Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
hope everyone understands Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: So again the BBC presents information for shock value, without putting it in perspective. Looking at a Boeing 777-200LR the fuel consumption is: Fuel consumption in 800 miles is about 24,000lb of fuel 300Lb/Fuel/Seat/3000 Miles. (Boeing spec) That is 10 miles/pound/seat of fuel Or 68 mile/gallon/seat. Compare that to your average car you don't even get close. Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris lloyd Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:41 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Dear Bob Allen was Re: There's no proof ofglobalwarming Just seen this on our BBC TV channel every 800 miles travelled by a jumbo jet dumps 28 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. Chris Wessex Ferret Club www.wessexferretclub.co.uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
Well that's probably what the chemicals that they are dispersing are supposed to achieve ;-) bob allen wrote: hope everyone understands Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: So again the BBC presents information for shock value, without putting it in perspective. Looking at a Boeing 777-200LR the fuel consumption is: Fuel consumption in 800 miles is about 24,000lb of fuel 300Lb/Fuel/Seat/3000 Miles. (Boeing spec) That is 10 miles/pound/seat of fuel Or 68 mile/gallon/seat. Compare that to your average car you don't even get close. Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Chris lloyd Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:41 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Dear Bob Allen was Re: There's no proof ofglobalwarming Just seen this on our BBC TV channel " every 800 miles travelled by a jumbo jet dumps 28 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere." Chris Wessex Ferret Club www.wessexferretclub.co.uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
Mark, Your conclusion below is inaccurate. It compares a fully loaded vehicle (airliner) and the extrapolated fuel economy per passenger to the fuel economy of a car with but one passenger. Apples to apples, both vehicles need to be fully loaded when compared. A fully loaded, 301 seat, Boeing 777-200LR nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 68 passenger miles per gallon (PMPG not MPG). (62.6 PMPG using http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FR77720L.htm , premised upon standard tanks and a specific gravity of 0.81 for Jet A fuel.) In comparison, a fully loaded, 4 seat,Volkswagen Jetta or Golf, nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 200 PMPG. More so, the BBC did not do as claimed, present[ing] information for shock value, without putting it into perspective. Were they to have conducted the rest of the exercise and presented it in its entire perspective, the facts would have proven shockingly more in disfavor of air travel. That said, even the rudimentary apples to apples comparison above can't be deemed virtually accurate. Passenger mile fuel economy would be even lower on maximum range trips if the Boeing model with optional tanks were used, as it takes fuel to transport fuel. And, of course, it takes fuel to transport fuel to refueling stations on the ground as well. Including this type of cradle-to-grave energy variable would make the Jetta's passenger mile fuel economy less as well. Transportation fuel economy is best, first by rail, second by bus, third by fuel efficient sedan and fourth by air. Motocyclettas fit in there somewhere. But I'll let those with well paraffined slide rules calculate the minutia on this one. Todd Swearingen hope everyone understands Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: So again the BBC presents information for shock value, without putting it in perspective. Looking at a Boeing 777-200LR the fuel consumption is: Fuel consumption in 800 miles is about 24,000lb of fuel 300Lb/Fuel/Seat/3000 Miles. (Boeing spec) That is 10 miles/pound/seat of fuel Or 68 mile/gallon/seat. Compare that to your average car you don't even get close. Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris lloyd Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:41 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Dear Bob Allen was Re: There's no proof ofglobalwarming Just seen this on our BBC TV channel every 800 miles travelled by a jumbo jet dumps 28 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. Chris Wessex Ferret Club www.wessexferretclub.co.uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. At least the airplane usually has more than one person in it... whereas most the cars I see here have one person in them most of the time. All the people who I see driving to work each morning, alone, in their suburbans, are getting about 14 PMPG. woo hoo. I figure I get about 210 PMPG when I take the bus. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, Your conclusion below is inaccurate. It compares a fully loaded vehicle (airliner) and the extrapolated fuel economy per passenger to the fuel economy of a car with but one passenger. Apples to apples, both vehicles need to be fully loaded when compared. A fully loaded, 301 seat, Boeing 777-200LR nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 68 passenger miles per gallon (PMPG not MPG). (62.6 PMPG using http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FR77720L.htm , premised upon standard tanks and a specific gravity of 0.81 for Jet A fuel.) In comparison, a fully loaded, 4 seat,Volkswagen Jetta or Golf, nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 200 PMPG. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. Perhaps, to achieve real world passenger mile fuel economy averages, presuming an average occupancy rate per vehicle could be achieved. No doubt someone has done that somewhere. At least you can bank on the fact that the airlines have. Still, even if 50% occupancy was considered the average, that particular airliner would only net a 31-34 PMPG, whereas the Jetta would net 100 PMPG. Seventy percent occupancy versus thirty-three percent? That would be approximately 43-47 PMPG vs 66 PMPG for the Jetta. Almost no matter how you slice it, air transportation at the industrial scale remains the least fuel efficient method. Todd Swearingen I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. At least the airplane usually has more than one person in it... whereas most the cars I see here have one person in them most of the time. All the people who I see driving to work each morning, alone, in their suburbans, are getting about 14 PMPG. woo hoo. I figure I get about 210 PMPG when I take the bus. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, Your conclusion below is inaccurate. It compares a fully loaded vehicle (airliner) and the extrapolated fuel economy per passenger to the fuel economy of a car with but one passenger. Apples to apples, both vehicles need to be fully loaded when compared. A fully loaded, 301 seat, Boeing 777-200LR nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 68 passenger miles per gallon (PMPG not MPG). (62.6 PMPG using http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FR77720L.htm , premised upon standard tanks and a specific gravity of 0.81 for Jet A fuel.) In comparison, a fully loaded, 4 seat,Volkswagen Jetta or Golf, nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 200 PMPG. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
Okay, in this case I take your point that with average occupancy rate the jetta is more efficient. But it is also roughtly twice the mpg as the average car in the US. So, I still think that 30 PMPG is more realistic an average for car travel about the same as the efficient airplane. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. Perhaps, to achieve real world passenger mile fuel economy averages, presuming an average occupancy rate per vehicle could be achieved. No doubt someone has done that somewhere. At least you can bank on the fact that the airlines have. Still, even if 50% occupancy was considered the average, that particular airliner would only net a 31-34 PMPG, whereas the Jetta would net 100 PMPG. Seventy percent occupancy versus thirty-three percent? That would be approximately 43-47 PMPG vs 66 PMPG for the Jetta. Almost no matter how you slice it, air transportation at the industrial scale remains the least fuel efficient method. Todd Swearingen I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. At least the airplane usually has more than one person in it... whereas most the cars I see here have one person in them most of the time. All the people who I see driving to work each morning, alone, in their suburbans, are getting about 14 PMPG. woo hoo. I figure I get about 210 PMPG when I take the bus. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, Your conclusion below is inaccurate. It compares a fully loaded vehicle (airliner) and the extrapolated fuel economy per passenger to the fuel economy of a car with but one passenger. Apples to apples, both vehicles need to be fully loaded when compared. A fully loaded, 301 seat, Boeing 777-200LR nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 68 passenger miles per gallon (PMPG not MPG). (62.6 PMPG using http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FR77720L.htm , premised upon standard tanks and a specific gravity of 0.81 for Jet A fuel.) In comparison, a fully loaded, 4 seat,Volkswagen Jetta or Golf, nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 200 PMPG. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
Not yet Zeke. If the airline wants to tout it's highest fuel economy vehicle, so can the ground transportation sector. Using you're method you'd be giving an unfair leg up to the airline by accepting their high fuel efficiency model but handicapping ground transport by introducing an average efficiency value. Best to best. Average to average. Worst to worst. At least they're getting off the hook by not being scrutinized under an emissions regimen (which is actually where this thread started, come to think of it), where the Jetta would would cash in nicely with B-100 as nearly carbon neutral, compared to their 100% carbon negative. Todd Swearingen Zeke Yewdall wrote: Okay, in this case I take your point that with average occupancy rate the jetta is more efficient. But it is also roughtly twice the mpg as the average car in the US. So, I still think that 30 PMPG is more realistic an average for car travel about the same as the efficient airplane. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. Perhaps, to achieve real world passenger mile fuel economy averages, presuming an average occupancy rate per vehicle could be achieved. No doubt someone has done that somewhere. At least you can bank on the fact that the airlines have. Still, even if 50% occupancy was considered the average, that particular airliner would only net a 31-34 PMPG, whereas the Jetta would net 100 PMPG. Seventy percent occupancy versus thirty-three percent? That would be approximately 43-47 PMPG vs 66 PMPG for the Jetta. Almost no matter how you slice it, air transportation at the industrial scale remains the least fuel efficient method. Todd Swearingen I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. At least the airplane usually has more than one person in it... whereas most the cars I see here have one person in them most of the time. All the people who I see driving to work each morning, alone, in their suburbans, are getting about 14 PMPG. woo hoo. I figure I get about 210 PMPG when I take the bus. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, Your conclusion below is inaccurate. It compares a fully loaded vehicle (airliner) and the extrapolated fuel economy per passenger to the fuel economy of a car with but one passenger. Apples to apples, both vehicles need to be fully loaded when compared. A fully loaded, 301 seat, Boeing 777-200LR nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 68 passenger miles per gallon (PMPG not MPG). (62.6 PMPG using http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FR77720L.htm , premised upon standard tanks and a specific gravity of 0.81 for Jet A fuel.) In comparison, a fully loaded, 4 seat,Volkswagen Jetta or Golf, nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 200 PMPG. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
Looking at a Boeing 777-200LR the fuel consumption is: Fuel consumption in 800 miles is about 24,000lb of fuel 300Lb/Fuel/Seat/3000 Miles. (Boeing spec) That is 10 miles/pound/seat of fuel Or 68 mile/gallon/seat. Compare that to your average car you don't even get close. About 5% of pollution from cars gets into the upper atmosphere but nearly 100% of a jumbos pollution gets there. The UK government has found that to meet its pollution targets it would have to stop any increase in air travel which now causes 85% of atmospheric pollution over the UK.Chris. Wessex Ferret Club www.wessexferretclub.co.uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] new topic to get my name out of here...
So, what is the fuel economy of the average airplanes, instead of the efficient ones? I have no idea how different airplanes compare. Speaking of emissions, what about using biodiesel in airplane engines. I know that quite a few people are excited about the new compression ignition airplane engines that can burn jet fuel instead of aviation gas, because it opens up the possibility of using biodiesel for small airplanes. So this implies that jet fuel and biodiesel are somewhat similar? I would think that the gell point of biodiesel would be a big problem at 30,000 feet though. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not yet Zeke. If the airline wants to tout it's highest fuel economy vehicle, so can the ground transportation sector. Using you're method you'd be giving an unfair leg up to the airline by accepting their high fuel efficiency model but handicapping ground transport by introducing an average efficiency value. Best to best. Average to average. Worst to worst. At least they're getting off the hook by not being scrutinized under an emissions regimen (which is actually where this thread started, come to think of it), where the Jetta would would cash in nicely with B-100 as nearly carbon neutral, compared to their 100% carbon negative. Todd Swearingen Zeke Yewdall wrote: Okay, in this case I take your point that with average occupancy rate the jetta is more efficient. But it is also roughtly twice the mpg as the average car in the US. So, I still think that 30 PMPG is more realistic an average for car travel about the same as the efficient airplane. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. Perhaps, to achieve real world passenger mile fuel economy averages, presuming an average occupancy rate per vehicle could be achieved. No doubt someone has done that somewhere. At least you can bank on the fact that the airlines have. Still, even if 50% occupancy was considered the average, that particular airliner would only net a 31-34 PMPG, whereas the Jetta would net 100 PMPG. Seventy percent occupancy versus thirty-three percent? That would be approximately 43-47 PMPG vs 66 PMPG for the Jetta. Almost no matter how you slice it, air transportation at the industrial scale remains the least fuel efficient method. Todd Swearingen I think it's actually more accurate to compare each vehical in it's most commonly filled state. At least the airplane usually has more than one person in it... whereas most the cars I see here have one person in them most of the time. All the people who I see driving to work each morning, alone, in their suburbans, are getting about 14 PMPG. woo hoo. I figure I get about 210 PMPG when I take the bus. On 9/22/05, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, Your conclusion below is inaccurate. It compares a fully loaded vehicle (airliner) and the extrapolated fuel economy per passenger to the fuel economy of a car with but one passenger. Apples to apples, both vehicles need to be fully loaded when compared. A fully loaded, 301 seat, Boeing 777-200LR nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 68 passenger miles per gallon (PMPG not MPG). (62.6 PMPG using http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FR77720L.htm , premised upon standard tanks and a specific gravity of 0.81 for Jet A fuel.) In comparison, a fully loaded, 4 seat,Volkswagen Jetta or Golf, nets an equivalent fuel economy of approximately 200 PMPG. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
