RE: [biofuel] Re: Fuel Ethanol Faq
chemistry processes: http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/ This Caveman Chemistry site is excellent. Thanks once again to Lori for putting such great stuff in our archives. regards Keith -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:57 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Fuel Ethanol Faq I was also trawling the archive, and came upon this interesting piece on alcohol via other routes than fermentation/distillation, from Mark Radosevich of Standard Alcohol Company. Note the last paragraph, on lignocellulosic conversion - a bit of a damper. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fuel Ethanol Faq
Keith I was looking at the archives and I have a question for you from message #3 http://infoarchive.net/index.php?view=3 http://infoarchive.net/index.php?view=3list=biofuel list=biofuel The key piece of technology is the automatic temperature sensor/controller valve, which precisely regulates the optimum temperature for separation of condensed alcohol from the water vapors. This ensures consistent production of 180 proof ethanol. The valve costs up to $225. We're searching for a good and hopefully cheaper source for these. I know I'm a little late in reply, but what would be the market requirement for these lately? Is anyone still building an ethanol still where they would buy an automatic temperature sensor/controller such as you describe? --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fuel Ethanol Faq
Hi Martin Keith I was looking at the archives and I have a question for you from message #3 http://infoarchive.net/index.php?view=3 http://infoarchive.net/index.php?view=3list=biofuel list=biofuel The key piece of technology is the automatic temperature sensor/controller valve, which precisely regulates the optimum temperature for separation of condensed alcohol from the water vapors. This ensures consistent production of 180 proof ethanol. The valve costs up to $225. We're searching for a good and hopefully cheaper source for these. I know I'm a little late in reply, Like two and a half years! :-) but what would be the market requirement for these lately? I've no idea. This is where you can get them. Automatic temperature control valves: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html#valve But that is not a good still (as elsewhere in the archives, round Nov 2000 I think), as we later discovered, as did others. A good still shouldn't need an automatic temperature control valve, that's not how distillation works, that's a crude way of doing it, with pretty crude results. Those valves are expensive. Is anyone still building an ethanol still where they would buy an automatic temperature sensor/controller such as you describe? There are some good still designs in our library (Mother Earth), but they don't use such valves. I've also been making very slow progress, but progress nonetheless, scanning the full specs, instructions and blueprints for the Butterfield still that Gaw tracked down and sent me, hope to finish it soon. Farm-scale. Have a look at Terry Wilhelm's site at Revenoor. http://revenoor.com/ Only good thing about that other still was that it had about the right production specs, though it didn't deliver on it: 5-7 gal/hour of 190-proof, just about right for biofuellers. It delivered about 3 gal/hour of 160-proof, IIRC. Apart from which the plans were chaotic, the list of materials even more chaotic, the instructions confused, and people sent their checks to that guy and received nothing. That Fuel ethanol FAQ is still in the archives, though I wouldn't mind if it somehow vanished. It was long ago removed from our site. --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/ASSHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fuel Ethanol Faq
I was also trawling the archive, and came upon this interesting piece on alcohol via other routes than fermentation/distillation, from Mark Radosevich of Standard Alcohol Company. Note the last paragraph, on lignocellulosic conversion - a bit of a damper. somewhat snipped To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: Mark Radosevich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:46:28 - Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Ethanol from Coal ??? Fischer-Tropsch conversion of synthesis gas to oxycarbon alcohols or into synfuel hydrocarbons (syn-gasoline, diesel, jet fuel) which is first made by coal gasification processes (invented back in 1917 by Hitler's synthetic fuels scientists) is probably the cheapest way I know of to produce methanol. And now, with improved FT reactor catalysts, synthetic ethanol and higher mixed alcohols including propanol, butanol, pentanol, hexanol, heptanol and 8-carbon octanol can be produced as well using coal as a cheap and abundant feedstock. Alternatively, pipeline methane or even society's garbage and sewer sludge utilized as bio-feedstocks work exceptionally well for the typical front end processes of steam reformation or gasification which typically drive this synthetic fuel technology. Synthesis gas is a mixture of three basic elements to include carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrocarbons (oils) are molecules containing Hydrogen Carbon. Oxycarbons (alcohols) simply add a third element Oxygen and become water soluble, thus biodegradable. New, higher powered bugs are responsible for breaking down green plant matter as a lignocellulosic conversion which then ferment and distill out more expensive ethanol than the traditional corn fermentation processes, --whether they be either wet or dried milling technologies. The lignocellulosic arena is excited and growing, but I don't hold out any hopes for its ultimate profitability. Too expensive and 90% of the light-weight porriages remaining must still be trucked and spread out over the lands as weak fertilizer. With corn fermentation, the remaining porriage is utilized as a high-grade food co-product, something that the U.S. ethanol lobby hasn't explained very well to average Americans. Best Regards, Mark Radosevich Standard Alcohol Company Durango, Colorado Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/ASSHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Fuel Ethanol Faq
I've always had the dream that a process like this could be profitable - or just feasible if you used all the 'waste' products for something, and produced all raw materials from other 'waste' products and highly abundant sources. i.e. energy from natural sources [water, wind, sun]. Almost makes me want to be a chemist. I found some interesting pages: Ethanol from cellulose, and a depiction of the worst case scenario: http://www.daviesand.com/Perspectives/Forest_Products/Ethanol/ Natural chemistry processes: http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/ -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:57 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Fuel Ethanol Faq I was also trawling the archive, and came upon this interesting piece on alcohol via other routes than fermentation/distillation, from Mark Radosevich of Standard Alcohol Company. Note the last paragraph, on lignocellulosic conversion - a bit of a damper. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fuel ethanol FAQ
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an initial FAQ. It'll grow fast. I'll post significant additions on the list and keep updated versions on the Journey to Forever website: http://jtforever.org/ethanol_faq.html and in the Files section at the list website: http://www.onelist.com/group/biofuel/ Fuel ethanol FAQ Version 1.0 Q. Where can I get plans for an ethanol still? A. Blueprints and instructions are available for an ethanol still that will make 5 gallons or more an hour of 180-proof ethanol on the first run, every run, and weighs only 28 lb. This is an advanced fourth-generation design. It is not a toy for making drinking alcohol: this is a serious tool for making your own fuel. The blueprints are available from the designer, Robert Warren, former founding director of the California Alcohol Fuel Producers Association, a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting alternatives to using petroleum fuels Association. Robert has constructed 131 working stills. His research on ethanol spans 20 years, and he is a founding member of this mailing list. He can be reached by email at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This FAQ is compiled from information supplied by Robert. See the Journey to Forever Website for more information: http://jtforever.org/ethanol_robert1.html Q. Can I make this still myself? A. Yes - if you are handy with copper plumbing tools and techniques. You'll find the blueprints to be quite thorough in helping you through all parts of assembly. The instructions are very precise and well drawn to show you the whole assembly process. But it does take an experienced hand to solder the pipes properly. The plans contain the complete list of materials, detailed drawings of the construction procedures, and some alternative methods of heating and running the still. It includes several pages describing how to adjust and run the still, with variations for different feedstocks and fuel sources. Q. How much do the blueprints cost? A. US$25 plus $3 for airmail postage. Allow up to four weeks for delivery because the blueprints have to be batch-printed - printing is the main cost and batch-printing keeps the price down. Q. How much will the still cost to build? A. It will cost you about $400 to $500 to build the still, or less if you're good at scavenging parts and components, such as hoses, etc. You can scavenge a lot of the other materials on the list, but if you want the still to work right, you need to build it exactly as shown on the blueprints. This is a fourth-generation design, and it is very efficient. You'll need 5 feet of 3-inch-diameter copper pipe, with various copper fittings as listed in the plans, costing around $125. The key piece of technology is the automatic temperature sensor/controller valve, which precisely regulates the optimum temperature for separation of condensed alcohol from the water vapors. This ensures consistent production of 180 proof ethanol. The valve costs up to $225. We're searching for a good and hopefully cheaper source for these. An old gas water heater can be cannibalized for the gas burner, if you want to use propane or natural gas to heat your boiler to run the beer through the still. Or you can make a wood burner out of some concrete blocks and an empty 55-gallon oil drum turned on its side. Use scrap wood for fuel. Q. How long will it take to build the still? A. I used to teach a still-building class over a two-day weekend, which included a full day of building and completing a still. It may take you a month or two just to get your components together, and then you can put it together in one good weekend. Invite a couple of handy friends over to help. The following weekend you'll want to have a still firing event with those same friends! Nothing makes you feel more self-reliant than running a car, motorcycle, or even a lawn mower on fuel you've made yourself! Q. What's the production rate? A. If you have ten gallons of beer at a 5% alcohol content (which is about what you get working with barley or wheat) you end up with a little over 0.5 gallons of high proof (0.05 x 10 gal / 0.9 = 0.55 gal of 180 proof). You can see that to be efficient you will want to start with a minimum of 100 gallons, hopefully at a 10% sugar concentration, to get 10 gallons of fuel. If you run it at full capacity (it is designed to handle a 500- gallon boiler), you can produce a little over 7 gallons per hour of 180 proof fuel. You can run two stills in parallel if you want 14 gallons per hour. Q. How much does it cost to produce 1 gallon of ethanol? A. If you do this on a large enough scale, it will cost about $1.10 to $1.20/gal to make the alcohol. You will also have animal feed by-products which you can sell to reduce the total cost to
