Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test
Joe, I've taken a while to respond toyour question becauseI have been tweaking my process. Ialso produced what seemed to be good BD, but invariably a very small residue would remain undissolved in the methanol. I wasn't sure that it was possible to make BD that passed the test. -I reduced my volume of oil to 20 gal (76L).(Iuse a 1" clearwater pumpfor agitation). -Raised the temp to 150F (Ina sealed water heater w. vented pressure relief valve.) -Increased the reaction time to 2.5 hrs. -Increased methanol from 4 to 4.5 gal I also use oil that is dry and consistently gives titrations of 1 - 1.2 g/L With all of this I finally produced BD that passedJan's Methanol Test. I havesince made a few adjustments in the interest of energy, time,and $. 1. (Based on a response by Bob Allen) I add the methoxide when temp is about 130F. Pump and heater continue to operate until temp is 150F (about 1 hour). I then turn off heater andallow the pump to run for another 1.5 hours. Final temp is about 140F. BD still passed Jan's Methanol Test. 2. I then went back to 4 gal of methanol (20% of Vol of oil). BD still passed Jan's test. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test Hi All;The other day I threw out a question but it was an afterthought on another thread. Nobody has answered so here I am trying again on a specific thread. I am interested to know how many on the list do Jan Warnqvist's methanol test and how much precipitate do people get? How much is ok? The description states that every 1 ml equals 4% contaminate and indicates what 'causes washing problems' I have absolutely no washing problems now with the way my reactor is running, my BD has a density of 0.88, there is a dramatic lightening of color after the split, I get a reasonable amount of glycerine (not that this means a hell of a lot) but as an example, last batch was horrible oil I had to use 15.5 grams of KOH per liter oil and I ended up with 23 liters of BD at the end out of 25 liters oil. The first wash water was milky white and the 4th was almost like drinking water and the PH was 7.3 vs 7.4 before washing. No detectable 3rd layer formed at any stage of the process. By all accounts this should be good quality fuel but I will still get a little fallout from the methanol test ( I haven't quantified it yet because I didn't do in in a graduated cylinder but there is definitely a clear amber liquid phase at the bottom on the tube after settling)So my question once again is who else uses this test and how is it going for you? Does anyone get a perfect result (no fallout) from this test? And finally should I be concerned by a couple of percent contamination in my fuel?I did search the mail archive twice using 'methanol test' and also 'Jan Warnqvist' as keywords, but the returns were not so informative. List members I need your wisdom!Jan perhaps you are most qualified to answer but I would really like to get a sense of the percentage of the list members who are running this test. So chime in!Joe ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test
Great news Tom and congradulations. I am going through those refinements myself. I have been raising the reactor temperature little by little. I suppose I'll have to think about pressure when I get up above 60 degrees C to avoid losing methanol to evaporation. The thermostat turns off at 57 right now and on at 53. Also my feed stock is pretty bad. Last couple of batches had to be reacted twice since a single step was not enough. I should start thinking about acid-base I guess. You are lucky to have access to such good oil! Thanks for the excellent information. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I've taken a while to respond toyour question becauseI have been tweaking my process. Ialso produced what seemed to be good BD, but invariably a very small residue would remain undissolved in the methanol. I wasn't sure that it was possible to make BD that passed the test. -I reduced my volume of oil to 20 gal (76L).(Iuse a 1" clearwater pumpfor agitation). -Raised the temp to 150F (Ina sealed water heater w. vented pressure relief valve.) -Increased the reaction time to 2.5 hrs. -Increased methanol from 4 to 4.5 gal I also use oil that is dry and consistently gives titrations of 1 - 1.2 g/L With all of this I finally produced BD that passedJan's Methanol Test. I havesince made a few adjustments in the interest of energy, time,and $. 1. (Based on a response by Bob Allen) I add the methoxide when temp is about 130F. Pump and heater continue to operate until temp is 150F (about 1 hour). I then turn off heater andallow the pump to run for another 1.5 hours. Final temp is about 140F. BD still passed Jan's Methanol Test. 2. I then went back to 4 gal of methanol (20% of Vol of oil). BD still passed Jan's test. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test Hi All; The other day I threw out a question but it was an afterthought on another thread. Nobody has answered so here I am trying again on a specific thread. I am interested to know how many on the list do Jan Warnqvist's methanol test and how much precipitate do people get? How much is ok? The description states that every 1 ml equals 4% contaminate and indicates what 'causes washing problems' I have absolutely no washing problems now with the way my reactor is running, my BD has a density of 0.88, there is a dramatic lightening of color after the split, I get a reasonable amount of glycerine (not that this means a hell of a lot) but as an example, last batch was horrible oil I had to use 15.5 grams of KOH per liter oil and I ended up with 23 liters of BD at the end out of 25 liters oil. The first wash water was milky white and the 4th was almost like drinking water and the PH was 7.3 vs 7.4 before washing. No detectable 3rd layer formed at any stage of the process. By all accounts this should be good quality fuel but I will still get a little fallout from the methanol test ( I haven't quantified it yet because I didn't do in in a graduated cylinder but there is definitely a clear amber liquid phase at the bottom on the tube after settling) So my question once again is who else uses this test and how is it going for you? Does anyone get a perfect result (no fallout) from this test? And finally should I be concerned by a couple of percent contamination in my fuel? I did search the mail archive twice using 'methanol test' and also 'Jan Warnqvist' as keywords, but the returns were not so informative. List members I need your wisdom! Jan perhaps you are most qualified to answer but I would really like to get a sense of the percentage of the list members who are running this test. So chime in! Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test
good info, Joe and Tom. ty What are some good rules of thumb when looking for used veg oil? We have access to almost any kind of restaurant imaginable, here. Are some restaurants disposing of cleaner oil than others? Does it make a difference what has been cooked in the oil? For instance if a restaurant fries primarily fish products will that yield an oil with less fats? Is that a good thing for producing biodiesel? -Mark -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Joe StreetSent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:03 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol testGreat news Tom and congradulations. I am going through those refinements myself. I have been raising the reactor temperature little by little. I suppose I'll have to think about pressure when I get up above 60 degrees C to avoid losing methanol to evaporation. The thermostat turns off at 57 right now and on at 53. Also my feed stock is pretty bad. Last couple of batches had to be reacted twice since a single step was not enough. I should start thinking about acid-base I guess.You are lucky to have access to such good oil! Thanks for the excellent information.JoeThomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I've taken a while to respond toyour question becauseI have been tweaking my process. Ialso produced what seemed to be good BD, but invariably a very small residue would remain undissolved in the methanol. I wasn't sure that it was possible to make BD that passed the test. -I reduced my volume of oil to 20 gal (76L).(Iuse a 1" clearwater pumpfor agitation). -Raised the temp to 150F (Ina sealed water heater w. vented pressure relief valve.) -Increased the reaction time to 2.5 hrs. -Increased methanol from 4 to 4.5 gal I also use oil that is dry and consistently gives titrations of 1 - 1.2 g/L With all of this I finally produced BD that passedJan's Methanol Test. I havesince made a few adjustments in the interest of energy, time,and $. 1. (Based on a response by Bob Allen) I add the methoxide when temp is about 130F. Pump and heater continue to operate until temp is 150F (about 1 hour). I then turn off heater andallow the pump to run for another 1.5 hours. Final temp is about 140F. BD still passed Jan's Methanol Test. 2. I then went back to 4 gal of methanol (20% of Vol of oil). BD still passed Jan's test. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test Hi All;The other day I threw out a question but it was an afterthought on another thread. Nobody has answered so here I am trying again on a specific thread. I am interested to know how many on the list do Jan Warnqvist's methanol test and how much precipitate do people get? How much is ok? The description states that every 1 ml equals 4% contaminate and indicates what 'causes washing problems' I have absolutely no washing problems now with the way my reactor is running, my BD has a density of 0.88, there is a dramatic lightening of color after the split, I get a reasonable amount of glycerine (not that this means a hell of a lot) but as an example, last batch was horrible oil I had to use 15.5 grams of KOH per liter oil and I ended up with 23 liters of BD at the end out of 25 liters oil. The first wash water was milky white and the 4th was almost like drinking water and the PH was 7.3 vs 7.4 before washing. No detectable 3rd layer formed at any stage of the process. By all accounts this should be good quality fuel but I will still get a little fallout from the methanol test ( I haven't quantified it yet because I didn't do in in a graduated cylinder but there is definitely a clear amber liquid phase at the bottom on the tube after settling)So my question once again is who else uses this test and how is it going for you? Does anyone get a perfect result (no fallout) from this test? And finally should I be concerned by a couple of percent contamination in my fuel?I did search the mail archive twice using 'methanol test' and also 'Jan Warnqvist' as keywords, but the returns were not so informative. List members I need your wisdom!Jan perhaps you are most qualified to answer but I would really like to get a sense of the percentage of the list members who are running this test. So chime in!Joe ___Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test
Hi Joe as I read this it seems that you are using 4 to 4.5 gal of methanol per 20 gal of oil. Is that right ? I use 20% and with good titration have not had a problem yet I think I will try to reduce it bit by bit so the usage can be reduced and washing maybe a little easier. Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 8:01 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test Joe, I've taken a while to respond toyour question becauseI have been tweaking my process. Ialso produced what seemed to be good BD, but invariably a very small residue would remain undissolved in the methanol. I wasn't sure that it was possible to make BD that passed the test. -I reduced my volume of oil to 20 gal (76L).(Iuse a 1 clearwater pumpfor agitation). -Raised the temp to 150F (Ina sealed water heater w. vented pressure relief valve.) -Increased the reaction time to 2.5 hrs. -Increased methanol from 4 to 4.5 gal I also use oil that is dry and consistently gives titrations of 1 - 1.2 g/L With all of this I finally produced BD that passedJan's Methanol Test. I havesince made a few adjustments in the interest of energy, time,and $. 1. (Based on a response by Bob Allen) I add the methoxide when temp is about 130F. Pump and heater continue to operate until temp is 150F (about 1 hour). I then turn off heater andallow the pump to run for another 1.5 hours. Final temp is about 140F. BD still passed Jan's Methanol Test. 2. I then went back to 4 gal of methanol (20% of Vol of oil). BD still passed Jan's test. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test Hi All; The other day I threw out a question but it was an afterthought on another thread. Nobody has answered so here I am trying again on a specific thread. I am interested to know how many on the list do Jan Warnqvist's methanol test and how much precipitate do people get? How much is ok? The description states that every 1 ml equals 4% contaminate and indicates what 'causes washing problems' I have absolutely no washing problems now with the way my reactor is running, my BD has a density of 0.88, there is a dramatic lightening of color after the split, I get a reasonable amount of glycerine (not that this means a hell of a lot) but as an example, last batch was horrible oil I had to use 15.5 grams of KOH per liter oil and I ended up with 23 liters of BD at the end out of 25 liters oil. The first wash water was milky white and the 4th was almost like drinking water and the PH was 7.3 vs 7.4 before washing. No detectable 3rd layer formed at any stage of the process. By all accounts this should be good quality fuel but I will still get a little fallout from the methanol test ( I haven't quantified it yet because I didn't do in in a graduated cylinder but there is definitely a clear amber liquid phase at the bottom on the tube after settling) So my question once again is who else uses this test and how is it going for you? Does anyone get a perfect result (no fallout) from this test? And finally should I be concerned by a couple of percent contamination in my fuel? I did search the mail archive twice using 'methanol test' and also 'Jan Warnqvist' as keywords, but the returns were not so informative. List members I need your wisdom! Jan perhaps you are most qualified to answer but I would really like to get a sense of the percentage of the list members who are running this test. So chime in! Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test
Hello Jan and all Hello Golan and all, from experience I can tell that the methanol test as described on the JtF homepage rather well corresponds to the result you will have from the test according to the EN 14214 regarding the ester content. I agree, see below. Just to be clear, Europe's EN 14214 standard specifies ester content at min. 96.5%, the French standard is the same, Italy and Sweden specify min. 98%, the US ASTM D-6751 standard doesn't specify ester content. EN 14214 is probably the de facto basic world standard. However, if the methanol test shows e.g. 1 ml (4%) of undissolved oil in the measuring glass, you can expect an ester content of 92-94% according to the EN norm. In order to meet the norm with an ester content of min 96,5%, the methanol test will have to show no undissolved oil at all. I tried the methanol test several times and didn't get any result. So I tried it with some other fuel, some biodiesel made by a newbie brewer before we helped him to improve it, and some fuel from commercial producers here in Japan, and then I got results, very clear! Just as Jan described it in his original message. Since then we've been working with a university lab that's tested our biodiesel with their gaskro (GC), using samples from standard production batches, not test-batch samples, just the usual stuff we make all the time, and the results show FAME content of 98.5%. Which is why we didn't get any result with the methanol test. I've also seen other lab tests which tend to confirm the results I got with the commercial fuel methanol tests. Joe asked: So my question once again is who else uses this test and how is it going for you? Does anyone get a perfect result (no fallout) from this test? And finally should I be concerned by a couple of percent contamination in my fuel? I think it's a very useful test. Should you be concerned, well, it's up to you. These might help, if you haven't already seen them: The Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers (Delphi, Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch) on biodiesel quality: Summary -- html http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html Full document -- Acrobat file, 104kb http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/FIEM.pdf Determining the Influence of Contaminants on Biodiesel Properties, Jon H. Van Gerpen et al., Iowa State University, July 31, 1996 -- 12,000-word report on contaminants and their effects. Acrobat file, 2.1Mb http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/bdgerpen96.pdf Best Keith pH measurements are difficult and the right conclusions from these measurements can be even harder to draw. But, a neutral BD can have a pH value of anything between 4,5 -7, depending upon which other substances are present in the BD. It is also important to know that the pH scale is logarithmic when judging the results of the measurements. If a WVO has a pH value above 7, it means that there are alkaline compounds present, probably tenside remains. The way of succeeding with biodiesel production goes through an accurate raw material control, adjusting the recipe and process details according to that. Good luck to you ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Golan Shmuel To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test hi joe iuse the test and it still gives me hadeake . at list half of the times are not as it should be im at the begining of the way and it give me direction. i just put abigger pump and it already looking better i alsow parchesed a PH tester and i start to take test from old BD sampels (unwashed)resault 12.2-13.3 how doese that sound? tested as well somewvo i got 8.4-8.5 i thought it should be acid? have u got any idea all the best golan On 13/01/06, JJJN mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joe, I use every test on JtF to test my Bio and also the the Hanna Instruments test for Glycol. I do this every single batch. I have never had any fallout in Jans test to date.(Knock Knock Knock on wood) ( I measure it out precisely ) I have graduated to the base/base method and have had absolutely great results. That said I got into a washing awhile back that was not as good as I like so I investigated and found that I am dealing with FFA's that are higher than I want. I am moving to the acid/base learning phase for that. I did also learn that if I pour the WVO that is liquid and on top at 28 deg F into a bucket and process the stuff that gets clumpy (on bottom) I greatly reduce the FFA's in the oil. (14% or so lower) compairitably (tests of each done side by side same temp same everything except oil and very precise). So in the future winter freeze cycles I will cut out the dark top stuff and save for Acid processing. I have since adopted this and my bio stands up
Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test
hi joe iuse the test and it still gives me hadeake . at list half of the times are not as it should be im at the begining of the way and it give me direction. i just put abigger pump and it already looking better i alsow parchesed a PH tester and i start to take test from old BD sampels (unwashed)resault 12.2-13.3 how doese that sound? tested as well somewvo i got 8.4-8.5 i thought it should be acid? have u got any idea all the best golan On 13/01/06, JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joe,I use every test on JtF to test my Bio and also the the HannaInstruments test for Glycol. I do this every single batch.I have never had any fallout in Jans test to date.(Knock Knock Knock on wood) ( Imeasure it out precisely ) I have graduated to the base/base method andhave had absolutely great results. That said I got into a washing awhile back that was not as good as I like so I investigated and found that Iam dealing with FFA's that are higher than I want.I am moving to theacid/base learning phase for that.I did also learn that if I pour the WVO that is liquid and on top at 28 deg F into a bucket and process thestuff that gets clumpy (on bottom)I greatly reduce the FFA's in theoil. (14% or so lower) compairitably (tests of each done side by side same temp same everythingexcept oil and very precise). So in thefuture winter freeze cycles I will cut out the dark top stuff and savefor Acid processing. I have since adopted this and my bio stands up to intense stir washing each and every wash now.( I get clean and clear atthe third wash but I do go 4 just because)I might add that after Itake a grab sample from the batch and mix 50% water, then give it a 30 second shake, it separates into 2 phases in 1 minute or so.(thats at 50- 60 deg F water) That is my first clue I have a good thing going.Hope this helps.JimJoe Street wrote: Hi All; The other day I threw out a question but it was an afterthought on another thread.Nobody has answered so here I am trying again on a specific thread.I am interested to know *how many on the list do Jan Warnqvist's methanol test* http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality and how much precipitate do people get?How much is ok?The description states that every 1 ml equals 4% contaminate and indicates what 'causes washing problems'I have absolutely no washing problems now with the way my reactor is running, my BD has a density of 0.88 , there is a dramatic lightening of color after the split, I get a reasonable amount of glycerine (not that this means a hell of a lot) but as an example, last batch was horrible oil I had to use 15.5 grams of KOH per liter oil and I ended up with 23 liters of BD at the end out of 25 liters oil.The first wash water was milky white and the 4th was almost like drinking water and the PH was 7.3 vs 7.4 before washing. No detectable 3rd layer formed at any stage of the process. By all accounts this should be good quality fuel but I will still get a littlefallout from the methanol test ( I haven't quantified it yet because I didn't do in in a graduated cylinder but there is definitely a clear amber liquid phase at the bottom on the tube after settling) So my question once again is who else uses this test and how is it going for you?Does anyone get a perfect result (no fallout) from this test?And finally should I be concerned by a couple of percent contamination in my fuel? I did search the mail archive twice using 'methanol test' and also 'Jan Warnqvist' as keywords, but the returns were not so informative. List members I need your wisdom! Jan perhaps you are most qualified to answer but I would really like to get a sense of the percentage of the list members who are running this test. So chime in! Joe **___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test
Hello Golan and all, from experience I can tell that the methanol test as described on the JtF homepage rather well corresponds to the result you will have from the test according to the EN 14214 regarding the ester content. However, if the methanol test shows e.g. 1 ml (4%) of undissolved oil in the measuring glass, you can expect an ester content of 92-94% according to the EN norm. In order to meet the norm with an ester content of min 96,5%, the methanol test will have to show no undissolved oil at all. pH measurements are difficult and the right conclusions from these measurements can be even harder to draw. But, a "neutral" BD can have a pH value of anything between 4,5 -7, depending upon which other substances are present in the BD. It is also important to know that the pH scale is logarithmic when judging the results of the measurements. If a WVO has a pH value above 7, it means that there are alkaline compounds present, probably tenside remains. The way of succeeding with biodiesel production goes through an accurate raw material control, adjusting the recipe and process details according to that. Good luck to you ! Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Golan Shmuel To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test hi joe iuse the test and it still gives me hadeake . at list half of the times are not as it should be im at the begining of the way and it give me direction. i just put abigger pump and it already looking better i alsow parchesed a PH tester and i start to take test from old BD sampels (unwashed)resault 12.2-13.3 how doese that sound? tested as well somewvo i got 8.4-8.5 i thought it should be acid? have u got any idea all the best golan On 13/01/06, JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joe,I use every test on JtF to test my Bio and also the the HannaInstruments test for Glycol. I do this every single batch.I have never had any fallout in Jans test to date.(Knock Knock Knock on wood) ( Imeasure it out precisely ) I have graduated to the base/base method andhave had absolutely great results. That said I got into a washing awhile back that was not as good as I like so I investigated and found that Iam dealing with FFA's that are higher than I want.I am moving to theacid/base learning phase for that.I did also learn that if I pour the WVO that is liquid and on top at 28 deg F into a bucket and process thestuff that gets clumpy (on bottom)I greatly reduce the FFA's in theoil. (14% or so lower) compairitably (tests of each done side by side same temp same everythingexcept oil and very precise). So in thefuture winter freeze cycles I will cut out the dark top stuff and savefor Acid processing. I have since adopted this and my bio stands up tointense stir washing each and every wash now.( I get clean and clear atthe third wash but I do go 4 just because)I might add that after Itake a grab sample from the batch and mix 50% water, then give it a 30second shake, it separates into 2 phases in 1 minute or so.(thats at 50- 60 deg F water) That is my first clue I have a good thing going.Hope this helps.JimJoe Street wrote: Hi All; The other day I threw out a question but it was an afterthought on another thread.Nobody has answered so here I am trying again on a specific thread.I am interested to know *how many on the list do Jan Warnqvist's methanol test* http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality and how much precipitate do people get?How much is ok?The description states that every 1 ml equals 4% contaminate and indicates what 'causes washing problems'I have absolutely no washing problems now with the way my reactor is running, my BD has a density of 0.88 , there is a dramatic lightening of color after the split, I get a reasonable amount of glycerine (not that this means a hell of a lot) but as an example, last batch was horrible oil I had to use 15.5 grams of KOH per liter oil and I ended up with 23 liters of BD at the end out of 25 liters oil.The first wash water was milky white and the 4th was almost like drinking water and the PH was 7.3 vs 7.4 before washing. No detectable 3rd layer formed at any stage of the process. By all accounts this should be good quality fuel but I will still get a littlefallout from the methanol test ( I haven't quantified it yet because I didn't do in in a graduated cylinder but there is definitely a clear amber liquid phase at the bottom on the tube after settling) So my question once again is who else uses this test and how is it going for you?Does anyone get a perfect result (no fallout)
Re: [Biofuel] Jan's Methanol test
Hi Joe, I use every test on JtF to test my Bio and also the the Hanna Instruments test for Glycol. I do this every single batch. I have never had any fallout in Jans test to date.(Knock Knock Knock on wood) ( I measure it out precisely ) I have graduated to the base/base method and have had absolutely great results. That said I got into a washing awhile back that was not as good as I like so I investigated and found that I am dealing with FFA's that are higher than I want. I am moving to the acid/base learning phase for that. I did also learn that if I pour the WVO that is liquid and on top at 28 deg F into a bucket and process the stuff that gets clumpy (on bottom) I greatly reduce the FFA's in the oil. (14% or so lower) compairitably (tests of each done side by side same temp same everything except oil and very precise). So in the future winter freeze cycles I will cut out the dark top stuff and save for Acid processing. I have since adopted this and my bio stands up to intense stir washing each and every wash now.( I get clean and clear at the third wash but I do go 4 just because) I might add that after I take a grab sample from the batch and mix 50% water, then give it a 30 second shake, it separates into 2 phases in 1 minute or so.(thats at 50 - 60 deg F water) That is my first clue I have a good thing going. Hope this helps. Jim Joe Street wrote: Hi All; The other day I threw out a question but it was an afterthought on another thread. Nobody has answered so here I am trying again on a specific thread. I am interested to know *how many on the list do Jan Warnqvist's methanol test* http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality and how much precipitate do people get? How much is ok? The description states that every 1 ml equals 4% contaminate and indicates what 'causes washing problems' I have absolutely no washing problems now with the way my reactor is running, my BD has a density of 0.88, there is a dramatic lightening of color after the split, I get a reasonable amount of glycerine (not that this means a hell of a lot) but as an example, last batch was horrible oil I had to use 15.5 grams of KOH per liter oil and I ended up with 23 liters of BD at the end out of 25 liters oil. The first wash water was milky white and the 4th was almost like drinking water and the PH was 7.3 vs 7.4 before washing. No detectable 3rd layer formed at any stage of the process. By all accounts this should be good quality fuel but I will still get a little fallout from the methanol test ( I haven't quantified it yet because I didn't do in in a graduated cylinder but there is definitely a clear amber liquid phase at the bottom on the tube after settling) So my question once again is who else uses this test and how is it going for you? Does anyone get a perfect result (no fallout) from this test? And finally should I be concerned by a couple of percent contamination in my fuel? I did search the mail archive twice using 'methanol test' and also 'Jan Warnqvist' as keywords, but the returns were not so informative. List members I need your wisdom! Jan perhaps you are most qualified to answer but I would really like to get a sense of the percentage of the list members who are running this test. So chime in! Joe ** ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
