Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine
Dag Pieter Great ! Thanks a lot. You say it is all organic material. Doesn't the sulfuric acid do any harm, or is that all used by breaking down the cellulose ? It seems so, from what Fred said, but at any rate, even if not, it will certainly be broken down safely in a properly made hot compost pile (thermophilic, aerobic). You wouldn't try to compost the waste lignin by itself, it should be mixed in thoroughly with all the other material used in making compost normally. (As with disposing of the biodiesel glycerine by-product this way.) You asked : Why not ? Well, for the same reason as why we don't find any information about producing nuclear power or other poluting methods on your site. Aren't we more or less idealists ? Well, I dunno if we're idealists, quite, or at all. We're development workers, and we see environment issues as an integral part of that. As did the so-called Earth Summit, Rio 1992 - it's proper name was the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED), at long last putting the two under the same hat where they belong, until a bunch of silly greenies went and changed it to Earth Summit, which de-emphasises the people bit. Anyway, I don't think the Fuel from sawdust method is polluting, all the chemicals used and all possible by-products are safely biodegradeable, all well-known to and easily handled by the biosphere, unlike concentrated nuclear wastes, POPs and so on. Best wishes Keith Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine Thanks Ken, I hope I don't insult anybody, but as far as I remember I found the way to make ethanol out of sawdust on journeytoforever. Fuel From Sawdust http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#sawdust If the process produces poison material, why would it be on this site ? Why not? Compost it, Pieter. It's all organic stuff, it'll break down harmlessly in a properly made hot compost pile. http://journeytoforever.org/compost.html Composting: Journey to Forever Best Keith Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine on 2/27/04 10:48 AM, Pieter Koole at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am making ethanol on a very very small scale ( experimenting a bit ) from newspapers etc. What is the best thing to do with the black stuff ( lignine isn't it ? ). Is it poison ? Can I use it somehow? In general, any organic mixture that's BLACK is toxic, probly carcinogenic. Blackness is caused by multiple aromatic fused rings -- polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, of which graphite is the extreme version. Do a Google search on polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Is there a way to re-use the sulphuric acid (98%) I don't think so Does anyone know whether alcohol can be dried by electrolysis ? I've never heard of it -- doesn't mean it's not possible somehow, but I doubt it -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine
x-charset ISO-8859-1Great ! Thanks a lot. You say it is all organic material. Doesn't the sulfuric acid do any harm, or is that all used by breaking down the cellulose ? You asked : Why not ? Well, for the same reason as why we don't find any information about producing nuclear power or other poluting methods on your site. Aren't we more or less idealists ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine Thanks Ken, I hope I don't insult anybody, but as far as I remember I found the way to make ethanol out of sawdust on journeytoforever. Fuel From Sawdust http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#sawdust If the process produces poison material, why would it be on this site ? Why not? Compost it, Pieter. It's all organic stuff, it'll break down harmlessly in a properly made hot compost pile. http://journeytoforever.org/compost.html Composting: Journey to Forever Best Keith Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine on 2/27/04 10:48 AM, Pieter Koole at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am making ethanol on a very very small scale ( experimenting a bit ) from newspapers etc. What is the best thing to do with the black stuff ( lignine isn't it ? ). Is it poison ? Can I use it somehow? In general, any organic mixture that's BLACK is toxic, probly carcinogenic. Blackness is caused by multiple aromatic fused rings -- polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, of which graphite is the extreme version. Do a Google search on polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Is there a way to re-use the sulphuric acid (98%) I don't think so Does anyone know whether alcohol can be dried by electrolysis ? I've never heard of it -- doesn't mean it's not possible somehow, but I doubt it -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine
x-charset ISO-8859-1This is a very interesting process. Don't worry, I am not going to produce or sell ethanol, but just want to use my old newspapers and some waste wood for producing ethanol to run my lawnmower and outboard motor on. What carbonate slurry ( found on the site ) should I use and how should I use it ? Is that the way to dry the alcohol, and if it is, how dry can I get it ? How do both recover processes work ? ( for sulphuric acid and the carbonate ? ). Thanks a lot for the answers. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Fred Enga [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 6:39 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] A question about lignine Hello All. The lignin by product of the acid hydrolysis is not a poison. We produce ethanol from wood residue using the Gaian process of concentrated sulphuric acid hydrolysis. The Lignin is the carbon skeleton of the wood and has similar properties to Charcoal. In some processes a lignin sulphate compound is formed, but not in this process - that's more associated with the Kraft and sulphite paper industry. These versions of lignin find uses in the manufacture of resins, other forms of lignin are used as binders for road surfacing. In our process we find the best use to be as a fuel, in fact we power our complete process using the combustion of the lignin produced in the hydrolysis stage, with a significant energy production over our requirements that we can produce electricity with the surplus steam. Concerning the reuse of the sulphuric acid, we recover and reuse, after reconcentrating it. Unfortunately we use a simulated moving bed chromatography process which is not 'suitable' for home use. The older was is to sacrifice the acid by neutralising it with lime which give a gypsum by-product which has little to no further use. For those who want a little more info on ethanol production from wood residue, there is a fairly detailed process review on our website www.gaianbioenergy.com Hope this helps Regards Fred Enga -Original Message- From: Pieter Koole Sent: February 27, 2004 7:27 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine Thanks Ken, I hope I don't insult anybody, but as far as I remember I found the way to make ethanol out of sawdust on journeytoforever. If the process produces poison material, why would it be on this site ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine on 2/27/04 10:48 AM, Pieter Koole at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am making ethanol on a very very small scale ( experimenting a bit ) from newspapers etc. What is the best thing to do with the black stuff ( lignine isn't it ? ). Is it poison ? Can I use it somehow? In general, any organic mixture that's BLACK is toxic, probly carcinogenic. Blackness is caused by multiple aromatic fused rings -- polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, of which graphite is the extreme version. Do a Google search on polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Is there a way to re-use the sulphuric acid (98%) I don't think so Does anyone know whether alcohol can be dried by electrolysis ? I've never heard of it -- doesn't mean it's not possible somehow, but I doubt it -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey
Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine
on 2/27/04 10:48 AM, Pieter Koole at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am making ethanol on a very very small scale ( experimenting a bit ) from newspapers etc. What is the best thing to do with the black stuff ( lignine isn't it ? ). Is it poison ? Can I use it somehow? In general, any organic mixture that's BLACK is toxic, probly carcinogenic. Blackness is caused by multiple aromatic fused rings -- polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, of which graphite is the extreme version. Do a Google search on polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Is there a way to re-use the sulphuric acid (98%) I don't think so Does anyone know whether alcohol can be dried by electrolysis ? I've never heard of it -- doesn't mean it's not possible somehow, but I doubt it -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine
x-charset ISO-8859-1Thanks Ken, I hope I don't insult anybody, but as far as I remember I found the way to make ethanol out of sawdust on journeytoforever. If the process produces poison material, why would it be on this site ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine on 2/27/04 10:48 AM, Pieter Koole at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am making ethanol on a very very small scale ( experimenting a bit ) from newspapers etc. What is the best thing to do with the black stuff ( lignine isn't it ? ). Is it poison ? Can I use it somehow? In general, any organic mixture that's BLACK is toxic, probly carcinogenic. Blackness is caused by multiple aromatic fused rings -- polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, of which graphite is the extreme version. Do a Google search on polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Is there a way to re-use the sulphuric acid (98%) I don't think so Does anyone know whether alcohol can be dried by electrolysis ? I've never heard of it -- doesn't mean it's not possible somehow, but I doubt it -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine
Thanks Ken, I hope I don't insult anybody, but as far as I remember I found the way to make ethanol out of sawdust on journeytoforever. Fuel From Sawdust http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#sawdust If the process produces poison material, why would it be on this site ? Why not? Compost it, Pieter. It's all organic stuff, it'll break down harmlessly in a properly made hot compost pile. http://journeytoforever.org/compost.html Composting: Journey to Forever Best Keith Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine on 2/27/04 10:48 AM, Pieter Koole at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am making ethanol on a very very small scale ( experimenting a bit ) from newspapers etc. What is the best thing to do with the black stuff ( lignine isn't it ? ). Is it poison ? Can I use it somehow? In general, any organic mixture that's BLACK is toxic, probly carcinogenic. Blackness is caused by multiple aromatic fused rings -- polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, of which graphite is the extreme version. Do a Google search on polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Is there a way to re-use the sulphuric acid (98%) I don't think so Does anyone know whether alcohol can be dried by electrolysis ? I've never heard of it -- doesn't mean it's not possible somehow, but I doubt it -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] A question about lignine
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hello All. The lignin by product of the acid hydrolysis is not a poison. We produce ethanol from wood residue using the Gaian process of concentrated sulphuric acid hydrolysis. The Lignin is the carbon skeleton of the wood and has similar properties to Charcoal. In some processes a lignin sulphate compound is formed, but not in this process - that's more associated with the Kraft and sulphite paper industry. These versions of lignin find uses in the manufacture of resins, other forms of lignin are used as binders for road surfacing. In our process we find the best use to be as a fuel, in fact we power our complete process using the combustion of the lignin produced in the hydrolysis stage, with a significant energy production over our requirements that we can produce electricity with the surplus steam. Concerning the reuse of the sulphuric acid, we recover and reuse, after reconcentrating it. Unfortunately we use a simulated moving bed chromatography process which is not 'suitable' for home use. The older was is to sacrifice the acid by neutralising it with lime which give a gypsum by-product which has little to no further use. For those who want a little more info on ethanol production from wood residue, there is a fairly detailed process review on our website www.gaianbioenergy.com Hope this helps Regards Fred Enga -Original Message- From: Pieter Koole Sent: February 27, 2004 7:27 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine Thanks Ken, I hope I don't insult anybody, but as far as I remember I found the way to make ethanol out of sawdust on journeytoforever. If the process produces poison material, why would it be on this site ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine on 2/27/04 10:48 AM, Pieter Koole at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am making ethanol on a very very small scale ( experimenting a bit ) from newspapers etc. What is the best thing to do with the black stuff ( lignine isn't it ? ). Is it poison ? Can I use it somehow? In general, any organic mixture that's BLACK is toxic, probly carcinogenic. Blackness is caused by multiple aromatic fused rings -- polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, of which graphite is the extreme version. Do a Google search on polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Is there a way to re-use the sulphuric acid (98%) I don't think so Does anyone know whether alcohol can be dried by electrolysis ? I've never heard of it -- doesn't mean it's not possible somehow, but I doubt it -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
