Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
Lee, Catalytic cracking is a rather involved chemical and mechanical process, conducted under high temp and quite often high pressure. Primary and co-products are extracted at different stages throughout the process, using multitudes of techniques. One look at a petrochemical facility and its multiple fractional distillation toweres should give you an idea that, no matter what scale the, in general the process is intensive in design. Which puts the process in general out of the hands of shadetree biodieselers. Mind you, working with a simple product containing but a handful of different esters would be far easier than a bbl of crude with its multitudinous co-products. But the intensity of the mechnics, processes and procedures would still be a hurdle. I'd say that you might care to pick up a loaf sourdough and a couple bottles of wine, then corner your favorite professor in chemistry for a little sit down chat. Talk is usually inexpensive. It's when you have to start buying all the stainless, valves, fittings and vessels and putting them together under the tutilege of a professional that the kroners start to add up. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking So then maybe building a solar cracking unit might be a option. What would be involved in cracking? Is it a just purely a heat process. Or are other factors involved? From the previous discussions it sounded like an involved process or can you run a calculation that gives you the right input and output yields? Appal Energy wrote: Lee, First thing? Utilize alcohols such as isopropanol and isobutyl rather than methanol. To what degree the process would need to be altered to achieve high conversion ratios isn't clear, but there would almost assuredly need to be some alterations. You could just fractionally distill the esters without any catalytic cracking. Shuttle your longer chain esters to southern climes and the shorter chains to northern climes. But if high energy inputs were put into a distillation effort, cracking would probably be included just to keep the cost/yield ratio low. One could also go the route that US DOD and NREL have toyed with, cryo-cooling the esters and separating them. Rumour has it that this type of experimentation was being done with biodiesel so that it could be used at high altitudes, where the reduced emissions from biodiesel would contribute to con-trail formation to a lesser degree than petroleum based fuels. Now if you were to ask me what I would personally do to reduce the gel point, it would be one of two things. The first is absolutely nothing,modifiying the system to accomodate that particular weak point of the fuel. Such modifications would include the usual tank heater with a few mods to forward heat to the injectors and pump, a two tank system (one being but a liter or two for fossil diesel) and fuel heating systems that utilize both exhaust and coolant as the heating mediums. It's not uncommon in my experience to push the nose of a vehicle or plane under a tent flap, where a well vented pot belly stove is stoked all night. (Nights can get kinda' long north of the Goldstream Valley.) A few simple mods to accomodate biodiesel would be of considerably less overall effort. Granted...neither approach is as turn key as society has come to expect. The second approach would be to start working with alternative alcohols. But even then, zero and sub-zero conditions (*F) would still prove quite problematic. The idea of distillation and cracking is not at all attractive from an energy inputs perspective, but would probably become the approach of choice using centralized mega-facilities, rather than micro. One problem there would be that the fuel is only seasonal, which would force such a facility to distill and store fuel in advance or leave the facility without any functional purpose relative to biodiesel ~one-half of each year. I don't think you'll see Appal going that route unless we could implement solar concentrators. Rather, we'll probably stay in the right hand lane and keep travelling 55, getting wherever everyone else goes in just about the same time and style. Todd Swearingen Appal Energy - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking Todd Swearingen so what can be done to bio-diesel to lower the gel point? I know that adding gasoline to diesel in winter is done by some to stop diesel gelling in winters lower temperatures. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
In upstate NY, kero and diesel are sold side-by-side in most stations. Use to work for a trucking company. Saw a few engines die because of gasoline additions. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking Well I have not seen kerosene at truck stops. When you travel north from the south and you heading or in subzero weather. Just no that many places to pull a semi in to keep it warm or heat it backup. Steve Spence wrote: not by intelligent diesel owners. the logical choice is kerosene. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking Todd Swearingen so what can be done to bio-diesel to lower the gel point? I know that adding gasoline to diesel in winter is done by some to stop diesel gelling in winters lower temperatures. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
So then maybe building a solar cracking unit might be a option. What would be involved in cracking? Is it a just purely a heat process. Or are other factors involved? From the previous discussions it sounded like an involved process or can you run a calculation that gives you the right input and output yields? Appal Energy wrote: Lee, First thing? Utilize alcohols such as isopropanol and isobutyl rather than methanol. To what degree the process would need to be altered to achieve high conversion ratios isn't clear, but there would almost assuredly need to be some alterations. You could just fractionally distill the esters without any catalytic cracking. Shuttle your longer chain esters to southern climes and the shorter chains to northern climes. But if high energy inputs were put into a distillation effort, cracking would probably be included just to keep the cost/yield ratio low. One could also go the route that US DOD and NREL have toyed with, cryo-cooling the esters and separating them. Rumour has it that this type of experimentation was being done with biodiesel so that it could be used at high altitudes, where the reduced emissions from biodiesel would contribute to con-trail formation to a lesser degree than petroleum based fuels. Now if you were to ask me what I would personally do to reduce the gel point, it would be one of two things. The first is absolutely nothing,modifiying the system to accomodate that particular weak point of the fuel. Such modifications would include the usual tank heater with a few mods to forward heat to the injectors and pump, a two tank system (one being but a liter or two for fossil diesel) and fuel heating systems that utilize both exhaust and coolant as the heating mediums. It's not uncommon in my experience to push the nose of a vehicle or plane under a tent flap, where a well vented pot belly stove is stoked all night. (Nights can get kinda' long north of the Goldstream Valley.) A few simple mods to accomodate biodiesel would be of considerably less overall effort. Granted...neither approach is as turn key as society has come to expect. The second approach would be to start working with alternative alcohols. But even then, zero and sub-zero conditions (*F) would still prove quite problematic. The idea of distillation and cracking is not at all attractive from an energy inputs perspective, but would probably become the approach of choice using centralized mega-facilities, rather than micro. One problem there would be that the fuel is only seasonal, which would force such a facility to distill and store fuel in advance or leave the facility without any functional purpose relative to biodiesel ~one-half of each year. I don't think you'll see Appal going that route unless we could implement solar concentrators. Rather, we'll probably stay in the right hand lane and keep travelling 55, getting wherever everyone else goes in just about the same time and style. Todd Swearingen Appal Energy - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking Todd Swearingen so what can be done to bio-diesel to lower the gel point? I know that adding gasoline to diesel in winter is done by some to stop diesel gelling in winters lower temperatures. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
Well I have not seen kerosene at truck stops. When you travel north from the south and you heading or in subzero weather. Just no that many places to pull a semi in to keep it warm or heat it backup. Steve Spence wrote: not by intelligent diesel owners. the logical choice is kerosene. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking Todd Swearingen so what can be done to bio-diesel to lower the gel point? I know that adding gasoline to diesel in winter is done by some to stop diesel gelling in winters lower temperatures. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
Todd Swearingen so what can be done to bio-diesel to lower the gel point? I know that adding gasoline to diesel in winter is done by some to stop diesel gelling in winters lower temperatures. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
Lee, First thing? Utilize alcohols such as isopropanol and isobutyl rather than methanol. To what degree the process would need to be altered to achieve high conversion ratios isn't clear, but there would almost assuredly need to be some alterations. You could just fractionally distill the esters without any catalytic cracking. Shuttle your longer chain esters to southern climes and the shorter chains to northern climes. But if high energy inputs were put into a distillation effort, cracking would probably be included just to keep the cost/yield ratio low. One could also go the route that US DOD and NREL have toyed with, cryo-cooling the esters and separating them. Rumour has it that this type of experimentation was being done with biodiesel so that it could be used at high altitudes, where the reduced emissions from biodiesel would contribute to con-trail formation to a lesser degree than petroleum based fuels. Now if you were to ask me what I would personally do to reduce the gel point, it would be one of two things. The first is absolutely nothing,modifiying the system to accomodate that particular weak point of the fuel. Such modifications would include the usual tank heater with a few mods to forward heat to the injectors and pump, a two tank system (one being but a liter or two for fossil diesel) and fuel heating systems that utilize both exhaust and coolant as the heating mediums. It's not uncommon in my experience to push the nose of a vehicle or plane under a tent flap, where a well vented pot belly stove is stoked all night. (Nights can get kinda' long north of the Goldstream Valley.) A few simple mods to accomodate biodiesel would be of considerably less overall effort. Granted...neither approach is as turn key as society has come to expect. The second approach would be to start working with alternative alcohols. But even then, zero and sub-zero conditions (*F) would still prove quite problematic. The idea of distillation and cracking is not at all attractive from an energy inputs perspective, but would probably become the approach of choice using centralized mega-facilities, rather than micro. One problem there would be that the fuel is only seasonal, which would force such a facility to distill and store fuel in advance or leave the facility without any functional purpose relative to biodiesel ~one-half of each year. I don't think you'll see Appal going that route unless we could implement solar concentrators. Rather, we'll probably stay in the right hand lane and keep travelling 55, getting wherever everyone else goes in just about the same time and style. Todd Swearingen Appal Energy - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking Todd Swearingen so what can be done to bio-diesel to lower the gel point? I know that adding gasoline to diesel in winter is done by some to stop diesel gelling in winters lower temperatures. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1Sect2=HITOFFd=PAL Lp=1u=/netahtml/srchnum.htmr=1f=Gl=50s1='5,713,965'.WKU.OS=PN/5 ,713,965RS=PN/5,713,965 United States Patent: 5,713,965 ( 1 of 1 ) United States Patent5,713,965 Foglia , et al. February 3, 1998 Production of biodiesel, lubricants and fuel and lubricant additives Abstract A method is described which utilizes lipases to transesterify triglyceride-containing substances and to esterify free fatty acids to alkyl esters using short chain alcohols. The alkyl esters are useful as alternatives or additives to automotive fuels and lubricants. The method is particularly advantageous because it utilizes inexpensive feedstocks such as animal fats, vegetable oils, rendered fats and restaurant grease as substrates. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
not by intelligent diesel owners. the logical choice is kerosene. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking Todd Swearingen so what can be done to bio-diesel to lower the gel point? I know that adding gasoline to diesel in winter is done by some to stop diesel gelling in winters lower temperatures. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
Well not being a chemical engineer. What would change or could change the Gel point of bio-diesel? So is an cracking unit a heat process where layers of different of product are produced? If you can build a small reactor that would use waist products for heat to drive the process? Would you know where I could find plans of a reactor that could produce the right end product? The main reason for my question is to come up with bio-diesel that wont gel in winter or match the petro diesel gel point. Appal Energy wrote: Lee, One would think that a chemical engineer with specific training in the petro-chemical field could clue you in. The first low tech improvement would be to hydrogenate the ester, cracking any double bonds using moderate pressure, elevated temp and sufficient time. Hydrogenation would be easier to conduct after the esterification/transesterification rather than on the parent feedstock It would also slightly lower the viscosity by an imperceptible amount. And as for catalytic cracking, I would wonder exactly what controls would have to be in place to secure a maximum carbon chain length and what would be the ratios of co-products of shorter lengths. That degree of intensity would probably give cause for moving towards centralized production and away from micro-regional, as the process surely would warrant larger volumes in order to be economically and energy efficient. Something to be said for the simplicity of an acid/base reaction, with perhaps the improvement of but hydrogenation. Both a high pressure esterification and the hydrogenation could feasibly be conducted in a universal reactor. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:00 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Cracking On the subject of carbon changes and temperature. Couldn't the oil be run though a cracking unit to get the right carbon chain length. So that the diesel would gel at a lower temperature. What would be involved in building a unit that would handle 50 to 100 gallons at a time? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
Lee, Fossil fuel cracking, generally combined with fractional distillation, is most often conducted under high temp and pressure, under rigid conditions that can be manipulated to derive the desired ratio of any given products. One of the tricks is to balance the energy/economic inputs with the product outputs so as the process is the most efficient, either from the perspective of inputs or outputs depending upon the need. If a person were less worried about economic efficiency and wanted or needed to focus strictly on maximizing one product or another, the inputs can be altered towards that side of an equation. Still, there would be co-products. Either markets already exist for whatever these co-products are or would have to be created in order to keep them from becoming part of the waste stream. (Much like coal tar used to be a part of the waste stream. Now it is the primary constituent of the asphalt industy. Inert, they proclaim it to be. So inert that the aromatic hydrocarbons slowly evaporate and run off and it has to be resurfaced or recycled on a regular basis. But that's another story. ) And yupper. The waste products probably could be used for process heat,depending upon their emissions which may or may not be regulated. As for actually conducting the process? or plans for a reactor? You or anyone would be almost entirely dependant upon the expertise of a chemical engineer who can scratch out the parameters and mechanics for creating the end product you wish. That's why I suggested and we're experimenting with simple processes such as hydrogenation and HTP esterification - single end-product reactions. These can be conducted in a small system with relative ease and safety without requiring too much technical input, using the same vessel for either process. Mind you that this is not to suggest that a hydrogenation reaction should be conducted in a zero lot line subdivision in one's garage, as sooner or later some yeah hoo would attempt to use direct flame heat in a system and blow the garage apart with a hydrogen explosion. !! ___B-O-O-M !!! In any event, these processes only improve total ester yields and increase the energy content (hydrogenation breaks double bonds). You would still be left with a fuel that has a higher gel point than D-1 or D-2, running about 13.77 carbons. Rapeseed methyl ester has an average carbon chain length of ~19.96 while soybean methyl ester averages ~16.16. It would be interesting to get viscosity stats of these and other methyl esters, including those derived strictly from isolated fatty acids, for comparison of cloud points. The following are the chemical formulas of the primary fatty acids that are constituents of parent oils. Butyric - C4H8O2 Caproic - C6H12O2 Capric - C10H20O2 Lauric - C12H24O2 Myristic - C14H28O2 Palmitic - C16H32O2 Linoleic -C18H32O2 Linolenic - C18H_O_ Oleic - C18H34O2 Stearic - C18H36O2 Ricinoleic - C18H34O3 Eruicic - C22H42O2 Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking Well not being a chemical engineer. What would change or could change the Gel point of bio-diesel? So is an cracking unit a heat process where layers of different of product are produced? If you can build a small reactor that would use waist products for heat to drive the process? Would you know where I could find plans of a reactor that could produce the right end product? The main reason for my question is to come up with bio-diesel that wont gel in winter or match the petro diesel gel point. Appal Energy wrote: Lee, One would think that a chemical engineer with specific training in the petro-chemical field could clue you in. The first low tech improvement would be to hydrogenate the ester, cracking any double bonds using moderate pressure, elevated temp and sufficient time. Hydrogenation would be easier to conduct after the esterification/transesterification rather than on the parent feedstock It would also slightly lower the viscosity by an imperceptible amount. And as for catalytic cracking, I would wonder exactly what controls would have to be in place to secure a maximum carbon chain length and what would be the ratios of co-products of shorter lengths. That degree of intensity would probably give cause for moving towards centralized production and away from micro-regional, as the process surely would warrant larger volumes in order to be economically and energy efficient. Something to be said for the simplicity of an acid/base reaction, with perhaps the improvement of but hydrogenation. Both a high pressure esterification and the hydrogenation could feasibly be conducted in a universal reactor. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday
Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking
Lee, One would think that a chemical engineer with specific training in the petro-chemical field could clue you in. The first low tech improvement would be to hydrogenate the ester, cracking any double bonds using moderate pressure, elevated temp and sufficient time. Hydrogenation would be easier to conduct after the esterification/transesterification rather than on the parent feedstock It would also slightly lower the viscosity by an imperceptible amount. And as for catalytic cracking, I would wonder exactly what controls would have to be in place to secure a maximum carbon chain length and what would be the ratios of co-products of shorter lengths. That degree of intensity would probably give cause for moving towards centralized production and away from micro-regional, as the process surely would warrant larger volumes in order to be economically and energy efficient. Something to be said for the simplicity of an acid/base reaction, with perhaps the improvement of but hydrogenation. Both a high pressure esterification and the hydrogenation could feasibly be conducted in a universal reactor. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 4:00 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Cracking On the subject of carbon changes and temperature. Couldn't the oil be run though a cracking unit to get the right carbon chain length. So that the diesel would gel at a lower temperature. What would be involved in building a unit that would handle 50 to 100 gallons at a time? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Cracking
On the subject of carbon changes and temperature. Couldn't the oil be run though a cracking unit to get the right carbon chain length. So that the diesel would gel at a lower temperature. What would be involved in building a unit that would handle 50 to 100 gallons at a time? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
