Re: Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945
That sounds completely accurate. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:54 PM Subject: RE: Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945 steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those who say that ethanol is not net energy positive, never distilled a drop. It is net energy positive. Like anything, it can be done badly. energy in energy out. (snip) My wife and I visited the Reeves AgriEnergy Company in Garden City KS a few weeks back. The spokesman said at the time it took 36,000 purchased BTU's to make a gallon of anhydrous alcohol and that a gallon of anhydrous alcohol (I can't remember) somewhere around 70,000 BTU's in it. He also said they sold anhydrous alcohol for .97 cents (US) a gallon. This does not include any road or sales tax. George Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:27 PM Subject: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945 I have this dumb question .. but it's always buggin' me. Ethanol is always spoken of as not energy efficient. I take to mean that more energy needs to be poured in than comes out in the form of ethanol. Got THAT. Makes sense ... since ethanol is sort of an energy carrier energy-in minus less-than-100%-efficiency equal smaller energy-out. My dumb question is that ... why not build a AE power plant next to it?? Like a solar, hydro, wind or whatever?? Then use the ethanol as an energy carrier. To liquefy the AE's output to a storable form. I can't understand why the argument goes to not energy efficient and then DIES right there. I mean, the ethanol plant is a stationary plant ... it doesn't move anywhere!! My second thing is just a comment. They always say that the emission controls with ethanol would be more complicated. But I think that's only because the vehicle is trying to be dual-fueled. I used to work on LPG/gasoline vehicle and the only reason for the complication is that the emission controls had to switch back -n- forth when it is dual-fueled. I think if it were only optimized for one fuel (like ethanol, things would be just fine. Curtis --- Jeremy Shuey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --snip Ethanol is an alcohol fuel (and motor-fuel additive derived from corn; thus it is touted as a way to help end America's dependence upon Middle Eastern oil, as well as a means of helping the environment. But ethanol is no environmental panacea; nor is it energy-efficient. Far from it. Producing ethanol is costly and complex, and uses up more oil-based energy resources than the gasoline and other motor fuels it would ostensibly replace. And burning ethanol in an internal-combustion engine creates environmental problems, too, which add to the complexity of the air-quality problem by throwing yet another variable into the emissions-control equation. Multiple types of fuel, and different requirements regarding fuel additives, make it harder for the auto industry to develop effective new emissions-control equipment. Different fuel types and additive packages can (and do) compromise the effectiveness and long-term durability of the emissions-control equipment already in service. = Join the Revolution! http://thincnet.com/revolution9/downline/vdownline.html?9107 __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http
Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945
- Original Message - From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 19:27 Subject: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945 I have this dumb question .. but it's always buggin' me. Ethanol is always spoken of as not energy efficient. I take to mean that more energy needs to be poured in than comes out in the form of ethanol. I just have to ask, If Ethanol is not energy efficient ( when made at home ), then what makes people think that gasoline is? I mean that oil is bought in the middle east at say $30.00 a barrel, then shipped to the U.S., refined, shipped to a distrabution point, then shiped to a fuel station as gasoline at say $1.50 gal. Now every time it gets shipped, that adds to cost (in more ways than one), then add in the amount of energy to refine it. How the hell can petrolium fuel be efficient? Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945
I have this dumb question .. but it's always buggin' me. Ethanol is always spoken of as not energy efficient. I take to mean that more energy needs to be poured in than comes out in the form of ethanol. Got THAT. Makes sense ... since ethanol is sort of an energy carrier energy-in minus less-than-100%-efficiency equal smaller energy-out. Converting cellulose to ethanol increases the net energy balance of ethanol compared to converting corn to ethanol. The net energy balance is calculated by subtracting the energy required to produce a gallon of ethanol from the energy contained in a gallon of ethanol (approximately 76,000 Btu). Corn-based ethanol has a net energy balance of 20,000 to 25,000 Btu per gallon, where as cellulosic ethanol has a net energy balance of more than 60,000 Btu per gallon.31 [Page 7] http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/pdf/biomass.pdf PDF For example using Btu figures above: k = thousand - Corn ethanol 20k to 25k divide by 76k = 26 to 33 percent net energy. - Petroleum crude is reported to be 85 percent net energy. - Cellulosic ethanol 60k divide by 76k = 79 percent net energy. - Electrolyses H2 hydrogen 50-67 percent net energy b4 other inputs correction welcomed. [ All numbers rounded off ] Renewable fuels are what I mentioned as a net gain fuel producer and petroleum as a net loss fuel producer. A bias of mine as long as supply exceeds demand by a growing world populous. My dumb question is that ... why not build a AE power plant next to it?? Like a solar, hydro, wind or whatever?? Then use the ethanol as an energy carrier. To liquefy the AE's output to a storable form. I can't understand why the argument goes to not energy efficient and then DIES right there. I mean, the ethanol plant is a stationary plant ... it doesn't move anywhere!! I'd like to understand more of which you speak. Could you explain more and/or point to a http:// article(s). My second thing is just a comment. They always say that the emission controls with ethanol would be more complicated. But I think that's only because the vehicle is trying to be dual-fueled. Again I'd like to understand more about ethanol-gasoline emission controls. Could you explain more and/or point to a http:// article(s). Thank you! I used to work on LPG/gasoline vehicle and the only reason for the complication is that the emission controls had to switch back -n- forth when it is dual-fueled. I think if it were only optimized for one fuel (like ethanol, things would be just fine. Curtis -snip- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945
Those who say that ethanol is not net energy positive, never distilled a drop. It is net energy positive. Like anything, it can be done badly. energy in energy out. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:27 PM Subject: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945 I have this dumb question .. but it's always buggin' me. Ethanol is always spoken of as not energy efficient. I take to mean that more energy needs to be poured in than comes out in the form of ethanol. Got THAT. Makes sense ... since ethanol is sort of an energy carrier energy-in minus less-than-100%-efficiency equal smaller energy-out. My dumb question is that ... why not build a AE power plant next to it?? Like a solar, hydro, wind or whatever?? Then use the ethanol as an energy carrier. To liquefy the AE's output to a storable form. I can't understand why the argument goes to not energy efficient and then DIES right there. I mean, the ethanol plant is a stationary plant ... it doesn't move anywhere!! My second thing is just a comment. They always say that the emission controls with ethanol would be more complicated. But I think that's only because the vehicle is trying to be dual-fueled. I used to work on LPG/gasoline vehicle and the only reason for the complication is that the emission controls had to switch back -n- forth when it is dual-fueled. I think if it were only optimized for one fuel (like ethanol, things would be just fine. Curtis --- Jeremy Shuey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --snip Ethanol is an alcohol fuel (and motor-fuel additive derived from corn; thus it is touted as a way to help end America's dependence upon Middle Eastern oil, as well as a means of helping the environment. But ethanol is no environmental panacea; nor is it energy-efficient. Far from it. Producing ethanol is costly and complex, and uses up more oil-based energy resources than the gasoline and other motor fuels it would ostensibly replace. And burning ethanol in an internal-combustion engine creates environmental problems, too, which add to the complexity of the air-quality problem by throwing yet another variable into the emissions-control equation. Multiple types of fuel, and different requirements regarding fuel additives, make it harder for the auto industry to develop effective new emissions-control equipment. Different fuel types and additive packages can (and do) compromise the effectiveness and long-term durability of the emissions-control equipment already in service. = Join the Revolution! http://thincnet.com/revolution9/downline/vdownline.html?9107 __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945
steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those who say that ethanol is not net energy positive, never distilled a drop. It is net energy positive. Like anything, it can be done badly. energy in energy out. (snip) My wife and I visited the Reeves AgriEnergy Company in Garden City KS a few weeks back. The spokesman said at the time it took 36,000 purchased BTU's to make a gallon of anhydrous alcohol and that a gallon of anhydrous alcohol (I can't remember) somewhere around 70,000 BTU's in it. He also said they sold anhydrous alcohol for .97 cents (US) a gallon. This does not include any road or sales tax. George Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:27 PM Subject: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945 I have this dumb question .. but it's always buggin' me. Ethanol is always spoken of as not energy efficient. I take to mean that more energy needs to be poured in than comes out in the form of ethanol. Got THAT. Makes sense ... since ethanol is sort of an energy carrier energy-in minus less-than-100%-efficiency equal smaller energy-out. My dumb question is that ... why not build a AE power plant next to it?? Like a solar, hydro, wind or whatever?? Then use the ethanol as an energy carrier. To liquefy the AE's output to a storable form. I can't understand why the argument goes to not energy efficient and then DIES right there. I mean, the ethanol plant is a stationary plant ... it doesn't move anywhere!! My second thing is just a comment. They always say that the emission controls with ethanol would be more complicated. But I think that's only because the vehicle is trying to be dual-fueled. I used to work on LPG/gasoline vehicle and the only reason for the complication is that the emission controls had to switch back -n- forth when it is dual-fueled. I think if it were only optimized for one fuel (like ethanol, things would be just fine. Curtis --- Jeremy Shuey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --snip Ethanol is an alcohol fuel (and motor-fuel additive derived from corn; thus it is touted as a way to help end America's dependence upon Middle Eastern oil, as well as a means of helping the environment. But ethanol is no environmental panacea; nor is it energy-efficient. Far from it. Producing ethanol is costly and complex, and uses up more oil-based energy resources than the gasoline and other motor fuels it would ostensibly replace. And burning ethanol in an internal-combustion engine creates environmental problems, too, which add to the complexity of the air-quality problem by throwing yet another variable into the emissions-control equation. Multiple types of fuel, and different requirements regarding fuel additives, make it harder for the auto industry to develop effective new emissions-control equipment. Different fuel types and additive packages can (and do) compromise the effectiveness and long-term durability of the emissions-control equipment already in service. = Join the Revolution! http://thincnet.com/revolution9/downline/vdownline.html?9107 __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
