Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
There is a safe way of using nitroglycerin, but I would say that nitroglycerine is not a toy. Don't play with it and leave the use of it to professionals. Metvriendelijke groet,Pieter KooleOriginal Message - From: r To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using what is called "explosion propulsion". Exploding fuel pushes against pistons which are linked to a shaft, which is linked to the transmission. There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The chemical kinetics of fire is not understood very well. Smoking a cigarette will produce thousands of intermediate radicals, which will lead to thousands of end products, many of which are harmful. Altering temperature and other variables will lead to different end products. So unless you have empirical evidence on a specific substance, it's hard to know what is going to happen. I know people do burn it as a fuel, but I wouldn't recommend doing it in your kitchen, for instance. R Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all,I am considering the use of my glycerol coproduct as a burner fuel for process heat generation (indirect via boiler).My glycerol generated while running 20% methanol is of very low viscosity (mostly likely due to the excess methanol), and seems quite usable. This may be more advantageous than recover when heating large batches.I have been searching for emissions information on this, as I have heard that toxic acrolein is produced.when glycerin is burnt at temps below 1800degF. (I have heard this about WVO/SVO usage as well).My question is how much?...as acrolein is also produced burning gasoline, diesel, and cigarettes.It seems that if the amount of acrolein produced by burning the gylerol waste is LESS than the amount that would be produced by burning the amount of petro diesel that is offset by the biodiesel..then net amount of acrolein is still a reduction, and hence acceptable.Any data out there?Any chemists out there who may be able to calculate an approximation?Molecular formula C3H4O (..that's little 3, little 4)-Rob..Info on Acrolein:Acrolein is principally used as a chemical intermediate in the production of acrylic acid and itsesters. Acrolein is used directly as an aquatic herbicide and algicide in irrigation canals, as amicrobiocide in oil wells, liquid hydrocarbon fuels, cooling-water towers and water treatmentponds, and as a slimicide in the manufacture of paper (IARC, 1985). Combustion of fossil fuels,tobacco smoke, and pyrolyzed animal and vegetable fats contribute to the environmentalprevalence of acrolein (IARC, 1985). Acrolein is a byproduct of fires and is one of several acutetoxicants which firefighters must endure. It is also formed from atmospheric reactions of 1,3-butadiene. The annual statewide industrial emissions from facilities reporting under the AirToxics Hot Spots Act in California based on the most recent inventory were estimated to be54,565 pounds of acrolein (CARB, 2000).CHRONIC TOXICITY SUMMARYACROLEIN (2-propenal, acraldehyde, allyl aldehyde, acryl aldehyde)CAS Registry Number: 107-02-8I. Chronic Toxicity SummaryInhalation reference exposure level 0.06 mg/m3 (0.03 ppb)Critical effect(s) Histological changes in nasal epithelium in ratsHazard index target(s) Respiratory system; eyesII. Physical and Chemical Properties (HSDB, 1995)Description Colorless or yellow liquid with piercing,disagreeable odorMolecular formula C3H4O (oops..thats litte 3, little 4)Molecular weight 56.1 g/molDensity 0.843 g/cm3 @ 20°CBoiling point 53°CMelting point -88°CVapor pressure 220 torr @ 20°COdor threshold 160 ppb (370 mg/m3)(Amoore and Hautala, 1983)Solubility Soluble in ethanol, diethyl ether, and up to 20% w/v in waterConversion factor 1 ppm = 2.3 mg/m3 @ 25° C ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel ma
RE: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. Nitro-glycerine is a high explosive; the shock wave expands faster than the speed of sound. Not a good idea inside an enclosed space. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.1/51 - Release Date: 18/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
Great. NOW you tell me. Chris Lloyd wrote: How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. Nitro-glycerine is a high explosive; the shock wave expands faster than the speed of sound. Not a good idea inside an enclosed space. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.1/51 - Release Date: 18/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
Nitrogen is not explosive, infact it is used as a non flamable protective gas where oxidation is to be prevented. I'm no expert but I think nitroglycerin is produced by the action of nitric acid on glycerin. This is a very dangerous experiment to mess with. Really has nothing to do with internal combustion engines. Chris Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/19/2005 07:58 AM Please respond to Biofuel To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org cc: Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. Nitro-glycerine is a high explosive; the shock wave expands faster than the speed of sound. Not a good idea inside an enclosed space. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.1/51 - Release Date: 18/07/2005___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
Hi Rob ok so this thread has drifted quite far from my original inquiry. Sorry about that. I was looking for specific, or even close estimates, of the acrolein emissions from glycerol burning in an open flame boiler/burner unit..not for its use as a motor fuel, or its combination with nitrogen. Depending on the temperature, the thermal degradation of vegetable oils is a polymerisation (200-300 °C), a degradation of vegetable oils into acrolein, ketene, fatty acids then formation of alcanes, alcenes above 300 °C and finally a formation of a gas-liquid mixture from around 500 °C up. -- ACREVO study: http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm BioMatNet Item: FAIR-CT95-0627 - Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) Lower temperature of combustion, more acrolein. It needs higher temps than 500 deg C to burn the by-product anyway. you can burn the glycerin portion, and the excess methanol if you haven't removed it, but the burner soon gunks up with black and horribly abused but unburnt soap. I haven't managed to get full clean combustion at about 700 deg C and it may have been higher than that. Michael Allen reckons it needs 1,000 deg C and five seconds' residence time, and maybe pre-heating and atomization too I thought. We've been finding good solutions for by-product use, and good solutions for burners as well, though we haven't given up yet on burning the by-product. How are you planning to burn it? Best wishes Keith -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
Thanks Keith, Well I have a few thoughts on the burning... I WAS hoping I could burn it in a Turk style (perhaps scaled up) burner, to heat water for various process uses..but I am concerned with the emissions... Another idea is to offload it to someone already in the pollution business (just kidding) I have a customer who burns around 4000gal/wk of waste motor oil in a large open flame jet burner. My thought was for him to use my by-product blended with his waste oil. This by-product would end up at a blend level no higher than 10%glycerol to 90% motor oil, and hence reduce his fuel costs by around 10% The goal of using it as a BTU additive to other biomass in a biomass gasifier seems the best end use, but of course, these units are quite expensive. In this case the temp of combustion is up around 1800degF..and emissions are not much of an issue. Thanks, Rob Depending on the temperature, the thermal degradation of vegetable oils is a polymerisation (200-300 °C), a degradation of vegetable oils into acrolein, ketene, fatty acids then formation of alcanes, alcenes above 300 °C and finally a formation of a gas-liquid mixture from around 500 °C up. -- ACREVO study: http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm BioMatNet Item: FAIR-CT95-0627 - Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) Lower temperature of combustion, more acrolein. It needs higher temps than 500 deg C to burn the by-product anyway. you can burn the glycerin portion, and the excess methanol if you haven't removed it, but the burner soon gunks up with black and horribly abused but unburnt soap. I haven't managed to get full clean combustion at about 700 deg C and it may have been higher than that. Michael Allen reckons it needs 1,000 deg C and five seconds' residence time, and maybe pre-heating and atomization too I thought. We've been finding good solutions for by-product use, and good solutions for burners as well, though we haven't given up yet on burning the by-product. How are you planning to burn it? Best wishes Keith -Rob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
LOL all jokes aside, though, that's actually an interesting idea. if it were possible to keep the N and glycerine separate, and inject them into the cylinder where they would combine, then explode. . . . of course, there's the question of how energy efficient this would be (i'm assuming it would be pretty efficient since nitroglycerine is so extremely explosive). and what emissions would be like. and whether creating nitroglycerine is as easy and simple as that in the first place. It's easy to create but it's almost impossible to control. I really, really hope this discussion is going to remain entirely hypothetical!!! There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin. Only in the form of dynamite it seems. Safe as dynamite, LOL! High-explosives The most earth-shattering use of glycerine remains that discovered by Italian chemist Ascanio Sobrero 150 years ago when he subjected it to nitration to make the world's first real high-explosive, nitroglycerin, one of the most dangerous substances ever concocted. Sobrero's face was badly scarred in an explosion during an early experiment. He said nitroglycerin was so dangerous it was useless, and it had killed so many people he was ashamed to be its discoverer. But Swedish chemist Alfred Nobel set about mass-producing the stuff, in spite of several explosions -- one of which killed his brother. Nobel discovered that nitroglycerin could be mixed with silica (diatomaceous earth) to form a stable high-explosive which he called dynamite. It made him one of the richest men of the age. Nitroglycerin is extremely powerful. A mere 10 ml will expand 10,000 times into 100 litres of gas at an explosive velocity of 7,700 metres per second (17,224 miles per hour) -- more powerful than TNT. It's easy to find recipes for nitroglycerin. You mix deadly compounds like sulphuric acid and nitric acid with the glycerine and unless you can control the following runaway reaction it explodes in your face. Most formulas carry warnings like these: Caution: Nitroglycerin is extremely sensitive to decomposition, heating, dropping, or jarring, and may explode even if left undisturbed and cool. Caution: Nitroglycerin has the capacity to sense when a stupid or clumsy person is around and, if given a chance, it will try to kill him. Caution: This formula assumes that the maker has no qualms about killing his/her self in the process. These cautions are VERY well-founded! Every now and then newspapers rediscover these resources on the World Wide Web and set up a hue-and-cry for Internet censorship, claiming it promotes terrorism, but any terrorist worth his Semtex knows better than these amateurish offerings. Anyway these things have been around much longer than the Internet. We found a nitroglycerin recipe in a general how-to book published more than a century ago, along with a dozen other explosives, including dynamite. Did Civilization-As-We-Know-It survive? It's hard to tell! -- From: Glycerine http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html Best wishes for a long, safe, happy and intact future. Keith -chris In a message dated 7/17/05 2:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using what is called explosion propulsion. Exploding fuel pushes against pistons which are linked to a shaft, which is linked to the transmission. There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
How about using nitrox, as in used in recreational diving? I suppose that there is a need for energy to combine the nitrogen with the glycerin, to make the chemical reaction happen. Maybe carry 2 tanks (one of glycerin and one of nitrox)? There might be a pre-combustion chamber where a spark would be set to the glycerin/nitrox mixture, to create the nitroglycerin, then the nitroglycerin would be sent to the engine to be burned. Would the design be feasible and realistic? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LOL all jokes aside, though, that's actually an interesting idea. if it were possible to keep the N and glycerine separate, and inject them into the cylinder where they would combine, then explode. . . . of course, there's the question of how energy efficient this would be (i'm assuming it would be pretty efficient since nitroglycerine is so extremely explosive). and what emissions would be like. and whether creating nitroglycerine is as easy and simple as that in the first place. It's easy to create but it's almost impossible to control. I really, really hope this discussion is going to remain entirely hypothetical!!! There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin. Only in the form of dynamite it seems. Safe as dynamite, LOL! High-explosives The most earth-shattering use of glycerine remains that discovered by Italian chemist Ascanio Sobrero 150 years ago when he subjected it to nitration to make the world's first real high-explosive, nitroglycerin, one of the most dangerous substances ever concocted. Sobrero's face was badly scarred in an explosion during an early experiment. He said nitroglycerin was so dangerous it was useless, and it had killed so many people he was ashamed to be its discoverer. But Swedish chemist Alfred Nobel set about mass-producing the stuff, in spite of several explosions -- one of which killed his brother. Nobel discovered that nitroglycerin could be mixed with silica (diatomaceous earth) to form a stable high-explosive which he called dynamite. It made him one of the richest men of the age. Nitroglycerin is extremely powerful. A mere 10 ml will expand 10,000 times into 100 litres of gas at an explosive velocity of 7,700 metres per second (17,224 miles per hour) -- more powerful than TNT. It's easy to find recipes for nitroglycerin. You mix deadly compounds like sulphuric acid and nitric acid with the glycerine and unless you can control the following runaway reaction it explodes in your face. Most formulas carry warnings like these: Caution: Nitroglycerin is extremely sensitive to decomposition, heating, dropping, or jarring, and may explode even if left undisturbed and cool. Caution: Nitroglycerin has the capacity to sense when a stupid or clumsy person is around and, if given a chance, it will try to kill him. Caution: This formula assumes that the maker has no qualms about killing his/her self in the process. These cautions are VERY well-founded! Every now and then newspapers rediscover these resources on the World Wide Web and set up a hue-and-cry for Internet censorship, claiming it promotes terrorism, but any terrorist worth his Semtex knows better than these amateurish offerings. Anyway these things have been around much longer than the Internet. We found a nitroglycerin recipe in a general how-to book published more than a century ago, along with a dozen other explosives, including dynamite. Did Civilization-As-We-Know-It survive? It's hard to tell! -- From: Glycerine http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html Best wishes for a long, safe, happy and intact future. Keith -chris In a message dated 7/17/05 2:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using what is called explosion propulsion. Exploding fuel pushes against pistons which are linked to a shaft, which is linked to the transmission. There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
Who knows, I might be right next to you. ;-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: r wrote: How about using nitrox, nope, it won't work. Nitrox is just a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen with more oxygen than a normal atmosphere. to make nitroglycerin (actually easy) one need only combine fuming nitric, fuming sulfuric, and glycerin in the correct proportions, while keeping the whole lot cool. Just let me know when you are going to do it so I can several miles away. In reality it is a very, very dangerous process. As I recall it was Alfred Nobels brother who was killed by a nitroglycerin explosion which inspired him to invent dynamite (nitroglycerin + sawdust or a similar dispersant) You could use nitromethane (liquid) or nitrous oxide (gas) but that doesn't get to the point of using the glycerin. I am going to try taking the glycerin and esterifying it with short chain fatty acids such that I come up with a molecule with about the same mol wt as the FAMEs. For example one could make tributyl glycerate and it should have the same viscoity and vapor pressure as FAME. The only problem is that the energy content is lower still than FAME which is slightly lower than fossil diesel. as in used in recreational diving? I suppose that there is a need for energy to combine the nitrogen with the glycerin, to make the chemical reaction happen. Maybe carry 2 tanks (one of glycerin and one of nitrox)? There might be a pre-combustion chamber where a spark would be set to the glycerin/nitrox mixture, to create the nitroglycerin, then the nitroglycerin would be sent to the engine to be burned. Would the design be feasible and realistic? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
hi rich. i'm not a chemist or engineer. anything beyond the very general and hypothetical comments i made previously are beyond me. this line of inquiry raises so many questions which i really don't consider myself competent to comment on (and therefore didn't). keith is right about how volatile and dangerous nitro is. you can't store nitro on board and expect to keep it stable. surely a spontaneous explosion of the nitro while still in the reaction chamber would be inevitable. i think more of a binary fuel-type approach would be called for. thus my suggestion of synthesis and combustion in the same chamber (i.e. the cylinder). and again, i wouldn't know how to guage the feasibility or practicality of this. after all, depending on the engine, we're talking about maintaining anywhere from about 10-20 on up to 50-60 reaction/combustion cycles per cylinder per second under normal operating conditions. -chris b. In a message dated 7/18/05 10:04:06 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There might be a pre-combustion chamber where a spark would be set to the glycerin/nitrox mixture, to create the nitroglycerin, then the nitroglycerin would be sent to the engine to be burned. Would the design be feasible and realistic? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
ok so this thread has drifted quite far from my original inquiry. I was looking for specific, or even close estimates, of the acrolein emissions from glycerol burning in an open flame boiler/burner unit..not for its use as a motor fuel, or its combination with nitrogen. -Rob At 01:58 PM 7/18/2005, you wrote: Who knows, I might be right next to you. ;-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: r wrote: How about using nitrox, nope, it won't work. Nitrox is just a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen with more oxygen than a normal atmosphere. to make nitroglycerin (actually easy) one need only combine fuming nitric, fuming sulfuric, and glycerin in the correct proportions, while keeping the whole lot cool. Just let me know when you are going to do it so I can several miles away. In reality it is a very, very dangerous process. As I recall it was Alfred Nobels brother who was killed by a nitroglycerin explosion which inspired him to invent dynamite (nitroglycerin + sawdust or a similar dispersant) You could use nitromethane (liquid) or nitrous oxide (gas) but that doesn't get to the point of using the glycerin. I am going to try taking the glycerin and esterifying it with short chain fatty acids such that I come up with a molecule with about the same mol wt as the FAMEs. For example one could make tributyl glycerate and it should have the same viscoity and vapor pressure as FAME. The only problem is that the energy content is lower still than FAME which is slightly lower than fossil diesel. as in used in recreational diving? I suppose that there is a need for energy to combine the nitrogen with the glycerin, to make the chemical reaction happen. Maybe carry 2 tanks (one of glycerin and one of nitrox)? There might be a pre-combustion chamber where a spark would be set to the glycerin/nitrox mixture, to create the nitroglycerin, then the nitroglycerin would be sent to the engine to be burned. Would the design be feasible and realistic? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
r wrote: How about using nitrox, nope, it won't work. Nitrox is just a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen with more oxygen than a normal atmosphere. to make nitroglycerin (actually easy) one need only combine fuming nitric, fuming sulfuric, and glycerin in the correct proportions, while keeping the whole lot cool. Just let me know when you are going to do it so I can several miles away. In reality it is a very, very dangerous process. As I recall it was Alfred Nobels brother who was killed by a nitroglycerin explosion which inspired him to invent dynamite (nitroglycerin + sawdust or a similar dispersant) You could use nitromethane (liquid) or nitrous oxide (gas) but that doesn't get to the point of using the glycerin. I am going to try taking the glycerin and esterifying it with short chain fatty acids such that I come up with a molecule with about the same mol wt as the FAMEs. For example one could make tributyl glycerate and it should have the same viscoity and vapor pressure as FAME. The only problem is that the energy content is lower still than FAME which is slightly lower than fossil diesel. as in used in recreational diving? I suppose that there is a need for energy to combine the nitrogen with the glycerin, to make the chemical reaction happen. Maybe carry 2 tanks (one of glycerin and one of nitrox)? There might be a pre-combustion chamber where a spark would be set to the glycerin/nitrox mixture, to create the nitroglycerin, then the nitroglycerin would be sent to the engine to be burned. Would the design be feasible and realistic? -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
The chemical kinetics of fire is not understood very well. Smoking a cigarette will produce thousands of intermediate radicals, which will lead to thousands of end products, many of which are harmful. Altering temperature and other variables will lead to different end products. So unless you have empirical evidence on a specific substance, it's hard to know what is going to happen. I know people do burn it as a fuel, but I wouldn't recommend doing it in your kitchen, for instance. R Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all,I am considering the use of my glycerol coproduct as a burner fuel for process heat generation (indirect via boiler).My glycerol generated while running 20% methanol is of very low viscosity (mostly likely due to the excess methanol), and seems quite usable. This may be more advantageous than recover when heating large batches.I have been searching for emissions information on this, as I have heard that toxic acrolein is produced.when glycerin is burnt at temps below 1800degF. (I have heard this about WVO/SVO usage as well).My question is how much?...as acrolein is also produced burning gasoline, diesel, and cigarettes.It seems that if the amount of acrolein produced by burning the gylerol waste is LESS than the amount that would be produced by burning the amount of petro diesel that is offset by the biodiesel..then net amount of acrolein is still a reduction, and hence acceptable.Any data out there?Any chemists out there who may be able to calculate an approximation?Molecular formula C3H4O (..that's little 3, little 4)-Rob..Info on Acrolein:Acrolein is principally used as a chemical intermediate in the production of acrylic acid and itsesters. Acrolein is used directly as an aquatic herbicide and algicide in irrigation canals, as amicrobiocide in oil wells, liquid hydrocarbon fuels, cooling-water towers and water treatmentponds, and as a slimicide in the manufacture of paper (IARC, 1985). Combustion of fossil fuels,tobacco smoke, and pyrolyzed animal and vegetable fats contribute to the environmentalprevalence of acrolein (IARC, 1985). Acrolein is a byproduct of fires and is one of several acutetoxicants which firefighters must endure. It is also formed from atmospheric reactions of 1,3-butadiene. The annual statewide industrial emissions from facilities reporting under the AirToxics Hot Spots Act in California based on the most recent inventory were estimated to be54,565 pounds of acrolein (CARB, 2000).CHRONIC TOXICITY SUMMARYACROLEIN (2-propenal, acraldehyde, allyl aldehyde, acryl aldehyde)CAS Registry Number: 107-02-8I. Chronic Toxicity SummaryInhalation reference exposure level 0.06 mg/m3 (0.03 ppb)Critical effect(s) Histological changes in nasal epithelium in ratsHazard index target(s) Respiratory system; eyesII. Physical and Chemical Properties (HSDB, 1995)Description Colorless or yellow liquid with piercing,disagreeable odorMolecular formula C3H4O (oops..thats litte 3, little 4)Molecular weight 56.1 g/molDensity 0.843 g/cm3 @ 20°CBoiling point 53°CMelting point -88°CVapor pressure 220 torr @ 20°COdor threshold 160 ppb (370 mg/m3)(Amoore and Hautala, 1983)Solubility Soluble in ethanol, diethyl ether, and up to 20% w/v in waterConversion factor 1 ppm = 2.3 mg/m3 @ 25° C ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using what is called "explosion propulsion". Exploding fuel pushes against pistons which are linked to a shaft, which is linked to the transmission. There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The chemical kinetics of fire is not understood very well. Smoking a cigarette will produce thousands of intermediate radicals, which will lead to thousands of end products, many of which are harmful. Altering temperature and other variables will lead to different end products. So unless you have empirical evidence on a specific substance, it's hard to know what is going to happen. I know people do burn it as a fuel, but I wouldn't recommend doing it in your kitchen, for instance. R Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, I am considering the use of my glycerol coproduct as a burner fuel for process heat generation (indirect via boiler). My glycerol generated while running 20% methanol is of very low viscosity (mostly likely due to the excess methanol), and seems quite usable. This may be more advantageous than recover when heating large batches. I have been searching for emissions information on this, as I have heard that toxic acrolein is produced.when glycerin is burnt at temps below 1800degF. (I have heard this about WVO/SVO usage as well). My question is how much?...as acrolein is also produced burning gasoline, diesel, and cigarettes. It seems that if the amount of acrolein produced by burning the gylerol waste is LESS than the amount that would be produced by burning the amount of petro diesel that is offset by the biodiesel..then net amount of acrolein is still a reduction, and hence acceptable. Any data out there? Any chemists out there who may be able to calculate an approximation? Molecular formula C3H4O (..that's little 3, little 4) -Rob .. Info on Acrolein: Acrolein is principally used as a chemical intermediate in the production of acrylic acid and its esters. Acrolein is used directly as an aquatic herbicide and algicide in irrigation canals, as a microbiocide in oil wells, liquid hydrocarbon fuels, cooling-water towers and water treatment ponds, and as a slimicide in the manufacture of paper (IARC, 1985). Combustion of fossil fuels, tobacco smoke, and pyrolyzed animal and vegetable fats contribute to the environmental prevalence of acrolein (IARC, 1985). Acrolein is a byproduct of fires and is one of several acute toxicants which firefighters must endure. It is also formed from atmospheric reactions of 1,3- butadiene. The annual statewide industrial emissions from facilities reporting under the Air Toxics Hot Spots Act in California based on the most recent inventory were estimated to be 54,565 pounds of acrolein (CARB, 2000). CHRONIC TOXICITY SUMMARY ACROLEIN (2-propenal, acraldehyde, allyl aldehyde, acryl aldehyde) CAS Registry Number: 107-02-8 I. Chronic Toxicity Summary Inhalation reference exposure level 0.06 mg/m3 (0.03 ppb) Critical effect(s) Histological changes in nasal epithelium in rats Hazard index target(s) Respiratory system; eyes II. Physical and Chemical Properties (HSDB, 1995) Description Colorless or yellow liquid with piercing, disagreeable odor Molecular formula C3H4O (oops..thats litte 3, little 4) Molecular weight 56.1 g/mol Density 0.843 g/cm3 @ 20C Boiling point 53C Melting point -88C Vapor pressure 220 torr @ 20C Odor threshold 160 ppb (370 mg/m3) (Amoore and Hautala, 1983) Solubility Soluble in ethanol, diethyl ether, and up to 20% w/v in water Conversion factor 1 ppm = 2.3 mg/m3 @ 25 C ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
nitrogen is explosive? .. crap. no one lite a match... lol... the earths atmosphere is 78.084% nitrogen Ray J r wrote: How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
LOL all jokes aside, though, that's actually an interesting idea. if it were possible to keep the N and glycerine separate, and inject them into the cylinder where they would combine, then explode. . . . of course, there's the question of how energy efficient this would be (i'm assuming it would be pretty efficient since nitroglycerine is so extremely explosive). and what emissions would be like. and whether creating nitroglycerine is as easy and simple as that in the first place. -chris In a message dated 7/17/05 2:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using what is called explosion propulsion. Exploding fuel pushes against pistons which are linked to a shaft, which is linked to the transmission. There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
Have the big black helicopters landed in your back yard yet? How 'bout the guys in the black suits? All you have to do now is type the word Jihad and. oops! Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LOLall jokes aside, though, that's actually an interesting idea. if it were possible to keep the N and glycerine separate, and inject them into the cylinder where they would combine, then explode. . . .of course, there's the question of how energy efficient this would be (i'm assuming it would be pretty efficient since nitroglycerine is so extremely explosive). and what emissions would be like. and whether creating nitroglycerine is as easy and simple as that in the first place.-chrisIn a message dated 7/17/05 2:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using what is called "explosion propulsion". Exploding fuel pushes against pistons which are linked to a shaft, which is linked to the transmission. There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein
it's not.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LOLall jokes aside, though, that's actually an interesting idea. if it were possible to keep the N and glycerine separate, and inject them into the cylinder where they would combine, then explode. . . .of course, there's the question of how energy efficient this would be (i'm assuming it would be pretty efficient since nitroglycerine is so extremely explosive). and what emissions would be like. and whether creating nitroglycerine is as easy and simple as that in the first place.-chrisIn a message dated 7/17/05 2:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using what is called "explosion propulsion". Exploding fuel pushes against pistons which are linked to a shaft, which is linked to the transmission. There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
