[svg-developers] Adobe Labs Wallaby's use of SVG
Adobe Labs Wallaby says it converts Flash authoring files (.fla) into HTML5, but seems like SVG is a large part of HTML5 that they are using: http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Wallaby http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Wallaby#Release_Notes http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Wallaby:Technical_Tips (search for Canvas) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Microsoft beta namespace and SVG
Hi David, I wouldn't hold up too much hope based on the namespace document. I saw this when it was first published in March, but I doubt if this has much value as a hint about MS's future intentions regarding bundling SVG support within IE. In fact, it might lead one to think that they are expecting the community to provide an SVG plugin (i.e., ASV or replacement for ASV) due to their examples of integrating SVG support via binary behaviors. I hope MS has finally decided to stop its policy of slowing the Open Web by holding back support for SVG (and attempting to force people to use Silverlight instead and thereby lock people into their platform). Incidentally, OpenAjax Alliance polled leading Ajax developers about what features are most important in future browsers and 2D vector graphics was the top request. * http://www.openajax.org/runtime/wiki/Summary_Report Just to be clear, the Ajax community wants *native* SVG support (and Canvas) in IE, like what we are seeing in Opera and Webkit. (Mozilla appear to be finally completing its support for SVG, including SMIL.) Jon Ferraiolo ddailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] rnet.net To Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject [svg-developers] Microsoft beta 07/29/2008 06:55 namespace and SVG PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Sam Ruby brought this to the attention of the HTML WG http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ProjectName=ie8whitepapersReleaseId=573 The HTML WG has enjoyed a recent debate about SVG support within HTML for some weeks now-- see the discussion leading from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0179.html among other places. I don't claim to know what many of the issues really are, but I know there are people who hang out here who may not hang out there, so I thought you might find it to be of interest. David [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] SVG in iPhone
Note that there were separate announcements relative to the iPhone and Safari3. My guess is that Safari3 isn't running on the iPhone quite yet, which means SVG isn't running on the iPhone quite yet, but perhaps some people on this list are actually attending WWDC and have more complete information. But nevertheless, it is fantastic that Apple is releasing an updated Safari that includes SVG. But perhaps even more significant that Safari supporting SVG to the industry is that Safari is now available on Windows: http://tailrank.com/2087995/Apple-Introduces-Safari-for-Windows Jon tbone58x [EMAIL PROTECTED] kc.netTo Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject [svg-developers] SVG in iPhone 06/12/2007 03:27 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com From my quick reading it appears that the M$ Silverlight product will not function in the expected hottest new product in the mobile marketplace - the iPhone. However, it does appear that SVG will... http://www.rttnews.com/sp/breakingnews.asp?date=06/11/2007item=91 - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Just noticed a lack of VML support
Hi everyone, Here is what I know of the history regarding MS supporting SVG in Visio. When the SVG WG was formed in 1998, Visio was a separate company and a charter member of the working group. Sometime in the next few years, MS acquired Visio, but the appearances were that the Visio team was left intact for the most part and were allowed independence to deliver good products to their customers. According to statements at SVG Open in 2003 by MS/Visio people (and I was listening to them carefully because this was such a curiosity), Visio had a tower of babel problem because there were many different graphics formats, each requiring their own exporters and importer. In 2003, SVG seemed to be gaining industry traction. One of the Visio execs got up in front of SVG Open and told the audience that the majority of the companies on their customer advisory board had SVG projects underway. Additionally, there was lots of other industry indication that SVG was a happening thing in the industry. Nearly all of the software products with whom Visio needed to work with supported SVG and SVG had the features that Visio needed. Therefore, Visio invested considerable effort to use SVG as its unifying format for exchanging graphics data with other graphics software packages. Presumably, VML would not have been a good match for their requirements because few products export or import VML as an interchange format, possibly because there is no official spec for VML, just the draft spec that was sent to the W3C back in 1998 (http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML.html). Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-926-5865 dr.cataclyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoo.com To Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject [svg-developers] Re: Just noticed a 04/10/2007 12:00 lack of VML support PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com David, I have been watching the dojo project for some time now and think it is wonderful. Preferring YUI for my js though I have been looking for an XSLT or extremely small javascript solution to providing cross-browser vector graphic compatibility. I have been watching a few people working on svg/vml combo projects as well. lorien.henrywilkins, kyle.scholz have a google project for this purpose that is a tiny js file . http://code.google.com/p/svg2vml/ also * Giorgio Massaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Angelo Di Iorio - [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Fabio Vitali - [EMAIL PROTECTED] of the Universita Di Bologna have a very functional svg--vml--gif and back again converter which is progressing nicely. http://vitali.web.cs.unibo.it/Progetti/VectorConverter *** I like the converters XSL implementation, because it allows me to build complicated graphics in Inkscape and simply run the xslt after a browser check. Daniel on MS and vml: I do find it a bit odd that they do not support their own vector format from a vector graphics application like Visio 2007. That said, --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, meikelneu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- David ddailey wrote: FWIW, IE7 continues VML support. I hope they don't discontinue it since for some (simple) things I like the option of providing VML as an alternative to SVG if the plugin doesn't exist. that's exactly what the dojo guys (as in dojotoolkit.org) are doing with dojo.gfx, see here http://www.sitepen.com/blog/2007/03/27/ajaxworld-and-sxsw-talks-on-dojogfx/ they said ie7 broke some vml stuff compared to ie6 but still have confidence in using it. Michael - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message
Re: [svg-developers] SVG tiny Vs Basic
Relative to scripting and SVG Tiny: 1) SVG Tiny 1.1 does not require scripting support, but my understanding is that some mobile implementations of SVG Tiny 1.1 support JavaScript, and many more support Java via JSR226 2) SVG Tiny 1.2 requires scripting support In terms of differences between SVG Tiny 1.1 and SVG Basic 1.1, there are some handy comparison tables starting at http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVGMobile-20030114/#sec-eleind. SVG Tiny 1.2 adds gradients and some support for opacity on top of what was present in SVG Tiny 1.1. (Also adds video and various other features needed by application developers.!) The most significant graphics feature that is missing from SVG Tiny 1.2 is lack of clipping and masking. These missing features aren't used much within business graphics or user interfaces, but come in very handy for high-end graphics created by professional design tools. Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Ronan Oger [EMAIL PROTECTED] se.comTo Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] SVG tiny Vs 02/10/2007 12:36 Basic AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com The most important difference is that SVG Tiny does not support scripting. Keep in mind that SVG1.1 is now Very Old specification, and the viewer builders are generally working towards SVGT1.2 (which does contain scripting) More info on SVGT 1.2 (August 2006) http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/ More information on SVGB and SVGT 1.1 (2003) http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/ Cheers, Ronan On Friday 09 February 2007 09:52, Prem Dasari wrote: Hi, I would like to know the differences between SVG tiny 1.1 and SVG Basic 1.1. I am aware of the following facts that SVG Basic 1.1 supports - User Interactivity, -Filter Effects -Gradients -Color Profile -Scrripting support If u have anything more in u r mind then let me know Thanx in Advance Pred . http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1298421/grpspId=1706030389/m sgId=58029/stime=1170678645/nc1=3848642/nc2=2/nc3=3 # THIS EMAIL MESSAGE IS FOR THE SOLE USE OF THE INTENDED RECIPIENT(S) AND MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND PRIVILEGED INFORMATION. ANY UNAUTHORIZED REVIEW, USE, DISCLOSURE OR DISTRIBUTION IS PROHIBITED.BEFORE OPENING ANY ATTACHMENTS PLEASE CHECK FOR VIRUSES AND DEFECTS.IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY REPLY E-MAIL AND DELETE THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE. # [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links -- Ronan Oger lailing list account http://www.roitsystems.com http://www.roasp.com - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Logo Contest
To elaborate on Bjoern's comments, if script elements point to external JavaScript, then the timing of the HTTP requests to pull down the various JavaScript files is uncertain, and thus other elements in the DOM tree might have been parsed and processed before the script logic associated with a given script element is executed. I assume that HTML has the same limitation as SVG in this regard. (If not, then SVG should include whatever feature that HTML has.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-926-5865 Bjoern Hoehrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] t To Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Logo 12/21/2006 11:56 Contest AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com * Jeff Schiller wrote: Another question to anyone out there: I don't see any way from within JavaScript to determine the SVGScriptElement (http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/script.html#InterfaceSVGScriptElement) that contains the current statements being executed. That's kind of funny because in order for the script to be executing it must be included in the DOM, right? The script doesn't have any idea which DOM element contains itself. There is no way. The only possible way would be to get the last element in document order during progressive load. Since SVG 1.1 does not define the exact processing in this case, and scripts might be run at other points in time this is genuinely impossible without additional features. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Adobe extends ASV download availability indefinitely
This announcement by Adobe is certainly a step in the right direction. But what large parts of the community needs is a bit more: * Short-term: Ongoing maintenance of ASV3, where ASV is updated to support new versions of IE, Windows, Firefox, Safari, and maybe a Linux version is finally made available. Best case scenario would be if Adobe supplied those updates as part of an ASV 3.0.4/etc or something like that. Next best would be if Adobe donated ASV to an open source project so the community could take care of itself. * Long-term: A cross-browser solution that allows content to be developed in conformance with the W3C/SVG standard. This would be solved if IE added SVG support comparable to its competitors, but also could be solved via a new browser plugin. (Incidentally, neither the Flash format nor WPF/E are open standards. Those options are for people who don't care about standards conformance.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-926-5865 benamou jean-david jean-david.benam To [EMAIL PROTECTED] svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent by: cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Adobe extends ASV download availability 12/15/2006 11:11 indefinitely AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Hi, I could not find the new date when the download would end. I dont know if this announce has to do with the release of WPF/E plugin but it might not be enough. Unless Adobe seriously commits himnself to SVG and ASV (which would be easy considering all the efforts already done) . It is likely that a large portion (if not all) of the SVG dev. community depending on ASV for their business will shift to MS WPF/E rather than flash. JD On Dec 15, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Paton J. Lewis wrote: In response to customer feedback, Adobe has extended download availability once again for Adobe SVG Viewer. Adobe does not currently have plans to remove Adobe SVG Viewer from the Adobe.com download area. Adobe recognizes that customers have built Web applications that depend on ASV being available for download, and although Adobe does not plan to develop ASV further, we plan for the existing versions to be available for download as long as our customers rely on them. For the official announcement, please see http://www.adobe.com/svg/ eol.html Pat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Mars and svg specifications
I will point out that device-color() was a feature (still is a feature?) that was listed in drafts of SVG 1.2. So, even with this syntax extension, Adobe has attempted to be align with where the W3C/SVG appeared to be headed. However, maybe Adobe should have used icc-color() instead so that there was no invention of new syntax on existing attributes. My understanding is that the ICC specs allow for the definition of device-dependent color spaces. (Chris Lilley is the expert in this area.) Maybe the SVG WG could look at this issue and give advice to Adobe. Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-926-5865 Leonard Rosenthol [EMAIL PROTECTED] To re.com svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent by: cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Mars and svg specifications 12/12/2006 03:08 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com There are a few places that we had to extend SVG to support features in PDF, including in the areas of colorspaces, transparency and prepress functionality. All of our extensions are documented and should also be namespaced. Leonard Rosenthol Adobe Systems On 12/10/06, pilatfr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi As you know, in Mars zip each page is defined by svg file. As Adobe plugin don't know exactly SVG specifications, we can open this svg file in Adobe plugin but not in Opera or FF. We can find by example this fill=rgb(0,0,0) device-color(DeviceGray,0) Is this conform to SVG specifications? Michel PS If you have to create svg with many text, table ... perhaps a solution is to make it in your text processor, convert to pdf with Acrobat and export as Mars file ... and get fine svg! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Mars and svg specifications
Hi Antoine, Now that I am no longer with Adobe, I feel more able to express certain opinions. Regarding SVG Print: 1) Yes indeed, try to partner with how PDF/Mars is using SVG. As you probably know, PDF is very, very big in the world of printing. An initiative around SVG for print workflows that was incompatible with PDF/Mars probably would not be taken seriously by the major players in the print industry. The print industry already has to support PDF because it has so much industry momentum (and addresses most of their needs). It would be much easier for them to add support for the XML version of PDF, with SVG inside, then take on a whole new SVG Print thing. (Especially since MS is very aggressively pushing the MS-controlled XML Paper Specification into the print industry.) Thus, the standards world should try to make the page images for SVG Print and the page images for PDF/Mars be one and the same. 2) But beyond that, given that PDF/Mars is based on open standards, including SVG, why is there an industry requirement for SVG Print as a separate thing at all? The only viable reason for SVG Print that I can see would be if Adobe decides to keep all of Mars as an Adobe-controlled thing, which would be contrary to the W3C goals of promoting truly open technologies (i.e., not controlled by a single vendor). But if Adobe hands off the SVG parts of Mars to a legitimate standards process, such as the SVG WG or AIIM (which manages the PDF/A ISO standard), then instead of inventing a different SVG Print thing, the SVG WG should work with the community to define a *single* industry-wide definition of how to use SVG within print workflows. Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-926-5865 Antoine Quint [EMAIL PROTECTED] m To Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Mars and svg 12/12/2006 08:47 specifications AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com On 12 déc. 2006, at 06:08, Leonard Rosenthol wrote: There are a few places that we had to extend SVG to support features in PDF, including in the areas of colorspaces, transparency and prepress functionality. All of our extensions are documented and should also be namespaced. Good to hear Leonard. Are there any plans to sync with W3C and the SVG Print effort to make sure that some of these extensions could be considered for standardization? Antoine -- Blog — http://the.fuchsia-design.com - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Mars and svg specifications
Leonard, What I was saying is that maybe Adobe should not use device-color() for device color and instead use icc-color() for both ICC color and device color. The problem with device-color() is that it causes some existing SVG-conformant interpreters to fail. I assume there will be lots of Mars-created SVG files that use device-color(), since device color is still quite popular in the print world, so lots of Mars files won't open in existing SVG software. If Mars represented device color using the existing icc-color syntax instead, then the theory is that existing SVG-conformant interpreters would be able to deal with that content. (Most likely by ignoring the icc-color() markup.) Jon Leonard Rosenthol [EMAIL PROTECTED] To re.com svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent by: cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Mars and svg specifications 12/12/2006 03:36 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com We support icc-color() as well as the SVG 1.2 device colors. Leonard On 12/12/06, Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will point out that device-color() was a feature (still is a feature?) that was listed in drafts of SVG 1.2. So, even with this syntax extension, Adobe has attempted to be align with where the W3C/SVG appeared to be headed. However, maybe Adobe should have used icc-color() instead so that there was no invention of new syntax on existing attributes. My understanding is that the ICC specs allow for the definition of device-dependent color spaces. (Chris Lilley is the expert in this area.) Maybe the SVG WG could look at this issue and give advice to Adobe. Jon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download
Hi Jeff, Good summary of the options. There is one more option - there is always the faint hope that someone will provide an SVG plugin to replace ASV. (Maybe you are thinking about doing something in this direction with Mozilla.) In terms of Dojo2D, my understanding aligns with yours in that it does not yet support declarative SVG (i.e., SVG markup) and instead requires building an SVG model in JavaScript via their API calls. In looking at the dojo 0.4 source code, Dojo2D as it stands today involves two performance intensive-transformations. First, if you start with SVG markup, you will have to parse that markup in order to build the Dojo2D data structures via their API calls. Second, the Dojo2D data structures will need to be transformed into either SVG or VML within the browser so that the graphics will render. There needs to be some accelerated code paths for Dojo2D to be viable for complicated graphics, such as mapping. For example, on Firefox, why not pass through the SVG markup directly to the browser without building the Dojo2D data structures, and for IE, why not use client-side XSLT to transform SVG markup into VML? Another performance enhancement would be for Dojo to provide a utility which converts SVG markup into their Dojo2D data structures by invoking their built-in XML parser (which will build a private DOM image within JavaScript) and then converting this into their private Dojo2D data structures. All of this is easier said than done. I don't know what Dojo's plans are for these enhancements. Of course, it is an open source projects, so anyone can contribute if they are motivated and have the time. Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-926-5865 Jeff Schiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com To Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes 12/06/2006 09:24 Beta Community preview available AMfor download Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, T Rowley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mozilla as an ActiveX control already exists: http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm You'd still be stuck with the click-to-active behavior of plugins in IE. The other options outside of an IE plugin are: 1) wait until IE natively implements SVG (and XHTML while we're at it) 2) wait until another browser becomes the dominant UA in web browsing 3) wait until WPF/E becomes widely deployed in IE, write a library to go from SVG to XAML (note: does this also mean the WPF/E is under the same click-to-activate behavior in IE6?) 4) update DENG to support full SVG (including scripting) 5) use Dojo2D or another Ajaxy toolkit that supports SVG. To my knowledge, Dojo2D doesn't yet support transforming declarative SVG into VML, it's all done procedurally via scripting, if I'm not mistaken, which means it's potentially slow, though I haven't tried it) Anyway, looks like the Mozilla option is almost there (from an armchair perspective). But the control/project hasn't been updated in almost a year, I've emailed Adam to ask if he's still active on it. I'd also ask where's the Moz 1.8.1 version of the control, but a Moz 1.8.0 version of the plugin would still be worthwhile. Next, how does one go about configuring an ActiveX control to handle specific MIME types as a plugin in IE? - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg
[svg-developers] More support for SVG in the Dojo Ajax toolkit
Hi everyone, I thought this would be of interest to the SVG community. Dojo has added a charting package that sits on top of its (SVG-based) Dojo2D component: http://blog.dojotoolkit.org/2006/11/08/the-dojo-charting-engine-courtesy-of-greenplum-and-sitepen Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-464-7817 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] SVGs, JavaScript and Adobe Illustrator CS2 and SVG RoboHelp Question
Hi Charles, Yes, I agree that one can get around this problem by using a browser that supports SVG natively, and congratulations to the browsers such as Opera that do in fact support SVG natively. However, if SVG developers find themselves forced into supporting stubborn users who continue to support browsers without native SVG support, such as IE, and must continue to use ASV, then there is a different workaround. It is the same workaround that Flash developers have had to use. One URL that shows how to achieve the Flash workaround is http://www.informit.com/guides/content.asp?g=flashseqNum=376rl=1. I believe that the corresponding tricks necessary to do the same thing with SVG have been posted to this list (or elsewhere), but I haven't been able to find them. Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-464-7817 Charles McCathieNevile [EMAIL PROTECTED] To svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent by: cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] SVGs, JavaScript and Adobe Illustrator 11/09/2006 06:49 CS2 and SVG RoboHelp Question AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 05:55:57 -0800, Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Second Question: I am creating a project where I will embed interactive SVGs into RoboHelp. So far it has worked great, but one thing I have noticed is that I have to click on the SVG once (from within the finished RoboHelp htm file)and then click again to access the interactivity. When I roll the mouse over the SVG, I get Click to activate and use this control (using IE7 with ASV 3.0). Does anyone know why this is the case? Why can't I just rollover the SVG? Because Microsoft got sued by EOLAS and part of their response was to require clicking on any plugin before it works. Is there a way to correct this issue? Use a browser that has native SVG, such as Opera or Firefox (depending on whether you need animation and so on, or just some simple SVG constructs and javascript) cheers Chaals -- Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try Opera 9 now! http://opera.com - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML
Hi Jeff, First off, I will say that there are many impressive Ajax toolkits out there. I am going to point out the virtues of two such toolkits (ie., two out of about 200), but I want to emphasize that there are lots of great options in the Ajax space. (The OpenAjax Alliance's mission is to make sure there is good interoperability between all of this great innovation around Ajax ) The first Ajax toolkit to highlight is Dojo, which is particularly relevant to this community because of its SVG-centric Dojo2D component. Dojo is impressive technology to me. Very nice architectural foundation. Some large companies, such as my company, IBM, have jumped onto the Dojo bandwagon and are helping with that open source effort. Dylan Schiemann, one of the founders of Dojo (and someone who has participated in the SVG community!), will be giving a talk at AJAXWorld Conference and Expo (Oct 3-4, Santa Clara, CA) that describes current status with Dojo2D today. You mention yet another impressive Ajax toolkit with OpenLaszlo. I have seen recent demos of OpenLaszlo's DHTML support. Very cool and slick. It looks to me at the 5000ft level that you can do pretty much anything with OpenLaszlo that you can do with Flex. (Remember that Laszlo did LZX some time before Adobe did MXML.) With their upcoming Ajax support, OpenLaszlo now supports rich interfaces via open standards. The Open part of OpenLaszlo probably refers to the fact that their RIA code base has been turned over to an open source project. While I have suggested to Adobe that they hand off parts of the ASV code base to open source, I don't see hugely compelling value to a *new* SVG browser plugin at this point, especially given the Mozilla/Firefox support for HTML+SVG and the fact that groundwork has been laid to build an IE ActiveX control that includes the Mozilla codebase. Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Jeff Schiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] tmail.com To Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's 09/07/2006 08:30 greed clearing the way for XAML PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Actually Jon, I agree with both of your recent points... you stole my thunder on both accounts! ;) 1) Watch out for Dojo 0.4 for the cross-browser 2D graphics API (VML on IE and SVG everywhere else). I've been hearing good things, anyway. 2) Watch for IE8+ (i.e. something after IE7) to support SVG. Chris Wilson has been pretty public about the need to support a core set of web standards, of which he considers SVG a part of. 3) I'll mention a third point: OpenLaszlo has been working hard on expanding its offerings to support multiple compilation targets. By the end of the year they will support compiling to DHTML as well as Flash. There is already some internal work on doing the same for SVG (though I suspect that SVG support could be rolled into DHTML at some point). Anyway, it's high time we started moving up the stack anyway and getting out of coding applications with a set of cobbled-together HTML, JS, SVG, XML, CSS files... In the meantime though, I really think an open source SVG 1.1 browser plugin is a worthwhile effort, simply because you can never have too many baskets for your eggs. Regards, Jeff --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guy, I have been biting my tongue, but your email was too provocative. Generally, I agree with your points. My additional comments: * The open source phenomenon is huge. The same phenomenon that transformed the server world (what with LAMP) is starting to affect the client world. Although the threat isn't imminent, over the next few years MS is in danger of losing control over the browsing experience to Mozilla and Safari, both of which are open source
[svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
As of when??!?!?!!? What happened??? Leonard -- Hi Leonard (and the other 7455 people on this list), I changed jobs in May, leaving Adobe to join IBM's Emerging Technologies group to help with OpenAjax. I left Adobe for IBM because this OpenAjax opportunity was just too attractive, even though my previous assignments at Adobe were also interesting and fun. (OK. I'll come clean. The REAL reason was I felt hugely embarrassed about living in Silicon Valley and not changing jobs in 13 years.) Here are some URLs on OpenAjax: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19187.wss - OpenAjax launched with 15 original members http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19623.wss - OpenAjax gains 13 additional members http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/22/78577_HNajaxforge_1.html - Press report on first OpenAjax Alliance meeting http://ajax.sys-con.com/read/233247.htm - About me taking the reins There will be a lot more information about OpenAjax in the coming weeks. In particular, we are about to unveil our web site, a white paper, outline definition of the OpenAjax Hub (and associated open source project), announcements of new members, and have our second face-to-face meeting. Very cool stuff. Maybe not as cool as SVG or next-generation PDF, but cool nonetheless, and as I have mentioned in previous emails, SVG is becoming a component technology of Ajax. (And I can now hang my head high again in Silicon Valley due to having job-hopped recently.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML
Hi Jonathan, You asked, so I will answer. My opinion on audio and video is that I hope the browser vendors see the multimedia light and implement the SMIL timing and animation modules. They have to implement most of it anyway for SVG 1.1, so why not have a bit of foresight and: * implement the few extra bits needed for future support for what is needed for SVG-t 1.2 * implement the timing and animation engines as separate modules from SVG so that it can be used on HTML also (similar to HTML+TIME in IE5.5) * support SVG-t 1.2's audio and video tags in conjuntion with SVG content * support audio and video content in conjunction with HTML's object tag The tricky part is inclusion of industry-standard codecs, some of which require paying licensing fees, which is hard for freely downloadable software. To get around this issue, the browser vendors should hook into existing audio/video player software (QuickTime, WMP, even maybe Flash) via the HTML object tag which they control from their built-in SMIL engine. I think this is an important issue for that part of the industry that wants to create standards-compliant content and not rely on proprietary formats and single-vendor runtimes. Multimedia is hitting the mainstream (driven in part by all of those young people uploading bad videos for the world to see). We need a standards-based approach to playing that content in conjunction with rich user interfaces. Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-464-7817 Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] ernet.com To Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's 09/08/2006 12:01 greed clearing the way for XAML PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Jon, among other significant outstanding bugs that mozilla/firefox is being really slow to resolve is the issue of audio or sound. Aywk adobe had sound support from the start as does flash. in fact many authors use flash solely to provide audio on webpages. I just wondered whether you had considered this issue and whether you felt it had relevance. cheers Jonathan Chetwynd especially given the Mozilla/Firefox support for HTML+SVG - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer
Margie, Thanks for the kind words. In terms of possible next steps, I suggest finding a way to express your point of view (professionally, of course) within a blog or a forum that Adobe would read. (I don't know the degree to which Adobe monitors this forum and I am not sure what other industry forums they read these days.) An important thing would be to give detailed information about the business impact that you face. Adobe is likely to be more receptive if a company speaks up and talks about any specific difficulties that they will face and what Adobe could do about relieving those difficulties. Adobe is less likely to listen to people who simply get up on their soapbox. (I already did that.) Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-464-7817 Marjorie Roswell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To om svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent by: cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue 09/07/2006 05:03 Adobe SVG Viewer AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Jon, That was beautifully written. Thank you for your work and advocacy in the SVG community. What's the next step for our community to take, regarding items 3, 4, and 5? Margie On 9/6/06, jon_ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Pat, Now that I am a member of the community and no longer an employee of Adobe, here is my reaction: (1) First off, I believe that Adobe deserves a great amount of appreciation for their contributions to SVG and the open standards world for their activities in previous years. Adobe provided a high-quality free implementation of an SVG viewer at large expense. (Pat, you know this perhaps better than anyone.) Adobe also has provided (and presumably will continue to provide) excellent support for SVG in some of its products, particularly Illustrator. Adobe has also made large contributions within the standards community on SVG. (2) It is understandable that at some point Adobe would announce the end-of-life for Adobe SVG Viewer. Since the Macromedia acquisition (at least, perhaps even earlier), it is clear that Adobe doesn't consider the SVG viewer to be strategic. Also, browsers are adding SVG support natively. (3) HOWEVER, I believe that some of the details regarding this end-of-life announcement are unacceptable to the community and not in Adobe's own best interests. To me, it is OK to stop support (presumably developer support and security fixes) on Adobe SVG Viewer in the relative near-term, but instead of giving four months of advanced notice (i.e., 1/1/07), it should be something measured in years, something in the range of 2-4 years. (Note: 5 years is the usual amount for developer-oriented software.) (4) It reflects badly on Adobe that it did not donate the ASV source code (at least the higher-level logic that sits above the graphics rendering engine) to open soure. If Adobe isn't going to use ASV, then it should give it to the community so they can use it. Given how Adobe promoted industry adoption of ASV in the early days and thereby convinced many developers to build mission-critical applications using SVG, it is the least that Adobe could do. (5) But the worst part of this announcement is the removal of ASV downloads as of 1/1/08, with no option for others to host a different ASV download site. As others have pointed out, this will be devastating to those poor souls who made a commitment to ASV in the past and need their deployed SVG applications to continue working in IE, which today has something like 80% market share and is unlikely to support SVG natively before a couple of years go by. This particular decision reflects badly on Adobe as a business partner with developers. If nothing
Re: [svg-developers] Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML
Hi folks, I want to alert the SVG community to a variation on SVG that might prove interesting over the long haul for interactive vector graphics. First, a bit of background. I left Adobe in May to join IBM where I am leading a new industry initiative, the OpenAjax Alliance. This alliance represents the collaborative work of 50+ organizations in the Ajax commmunity, with members including IBM, Sun, Google, Mozilla, Opera, Adobe, Oracle, SAP, BEA, TIBCO, SoftwareAG, Eclipse Foundation, Intel, Novell, RedHat, Borland, Dojo Foundation, Zimbra (leaders behind the Kabuki toolkit), Zend (the PHP company), Backbase, Jackbe, Icesoft, Laszlo, and Nexaweb.The chief goal is to accelerate customer success with Ajax by promoting a customer's ability to mix and match solutions from Ajax technology providers and by helping to drive the future of the Ajax ecosystem. (Unfortunately, our web site, www.openajaxalliance.org, hasn't launched yet due to the need for approvals by appropriate committees. It should launch sometime this month. In the meantime, if you want more information on OpenAjax, send me a private email.) The term Ajax has both a narrow and broad meaning. The original (narrow) meaning of AJAX was about leveraging XMLHttpRequest to provide the low-level technology in order to achieve partial screen updates and thus a smoother user experience for HTML applications. Nowadays, the term Ajax often refers to the broader notion of delivering rich user experiences leveraging the native features found within web browsers. Ajax frameworks include Ajax user interface toolkits (such as Dojo or Script.aculo.us) , Ajax IDEs (such as Eclipse and Netbeans), and server products such as the Google WebToolkit.. Using this broader definition of Ajax, Ajax technology providers deliver an Ajax engine that takes a cross-platform, browser-independent definition of the web application and then performs an Ajax transformation which produces appropriate HTML+JavaScript (and sometimes SVG!) to produce the desired rich user experience. One particularly interesting development on the Ajax front is recent addition of 2D graphics support within some commercial products and open source projects. One such development is the Dojo2D project (http://dojo.jot.com/Dojo2D), which uses a subset of SVG as input. On browsers that support SVG, Dojo2D passes the SVG through to the browser. On IE, it transcodes the SVG into VML. From what I hear, a first version of Dojo2D is likely to ship within an upcoming release of the Dojo toolkit sometime soon (probably before the year is out). Mid-release downloads for the open source tree of course are available today. Google does something similar today with Google Maps (i.e., SVG on Firefox and VML on IE). Other announcements in Ajax/SVG space are forthcoming. Therefore, developers who want 2D graphics and want to realize the benefits of open standards (e.g., cross-platform support and multiple suppliers) should key on eye out on Ajax toolkits that offer SVG support. Jon Jon Ferraiolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Doug Schepers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Is Adobe's 09/07/2006 08:33 greed clearing the way for XAML AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Hi, Geoffrey- Yes, I for one welcome our new vector format overlords. ;) I do agree that Flash is a little underpowered in the programming side (from what I've seen). But XAML is way too overworked. I think SVG is in a sweet spot between the two, and it's based on standards that are widely implemented. We don't know yet how SVG in IE will play out, but I'm not ready to jump ship yet. Regards- -Doug Geoffrey Swenson wrote: By abandoning SVG, the net effect for us and Adobe is that XAML is going
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML
Guy, I have been biting my tongue, but your email was too provocative. Generally, I agree with your points. My additional comments: * The open source phenomenon is huge. The same phenomenon that transformed the server world (what with LAMP) is starting to affect the client world. Although the threat isn't imminent, over the next few years MS is in danger of losing control over the browsing experience to Mozilla and Safari, both of which are open source and both of which implement W3C standards successfully. Firefox's market share is likely to accelerate in the short-term as Enterprises discover its merits as a strong platform for application development and begin to require its usage instead of IE for Enterprise applications. This will result in larger numbers of people who start to feel comfortable with Firefox (because of being forced to use it at their company) and therefore comfortable in abandoning IE for browsing the Web. (Note that Google is investing a ton of money in Mozilla these days. Microsoft is very much aware of this.) * As a result, Microsoft will be forced to re-embrace standards in order to stop the loss of market share and reclaim control over their own Windows platform. Microsoft will be forced to do whatever it takes in order to push Firefox's (and Safari's) market shares down below 5% once again, and (unfortunately for them) in today's world that includes world-class support for open standards. And, thanks to the leadership at Firefox, Safari, and Opera, SVG has become a requirement. Microsoft has been aware of all of this for a long time. Therefore, I expect to see SVG support in IE betas by the end of 2007. * I would be hugely surprised if Microsoft followed Adobe's lead and announced VML end-of-life in the same (unacceptable) manner as Adobe. Microsoft is considerably more sensitive to supporting their existing community of developers. When VML is EOL'd, Microsoft will give something like a 5-year window before VML quits working with new versions of IE. Or at least that what my personal crystal ball shows. Jon Guy Morton [EMAIL PROTECTED] auTo Sent by: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc hoogroups.com Subject Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's 09/07/2006 04:20 greed clearing the way for XAML PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hoogroups.com Yes, it gives the lie to the lip service they give to standards adherence. M$ in particular only support those standards that they feel benefit their business (like someone else said, there's no other reason for them to release software for free). Honestly, how hard would it have been from MS to enable native SVG support, given that they already had VML, which has been in IE since v5? Should we really believe their weasel words about it coming in IE8? I don't think so! I'm now wondering how long it will be before MS announces the EOL for VML, as a way of trying to screw projects like http://dojo.jot.com/ Dojo2D and push everyone towards using XAML. Personally, I'd be VERY reluctant to start porting apps to XAML, given that at the moment even M$ are not committing to it being available on anything but Vista - that's going to be a pretty limited market for a long time, even putting to one side that it leaves any non-windows users out in the cold. This might be fine for corporate applications, but wake up people, there's plenty of users moving away from Windows these days! From my web logs I'd say only 75% of users are using IE now - 25% of users is a pretty big chunk to lose by building your app using IE/Windows-dependent technology! A cornerstone of the web is that it be accessible to all - this means it must be cross-platform compatible. MS has never really wanted this to be so, but it is. They'll keep trying to push a windows-centric world view on the world, but i believe ultimately this must fail. The web (and the
RE: [svg-developers] Re: Adobe/Macromedia
At this point, Adobe has no plans to do anything which would disrupt any ASV3 installations or dependencies on ASV3 downloads. If we come out with new viewing technology which includes SVG support, we will be highly sensitive towards the needs of SVG applications that are installed in the field today. I also want to say that Adobe's primary attitude towards SVG is fully positive: it represents a market opportunity for our products and a technology opportunity when we are looking for an XML representation of 2D graphics. Although the FAQ only mentioned SVG on mobile devices, that was meant solely as a positive acknowledgement of SVG momentum in the mobile space and was *not* meant to imply anything negative about SVG in the desktop space. Jon Ferraiolo Adobe Systems, Inc. From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Berjon Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:57 AM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: Adobe/Macromedia On Dec 07, 2005, at 15:44, Ronan Oger wrote: Corel is not being developed any more, but it has zero chance of being superceded with a downgraded version of the same. It also has close to zero chance of being useful. People don't author to it, and it won't be going anywhere. With ASV, there is every chance that it suddenly dissapears from your client desktops and is replaced with ASV4, or Acrobat8, which supports flash, pdf, and SVGt but no SVG. Removing ASV3 when something that isn't an SVG implementation on par with the current one is installed would be a fantastically stupid move on Adobe's behalf, angering people for no gain whatsoever. They've made mistakes in the past, but giving them so little credit is insulting. If they support SVG Tiny in Apollo, which would pleasantly surprise me, I don't see why they would remove ASV3. They would take over handling the media type, but that applies to any plugin (but not to browsers). -- Robin Berjon Senior Research Scientist Expway, http://expway.com/ - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership SPONSORED LINKS Computer internet security http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Computer+internet+securityw1=Compu ter+internet+securityw2=Computer+internet+businessw3=Computer+internet +accessw4=Computer+internet+helpw5=How+to+format+a+computer+hard+drive w6=How+to+format+a+computerc=6s=193.sig=gyuL7Z410BWOUN7JXWHyMw Computer internet business http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Computer+internet+businessw1=Compu ter+internet+securityw2=Computer+internet+businessw3=Computer+internet +accessw4=Computer+internet+helpw5=How+to+format+a+computer+hard+drive w6=How+to+format+a+computerc=6s=193.sig=ShuZdG9ngbvKBgXvpajd6Q Computer internet access http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Computer+internet+accessw1=Compute r+internet+securityw2=Computer+internet+businessw3=Computer+internet+a ccessw4=Computer+internet+helpw5=How+to+format+a+computer+hard+drivew 6=How+to+format+a+computerc=6s=193.sig=Kh4EHx9oNeWbViVFs3J2zA Computer internet help http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Computer+internet+helpw1=Computer+ internet+securityw2=Computer+internet+businessw3=Computer+internet+acc essw4=Computer+internet+helpw5=How+to+format+a+computer+hard+drivew6= How+to+format+a+computerc=6s=193.sig=g-xfxmm7HENQULP2P3nJRg How to format a computer hard drive http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=How+to+format+a+computer+hard+drive w1=Computer+internet+securityw2=Computer+internet+businessw3=Computer +internet+accessw4=Computer+internet+helpw5=How+to+format+a+computer+h ard+drivew6=How+to+format+a+computerc=6s=193.sig=IquseY7siayuQNEnhbG oTw How to format a computer http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=How+to+format+a+computerw1=Compute r+internet+securityw2=Computer+internet+businessw3=Computer+internet+a ccessw4=Computer+internet+helpw5=How+to+format+a+computer+hard+drivew 6=How+to+format+a+computerc=6s=193.sig=P2Hp9dzFG2HyaWLeMOYjhQ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS *Visit your group svg-developers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers on the web. *To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- 1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop slavery. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.QUssC/izNLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers
[svg-developers] hello
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RE: [svg-developers] Macromedia Flex
The FLEX server product supports SVG. Under the hood it uses Batik with extensions to convert SVG into SWF. So, I would guess you could use a tool like Adobe Illustrator to create the SVG files which FLEX would convert into SWF. I don't remember all of the details, nor do I know future product plans in this area. Jon From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 8:43 AM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [svg-developers] Macromedia Flex At least one person in this group believes FLEX is a viable option for implementing a rich internet application based on widgets. I'd like to consider this (since there is the potential to significantly reduce the code base) BUT... I have downloaded the trial version of FLEX and can find no vector drawing tool Flex looks to me like a forms builder (aka ILOG). What am I missing? Where are the vector graphics tools in FLEX? - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS *Visit your group svg-developers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers on the web. *To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get Bzzzy! (real tools to help you find a job). Welcome to the Sweet Life. http://us.click.yahoo.com/A77XvD/vlQLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [svg-developers] Separating shapes and animation (XAML-like)
Once sXBL is available, it might help with situations like this. It is yet another tool that you can use when you want to create a re-usable template object and then create an instance of it. Jon From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of svg_tony Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:42 AM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [svg-developers] Separating shapes and animation (XAML-like) I've toyed around with the way XAML (like SMIL) separates the declaration of shapes and animations using timelines with TargetName or TargetID. There's a number of drawbacks as far as I can see it now if you want to do the same in SVG. I tried these: ?xml version=1.0 encoding=ISO-8859-1? svg xmlns:xlink=http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink; xmlns:svg=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg; defs rect x=0 width=50px height=50px id=myRectangle fill=green/rect /defs use xlink:href=#myRectangle animateColor attributeName=fill from=blue to=red begin=0s dur=6s repeatDur=indefinite / /use defs rect x=100 width=50px height=50px id=myRectangle2/rect /defs use xlink:href=#myRectangle2 animateColor attributeName=fill from=blue to=red begin=0s dur=6s repeatDur=indefinite / /use rect x=200 width=50px height=50px id=myRectangle3 fill=green animateColor attributeName=fill from=blue to=red begin=0s dur=10s repeatDur=indefinite / /rect /svg Drawback #1: You must put the shape in a defs-section, otherwise you end up with a second rectangle because of the use-element. Drawback #2: You cannot animate the fill, if the fill is already set on the original rectangle (myRectangle). This does not occur with inline animations, or if the fill is left out in the original. Drawback #3: I saw no way of putting an animate into a defs- section, then refer to it from an inlined use, like: defs animate id=a1 ... / /defs rect use xlink:href=#a1 / /rect Is there a good solution for this? Thanks, Toine. - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS *Visit your group svg-developers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers on the web. *To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get Bzzzy! (real tools to help you find a job). Welcome to the Sweet Life. http://us.click.yahoo.com/A77XvD/vlQLAA/TtwFAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Good day
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[svg-developers] Status
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[svg-developers] something for you
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Re: [svg-developers] Adobe Illustrator exporting SVG?
I will back up I'lam's response to say that Adobe continues to invest heavily in improving its SVG support in Adobe Illustrator. SVG support (particularly, SVG-Tiny) was one of the major engineering investment areas with the CS2 version of Illustrator. The investment continues: there will be further SVG improvements in the next version of Illustrator, also. Jon Ferraiolo Adobe Systems, Inc. At 04:02 PM 8/15/2005, I'lam Mougy wrote: Short answer, not true. Illustrator CS2 (and CS) tries to write primitive if it can. If you draw a perfect circle, it will write a circle element, if you draw an elipse it will write an elipse, if you draw rectangle (even rotated), it will write rect with the proper rotation, only in complex transformation things default to path element. On the other hand (this is only in CS2), if you import primitives, it will preserve them too, so if you import a line element, it will keep it line when exported, if you import an elipse that has rx=ry, it will keep it elipse, even though it looks like circle. In CS2, animation is preserved as well as any XML data that is not understood by Illustrator. This applies to script element, some defs, etc..., you will be able to see those unknown elements in the layer palette as objects that you can move around. The goal in Illustrator CS2, among small exported file size, is to round trip svg files that are not created entirely in Illustrator. I'lam --- Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is the following true? When exporting vectors to SVG, Adobe Illustrator creates only path elements, not SVG primitives. Even though Adobe Illustrator has an ellipse tool and a rectangle tool, it does not export rect or ellipse elements. circle, line, polyline, and polygon elements are not generated, either. Therefore, you cannot employ a technique (like a script or an SVG animation element) that manipulates a special characteristic of a primitive. For example, you cannot write JavaScript function to change the radius of a circle, because Adobe Illustrator will not export an object as a circle element. (Of course, you could always edit an SVG document by hand and replace a path element with a circle.) I can see that Illustrator CS2 does rely on path element but when I downloaded the trial version, I could see two two rect elements when I created svg file from Illustrator CS2 after using the rectangle tool in the shape toolbar. Does anybody knows how Illustrator exports SVG? What elements it uses etc..? thanks JM - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developershttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership -- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developerssvg-developers on the web. * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- font face=arial size=-1a href=http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12hhnbthv/M=362131.6882499.7825260.1510227/D=groups/S=1706030389:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1124160496/A=2889191/R=0/SIG=10r90krvo/*http://www.thebeehive.org Get Bzzzy! (real tools to help you find a job) Welcome to the Sweet Life - brought to you by One Economy/a./font ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Test
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Re: [svg-developers] SVG 3.02 -- 3.03
At 04:00 PM 6/29/2005, you wrote: I have an application that is rendered in SVG and works perfectly on 3.02. My clients installed and tried testing the application and the page doesn't work. I personally installed to 3.03 on my computer and the SVBG also doesn't work. Wondering if anyone might have an idea what the problem might be. I'm declaring the SVG within: svg xmlns=http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/; xml:space=preserve width=100% height=100% I am not sure this is your problem, but it should be xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg;. Jon and it's an embedded object. - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developershttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership ? LSpots keywords ? ? HM ADS ? -- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developerssvg-developers on the web. * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Fwd: Warning again
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Re: [svg-developers] SVG fonts in ASV
Adobe acknowledges that there is a bug in ASV3 where it does not implement the 'font-family' property correctly when a list of fonts are provided (or presumed). The CSS2 spec says that you are supposed to look for a matching glyph in each of the fonts specified in the 'font-family' property (and presumably include at one generic font as a fallback font even if it isn't listed), but ASV3 uses a simplified and incorrect approach where it picks a single font for any text run and does not do per-glyph checks as required by the CSS2 spec. It is almost certain that Adobe will not issue a dot release of ASV3 to fix this bug. Any fixes in this area would only come as part of a major new release if/when such a major new release were issued. Jon Ferraiolo Adobe At 07:07 AM 6/26/2005, Thomas DeWeese wrote: Hi Cameron, Phillipe, Cameron McCormack wrote: Philippe Lhoste: After some experimentation, it seems that ASV needs a missing-glyph element inside the font one. After I added one, it works fine, but of course (?), the glyphs E, L and O are rendered with the missing-glyph, not with the sans-serif font. Thanks Philippe, this fixed the problem! I don't know the spec. enough to say if this is the required behavior or not. This is not conformant behavior from the CSS 2 spec (15.5 step 7): If there is a matching font face, but it doesn't contain glyph(s) for the current character(s), and if there is a next alternative 'font-family' in the font sets, then repeat from step 2 with the next alternative 'font-family'. text font-family=test, serifhi/text my guess is that the 'h' and 'i' should be rendered with serif's glyphs, rather than with test's missing-glyph. At least, that is what Batik does. And it seems sensible. But in ASV it will use the missing-glyph. Batik's behavior is the correct behavior ASV's is not conformant to the CSS 2 specification. - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] i am desperate
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[svg-developers] Re: Re: corrected
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RE: [svg-developers] Options for inclusion of SVG and MathML in OpenReader format?
(I am a different Jon than the one who started this thread) Mark's comment below about XHTML2 and the Sidewinder viewer are all correct. However, I would add that the W3C has another standards effort in process right now, the Compound Document Formats (CDF) Working Group, which is working on the whole area of combining W3C markup languages into compound document formats.The first round of CDF is focused on compound documents by reference with an industry focus on mobile devices, particularly XHTML Mobile Profile, SVG-Tiny, CSS Mobile Profile, and ECMAScript Mobile Profile, where we want to set a low bar for mobile implementers to maximize the chance of strong interoperability on a short timescale. The OBJECT tag is primary means for achieving by reference. So far, I am not aware of CDF discussions relative to XHTML2 either positively or negatively. Certainly, XHTML2 should be discussed as CDF moves forward, particularly when the topic of compound documents by inclusion (e.g., XHTML with inline SVG) gets addressed. Jon Ferraiolo At 09:00 AM 5/26/2005, Mark Birbeck wrote: Hi Jon, Can I address some of your points with two different hats on! The first is as an Invited Expert on the HTML and XForms Working Groups, and the second is as a developer of products that aim to combine many of the languages that you mention. The OpenReader format, currently under development by the OpenReader Consortium, will, in its basic form, essentially be an encapsulation of an OEBPS 1.2 Publication. In turn OEBPS 1.2 is based on XHTML 1.1, and provides document extensibility and media fallback mechanisms. For more information on OEBPS 1.2, refer to http://www.openebook.org/oebps/oebps1.2/download/oeb12-xhtml.htmhttp://www.openebook.org/oebps/oebps1.2/download/oeb12-xhtml.htm . We wish to include support for both SVG and MathML in the OpenReader format. So what mechanism(s) do the SVG and MathML experts recommend for inclusion of islands of SVG and MathML markup within XHTML 1.1 documents? With my 'developer' hat on, you may want to look at our Sidewinder Viewer, available for download from the formsPlayer site. The viewer validates and renders XHTML documents that can contain XForms 1.0 or 1.1, SVG and MathML. There are still some holes in the schemas, but most things you would want to do can be done, although they are being tidied up a lot for the XHTML 2 work. Some examples are available with the download. Also, do SVG and MathML provide their own media fallback mechanisms [see note below], or will we need to provide that? With my 'Invited Expert' hat on, you may want to look at XHTML 2. One of the changes from 1.1 to 2.0 is that the @src attribute is now allowed everywhere. It works much like object works now, with the contents of the element coming in to play if the @src fails. This provides a very flexible fallback mechanism. (I recall seeing an attempt at an XHTML+SVG+MathML DTD/Schema. I think it was a success ;) ... But it did show how much work was required to manage all the permutations of languages. I also recall reading that using the object tag for inclusion of SVG and MathML is not recommended. Back to my developers hat--the Sidewinder Viewer does not need object tags, but it will automatically manage the Adobe plug-in for SVG, the Design Science plug-in for MathML and the formsPlayer plug-in for XForms. This means that you should be able to run the same document in Sidewinder, the appropriate build of Mozilla, Opera and so on. Regards, Mark Mark Birbeck CEO x-port.net Ltd. e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +44 (0) 20 7689 9232 w: http://www.formsPlayer.com/http://www.formsPlayer.com/ b: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/ Download our XForms processor from http://www.formsPlayer.com/http://www.formsPlayer.com/ - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developershttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] thanks!
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Re: [svg-developers] RE: Read this Article?
In terms of history, VML, and the W3C: In April 1998, Adobe, IBM, Netscape and Sun co-submitted PGML to the W3C. (Common speculation was that this was really an Adobe thing, which I definitely can validate as being mostly true.) In May 1998, Microsoft, Macromedia, Visio, Autodesk and HP co-submitted. (Common speculation was that this was really a Microsoft thing, which seems pretty clear based on how they went and shipped it.) Earlier in 1998, there was a Web Schematic submission from Oxford-Brooks Univ. in England. In August, 1998, the W3C held its first SVG WG meeting. Between August and October 1998, the SVG WG discussed and then published requirements for the SVG language. Based on those requirements and the various ideas from the three submissions, the SVG WG systematically defined the SVG language in such a way as to meet the stated requirements. Some of SVG's features were modeled after PGML (e.g., the SMIL Animation features). Other features were more like VML (e.g., the compact path syntax and the use of CSS). PGML was basically just an XML expression of the PostScript graphics model, but adding web things like opacity, interactivity, scripting and animation. VML generally is pretty good, but it could not be accepted as is by the W3C. For example, it has some weirdnesses regarding coordinate systems where object sizing can have a discontinuity across rotation at the 45 degree angle point. The SVG WG did not feel it was good that rotating an object via an animation would cause a discontinuous jump in the dimensions of the object as you cross the various 45 degree angle positions. There were a handful of other issues about VML. Most of these stemmed from VML's heritage as an XML expression of the particular set of features that ship with Office, versus the W3C's interest in a general-purpose graphics language. Jon At 10:06 AM 4/22/2005, you wrote: On Friday, April 22, 2005, 2:45:22 AM, Rick wrote: RB I see XAML in some ways as a convergence of XForms, XHTML, and SVG. RB It is often easier to be second and to avoid the mistakes of your RB predecessors. For example, SVG's decision to use CSS was a poor one RB in hindsight (its non-XML-ed-ness and minimal dynamism being the RB main reasons). I think that may be true, in hindsight. RB XForms is too lowest common denominator and lacking in some RB basic necessary UI components so as to be minimally useful. XHTML, RB well, it is what it is. RB Another example I frequently point to is VML. It did most of what RB SVG did, could be inlined in the browser, and (if I recall RB correctly), was even offered up for open applicability by Microsoft, RB but the MS haters took a different tack (maybe some of the W3C guys RB could correct/clarify my limited knowledge in this area). I fail to see how you would have accurate knowledge of that or where you would get MS haters from; however, your take on events is very far from the truth. VML was very much *not* offered to W3C. I believe the words were this is already implemented and we have no intention of allowing anyone else to change it. -- Chris Lilleymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Chair, W3C SVG Working Group W3C Graphics Activity Lead - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developershttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: corrected
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[svg-developers] fake
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[svg-developers] Re: Hello
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[svg-developers] Re: important letter
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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
Hi folks, As everyone knows very well by now, Adobe does not preannounce its product plans. Because of this, it is highly frustrating for me personally to not be able to provide details about what Adobe has under development, particularly to the pioneers in the SVG community who got on the bandwagon early and have helped all of the rest of us implement solutions. Unfortunately, all I can say at this point is that Adobe is working on a major viewer upgrade. Jon Ferraiolo Adobe Systems, Inc. At 01:25 PM 2/10/2005, welkerpaul wrote: Cor, you name it. I was waiting for Mr. Ferraiolo to speak up. Hence, just some spots: -Microsoft and others (including Autodesk!) submitted vml to w3c in early 1998 -Adobe and Others (including IBM, Sun) submitted pgml to w3c a few weeks later -MS had a native browser implementation ready (IE 5), vml had (*has* (google;-)) a tremendous reach -vml would give MS Office the ability to spread documents thought the web, both text and *inline* graphics. Isn't that a major pdf domain? -we know, no vml, no pgml, *all* together they cook up svg Ok, pdf and svg: -Acrobat Reader 5 (full install) shipped ASV 2 -ASV 3 already was a separate download -Acrobat Reader 6 (full install) would contain ASV5 (e.g. photo album stuff), but won't ship the browser integration -Addobe Reader 7 (full install) would contain ASV6, of course, won't ship the browser integration If you sum up, there's quite a large crowd out there having svg engines on their machines. These are svg's concealed assets! Do you have to be a Conspiracy theoretician to put the maladjustments down to politics? If you're curious what Adobe is taking care of read the `intelligent' pdf (xml empowered pdf) documentation at Adobe.com. If you still curious what's in pdf check out some of the Interactive 3D graphic models in PDF (ftp2.bentley.com/dist/collateral/Web/flyover_dtm.pdf, ftp2.bentley.com/dist/collateral/Web/SouthBeachMotorsfly3.pdf, ) !!'In hindsight, VML was pretty darn close to what was needed' 8-O Regards Paul PS descbiassed readers, skip this ;-)/desc Yet again, xaml is in the position to compete with pdf. This time the dominant ms windows user squad will get powerful native os (+hardware) display support and a xaml document generator on board. There's one thing for sure, MS will get the technology shipped to the mass. /PS --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Rick Bullotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Agree almost completely. The foundation for all success is ubiquitous or native browser support. Period. Flash succeeds because it can run just about anywhere in anything. http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/alternates/http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/alternates/ Without that type of broad based support, SVG may never get past its boutique usage stage. Applying the same logic, however, the same could become of (the vector graphics part of) XAML unless some type of multi-platform, multi- browser XAML graphics rendering engine is made available. An alternative path would be for SVG, or a subset of it, to be absorbed into XHTML, which might (somewhat) force the hand of anyone creating something browser-like to support SVG. Let's face it - all most of us really need is some relatively simple vector graphics rendered in our browsers. All of the exotic filters and transforms and some of the more esoterica in SVG are in the nice to have category. I'd be deliriously happy to have SVG Basic or even SVG Tiny supported natively by all major browsers. In hindsight, VML was pretty darn close to what was needed. It is a shame that the divergence occurred. I don't pretend to understand the politics or dynamics, but in any case, it suc%s for everyone involved. For now, we're sticking to SVG on the server-side for dashboarding applications, but I hope that can change in the future. - Rick -Original Message- From: Cor Hofman (SC :) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:07 PM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!! Hi, I have been following the SVG discussions for a couple of years now (and an early adopter as well). However the cry out to Adobe for support on SVG is quite old. Far too old To them it is just another business case. They 've invested some money and they want to see ROI now. In other words they need to have a profitable business model (paying customers!). Aparently they have not. Another gossip is that SVG could compete with their PDF technology (which is currently profitable!). The fact that this discussion lingers on and on, without possitive feedback from the (historical) biggest investor (or any other company for that matter) says more then enough I think. Unless there is a significant (profitable) demand for this technology shortly, MS will set
Re: [svg-developers] Help me, sXBL Implementation
Yes, that is the correct spec to implement, but the most current version is http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-sXBL-20041122. Jon Ferraiolo Adobe Systems, Inc. sXBL co-editor At 03:05 AM 1/13/2005, you wrote: Hi I wanna implement a xbl spec to extends xform use svg too many spec i can choice what do i do now, we implement sXBL: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-sXBL-20040901http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-sXBL-20040901 is right? - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developershttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Information
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[svg-developers] Mail Delivery (failure)
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