Re: [Biofuel] adding carbon vs. carbon dioxide to the atmosphere
True. But then again nowhere near as true the consequences as you would like. Nature works in geologic time. Man's actions and the incumbent consequences are instantaneous in comparison. Tell a tree that the instantaneous nature of human induced global warming is the same as nature's method and then see which one it's capable of reacting to quicker. Doubtful that you're going to see trees pulling up roots overnite to migrate north in order to maintain their existance. A big difference between migrating hundreds of miles in thousands of years, one acorn at a time, and dieing out (becoming extinct) because the environment radically changed overnite. Cataclysmic change and extermination versus gradual change and adaptation. You tell me which is the less destructive model. Todd Swearingen of [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the most part, the earth is a closed system. Fossil fuels are a product of plants. When we burn them we return the CO2 to the environment from which the came. Releasing the so called green house gases that would return us to the green house effect that was responsible for the prolific plant life that created the fossil fuels in the beginning. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 0:04 am Subject: Re: [Biofuel] adding carbon vs. carbon dioxide to the atmosphere Rafal, Everything exerts its share. The question is what contribution do you wish to unite with your soul. Everything else and anything else is meaningless. TAS Rafal Szczesniak wrote: On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 10:06:05AM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: One thing that's not entirely clear to me is argument of biofuel not increasing amount of carbon in environment whereas fossil fuels do so. Nothing tricky about the issue at all Rafal. Carbon dioxide of plant origin returns to the plants with each growing cycle. This is called carbon neutral. Carbon dioxide of fossil fuel origin is not recycled annually, as it takes millions of years for coal, natural gas and petroleum to regenerate. Therefore it's considered to be carbon positive . That's why I mentioned about assumption of fossil carbon included or not in circulating carbon share. There are arguments that plant-based fuels aren't entirely carbon neutral due to the fossil fuels that go into their production at different steps in the process. However, they remain considerably more carbon negative than fossil fuels. True, agreed. Your trickiness as you call it is really more of a blind rather than anything perplexing, revolving around gross carbon dioxide outputs. Yes, essentially the same amount of carbon dioxide is produced annually, no matter if the sources are plant-based or of fossil origin. However, global CO2 levels essentially plateau after one year's use of plant-based fuels, while they continue to rise under a regimen of fossil fuel use. I meant trickiness rather as the kind of question raised in some talks and debates I've heard. It was the argument as to why plant- basedfuels are not so good for warming environment because of emission they introduce anyway. It was a bit like playing with facts to avoid those less comfortable for the speaker. Thank you! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] adding carbon vs. carbon dioxide to the atmosphere
For the most part, the earth is a closed system. Fossil fuels are a product of plants. When we burn them we return the CO2 to the environment from which the came. Releasing the so called green house gases that would return us to the green house effect that was responsible for the prolific plant life that created the fossil fuels in the beginning. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, July 16, 2005 0:04 am Subject: Re: [Biofuel] adding carbon vs. carbon dioxide to the atmosphere Rafal, Everything exerts its share. The question is what contribution do you wish to unite with your soul. Everything else and anything else is meaningless. TAS Rafal Szczesniak wrote: On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 10:06:05AM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: One thing that's not entirely clear to me is argument of biofuel not increasing amount of carbon in environment whereas fossil fuels do so. Nothing tricky about the issue at all Rafal. Carbon dioxide of plant origin returns to the plants with each growing cycle. This is called carbon neutral. Carbon dioxide of fossil fuel origin is not recycled annually, as it takes millions of years for coal, natural gas and petroleum to regenerate. Therefore it's considered to be carbon positive . That's why I mentioned about assumption of fossil carbon included or not in circulating carbon share. There are arguments that plant-based fuels aren't entirely carbon neutral due to the fossil fuels that go into their production at different steps in the process. However, they remain considerably more carbon negative than fossil fuels. True, agreed. Your trickiness as you call it is really more of a blind rather than anything perplexing, revolving around gross carbon dioxide outputs. Yes, essentially the same amount of carbon dioxide is produced annually, no matter if the sources are plant-based or of fossil origin. However, global CO2 levels essentially plateau after one year's use of plant-based fuels, while they continue to rise under a regimen of fossil fuel use. I meant trickiness rather as the kind of question raised in some talks and debates I've heard. It was the argument as to why plant- basedfuels are not so good for warming environment because of emission they introduce anyway. It was a bit like playing with facts to avoid those less comfortable for the speaker. Thank you! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] adding carbon vs. carbon dioxide to the atmosphere
One thing that's not entirely clear to me is argument of biofuel not increasing amount of carbon in environment whereas fossil fuels do so. Nothing tricky about the issue at all Rafal. Carbon dioxide of plant origin returns to the plants with each growing cycle. This is called carbon neutral. Carbon dioxide of fossil fuel origin is not recycled annually, as it takes millions of years for coal, natural gas and petroleum to regenerate. Therefore it's considered to be carbon positive . There are arguments that plant-based fuels aren't entirely carbon neutral due to the fossil fuels that go into their production at different steps in the process. However, they remain considerably more carbon negative than fossil fuels. Your trickiness as you call it is really more of a blind rather than anything perplexing, revolving around gross carbon dioxide outputs. Yes, essentially the same amount of carbon dioxide is produced annually, no matter if the sources are plant-based or of fossil origin. However, global CO2 levels essentially plateau after one year's use of plant-based fuels, while they continue to rise under a regimen of fossil fuel use. One system is a cycle of roughly equivalent debit and credit. The other system is one of perpetual debit. Todd Swearingen Rafal Szczesniak wrote: Hi all, One thing that's not entirely clear to me is argument of biofuel not increasing amount of carbon in environment whereas fossil fuels do so. So far I thought the whole problem of global warming was mostly due to rasing amount of carbon dioxide and substances of similar properties, not the carbon itself. Combustion of biofuel certainly leaves amount of circulating carbon at constant level. Doing same with fossil fuel like oil derivatives does not, but (theoretically) in the same time we have to assume that carbon fuel deposits do not take share in carbon in the environment. That's likely to be a common assumption and fairly sensible. The question remains whether preventing the warming is more about limiting amount of carbon introduced from under the ground (which in turn often ends up as carbon dioxide) or rather limiting emission of carbon dioxide itself ? The former is more general approach, and the latter is more concentrating at one problem at a time. It's a bit tricky issue, but it's interesting for clarity in this matter. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] adding carbon vs. carbon dioxide to the atmosphere
On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 10:06:05AM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: One thing that's not entirely clear to me is argument of biofuel not increasing amount of carbon in environment whereas fossil fuels do so. Nothing tricky about the issue at all Rafal. Carbon dioxide of plant origin returns to the plants with each growing cycle. This is called carbon neutral. Carbon dioxide of fossil fuel origin is not recycled annually, as it takes millions of years for coal, natural gas and petroleum to regenerate. Therefore it's considered to be carbon positive . That's why I mentioned about assumption of fossil carbon included or not in circulating carbon share. There are arguments that plant-based fuels aren't entirely carbon neutral due to the fossil fuels that go into their production at different steps in the process. However, they remain considerably more carbon negative than fossil fuels. True, agreed. Your trickiness as you call it is really more of a blind rather than anything perplexing, revolving around gross carbon dioxide outputs. Yes, essentially the same amount of carbon dioxide is produced annually, no matter if the sources are plant-based or of fossil origin. However, global CO2 levels essentially plateau after one year's use of plant-based fuels, while they continue to rise under a regimen of fossil fuel use. I meant trickiness rather as the kind of question raised in some talks and debates I've heard. It was the argument as to why plant-based fuels are not so good for warming environment because of emission they introduce anyway. It was a bit like playing with facts to avoid those less comfortable for the speaker. Thank you! -- cheers, Rafal Szczesniak **mir[at]diament.ists.pwr.wroc.pl Samba Team member mi***[at]samba.org +-+ *BSD, GNU/Linux and Samba http://www.samba.org +-+ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] adding carbon vs. carbon dioxide to the atmosphere
Rafal, Everything exerts its share. The question is what contribution do you wish to unite with your soul. Everything else and anything else is meaningless. TAS Rafal Szczesniak wrote: On Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 10:06:05AM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: One thing that's not entirely clear to me is argument of biofuel not increasing amount of carbon in environment whereas fossil fuels do so. Nothing tricky about the issue at all Rafal. Carbon dioxide of plant origin returns to the plants with each growing cycle. This is called carbon neutral. Carbon dioxide of fossil fuel origin is not recycled annually, as it takes millions of years for coal, natural gas and petroleum to regenerate. Therefore it's considered to be carbon positive . That's why I mentioned about assumption of fossil carbon included or not in circulating carbon share. There are arguments that plant-based fuels aren't entirely carbon neutral due to the fossil fuels that go into their production at different steps in the process. However, they remain considerably more carbon negative than fossil fuels. True, agreed. Your trickiness as you call it is really more of a blind rather than anything perplexing, revolving around gross carbon dioxide outputs. Yes, essentially the same amount of carbon dioxide is produced annually, no matter if the sources are plant-based or of fossil origin. However, global CO2 levels essentially plateau after one year's use of plant-based fuels, while they continue to rise under a regimen of fossil fuel use. I meant trickiness rather as the kind of question raised in some talks and debates I've heard. It was the argument as to why plant-based fuels are not so good for warming environment because of emission they introduce anyway. It was a bit like playing with facts to avoid those less comfortable for the speaker. Thank you! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
