Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward Thinking.
That sounds great. Sounds like you are a good man for this job! Do you have a portable unit you could demonstrate on? Make some fuel in front of their eyes, then pour it straight into a diesel truck, and drive it around in front of them. Then there can be no question or doubt. That may be to much to try to do, or take to long but it would be awesome! People would not stop talking about it, and that's the idea. Get them talking, interested, amazed, and convinced; bio fuels are an answer to our fuel and energy problems. Thank you, Jennifer - Original Message - From: Lyle Estill To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward Thinking. Dear Jennifer et al. I'll bite. I've been making biodiesel for three years, I'm well into my second back porch refinery, and I've addressed a number of large groups--DOE conferences on down. I'm on my way to NBB next week in D.C., and I have done some legislative work on biodiesel in North Carolina. As for Berkley having the corner (can't say I haven't learned a lot from those folks), at Piedmont Biofuels we have three people who are overwhelmed by education and outreach activities at this point. Can travel. On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:30 PM, Keith Addison wrote: > Isn't someone going to take Jennifer up on her suggestion? We have > members around Boston, or within reach of it. Good opportunity. > > (Welcome, Jennifer!) > > Best wishes > > Keith > > > >> Hello Phil, Martin, and the rest of bio fuel members. >> >> I am new to the group, and I just recently learned about bio fuels >> myself. I know I have already told a dozen or so folks about them >> as well. I have not gotten the two headed look, but most people are >> skeptical of what they don't know. It's like they don't want to >> believe something could be so simple. I am quick to tell them that >> Big Business, and our own government, are the main reason's no one >> knows about this. That alone gets half the people I know >> interested then it is not just a bunch of PhD's dreaming, it is >> a reality and a conspiracy. For some reason this makes bio fuels >> more creditable to most people I talk to. I am not an authority or >> expert, but I would like to learn more. I think the rest of the >> U.S. would like to know also. The last weekend of July many >> progressive, forward thinking, intelligent people will be converging >> in and around Boston. This will be a prime opportunity to tell >> others about bio fuels. I mentioned it to a few event leaders, and >> they were wanting some people to give a talk or discussion. The >> Progressive Summit will be the week before the DNC Convention in >> Boston. Kevin Spidel was wanting to know if some one would be >> interested in addressing the group, and also the Democracy Fest 2004 >> will be the same weekend, about two hours from Boston, Jessica >> Falker is the main organizer of that event. They are still looking >> for forward thinking activist to enlighten the crowds. I am not >> qualified to discuss what I am just beginning to learn about, but I >> am trying to spark interest in others, and trying to learn more >> myself. If you think you could give a presentation at either event >> please let me know. Or just go down for the weekend, have some fun, >> and talk to as many people as you can. I'll attach a copy of an >> email I have been sending out to people I know, in case you are >> interested, or in case you can enlighten me more. >> P.S. sorry my first post is so long, promise I won't do this often. >> --- Jennifer Doty >> >> Hello All, >> >>I read a recent article about energy independence. I am very >> glad to see some people touching on this subject. I would like to >> see more in-depth articles, that really show the citizens of the >> U.S. how screwed up our current administration is. For a long time >> we have known about the green house effect, the poisons we are >> putting into our environment, and the face that we will be running >> out of Oil world wide. What I don't understand is why so many of us >> think that there is nothing simple we can do about it. Very few >> people in America know that we can produce clean fuels, that will >> power our cars with almost no change to our current engines and fuel >> systems. I did not know until I got into a discussion with my &
Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward Thinking.
>> >> It is becoming increasingly more clear to a growing group of >> distinguished scientists that the "hydrogen economy" is really a >> ruse -- a distraction -- and our only viable, long-term, >> transportation option is renewables. The National Academy of >> Science and National Academy of Engineering (NAS/NAE) have recently >> released the most thorough study thus far on the "hydrogen economy", >> The Hydrogen Economy: Opportunities, Costs, Barriers, and R&D Needs, >> http://www.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/ . This study definitely >> gets it right on most accounts, but still understates the hydrogen >> challenges. >> >> First, the NAS/NAE study gets it right on both current fuel-cell >> (FC) state-of-the-art and on CO2 emissions from hydrogen production. >> Production of liquid hydrogen (which is required for practical >> distribution) from natural gas, results in the release of over 20 kg >> of CO2 for every kilogram of liquid hydrogen (H2) produced (1 kg of >> H2 has the energy of 1 gal. of gasoline). Liquid hydrogen from >> coal, which is what we'll be using in 25 years, results in the >> release of 30 kg of CO2 per kg of H2 (unless the CO2 is sequestered, >> which adds $1 per kg of H2). After another decade of progress, >> hydrogen vehicles (with production-grade FCs then getting 38% >> efficiency) will cause over three times as much CO2 to be released >> per mile as advanced diesel hybrids -- and that's without even using >> biodiesel. >> >> However, the NAS/NAE report fails to address the seriousness of the >> issue of FC vehicle cost. After more than a decade of intensive FC >> R&D, there is still no basis for the hope that it will eventually be >> possible to produce vehicle-grade FC systems priced within a factor >> of ten of what will be required to compete with the advanced diesel >> hybrid. The NAS/NAE study notes that 75 kW (100 hp) proton exchange >> membrane fuel cells (PEMFCs) with unimpressive efficiency (30-35%) >> are finally commercially available in the range of $3000-5500/kW for >> stationary applications, but these FCs (which would come to $500K >> for a typical car) would be quickly and seriously incapacitated >> under road conditions -- by vibration, freezing temperatures, or the >> air pollution levels often encountered in heavy traffic. They >> typically last less than 30,000 miles. >> >> A second major problem in the NAS/NAE study was its hydrogen price >> estimates. The DOE/EIA has been forced to make major upward >> revisions in their price projections every year for the past six >> years. More realistic projections expect natural gas in 2025 to >> cost $16/GJ at the city gate, which is still only 50% above recent >> peaks but 3.5 times the price assumed in the NAS/NAE report. >> Realistic hydrogen price projections (see 'A Realistic Look at >> Hydrogen Price Projections', >> http://www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_H2Price.pdf ) indicate hydrogen will >> cost 3 to 6 times what they are expecting, and the fuel cost per >> mile in the FC vehicle will be 4 to 8 times that in the advanced >> bio-diesel hybrid in 2025. >> >> The NAS/NAE report should have emphasized that next-generation >> biofuels for future transportation fuels need greatly increased >> attention and funding. Major investments are needed into advanced >> diesel hybrids, cellulosic ethanol, bio-methanol, high-oil algae, >> and advanced catalysts for standard fuels from methanol. >> >> For more detailed information on advanced biofuels, check out the >> following excellent articles: >> >> http://pubs.acs.org/email/cen/html/060804150713.html >> http://www.memagazine.org/pejun04/swineoil/swineoil.html >> http://www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_FutureFuels.pdf . >> >> Responsible planning to avert a looming energy crisis would have us >> re-direct much of the hydrogen funding to next-generation liquid >> biofuels, renewable fertilizers, wind, and solar. With modest >> increases in funding of advanced concepts in liquid biofuels, much >> better options are possible. >> >> >> *** >> F. David Doty, Ph.D. >> President >> Doty Scientific, Inc. >> 700 Clemson Rd. >> Columbia, SC 29229 >> Ph.: 803 788 6497 ext 307 >> Fax: 803 736 5495 >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: Martin Klingensmith >> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 4:12 PM >> Subject: Re: [biofuel] H
Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward Thinking.
>release of 30 kg of CO2 per kg of H2 (unless the CO2 is sequestered, >which adds $1 per kg of H2). After another decade of progress, >hydrogen vehicles (with production-grade FCs then getting 38% >efficiency) will cause over three times as much CO2 to be released >per mile as advanced diesel hybrids -- and that's without even using >biodiesel. > >However, the NAS/NAE report fails to address the seriousness of the >issue of FC vehicle cost. After more than a decade of intensive FC >R&D, there is still no basis for the hope that it will eventually be >possible to produce vehicle-grade FC systems priced within a factor >of ten of what will be required to compete with the advanced diesel >hybrid. The NAS/NAE study notes that 75 kW (100 hp) proton exchange >membrane fuel cells (PEMFCs) with unimpressive efficiency (30-35%) >are finally commercially available in the range of $3000-5500/kW for >stationary applications, but these FCs (which would come to $500K >for a typical car) would be quickly and seriously incapacitated >under road conditions -- by vibration, freezing temperatures, or the >air pollution levels often encountered in heavy traffic. They >typically last less than 30,000 miles. > >A second major problem in the NAS/NAE study was its hydrogen price >estimates. The DOE/EIA has been forced to make major upward >revisions in their price projections every year for the past six >years. More realistic projections expect natural gas in 2025 to >cost $16/GJ at the city gate, which is still only 50% above recent >peaks but 3.5 times the price assumed in the NAS/NAE report. >Realistic hydrogen price projections (see 'A Realistic Look at >Hydrogen Price Projections', >http://www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_H2Price.pdf ) indicate hydrogen will >cost 3 to 6 times what they are expecting, and the fuel cost per >mile in the FC vehicle will be 4 to 8 times that in the advanced >bio-diesel hybrid in 2025. > >The NAS/NAE report should have emphasized that next-generation >biofuels for future transportation fuels need greatly increased >attention and funding. Major investments are needed into advanced >diesel hybrids, cellulosic ethanol, bio-methanol, high-oil algae, >and advanced catalysts for standard fuels from methanol. > >For more detailed information on advanced biofuels, check out the >following excellent articles: > > http://pubs.acs.org/email/cen/html/060804150713.html > http://www.memagazine.org/pejun04/swineoil/swineoil.html > http://www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_FutureFuels.pdf . > >Responsible planning to avert a looming energy crisis would have us >re-direct much of the hydrogen funding to next-generation liquid >biofuels, renewable fertilizers, wind, and solar. With modest >increases in funding of advanced concepts in liquid biofuels, much >better options are possible. > > >*** >F. David Doty, Ph.D. >President >Doty Scientific, Inc. >700 Clemson Rd. >Columbia, SC 29229 >Ph.: 803 788 6497 ext 307 >Fax: 803 736 5495 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > - Original Message - > From: Martin Klingensmith > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 4:12 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of >Forward Thinking. > > > > > Phil Dodd wrote: > > Sitting here in my south-central pennsylvania funk lamenting the > > fact that when I talk biodiesel I am looked at like I have 2 heads. > > Though there is a couple of seminars coming to the Washington D.C. > > area next week and again in september. Are there any folks out here > > in the hinterlands of the Mid-Atlantic states that are actually > > making, using and spreading the word? Help save me from this desert > > of forward thinking before my mind starts to atrophy here in the > > land of the closed mind. > > > > Phil > > > > > > Hello Phil, > I live in northern New York [no, the Catskills are not northern NY] > I have been trying to get people interested for quite some time. It > isn't easy and it's slow, but I've been letting people know for a couple > years now that there are alternatives to petro-diesel and gasoline. I've > also been dispelling the widespread myth that ethanol is bad. Why is it > common belief that ethanol is a horrible fuel? > > -- > -- > Martin Klingensmith > http://infoarchive.net/ > http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward Thinking.
s (PEMFCs) with unimpressive efficiency (30-35%) are finally commercially available in the range of $3000-5500/kW for stationary applications, but these FCs (which would come to $500K for a typical car) would be quickly and seriously incapacitated under road conditions -- by vibration, freezing temperatures, or the air pollution levels often encountered in heavy traffic. They typically last less than 30,000 miles. A second major problem in the NAS/NAE study was its hydrogen price estimates. The DOE/EIA has been forced to make major upward revisions in their price projections every year for the past six years. More realistic projections expect natural gas in 2025 to cost $16/GJ at the city gate, which is still only 50% above recent peaks but 3.5 times the price assumed in the NAS/NAE report. Realistic hydrogen price projections (see 'A Realistic Look at Hydrogen Price Projections', http://www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_H2Price.pdf ) indicate hydrogen will cost 3 to 6 times what they are expecting, and the fuel cost per mile in the FC vehicle will be 4 to 8 times that in the advanced bio-diesel hybrid in 2025. The NAS/NAE report should have emphasized that next-generation biofuels for future transportation fuels need greatly increased attention and funding. Major investments are needed into advanced diesel hybrids, cellulosic ethanol, bio-methanol, high-oil algae, and advanced catalysts for standard fuels from methanol. For more detailed information on advanced biofuels, check out the following excellent articles: http://pubs.acs.org/email/cen/html/060804150713.html http://www.memagazine.org/pejun04/swineoil/swineoil.html http://www.dotynmr.com/PDF/Doty_FutureFuels.pdf . Responsible planning to avert a looming energy crisis would have us re-direct much of the hydrogen funding to next-generation liquid biofuels, renewable fertilizers, wind, and solar. With modest increases in funding of advanced concepts in liquid biofuels, much better options are possible. *** F. David Doty, Ph.D. President Doty Scientific, Inc. 700 Clemson Rd. Columbia, SC 29229 Ph.: 803 788 6497 ext 307 Fax: 803 736 5495 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message ----- From: Martin Klingensmith To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward Thinking. Phil Dodd wrote: > Sitting here in my south-central pennsylvania funk lamenting the > fact that when I talk biodiesel I am looked at like I have 2 heads. > Though there is a couple of seminars coming to the Washington D.C. > area next week and again in september. Are there any folks out here > in the hinterlands of the Mid-Atlantic states that are actually > making, using and spreading the word? Help save me from this desert > of forward thinking before my mind starts to atrophy here in the > land of the closed mind. > > Phil > > Hello Phil, I live in northern New York [no, the Catskills are not northern NY] I have been trying to get people interested for quite some time. It isn't easy and it's slow, but I've been letting people know for a couple years now that there are alternatives to petro-diesel and gasoline. I've also been dispelling the widespread myth that ethanol is bad. Why is it common belief that ethanol is a horrible fuel? -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the we
Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward Thinking.
Hi, And here I thought Berkely (UC Berkely) was famous for developing their own flavor of unix from which 3 distro have been created - FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD. -Al On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Martin Klingensmith wrote: > Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:12:40 -0400 > From: Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward > Thinking. > > > > Phil Dodd wrote: > > Sitting here in my south-central pennsylvania funk lamenting the > > fact that when I talk biodiesel I am looked at like I have 2 heads. > > Though there is a couple of seminars coming to the Washington D.C. > > area next week and again in september. Are there any folks out here > > in the hinterlands of the Mid-Atlantic states that are actually > > making, using and spreading the word? Help save me from this desert > > of forward thinking before my mind starts to atrophy here in the > > land of the closed mind. > > > > Phil > > > > > > Hello Phil, > I live in northern New York [no, the Catskills are not northern NY] > I have been trying to get people interested for quite some time. It > isn't easy and it's slow, but I've been letting people know for a couple > years now that there are alternatives to petro-diesel and gasoline. I've > also been dispelling the widespread myth that ethanol is bad. Why is it > common belief that ethanol is a horrible fuel? > > -- > -- > Martin Klingensmith > http://infoarchive.net/ > http://nnytech.net/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] How's Come Berkely is the Hot Bed of Forward Thinking.
Phil Dodd wrote: > Sitting here in my south-central pennsylvania funk lamenting the > fact that when I talk biodiesel I am looked at like I have 2 heads. > Though there is a couple of seminars coming to the Washington D.C. > area next week and again in september. Are there any folks out here > in the hinterlands of the Mid-Atlantic states that are actually > making, using and spreading the word? Help save me from this desert > of forward thinking before my mind starts to atrophy here in the > land of the closed mind. > > Phil > > Hello Phil, I live in northern New York [no, the Catskills are not northern NY] I have been trying to get people interested for quite some time. It isn't easy and it's slow, but I've been letting people know for a couple years now that there are alternatives to petro-diesel and gasoline. I've also been dispelling the widespread myth that ethanol is bad. Why is it common belief that ethanol is a horrible fuel? -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
