Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets?
Keith- The vegetable-based lubricating oil that is referred to, is mandatory to use in Elsbett converted engines, according to the Elsbett instructions. However, this lubricating oil, made by Fuchs, is not sold in the U.S. so this poses a problem. However, I have not been able, so far, to find any other Elsbett customers in the U.S. who seem concerned by this. How about synthetic oil? I have recently ordered a new Amsoil oil - European Car Formula 5W-40 !00% Synthetic (Product Code: afl) - that meets or exceeds API CI-4, VW 505.00 and various other specifications. (My car is a 1997 VW Jetta TDI.) I have also ordered test kits so that I can periodically have the oil tested for the polymerization condition, as well as other properties. For information on this and more information than you ever wanted to know about lubricating oil and other VW TDI topics, go to: http://forums.tdiclub.com/postlist.php?Cat=Board=UBB5 Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project http://www.sustainableenergyproject.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets?
Hello Bruce Thanks very much for this, and for the references. The second one I had, but not the other two. Needs some study, and I have to do a bit more exploring. Alexander Noack of Elsbett made the same statement to me regarding the lubricating oil contamination problems when using soybean SVO. (We were discussing only SVO so I am not sure if he also meant to imply soybean based Biodiesel as well.) I did some research on the lubrication oil contamination issue and polymerization issue and the following links may be helpful: http://www.missouri.edu/~pavt0689/Research_Needs_Resulting.pdf http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/199909 02_gen-228.pdf http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/biodiesel21.html The vegetable-based lubricating oil that is referred to, is mandatory to use in Elsbett converted engines, according to the Elsbett instructions. However, this lubricating oil, made by Fuchs, is not sold in the U.S. so this poses a problem. However, I have not been able, so far, to find any other Elsbett customers in the U.S. who seem concerned by this. How about synthetic oil? Thanks again Best wishes Keith Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project http://www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets? Hakan, MM MM, You asked about VW, Europe and biodiesel. In Europe the VW diesels are certified for RME fuel (biodiesel). The are clearly stating that in the specifications. RME = Rapeseed Methyl Esters. They don't like soy biodiesel. It's been thought that this is more political than anything else - Europe grows rapeseed, the US grows soy. But biodiesel is biodiesel is biodiesel. Which is what the EPA says with their substantial equivalence for all feedstocks, although the NBB only tested virgin soy biodiesel. But there could be more to it. Rachel Burton posted a link to Lyle's site and her report on a recent SVO workshop with Elsbett engineer Alexander Noack. It included this interesting bit: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. http://www.biofuels.coop/blog/archives/66.html Energy Blog: Elsbett Workshop Slightly different, but if you have a look at the new Euro standard for biodiesel, here: National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds See Europe EN 14214, scroll down to Oxidation stability hrs; 110¡C - 6 hours min. Only Europe has such a standard, and the concern is polymerisation due to oxidation. The Iodine No. standard is 120; others are lower, but the US ASTM D-6751 doesn't specify an IV. The higher the IV the more it's a drying oil that will polymerise, the highest being linseed and fish oil and the lowest coconut and palm kernel. For an explanation see: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine So have a look at these Iodine Values: Rapeseed oil, h. eruc. - 97 to 105 Rapeseed oil, i. eruc. - 110 to 115 Soybean oil - 125 to 1 So. I think there's some substance to this, I'll find out more soon. Meeting the German or Austrian standard isn't difficult, but the Euro standard might be, especially if we think bubblewashing is a great idea. Might have to drop bubblewashing, go for simple stirring instead (and making the stuff properly in the first place). Might have to use an additive as well. And, might have to drop soy too. Something tells me the ASTM standard isn't about to adopt these Euro oxidation limits any time soon. Anyway, both VW and Mercedes seem to be going for Fischer Tropsch diesel from biomass. Perhaps the reason they prefer it to biodiesel might be that it gives them a nice industrial, high-tech, expensive operation to invest in, well beyond the reach of this shabby riff-raff that's taken to making biodiesel in their garages and now the whole thing's right out of corporate control. :-) Best Keith Hakan At 20:16 19/05/2004, you wrote: I have collected four testimonials to high-mileage VW Diesels that came up in discussion. I have seen many such testimonials over the years, but I have been meaning to make a few
Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets?
Hakan, MM MM, You asked about VW, Europe and biodiesel. In Europe the VW diesels are certified for RME fuel (biodiesel). The are clearly stating that in the specifications. RME = Rapeseed Methyl Esters. They don't like soy biodiesel. It's been thought that this is more political than anything else - Europe grows rapeseed, the US grows soy. But biodiesel is biodiesel is biodiesel. Which is what the EPA says with their substantial equivalence for all feedstocks, although the NBB only tested virgin soy biodiesel. But there could be more to it. Rachel Burton posted a link to Lyle's site and her report on a recent SVO workshop with Elsbett engineer Alexander Noack. It included this interesting bit: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. http://www.biofuels.coop/blog/archives/66.html Energy Blog: Elsbett Workshop Slightly different, but if you have a look at the new Euro standard for biodiesel, here: National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds See Europe EN 14214, scroll down to Oxidation stability hrs; 110¡C - 6 hours min. Only Europe has such a standard, and the concern is polymerisation due to oxidation. The Iodine No. standard is 120; others are lower, but the US ASTM D-6751 doesn't specify an IV. The higher the IV the more it's a drying oil that will polymerise, the highest being linseed and fish oil and the lowest coconut and palm kernel. For an explanation see: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine So have a look at these Iodine Values: Rapeseed oil, h. eruc. - 97 to 105 Rapeseed oil, i. eruc. - 110 to 115 Soybean oil - 125 to 1 So. I think there's some substance to this, I'll find out more soon. Meeting the German or Austrian standard isn't difficult, but the Euro standard might be, especially if we think bubblewashing is a great idea. Might have to drop bubblewashing, go for simple stirring instead (and making the stuff properly in the first place). Might have to use an additive as well. And, might have to drop soy too. Something tells me the ASTM standard isn't about to adopt these Euro oxidation limits any time soon. Anyway, both VW and Mercedes seem to be going for Fischer Tropsch diesel from biomass. Perhaps the reason they prefer it to biodiesel might be that it gives them a nice industrial, high-tech, expensive operation to invest in, well beyond the reach of this shabby riff-raff that's taken to making biodiesel in their garages and now the whole thing's right out of corporate control. :-) Best Keith Hakan At 20:16 19/05/2004, you wrote: I have collected four testimonials to high-mileage VW Diesels that came up in discussion. I have seen many such testimonials over the years, but I have been meaning to make a few points in response to them. These came up recently, in response to reports that the two gasoline hybrids have not been getting as good mileage as they advertise. My comments are below the four testimonials. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets?
Alexander Noack of Elsbett made the same statement to me regarding the lubricating oil contamination problems when using soybean SVO. (We were discussing only SVO so I am not sure if he also meant to imply soybean based Biodiesel as well.) I did some research on the lubrication oil contamination issue and polymerization issue and the following links may be helpful: http://www.missouri.edu/~pavt0689/Research_Needs_Resulting.pdf http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19990902_gen-228.pdf http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/biodiesel21.html The vegetable-based lubricating oil that is referred to, is mandatory to use in Elsbett converted engines, according to the Elsbett instructions. However, this lubricating oil, made by Fuchs, is not sold in the U.S. so this poses a problem. However, I have not been able, so far, to find any other Elsbett customers in the U.S. who seem concerned by this. Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project http://www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets? Hakan, MM MM, You asked about VW, Europe and biodiesel. In Europe the VW diesels are certified for RME fuel (biodiesel). The are clearly stating that in the specifications. RME = Rapeseed Methyl Esters. They don't like soy biodiesel. It's been thought that this is more political than anything else - Europe grows rapeseed, the US grows soy. But biodiesel is biodiesel is biodiesel. Which is what the EPA says with their substantial equivalence for all feedstocks, although the NBB only tested virgin soy biodiesel. But there could be more to it. Rachel Burton posted a link to Lyle's site and her report on a recent SVO workshop with Elsbett engineer Alexander Noack. It included this interesting bit: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. http://www.biofuels.coop/blog/archives/66.html Energy Blog: Elsbett Workshop Slightly different, but if you have a look at the new Euro standard for biodiesel, here: National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds See Europe EN 14214, scroll down to Oxidation stability hrs; 110¡C - 6 hours min. Only Europe has such a standard, and the concern is polymerisation due to oxidation. The Iodine No. standard is 120; others are lower, but the US ASTM D-6751 doesn't specify an IV. The higher the IV the more it's a drying oil that will polymerise, the highest being linseed and fish oil and the lowest coconut and palm kernel. For an explanation see: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine So have a look at these Iodine Values: Rapeseed oil, h. eruc. - 97 to 105 Rapeseed oil, i. eruc. - 110 to 115 Soybean oil - 125 to 1 So. I think there's some substance to this, I'll find out more soon. Meeting the German or Austrian standard isn't difficult, but the Euro standard might be, especially if we think bubblewashing is a great idea. Might have to drop bubblewashing, go for simple stirring instead (and making the stuff properly in the first place). Might have to use an additive as well. And, might have to drop soy too. Something tells me the ASTM standard isn't about to adopt these Euro oxidation limits any time soon. Anyway, both VW and Mercedes seem to be going for Fischer Tropsch diesel from biomass. Perhaps the reason they prefer it to biodiesel might be that it gives them a nice industrial, high-tech, expensive operation to invest in, well beyond the reach of this shabby riff-raff that's taken to making biodiesel in their garages and now the whole thing's right out of corporate control. :-) Best Keith Hakan At 20:16 19/05/2004, you wrote: I have collected four testimonials to high-mileage VW Diesels that came up in discussion. I have seen many such testimonials over the years, but I have been meaning to make a few points in response to them. These came up recently, in response to reports that the two gasoline hybrids have not been getting as good mileage as they advertise. My comments
Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets?
MM, You asked about VW, Europe and biodiesel. In Europe the VW diesels are certified for RME fuel (biodiesel). The are clearly stating that in the specifications. Hakan At 20:16 19/05/2004, you wrote: I have collected four testimonials to high-mileage VW Diesels that came up in discussion. I have seen many such testimonials over the years, but I have been meaning to make a few points in response to them. These came up recently, in response to reports that the two gasoline hybrids have not been getting as good mileage as they advertise. My comments are below the four testimonials. - Begin Testimonials - 1. -- Bummer, my 235 ft. lbs. torque, Upsoluted 2002 Golf BioTDI is getting 45 MPG at 80+ MPH. Guess what I bought yesterday? A bumper sticker featuring Calvin p*ssing on the words, Gas Hybrid. Want a copy? :) Ryan 2. -- Heck, I put a Got 50MPG? sticker on my TDi Golf and I'm embarrassed, too. Because its been getting 53 MPG on road trips to my house in upstate NY. I'm so ashamed. BSEG :) busyditch [] Ha! I was stopped at a traffic light nearby yesterday and a guy in a Ford Exploder came alongside and beeped his horn. I rolled down my window and he asked me what kind of mileage I got. I said 53 highway on long trips, @ 70MPH. He said wanna trade? I said NO WAY! I told him the VW TDi is the best kept secret. Its too bad people have to feel obligated to buy overstuffed g-ass guzzling land yachts because they need to keep up with their neighbors, heck the neighbors should keep up with me, I could go next door and borrow a cup of biodiesel! 3. -- My 2002 VW Golf TDI (stock) is getting 50 MPG on the back roads on mostly old country roads in Hills and Valleys in S.E. Ohio. I love it Ken 4. -- My 96 Passat TDI, with a performance Upsolute chip installed for fun and power, has never gotten below 33 mpg, no matter how hard and fast I drive it in the city. Hiway is never under 45 mpg. This is an old TDI, the newer pump duece tdi's are even better, many tdi drivers get over 60 mpg on the highway. All in a car that is heavy, strong, durable and safe. Imagine if they made it like Honda and cut out 600 lbs. of weight. Chuck - My comments on these vehicles: - 1. I've seldom read anything other than enthusiasm for these cars from their owners. I think that's worth noting, when you run across a car like that. Now, my sample group is skewed, as most of the comments I read are from people who are in discussion groups for biofuels and high-mileage vehicles, (i.e., they are driving diesels not just because they like them, but because it puts them in a position to make and use their own fuel without buying from the oil companies). But I just wanted to note their enthusiasm. 2. Many of the environmentalists and greens that I speak to who are not into biofuels do not like the topic of diesel. Their usual objections are that diesel has bad emissions, continues the petroleum dependencies and that biodiesel has allegedly higher emissions of NOx above petrodiesel emissions, so if one of the goals is to decrease emissions, then biodiesel doesn't do this, they say. In fact, it looks like there are some additives and measures that can be taken to mitigate the NOx emissions of biodiesel, and all other emissions are (from what I've read) lower than petrodiesel anyway. Not to mention that biodiesel is renewable and so has lower, or zero, net CO2 emissions (depending on how it's made and how you calculate a few things), as compared to fossil fuels, which contribute CO2 emissions to the global warming problem. In the meantime, the generally bad emissions reputation of petroleum diesel has been mitigated in Europe by newer cleaner fuel and engines made to run on that fuel. In the U.S., the Oil companies will not widely provide that cleaner diesel fuel for another few years, and we have a much smaller collection of diesels available to us to buy new. VW seems to be one of the only companies to make them available, but those few available seem to be one of the best kept secrets to enable consumers to respond to their mileage-cost concerns. And VW doesn't even make all their best diesels available here (Lupo?85+ mpg?) in part I think because the oil companies do not make suitably clean diesel fuel available. We have, again, this issue of the fuel-engine combination being important to improved environmental efforts, and not just one side or the other. As to using biofuel in a Lupo, it can readily be done, and is a great idea, and I even know of one team talking about driving a PHEV across the country on ONE (very very large) tank of biofuel using a LUPO engine, but I think VW has a conflicting policy about warrantying its engines to run on biofuel...
Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets?
Thanks for the info. I wonder if we can push for that certification in the United States, and what it will take, both from the company and the government and others? On Wed, 19 May 2004 20:35:51 +0200, you wrote: MM, You asked about VW, Europe and biodiesel. In Europe the VW diesels are certified for RME fuel (biodiesel). The are clearly stating that in the specifications. Hakan At 20:16 19/05/2004, you wrote: I have collected four testimonials to high-mileage VW Diesels that came up in discussion. I have seen many such testimonials over the years, but I have been meaning to make a few points in response to them. These came up recently, in response to reports that the two gasoline hybrids have not been getting as good mileage as they advertise. My comments are below the four testimonials. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
