Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran
. --Abraham Lincoln ___ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran Hello Randall Keith, You said: We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're obliged to be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other people or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is if you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not complicit because you're just a helpless slave. By your statement, in order for someone to even have a chance to avoid the responsibility for any bad actions by their government (ie. pollution, torture or nuking a country), it seems that they will need to be a person who: 1) Is capable of being aware of EVERYTHING that the government does domestically and internationally. To do this, you will need to posess God-like omniscience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience) since you will need to be aware of all actions performed by every single one of the MILLIONS of people that are connected with the US Federal government alone -- currently almost 2 million employees if you ignore the Military and the Postal Service. (http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm)How many more work for the various State and Local governments. How many people work for quasi-governmental institutions that have an effect on how the government operates? You quoted at least one http://www.pipa.org/. 2) Is able to influence ALL of those MILLIONS of people, or possess the knowledge to choose which of the MILLIONS of people you will need to influence to force all the remaining people that you cannot influence (time, distance, numbers of people to speak with, whatever) to do what you wish them to do. 3) Possess the knowledge of the correct thing to do, and how to communicate this to all of the people that you will need to influence to make what you want to happen occur in the manner that you desire. --- or --- Is it ok for someone to just complain about the actions of the government to avoid being labeled complicit, or do they have to actually DO something? If they have to do something, does it have to be effective? If so, how effective does their action have to be? How closely related to the government in question can someone be, and avoid responsibility for that government's actions? Are other countries that benefit from the actions of your government responsible for the actions of your government? If so, are the people of those other countries then also responsible for your governments actions?? What if you don't want to give the government money, but they take it under the threat of death or imprisonment? So...let me ask you personally: What are you doing? How effective have your actions been? What will you do in the future to become more effective? When do you become blameless? Are you aware of how every single dollar is spent by our government? Whose is bigger eh? :-) What am I doing. For what's most visible, how about Journey to Forever? Or running the Biofuel list and helping to keep it well fed over the last six years with the kind of information you specify, often against strong opposition by people who would much rather have it left comfortably buried out of sight where the forces we're discussing had put it, and put them too in a state of heedless and uncaring ignorance, consent, and indeed complicity. That information includes about the best set of tools I've seen for doing all the things you specify, including investigation, spin detection, source checking, counter-spin and counter-propaganda, and the kind of activism required if you're interested in a sustainable future. There's been much discussion here on activism, and on What can I do? That's all there too, with solutions offered. And I provide this resource. That's just for now, some things. If you go back through my history you'll find an unbroken record of opposing the forces we're discussing, in many ways and across a broad range of issues, and in many countries, mainly but not only as a campaigning journalist. It's something I've never stopped since I started it long ago in white racist South Africa, where life tended to be short and have ugly endings for people who felt they ought to take a hand in deciding what they were going to be complicit in. You can find some of the details of all this at our website, and elsewhere. I'm not planning on stopping. Have my actions been effective? Yes, they have. They are being now. There are very many people, VERY many, who could give you their own versions of that story. Together it all covers everything
Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran
articles, read and then understand them. I would venture a guess that most people simply did not have 10 to 20 hours a week to simply read everything of interest to find something that may not be right in the world. That is where the modern media has done its disservice...the help by condensing this tremendous amount of information into something digestable to the average person. The PROBLEM as you have pointed out repeatedly is that there is a BIAS in the spin/digestion that is generally unhealthy and untrue. So, when you lambast people for not investigating enough, please temper your ire with understanding that most people are not by nature researchers. It takes a special type of person to be able to read, categorize, understand and verify large amounts of information. There surely is no way of knowing something if you don't want to know it. The opinion manufacturing industry doesn't really hide things as much as render them uninteresting, the eye slides away, the ear goes deaf, the attention wanders. It works very well. But not on everybody. Not everybody is deaf to the truth, not everybody swallows the lies. Why's that? How do some people - many people - manage to stay awake and alert and undeceived? That has a bearing on complicity, don't you think? Keep in mind that desire does not always play a key role in knowing something. Simply put, you do not know what you do not know. You can spend your entire life learning new things and have no time to DO anything with that knowledge. This does not excuse everything, but it explains some things.It is quite true that everyone is not deaf to the truth...hence this list and the great work you have done in nutruring, maintaining and helping it grow along with JTF. Let me say Thanks right now...it has been very helpful for me personally, and quite a few people that I have pointed towards it. You also say that asking people that are trying to help if their actions are effective is heartless. I disagree wholeheartedly. If people do not stop and reassess what they are doing periodically, they risk causing more problems then they solve. That is the heart of learning and progress. There are other questions that I would ask you, but would do so off-list. But, someone who is trying to help, should never mind someone asking them questions, including is it working? My activities have not been as far-ranging and involved as your's...but I have spent quite a few years trying to get people to THINK and consider options to just believing everything they see, hear or read. I can bring up even more topics ranging from the purely ecomonic, to the environmental and finally to conspiracy related items in this mailing list, but it would be out of place here. You have done a good job balancing this list, and that is important. It is more than ok to ask someone what they are doing with their life. Most recently, me and my wife have started trying to expand our effort to help some orphans in Ukraine and Russia. My wife is Ukrainian and she and some of her family (in Russia and Ukraine) have suffered directly from Chernobyl explosion and other problems. I do not think that it is helpful to try to to see who can out help other people...nor do I think it is helpful or polite to blame people for the actions of others. People have different abilities and capabilities to help...I wish I had more time, but our 15 month-old son needs our attention as well, and he doesn't yet (but he will) understand why daddy needs to read for a while and not play with him. In the end, it is the DESIRE to help that will save us all...without the desire, nothing else can happen. I know that there will be at least ONE more person in the world that understands...and he can help teach others. --Randall Charlotte, NC ___ Heisenberg may have slept here If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my xe. --Abraham Lincoln ___ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran Hello Randall Keith, You said: We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're obliged to be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other people or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is if you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not complicit because you're just a helpless slave. By your statement, in order for someone to even have a chance to avoid the responsibility for any bad actions by their government (ie
Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran
Lots of people are commenting that Americans are waking up en masse. One view I get of it comes from what many American applicants to join the list tell listadmin. In the last year the numbers of applicants rose steadily overall, a considerably steeper rise than a year previously. The global distribution remains the same - very global! There were always a number of these people among the US contingent: Results of previous PIPA/Knowledge Networks poll [May 04]: - A 57% majority believed Iraq was either directly involved in carrying out the 9/11 attacks or had provided substantial support to al-Qaeda - 82% either said that experts mostly agree Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda or experts are evenly divided on the question - 45% believe that evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda has been found - 60% believe that just before the war Iraq either had weapons of mass destruction or a major program for developing them - 65% said most experts say Iraq did have them or that experts are divided on the question - estimates of the number of US troop fatalities in Iraq varied widely - 59% were unaware that the majority of world public opinion is opposed to the US war with Iraq - asked how many nuclear weapons the U.S. has, the median estimate was 200 (the actual number is 6,000) These beliefs are closely correlated with intentions to vote for Bush. They often give personal detail, but there tends to be a sameness of view. They'd often tell listadmin they were interested in biofuels because they didn't want to put their money in the pockets of terrorists. Over the last eight months it's been changing, there's a curve. It changed from terrorists to terrorist nations, and then to unstable Middle Eastern regimes. Muslims continued to be favourite unpopular people not to put your money in the pockets of (and worse). Around that time (post-Katrina) people also started mentioning environmental benefits as a possible by-product of using biofuels. Then the actual amount they didn't want to give to whoever it was started getting much more important as the gas price rose, but the environment got more important too, even unto climate change. Climate change slowly started changing into global warming, and everything got more intense as the gas price kept rising. The number of people who just wanted to (or had to) save money rose with it. Government started creeping up the unpopularity chart, though mostly only obliquely mentioned, and it hasn't made it to the bigtime yet. More recently, indepence from foreign oil shot right up, displacing unstable Middle Eastern regimes, which fell right down in unpopularity. Foreign oil is still right up there, but it was joined by Big Oil companies, and then by ExxonMobil, and then by ExxonMobil's retiring CEO with his $400 million gold watch. Just think of that: Osama bin Laden just morphed into the CEO of ExxonMobil. Ain't that something. Nobody has yet said they want to make biodiesel because they hate Iran. (But they have said that about Saudi Arabia.) Iraq comes into it occasionally but never the Iraqis, except maybe as being not worth investing more dead soldiers in. Oil and war are sometimes linked, especially more recently. What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIODIESEL? LOL! It's a list joke. That's what these folks used to say here, and some still do. Some who hate ExxonMobil's CEO still say that. They're moved by memes, as Godwin would say. Just because they think something new now doesn't mean they've worked anything much else out yet. It doesn't even mean they're aware they thought (felt) something different yesterday. Can you project the curve forward? Who is it they're going to end up wanting to make biodiesel so they don't have to put money in his pocket? An interesting glimpse. The only thing I'll bet on is that it won't be Osama bin Laden. By the way, I'm not being disparaging, I really don't like it when people sneer at sheeple. But when you're watching social movement it's the tide that counts, more than the drops of water. Of course in another way they're the only thing that matters. Something else that's to be seen in the same dataset is a different sort of pattern among responses from Americans who probably don't watch FauxTV. It's more interesting, but it's more difficult to describe too because there's more variety, the sameness is lacking. It's something you'd do by using lots of examples, not just painting broad sweeping patterns, it's more of a mosaic. They often talk about Iran, and Iraq, oil, war, money, corrupt corporations and politicians, the environment and global warming, even torture sometimes. They often say what they're doing too, or what their plans or their dreams are. There seem to be fewer viral memes at work here, they're generally more focused. IMHO it more than makes up for any disconnects in the others. Sorry, no numbers. Just to
Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran
prior to the Internet, had the ability to search for and VERIFY information with the ease of today? 30 years ago, you would have needed access to a well equipped library with a large microfilm/microfiche archive, the time to browse for the relevant articles, read and then understand them. I would venture a guess that most people simply did not have 10 to 20 hours a week to simply read everything of interest to find something that may not be right in the world. That is where the modern media has done its disservice...the help by condensing this tremendous amount of information into something digestable to the average person. The PROBLEM as you have pointed out repeatedly is that there is a BIAS in the spin/digestion that is generally unhealthy and untrue. So, when you lambast people for not investigating enough, please temper your ire with understanding that most people are not by nature researchers. It takes a special type of person to be able to read, categorize, understand and verify large amounts of information. There surely is no way of knowing something if you don't want to know it. The opinion manufacturing industry doesn't really hide things as much as render them uninteresting, the eye slides away, the ear goes deaf, the attention wanders. It works very well. But not on everybody. Not everybody is deaf to the truth, not everybody swallows the lies. Why's that? How do some people - many people - manage to stay awake and alert and undeceived? That has a bearing on complicity, don't you think? Keep in mind that desire does not always play a key role in knowing something. Simply put, you do not know what you do not know. You can spend your entire life learning new things and have no time to DO anything with that knowledge. This does not excuse everything, but it explains some things.It is quite true that everyone is not deaf to the truth...hence this list and the great work you have done in nutruring, maintaining and helping it grow along with JTF. Let me say Thanks right now...it has been very helpful for me personally, and quite a few people that I have pointed towards it. You also say that asking people that are trying to help if their actions are effective is heartless. I disagree wholeheartedly. If people do not stop and reassess what they are doing periodically, they risk causing more problems then they solve. That is the heart of learning and progress. There are other questions that I would ask you, but would do so off-list. But, someone who is trying to help, should never mind someone asking them questions, including is it working? My activities have not been as far-ranging and involved as your's...but I have spent quite a few years trying to get people to THINK and consider options to just believing everything they see, hear or read. I can bring up even more topics ranging from the purely ecomonic, to the environmental and finally to conspiracy related items in this mailing list, but it would be out of place here. You have done a good job balancing this list, and that is important. It is more than ok to ask someone what they are doing with their life. Most recently, me and my wife have started trying to expand our effort to help some orphans in Ukraine and Russia. My wife is Ukrainian and she and some of her family (in Russia and Ukraine) have suffered directly from Chernobyl explosion and other problems. I do not think that it is helpful to try to to see who can out help other people...nor do I think it is helpful or polite to blame people for the actions of others. People have different abilities and capabilities to help...I wish I had more time, but our 15 month-old son needs our attention as well, and he doesn't yet (but he will) understand why daddy needs to read for a while and not play with him. In the end, it is the DESIRE to help that will save us all...without the desire, nothing else can happen. I know that there will be at least ONE more person in the world that understands...and he can help teach others. --Randall Charlotte, NC ___ Heisenberg may have slept here If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my xe. --Abraham Lincoln ___ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran Hello Randall Keith, You said: We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're obliged to be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other people or other
Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran
"My point is not that people should not try to learn and do what is right and correct...it is that you CANNOT hold someone responsible for something that they have no CONTROL over. That is by its very definition, unfair."YouCANhold someone accountable for not acting locally to build a base from which to control something whichis attempting toharm to you, your family,oryour community.Someone who ignoreswhat should be resisted, should get the same attentionyou'd givesomeone who wishes to harm you. Mike R.Randall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith,My point is not that people should not try to learn and do what is right and correct...it is that you CANNOT hold someone responsible for something that they have no CONTROL over. That is by its very definition, unfair. That is middle ages thinking at best. To be blunt, I generally do not care what someone from another country thinks of my country when I know that their country is doing much of the same thing that they complain about my country doing. They are just being hypocrites--knowingly or unknowingly--and are usually just ignored.You say over and over that information has been out there for people to gleen for years and years. True. However, how many people prior to the Internet, had the ability to search for and VERIFY information with the ease of today? 30 years ago, you would have needed access to a well equipped library with a large microfilm/microfiche archive, the time to browse for the relevant articles, read and then understand them. I would venture a guess that most people simply did not have 10 to 20 hours a week to simply read everything of interest to find something that may not be right in the world. That is where the "modern" media has done its disservice...the "help" by condensing this tremendous amount of information into something digestable to the average person. The PROBLEM as you have pointed out repeatedly is that there is a BIAS in the spin/digestion that is generally unhealthy and untrue.So, when you lambast people for not investigating enough, please temper your ire with understanding that most people are not by nature researchers. It takes a special type of person to be able to read, categorize, understand and verify large amounts of information. There surely is no way of knowing something if you don't want to know it. The opinion manufacturing industry doesn't really hide things as much as render them uninteresting, the eye slides away, the ear goes deaf, the attention wanders. It works very well. But not on everybody. Not everybody is deaf to the truth, not everybody swallows the lies. Why's that? How do some people - many people - manage to stay awake and alert and undeceived? That has a bearing on complicity, don't you think?Keep in mind that desire does not always play a key role in knowing something. Simply put, you do not know what you do not know. You can spend your entire life learning new things and have no time to DO anything with that knowledge. This does not excuse everything, but it explains some things. It is quite true that everyone is not deaf to the truth...hence this list and the great work you have done in nutruring, maintaining and helping it grow along with JTF. Let me say "Thanks" right now...it has been very helpful for me personally, and quite a few people that I have pointed towards it.You also say that asking people that are trying to help if their actions are effective is heartless. I disagree wholeheartedly. If people do not stop and reassess what they are doing periodically, they risk causing more problems then they solve. That is the heart of learning and progress. There are other questions that I would ask you, but would do so off-list. But, someone who is trying to help, should never mind someone asking them questions, including "is it working?"My activities have not been as far-ranging and involved as your's...but I have spent quite a few years trying to get people to THINK and consider options to just believing everything they see, hear or read. I can bring up even more topics ranging from the purely ecomonic, to the environmental and finally to "conspiracy" related items in this mailing list, but it would be out of place here. You have done a good job balancing this list, and that is important.It is more than ok to ask someone what they are doing with their life. Most recently, me and my wife have started trying to expand our effort to help some orphans in Ukraine and Russia. My wife is Ukrainian and she and some of her family (in Russia and Ukraine) have suffered directly from Chernobyl explosion and other problems. I do not think that it is helpful to try to to see who can "out help" other people...nor do I think it is helpful or polite to blame people for the actions of others.People have different abilities and capabilities to help...I wish I had more time, but our 15 month-old son needs our attention as well, and he doesn't yet (but he will) understand why daddy needs to
Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran
Hello Randall Keith, You said: We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're obliged to be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other people or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is if you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not complicit because you're just a helpless slave. By your statement, in order for someone to even have a chance to avoid the responsibility for any bad actions by their government (ie. pollution, torture or nuking a country), it seems that they will need to be a person who: 1) Is capable of being aware of EVERYTHING that the government does domestically and internationally. To do this, you will need to posess God-like omniscience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience) since you will need to be aware of all actions performed by every single one of the MILLIONS of people that are connected with the US Federal government alone -- currently almost 2 million employees if you ignore the Military and the Postal Service. (http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm)How many more work for the various State and Local governments. How many people work for quasi-governmental institutions that have an effect on how the government operates? You quoted at least one http://www.pipa.org/. 2) Is able to influence ALL of those MILLIONS of people, or possess the knowledge to choose which of the MILLIONS of people you will need to influence to force all the remaining people that you cannot influence (time, distance, numbers of people to speak with, whatever) to do what you wish them to do. 3) Possess the knowledge of the correct thing to do, and how to communicate this to all of the people that you will need to influence to make what you want to happen occur in the manner that you desire. --- or --- Is it ok for someone to just complain about the actions of the government to avoid being labeled complicit, or do they have to actually DO something? If they have to do something, does it have to be effective? If so, how effective does their action have to be? How closely related to the government in question can someone be, and avoid responsibility for that government's actions? Are other countries that benefit from the actions of your government responsible for the actions of your government? If so, are the people of those other countries then also responsible for your governments actions?? What if you don't want to give the government money, but they take it under the threat of death or imprisonment? So...let me ask you personally: What are you doing? How effective have your actions been? What will you do in the future to become more effective? When do you become blameless? Are you aware of how every single dollar is spent by our government? Whose is bigger eh? :-) What am I doing. For what's most visible, how about Journey to Forever? Or running the Biofuel list and helping to keep it well fed over the last six years with the kind of information you specify, often against strong opposition by people who would much rather have it left comfortably buried out of sight where the forces we're discussing had put it, and put them too in a state of heedless and uncaring ignorance, consent, and indeed complicity. That information includes about the best set of tools I've seen for doing all the things you specify, including investigation, spin detection, source checking, counter-spin and counter-propaganda, and the kind of activism required if you're interested in a sustainable future. There's been much discussion here on activism, and on What can I do? That's all there too, with solutions offered. And I provide this resource. That's just for now, some things. If you go back through my history you'll find an unbroken record of opposing the forces we're discussing, in many ways and across a broad range of issues, and in many countries, mainly but not only as a campaigning journalist. It's something I've never stopped since I started it long ago in white racist South Africa, where life tended to be short and have ugly endings for people who felt they ought to take a hand in deciding what they were going to be complicit in. You can find some of the details of all this at our website, and elsewhere. I'm not planning on stopping. Have my actions been effective? Yes, they have. They are being now. There are very many people, VERY many, who could give you their own versions of that story. Together it all covers everything you specify and much besides. Today these people work both separately and together, sharing resources across a wide range of issues, the whole range perhaps, via the Internet, the great leveller. Are their actions proving effective? You could ask the WTO that question for instance, or Monsanto,
