'd love to run the system on solar or another renewable heat source... Seth(Dredneck) From: Chip Mefford[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tue, October 26, 2010 3:30:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera) I should clarify; The oil burner system shown, is a BACKUP to the solar collector system shown here: http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0751/963631204_narY5-XL.jpg When planning stuff like this, one of the key points to keep in mind, is the order of energy, as Amory Lovins puts it. Second law of thermodynamics. While an oil burner is in the same order of magnitude as the work in this case, heating the floor, it's still a higher quality of energy. A closer match is solar power. The closer the match, the more efficient, taking the long view. esp when you factor in the cracking of the biofuel in the first place. Biofuels, like fossilfuels are just too danged convenient for their own good. :) Using your ingenuity and some more of your food powered energy (IE doing work) you could probably front load your heating needs by dreaming up and implementing a solar heat collection/distribution system, which would drop the biofuel requirements for your heating needs radically. I know you are trying to get this done on a short timeline, but please plan for migrating the main energy source from the oil burner to solar collection, I think you'll be happy you did. You don't have time to do it this year, but maybe next summer. Again, neat project, keep us posted! cheers --chipper - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 11:11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' |SNIP |I am also madly trying to pour a floor in my shop complete with in-floor heating |pipes before freeze-up(which is happening SOON!) | |I am curious if anyone out there has ever tried to run Bio-Diesel in a hydronic |in-floor heating system. It seems to me to be the perfect solution to using |energy already consumed by the drying process to heat the facility. My biggest |question is wether or not plastic pex water pipe is compatible with bio-diesel. | |Any leads on this subject would be greatly appreciated, | |Sincerely, |The Dred Neck | |Dunster BC |Canada |V0J 1J0 http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0749/963631153_nZVUP-XL.jpg Hey Seth; What you see in this picture, is an experimental greenhouse soil bed heating system, which is based on the same concept as radiant floor heating. This system uses an oil burner converted to run biodiesel. It works. This system is installed at the Dickenson College Farm CSA, which grows the food for Dickenson College in Carlisle Pa, US. This is the website: http://www.dickinson.edu/about/sustainability/college-farm/ Jen Halpin is the farmer/farm manager, and her partner, Matt is the whacko who comes up with stuff like this. You can find her contact info on the website, and they may be able to share some clues with you. Good luck! Sounds like a fun project. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101026/521b00f9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera)
Hey Seth: - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:57:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera) Thanks for the tip Chip! The only reason I would want to be heating the floor with Bio-diesel instead of water or Glycol heated by solar and/or a wood fired boiler, is because I have to dry the fuel anyways. I'd rather not waste that energy so to speak so I may as well pump the fuel throough the floor while I'm heating it and heat the building... When I need to heat the next batch, my thought was to have a hopper above the heating system which is allways full and I would recharge the system with exactly the amount I remove.. Eventually I'd love to run the system on solar or another renewable heat source... Seth(Dredneck) Ah, this is very cool. yer thinking! Yeah, they call this 'co-generation'. Not wasting the heat. Very very forward thinking. Okay, things to keep in mind, Yer gonna want some kind of major liquid thermal mass storage. What I've seen in some very well engineered house systems, was stuff like a 2500 gallon storage tank buried beneath a part of the slab, as a place to store excess heat. You could use this for a lot of things, like preheating your inputs to your biodiesel system to save on the fuel load when running the process. You might want to put some long thought into this part of the engineering. Further, the slab itself. There is actually a lot of tricky engineering and physics involved in all this. For a conventional radiant slab system, folks put in the pipes, pour the slab, and 'buy' the pre-engineered heating system for the slab size/tempzone. There are a lot of considerations, not the least of which is that the actual amount of heat for the slab is relatively low, you are looking for a slab temp of 22-25c (72-77) and NO MORE. Believe it or not, a slab at a temp higher than 25 is actually uncomfortable, and further, you can CRACK THE SLAB. Adding too much heat can break the slab, adding the right amount of heat too quickly can break the slab. Once the slab cracks, then you have major problems with the system, as the tubing *will* fail, blah blah blah. Essentially, you are going to want to maintain the slab at or near the temp at which the concrete cured. Since this is getting pretty late in the year, this means you are going to be using a lot of additional heat to cure the slab at or near the optimal temp. I hope you are documenting this as you go, this is a very cool project, and I wish you all the luck in the world, keep up the good work! -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera)
I should clarify; The oil burner system shown, is a BACKUP to the solar collector system shown here: http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0751/963631204_narY5-XL.jpg When planning stuff like this, one of the key points to keep in mind, is the order of energy, as Amory Lovins puts it. Second law of thermodynamics. While an oil burner is in the same order of magnitude as the work in this case, heating the floor, it's still a higher quality of energy. A closer match is solar power. The closer the match, the more efficient, taking the long view. esp when you factor in the cracking of the biofuel in the first place. Biofuels, like fossilfuels are just too danged convenient for their own good. :) Using your ingenuity and some more of your food powered energy (IE doing work) you could probably front load your heating needs by dreaming up and implementing a solar heat collection/distribution system, which would drop the biofuel requirements for your heating needs radically. I know you are trying to get this done on a short timeline, but please plan for migrating the main energy source from the oil burner to solar collection, I think you'll be happy you did. You don't have time to do it this year, but maybe next summer. Again, neat project, keep us posted! cheers --chipper - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 11:11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' |SNIP |I am also madly trying to pour a floor in my shop complete with in-floor heating |pipes before freeze-up(which is happening SOON!) | |I am curious if anyone out there has ever tried to run Bio-Diesel in a hydronic |in-floor heating system. It seems to me to be the perfect solution to using |energy already consumed by the drying process to heat the facility. My biggest |question is wether or not plastic pex water pipe is compatible with bio-diesel. | |Any leads on this subject would be greatly appreciated, | |Sincerely, |The Dred Neck | |Dunster BC |Canada |V0J 1J0 http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0749/963631153_nZVUP-XL.jpg Hey Seth; What you see in this picture, is an experimental greenhouse soil bed heating system, which is based on the same concept as radiant floor heating. This system uses an oil burner converted to run biodiesel. It works. This system is installed at the Dickenson College Farm CSA, which grows the food for Dickenson College in Carlisle Pa, US. This is the website: http://www.dickinson.edu/about/sustainability/college-farm/ Jen Halpin is the farmer/farm manager, and her partner, Matt is the whacko who comes up with stuff like this. You can find her contact info on the website, and they may be able to share some clues with you. Good luck! Sounds like a fun project. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera)
Thanks for the tip Chip! The only reason I would want to be heating the floor with Bio-diesel instead of water or Glycol heated by solar and/or a wood fired boiler, is because I have to dry the fuel anyways. I'd rather not waste that energy so to speak so I may as well pump the fuel throough the floor while I'm heating it and heat the building... When I need to heat the next batch, my thought was to have a hopper above the heating system which is allways full and I would recharge the system with exactly the amount I remove.. Eventually I'd love to run the system on solar or another renewable heat source... Seth(Dredneck) From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tue, October 26, 2010 3:30:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera) I should clarify; The oil burner system shown, is a BACKUP to the solar collector system shown here: http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0751/963631204_narY5-XL.jpg When planning stuff like this, one of the key points to keep in mind, is the order of energy, as Amory Lovins puts it. Second law of thermodynamics. While an oil burner is in the same order of magnitude as the work in this case, heating the floor, it's still a higher quality of energy. A closer match is solar power. The closer the match, the more efficient, taking the long view. esp when you factor in the cracking of the biofuel in the first place. Biofuels, like fossilfuels are just too danged convenient for their own good. :) Using your ingenuity and some more of your food powered energy (IE doing work) you could probably front load your heating needs by dreaming up and implementing a solar heat collection/distribution system, which would drop the biofuel requirements for your heating needs radically. I know you are trying to get this done on a short timeline, but please plan for migrating the main energy source from the oil burner to solar collection, I think you'll be happy you did. You don't have time to do it this year, but maybe next summer. Again, neat project, keep us posted! cheers --chipper - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 11:11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' |SNIP |I am also madly trying to pour a floor in my shop complete with in-floor heating |pipes before freeze-up(which is happening SOON!) | |I am curious if anyone out there has ever tried to run Bio-Diesel in a hydronic |in-floor heating system. It seems to me to be the perfect solution to using |energy already consumed by the drying process to heat the facility. My biggest |question is wether or not plastic pex water pipe is compatible with bio-diesel. | |Any leads on this subject would be greatly appreciated, | |Sincerely, |The Dred Neck | |Dunster BC |Canada |V0J 1J0 http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0749/963631153_nZVUP-XL.jpg Hey Seth; What you see in this picture, is an experimental greenhouse soil bed heating system, which is based on the same concept as radiant floor heating. This system uses an oil burner converted to run biodiesel. It works. This system is installed at the Dickenson College Farm CSA, which grows the food for Dickenson College in Carlisle Pa, US. This is the website: http://www.dickinson.edu/about/sustainability/college-farm/ Jen Halpin is the farmer/farm manager, and her partner, Matt is the whacko who comes up with stuff like this. You can find her contact info on the website, and they may be able to share some clues with you. Good luck! Sounds like a fun project. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101026/521b00f9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
