Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Hello Francene ... I'm glad you don't agree with all the article said. Sorry. I agree that energy independence is a myth. Just that the article says that is worthy of note, regardless of what else it says. I think it's something that's moving into general public awareness, more people will be saying it soon, then there'll be an OPED piece in the NYT and so on. It's part of the changes that are happening now. I wrote this here two years ago, on 11 May 2006: Lots of people are commenting that Americans are waking up en masse. One view I get of it comes from what many American applicants to join the list tell listadmin. In the last year the numbers of applicants rose steadily overall, a considerably steeper rise than a year previously. The global distribution remains the same - very global! There were always a number of these people among the US contingent: Results of previous PIPA/Knowledge Networks poll [May 04]: - A 57% majority believed Iraq was either directly involved in carrying out the 9/11 attacks or had provided substantial support to al-Qaeda - 82% either said that experts mostly agree Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda or experts are evenly divided on the question - 45% believe that evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda has been found - 60% believe that just before the war Iraq either had weapons of mass destruction or a major program for developing them - 65% said most experts say Iraq did have them or that experts are divided on the question - estimates of the number of US troop fatalities in Iraq varied widely - 59% were unaware that the majority of world public opinion is opposed to the US war with Iraq - asked how many nuclear weapons the U.S. has, the median estimate was 200 (the actual number is 6,000) These beliefs are closely correlated with intentions to vote for Bush. They often give personal detail, but there tends to be a sameness of view. They'd often tell listadmin they were interested in biofuels because they didn't want to put their money in the pockets of terrorists. Over the last eight months it's been changing, there's a curve. It changed from terrorists to terrorist nations, and then to unstable Middle Eastern regimes. Muslims continued to be favourite unpopular people not to put your money in the pockets of (and worse). Around that time (post-Katrina) people also started mentioning environmental benefits as a possible by-product of using biofuels. Then the actual amount they didn't want to give to whoever it was started getting much more important as the gas price rose, but the environment got more important too, even unto climate change. Climate change slowly started changing into global warming, and everything got more intense as the gas price kept rising. The number of people who just wanted to (or had to) save money rose with it. Government started creeping up the unpopularity chart, though mostly only obliquely mentioned, and it hasn't made it to the bigtime yet. More recently, independence from foreign oil shot right up, displacing unstable Middle Eastern regimes, which fell right down in unpopularity. Foreign oil is still right up there, but it was joined by Big Oil companies, and then by ExxonMobil, and then by ExxonMobil's retiring CEO with his $400 million gold watch. Just think of that: Osama bin Laden just morphed into the CEO of ExxonMobil. Ain't that something. Nobody has yet said they want to make biodiesel because they hate Iran. (But they have said that about Saudi Arabia.) Iraq comes into it occasionally but never the Iraqis, except maybe as being not worth investing more dead soldiers in. Oil and war are sometimes linked, especially more recently. snip They're moved by memes, as Godwin would say. Just because they think something new now doesn't mean they've worked anything much else out yet. It doesn't even mean they're aware they thought (felt) something different yesterday. Can you project the curve forward? Who is it they're going to end up wanting to make biodiesel so they don't have to put money in his pocket? An interesting glimpse. The only thing I'll bet on is that it won't be Osama bin Laden. By the way, I'm not being disparaging, I really don't like it when people sneer at sheeple. But when you're watching social movement it's the tide that counts, more than the drops of water. Of course in another way they're the only thing that matters. Something else that's to be seen in the same dataset is a different sort of pattern among responses from Americans who probably don't watch FauxTV. It's more interesting, but it's more difficult to describe too because there's more variety, the sameness is lacking. It's something you'd do by using lots of examples, not just painting broad sweeping patterns, it's more of a mosaic. They often talk about Iran, and Iraq, oil, war, money, corrupt corporations and politicians, the environment and global warming, even torture
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Actually, the Prius uses both DC and AC, so it depends which circuit is of concern as to which is appropriate. The battery is definitely a CD device. Cabling runs from the battery to the inverter which drives the electric motor. During charging, the driven alternator produces AC, but this has to be rectified before being applied to charge the battery. Similarly for regenerative braking. In my experience, affordable equipment designed to measure current and EMF on DC circuits will also work on AC circuits. The reverse is not as common. Darryl Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Darryl McMahon wrote: Francene, have you done the test with DC-rated equipment? Most low-cost EMF testing equipment is designed for use with AC power. I believe the Prius does use AC. Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Darryl McMahon It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (eBook and trade paper) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
EMFs promote cancer? What explanation then for three generations of city commuters - from before the First World War until well into the 1960s - that worldwide (we're talking multiples of millions of people here) travelled daily on electric trams and trolley buses, vehicles which require heavy kilowatt hour usage to transport large loads with consequent massive EMFs? Also what of the drivers and conductors who manned them day and daily for all of their working lives, retiring in good health with every expectation of long life? No reports of massive cancer surges during that period, certainly not until the 70s - by which time most electrically driven commuter transport had been phased out in favour of C02 belching combustion engines - when the rise in incidence was attributed to other environmental agencies. Do you have sources, surveys, chapter and verse to back your claim? If so, please fill me in, I'm confused. Regards, Bob. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Francene McClintock Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2008 4:52 a.m. To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence I own a 2003 Prius. Get an EMF meter and see the electromagnetic fields you and your passengers are sitting in. Those cars are dangerous. EMFs promote cancer. Children are especially suseptible. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080426/7efd7e54/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1399 - Release Date: 26/04/2008 2:17 p.m. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1399 - Release Date: 26/04/2008 2:17 p.m. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080427/8d66f806/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Bob, No problems, but it does not really prove anything. Average life expectancy have nearly doubled since the first world war, in almost all countries. One of the major reasons is the discovery of antibiotics. The whole picture of the reasons of death, have change so much. So your statement about life expectancy is a non starter, even if your are right on the issue. The use of electricity, or for the argument all energy, have gone up many times. This also goes for transportation by means of electricity, even if a lot of it went underground. Our exposure to EMFs has risen enormously, so with the rise of average life span, it might be good for us and it was a period where they sold equipments for EMF treatments. LOL Hakan At 08:36 AM 4/27/2008, you wrote: EMFs promote cancer? What explanation then for three generations of city commuters - from before the First World War until well into the 1960s - that worldwide (we're talking multiples of millions of people here) travelled daily on electric trams and trolley buses, vehicles which require heavy kilowatt hour usage to transport large loads with consequent massive EMFs? Also what of the drivers and conductors who manned them day and daily for all of their working lives, retiring in good health with every expectation of long life? No reports of massive cancer surges during that period, certainly not until the 70s - by which time most electrically driven commuter transport had been phased out in favour of C02 belching combustion engines - when the rise in incidence was attributed to other environmental agencies. Do you have sources, surveys, chapter and verse to back your claim? If so, please fill me in, I'm confused. Regards, Bob. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Francene McClintock Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2008 4:52 a.m. To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence I own a 2003 Prius. Get an EMF meter and see the electromagnetic fields you and your passengers are sitting in. Those cars are dangerous. EMFs promote cancer. Children are especially suseptible. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080426/7efd7e54/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1399 - Release Date: 26/04/2008 2:17 p.m. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1399 - Release Date: 26/04/2008 2:17 p.m. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080427/8d66f806/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Hello Francene http://128.128.76.85/page.do?pid=12455 Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. Thanks, I've been there before. The Woods Hole people said there might be an ice age in western Europe because of fresh water melting into the gulf stream. This is also covered in Inconvinient Truth but not alot of emphasis is placed on it. It seems to be mainly Woods Hole that does that. You should add that Hollywood made a blockbuster movie about it, probably a major reason so many Americans believe it, and so few other people do. Superficial layers of the Gulf stream are salty and warm as they move north toward Greenland. As the water approaches Greenland, the water cools and heat is lost to evaporation. This heat is transferred along the jet stream to warm western Europe. The remaining water sinks deep into the lower layers of the ocean because of its heavy salt content at 5 billion gallons/second, driving the global ocean conveyor belt. If Greenland melts and the fresh water reaches the ocean current, it will dilute the salty water. If it gets diluted enough, the water will stop diving down (ie no longer salty) and the conveyor belt will stop. If it stops, there will no longer be heat in the northern gulf stream and western Europe will move into an ice age. The emissions are causing global 'warming' and the potential threat of fresh water melt into the ocean which may have the secondary effect of an ice age. The Woods Hole people are in Greenland now studying if the fresh water is staying contained on land (possibly moving under the ice sheets) or if any has really reached the ocean yet. Yes, that's the story. Most climate scientists seem to regard it as a possibility, not a probability, or they discount it. Woods Hole is an exception, they actively promote the idea, and seem to be looking for evidence for it, rather than just looking at the evidence. The Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution is a private, independent, not-for-profit corporation. I don't know what their interests might be, if not simply oceanography. Please don't get me wrong, it was me who suggested it here in the first place, in 2001, talking about John Hamaker's book, and again a few days ago. But there's no certainty about it. Eg, Abrupt Climate Change: Inevitable Surprises by the US National Academies' National Research Council Committee on Abrupt Climate Change says: Researchers do not know enough about such events to accurately predict them, so surprises are inevitable. And: If the planet's climate is being forced to change -- as is currently the case -- it increases the number of possible mechanisms that can trigger abrupt events... Some steps that deserve careful scrutiny include reducing emissions to slow global warming, improving climate forecasting, slowing biodiversity loss, and improving water, land, and air quality. http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10136 I will read the rules and try to understand. Yes I was shouting. I'm glad you don't agree with all the article said. Sorry. Okay. Are you going to reply to this? http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg72370.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Francene, have you done the test with DC-rated equipment? Most low-cost EMF testing equipment is designed for use with AC power. What standards for health and safety are you comparing your figures to? Have you run the equivalent test on a conventional automobile in the vicinity of the ignition coil? We have had a couple of hundred years of experience with people in close proximity to electro-magnetic fields. I'm not claiming they are harmless, but I'm not aware of a clear case where low-level fields are strongly linked to negative health effects. The planet has a background magnetic field. Magnets are routinely sold as providing health benefits. How do you compare the supposed negative health effects of low-level electro-magnetic fields with the proven negative health effects from the emissions of burning petroleum fuels in an internal combustion engine? Darryl McMahon Francene McClintock wrote: I own a 2003 Prius. Get an EMF meter and see the electromagnetic fields you and your passengers are sitting in. Those cars are dangerous. EMFs promote cancer. Children are especially suseptible. -- Darryl McMahon Are high energy costs getting you down? The hydrogen economy is not going to save us. Want to know what will? The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
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Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
I have not read Blume's book, however, I do take exception to this statement, and the implicit assumption that electricity can only be produced from coal and nuclear as a universal, immutable and eternal truth. I live on the border between Ontario and Quebec. In Quebec ALL grid electricity is produced from hydro or wind. No coal, no hydro, no oil, no natural gas - period. In Ontario, about 20% of generation (and falling) comes from coal, and virtually none at night. Nuclear and hydro both produce more electricity than coal in Ontario. Personally, I purchase enough wind power credits to offset my share of the coal generation, and most of the nuclear. Anyone who buys electricity from a utility supply grid has the option of buying low-impact electricity and putting it on the grid to off-set their purchases, if they so desire. I save my household solar facing area for gardening, house heating and water heating, so minimal PV panels here. However, putting them on the house is the proper solution in my opinion. Supplying a small stand-by battery bank and putting juice into the grid strikes me as the way to go. Charging at night has a couple of benefits. 1) Wind power is typically stronger at night, so more of this power is available at this time when the grid is typically at its lowest demand point. 2) A permanent installation allows optimal aiming of the panels to maximize output. 3) Buying power at night typically entitles the buyer to a better price if time-of-use pricing is in place, so we can buy electricity when it is on sale, every day. I'm skeptical about the cycle efficiency that would be involved in producing feedstock for ethanol, making the ethanol, feeding it into an internal combustion engine to produce electricity to charge a battery to power an EV or PHEV, relative to other available options. I'm generally in favour of co-generation. However, given that I don't need to heat my house about half the year, and that my electricity comes primarily from hydro and wind, I think that charging an EV directly makes better sense. That's not a purely academic exercise for me. It's a result that I considered at length because I own and use a variety of electric vehicles, including a car, a tractor, a boat (solar charged), a motorcycle, and an electric-assist bicycle. There are studies that have concluded that even using coal to produce electricity, it is environmentally better to charge EVs than run the equivalent vehicles on gasoline. Over time, car emissions get worse while power plant emissions are improving. It's easier to clean up one smokestack than a million tailpipes. Here's one of the more accessible papers on the subject. http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf Finally, not all air pollution is created equal. Most of us (having regular access to the Internet, e-mail and a computer) live in industrialized cities or near them. Cars and trucks running on combustion engines put their exhaust right where we are breathing - at ground level in populated areas. Power plant smokestacks are frequently placed at a distance from populated areas, and putting their emissions out several hundred feet above the ground, and that after being filtered for several types of toxins and particulates. EVs and PHEVs are not a perfect solution. However, at this point they are a step forward from the conventional automotive fleet, and we can change the primary energy mix that produces electricity if we just choose to do so. There is other lower-hanging fruit to be picked from the energy efficiency/conservation/environmental trees, but adding EVs to the basket is still worthwhile IMO. Darryl McMahon Owner of multiple electric vehicles, and Author, The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy Francene McClintock wrote: One of the worst BLACK IDEAS PAINTED GREEN is the proposition of all electric cars or plug-in hybrids. The proponents talk about how we could use little or no oil if we just plugged our cars in at night and charged their batteries at home. If you don't drive too far, the gasoline engine in the hybrid might never be needed during the day, and think about how clean the air would be. But the electricity doesn't appear by magic. It'd made from dirty coal or nuclear power for the most part. So when you charge batteries with grid electricity, the toxins are moved from the tailpipe to the power plant. What's worse is that nighttime charging makes a market for otherwise unmarketable, expensive, nighttime coal or nuclear power. The only exception to this otherwise awful scenario is when you generate your own power cleanly from alcohol and use it to charge your electric or alcohol-powered hybrid car batteries and heat your home at the same time. Solar electric panels are useless for charging your car at night, and even if you put solar electricity into the grid during the day, it wouldn't change the fact that nighttime
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Darryl McMahon wrote: Francene, have you done the test with DC-rated equipment? Most low-cost EMF testing equipment is designed for use with AC power. I believe the Prius does use AC. Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Hello Francene I suggested you should use the list archives, but it seems you didn't get it. The list rules say that too. Actually it doesn't look like you got the message itself either - did you read it? I'd like a reply. The list rules say that too. The message is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg72370.html 87% of the US corn crop is fed to animalsclose to 20%..is sold to wealthy nations to fatten their livestock. Virtually no impoverished nation will accept our corndue to its being genetically modified and therefore unfit for human consumption. David Blume Alcohol Can be a Gas. It is in our SECURITY interests to use biofuels (and especially Europe's as they will get hit the hardest with global climate change = ICE AGE). Really? In capital letters too. Got some proof for us? Biofuels are carbon nuetral. Not necessarily. They're probably closer to it than fossil fuels, but whether or not they're carbon-neutral depends how the crops are grown, the energy used in the processing, co-product by-product or waste-product handling, distribution. Even at its best, the methanol in biodiesel is derived from fossil fuels (natural gas). So for a start, are you talking about biofuels or agrofuels? That has a big impact on how carbon-neutral they might be. See Greenhouse gases and global warming: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html#greenhouse anything above ground is already in the carbon cycle. It's when we dig up coal or oil and burn it that we ADD to the CARBON in the atmosphere. This must stop. Burning biofuels adds carbon but growing the biofuels subtracts carbon. It is carbon neutral and that is the whole concept from which we must base our transportation needs on. WE CAN'T KEEP DIGGING, PUMPING, BURNING and ADDING CARBON TO OUR ATMOSPHERE. Carbon neutral is also why it is OK to burn wood to heat your house, as long as the trees are replanted. Potential total alcohol yields from several fibrous crops could routinely top 1500 to 5000 gallons/acre per year. Crops such as hemp, sudan grass, switchgrass, and many fast growing trees can be grown for a high yields of alcohol per acre, even on land that isn't considered cropland or farmland. So at 5000+ gallons/acre, the US might even use less than 15% of it's prime cropland to serve all of it's transportation fuel needs. David Blume Oil can be produced, pumped from the ground and refined without directly impinging on other pieces of the world economy..7 myths of energy independence.This is BS. What about global climate change? What about asthma, cancer, war, ETC. What about climate and war refugees Hey, Francene, try decaffeinated next time! LOL! This: WE CAN'T KEEP DIGGING, PUMPING, BURNING and ADDING CARBON TO OUR ATMOSPHERE is called SHOUTING, it's bad netiquette, it's RUDE. One question-mark is enough, four or five of them at a time doesn't help to thump the message home. It sounds like you're just shouting slogans and rhetoric. This isn't the place for it, a lot of the members have been working with all this stuff for years, they don't need to be yelled at. Reasoned and informed discussion is better. By the way, please don't think that because I forwarded the Mother Jones piece that means I agree with it, such forwards are FYIs, for your information, worthy of note. Of course there's much to disagree with, but it's worthy of note just the same. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Do you have sources for these numbers? What I have seen is that electric cars, even when run from the lousy Coal fired power plants here in Colorado, are still no worse than your average ICE car for CO2 and CO and particulates and NOx, and if run from a more modern power plant or a different fuel mix as some other states have, will be better. On the issue of photovoltaics... that's interesting. During the day, the peaker plants are running natural gas, so that's probably what fuel is often avoided, not coal. Still better than not having PV on the system at all, but not totally avoiding coal emissions like we'd like. If a large wind mix was included, it could be better, as that tends to peak at night -- usually when there is low load, but if we had a large component of EV charging, we could make better use of that night peaking resource. Z On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Francene McClintock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the worst BLACK IDEAS PAINTED GREEN is the proposition of all electric cars or plug-in hybrids. The proponents talk about how we could use little or no oil if we just plugged our cars in at night and charged their batteries at home. If you don't drive too far, the gasoline engine in the hybrid might never be needed during the day, and think about how clean the air would be. But the electricity doesn't appear by magic. It'd made from dirty coal or nuclear power for the most part. So when you charge batteries with grid electricity, the toxins are moved from the tailpipe to the power plant. What's worse is that nighttime charging makes a market for otherwise unmarketable, expensive, nighttime coal or nuclear power. The only exception to this otherwise awful scenario is when you generate your own power cleanly from alcohol and use it to charge your electric or alcohol-powered hybrid car batteries and heat your home at the same time. Solar electric panels are useless for charging your car at night, and even if you put solar electricity into the grid during the day, it wouldn't change the fact that nighttime plug-ins woud make a market for dirty power after dark. David Blume Alcohol Can Be a Gas Fueling An Ethanol Revolution for the 21st century -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080426/73b47b94/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
