t-and-f: Masters milestone at Kezar Stadium
Y ask Y: Once upon a time, around 1965, a middle-aged San Diego lawyer named David Pain thought it would be cool if folks his age could have track meets of their own. He tested the waters by nagging meet directors to include a "masters mile" for men over 40. By 1969, he'd organized the first USA national masters championships, and after a milestone tour of Europe (with his wife, Helen, as tour director), the movement took hold in Europe and sparked the creation of the World Association of Veteran Athletes. On Sunday, October 29, the movement comes full circle with perhaps the strongest mile field in masters history getting ready to run for prize money at the I think it's safe to say that this upcoming masters invitational mile at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco on October 29 will be the most competitive masters mile race in history. Here are the competitors, vying for $1000, $500 $300 in prize money in each race: Men's Masters: Paul Fragua Steve Scott Kevin Ostenberg Dave Reed Jamin Aasum Johnny Gray Steve Haase Dave Clingan Anselm LeBourne Nolan Shaheed Brian Davis Women's Masters: Rose Monday Nancy Tinari Diane Hiel Debbie Barazza Sabrina Peters-Robinson Mary Trujillo Vicky Bigelow Champions Run For Children Elite Open Masters Mile (track mile $ prizes) Kezar Stadium San Francisco, CA
Re: t-and-f: Embarassment
Andrew, You're missing the point. The issue is not that recruitment of foreign athletes is dragging down US track and field as opposed to those that are lost to the "big three sports", but that our "farm system" (the NCAA)is spending more time and money recruiting and developing foreign athletes so that they can score conference or NCAA points than recruiting,developing and nurturing our own athletes that form the pool that will eventually come to represent our country at the international level. Along that same line, many are missing the point that one of the MAJOR problems that our sport has in our country is that many/most are interested in results and NOT in development. In many of the countries, there is great emphasis on development, here, everyone wants to win; get the fastest, strongest or most powerful, put them out on the track and/or field and have them compete and score as many points as possible. This is not development and many good/great talents quit the sport get injured or just plain burn out on it before they get to the highest level. --Original Message-- From: "Andrew Owusu" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: October 25, 2000 3:58:47 AM GMT Subject: Re: t-and-f: Embarassment I still do not understand some of you guys and I probably won't. As a foreigner who benefited because of overseas recruiting, it is hard for me to understand how some list members can squarely put the blame of recent sub par performances (medal count) of the US national team on foreign athletes on scholarship. When I first came to the US (Fall 1991), I could not believe the lack of interest in Track and Field. I use to spend a great deal of time wondering why many people did not care about the sport. Then it struck me one day. US is the only country that has 3 major sports (Basketball, Football and Baseball) of equal prestige. For the rest of the world, its probably soccer leaving Athletics (Track and Field) as a 2nd or 3rd most favorite sport. Therefore, the bulk of the blame for talent drain, deprivation of talent development, and the subsequent lack of interest in the sport within the US should be place on the shoulders of the "BIG THREE SPORTS". It would be naive to say that the recruitment of foreign-born athletes does not factor into this equation. Nevertheless, I know that its contribution is not as great as some would like us to believe. I asked Coach Hayes (MTSU) about a week ago to comment on the sub par performance (medal count) of the US Track and Field team during the Olympics. His answer was simple; "The rest of the world is catching up". For every foreign born athlete who went through the NCAA system (last 5 years), I can point out 1 or 2 who have also made it big on the world scene without going through the NCAA system. If you are wondering where some of the missing medals went, ask the folks from Saudi Arabia. This country would not have been considered a medal threat in Athletics 3 yrs ago. Yet, they won a silver medal (400m hurdles) in Sydney. For those who were in Sydney, you may have noticed that even INDIA, had 2 women (A qualifiers) in the Heptathlon. There is more than enough potential and talent even within the so-called small number (I think its very large though) pool at both the high school and the college level. All that is missing is how to find ways to maximize this potential, giving the fact that the rest of the world is catching up, irrespective of the fact that there are foreign born athletes within the NCAA system. I know that quite a number of African athletes who would in the past have sought scholarships in the US, now have the choice of joining the Olympic Solidarity program. As a result, I believe that this is really making it harder for coaches to recruit the same caliber of foreign athletes that they use to get 5-6yrs ago, leading to, in terms of recruiting numbers, less foreign athletes. For those who have been paying more attention, you may have noticed the changes in NCAA eligibility requirements, over the past 7 yrs, has made it a little harder to find qualified foreign athletes. GUYS THE WORLD IS GETTING SMALLER AND OTHER LESSER COUNTRIES ARE SLOWLY CATCHING UP. AND SO WHETHER SOME LIKE IT OR NOT, UNITED STATES WILL PROBABLY FIND IT HARDER AND HARDER TO MATCH THE MEDAL COUNTS OF PAST GAMES EVEN IF RECRUITMENT OF FOREIGN ATHLETES STOP. My 3 cents
t-and-f: Finished version: Masters milestone
Sent previous message prematurely. My apologies. Y ask Y: Once upon a time, around 1965, a middle-aged San Diego lawyer named David Pain thought it would be cool if folks his age could have track meets of their own. He tested the waters by nagging meet directors to include a "masters mile" for men over 40. By 1969, he'd organized the first USA national masters championships, and after a milestone tour of Europe (with his wife, Helen, as tour director), the movement took hold in Europe and sparked the creation of the World Association of Veteran Athletes. On Sunday, October 29, the movement comes full circle with perhaps the strongest mile field in masters history getting ready to run for prize money at the Champions Run For Children Open Masters Mile at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco. Competitors are vying for $1000, $500 $300 in prize money in each race. The masters mile field features: Steve Scott, American mile recordholder for life Johnny Gray, American 800 recordholder for life Anselm LeBourne, 1999 World WAVA M40 1500 champion Nolan Shaheed, world's best 50-and-over middle-distance runner And a cast of other outstanding runners over 40: Paul Fragua, Kevin Ostenberg , Dave Reed, Jamin Aasum, Steve Haase, Dave Clingan and Brian Davis The women's mile race is also packed, with Rose Monday, Nancy Tinari, Diane Hiel, Debbie Barazza, Sabrina Peters-Robinson, Mary Trujillo and Vicky Bigelow. (Only the addition of Mary Slaney and Ruth Wysocki would make this field as good as the men's.) The highlight, of course, is the showdown between Johnny Gray and Anselm LeBourne, both of whom skipped the Eugene masters nationals this past summer. Steve Scott will be hard pressed to keep up with these slightly younger runners. This appears to be the mile debut of Gray, who missed an opportunity to shatter the M40 world record in the 800 (1:51.25 by Peter Browne) at the USA Olympic Trials in Sacramento. (The world record was subsequently lowered to 1:50.69 by Ireland's Colm Rothery at Stretford, England, on Sept. 5, 2000) The masters outdoor world mile record is 4:02.53 by David Moorcroft of Britain. Gray has the best shot at that, if he's serious in training. We'll report results as soon as we get them. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
t-and-f: Embarassment
Andrew Owusu wrote US is the only country that has 3 major sports (Basketball, Football and Baseball) of equal prestige. For the rest of the world, its probably soccer leaving Athletics (Track and Field) as a 2nd or 3rd most favorite sport. Not so in the UK. I would argue that football (soccer), cricket and rugby have a greater hold on the public than track and field, certainly in terms of attendances and participation. Football we all know about but cricket's biggest crowds are in far bigger than track and field's both for domestic matches and internationals, as are rugby's. Randall Northam
RE: t-and-f: Embarassment
Not so in Ireland either, Gaelic Football, Hurling, Soccer, Basketball in that order. Athletics comes some way down the list. Mike Casey -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Randall Northam Sent: 25 October 2000 04:23 To: posting Subject: t-and-f: Embarassment Andrew Owusu wrote US is the only country that has 3 major sports (Basketball, Football and Baseball) of equal prestige. For the rest of the world, its probably soccer leaving Athletics (Track and Field) as a 2nd or 3rd most favorite sport. Not so in the UK. I would argue that football (soccer), cricket and rugby have a greater hold on the public than track and field, certainly in terms of attendances and participation. Football we all know about but cricket's biggest crowds are in far bigger than track and field's both for domestic matches and internationals, as are rugby's. Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: Embarassment
I guess I really did miss the point. I forgot about one the the main differences between the Canadian and US systems. Up here the grass roots, or school system, is for the most part completely voluntary. All most all of the coachs have a full time job and then coach on the side (and for many this is again full time). In most areas there are club coachs, school coachs and some that do both. Many of the larger universities in Canada with track programs) Toronto, Windsor) have an age-class club attached to their university team. I , for one, am an assistent coach at a University (the honourium is not big enough to update my pentium 75) as well as a middle school coach. I am also a club coach and am looking after a Provincial team . I also teach full time. The teaching is my only salary. I guess that up here we are lucky. We have a club system, small in my area, that serves as our grass roots program. But like any program it can be improved and the Hershey Program can be a good tool for the clubs to use. At 09:37 PM 10/24/00 -0500, you wrote: There's an obvious reason why college coaches can't be relied upon to develop a grass roots program. University assistant coaches probably have an average salary of $10,000 a year for a full-time job. You can barely live in Guatamala on that, much less the US. Most I've seen either have a second job or work track camps during the summer months so they can make some extra cash to survive. They don't have the time to coach up-and-coming kids. And if you're a university head coach, I doubt you spend your summer lounging around until the fall. Also, most high school track coaches are also assistant football coaches. Very few schools have coaches dedicated to one sport. Once track season is over (end of May for high schools), they have to begin working on the next sport which is usually football. If they don't switch gears, they're out of a job. s.devereaux Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
t-and-f: US Youngsters
Hi All The debate about the US education system is very interesting but to me the production of talented youngsters is not a problem in the US. Rather, it's keeping talented youngsters in the sport. There are two aspects to this, as I see it. First, how to keep them from other pro sports, or at least get them to take track more seriously; second, how to ensure those athletes who stay in the sport are nurtured and brought through to long, well-advised careers. Good athletes can now make good money in tf, albeit not at the level of an NFL wide receiver. HSI have shown that assembling a group for both training and management purposes can pay enormous dividends (as indeed the SMTC showed in the 80s and 90s). What can be done to encourage more such centres of excellence? Justin ** Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in the message (or responsible for the delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply Email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet Email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO Ltd or its Group/Associated Companies shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by them. Abbott Mead Vickers.BBDO Limited. Registered in England. Registered Number 1935786. Registered Office 151 Marylebone Rd, London NW1 5QE. Telephone 020 7616 3500. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] **
t-and-f: More Olympic Memories
In no particular order Joaquim Cruz in LA 1984. Such grace and power as he left Coe in his wake. A measure of his dominance was that Coe had no complaints - he was beaten by a better man. (Cruz ran 1:41.77 later that year, which by rights should have given him a share of the WR since Coe's 1:41.73 should really have been rounded up). Wells vs Mennea in Moscow 1980. Wells must have thought he had the double in the bag, but Mennea made up around 3m in the last 60m to win by 2/100ths. Agony for Wells but a deserved title for an athlete who in my view has always been under-rated. Quincy Watts in Barcelona 1992. What power and grace - 43.50 made to look so easy you'd bet your house that he'd be the one to go on to break the WR. What became of Watts (a former teenage sprint prodigy)? On the subject of 400m running former teenage sprint prodigies, does anyone know what became of William Reed? He ran 10.0 at age 16 and close to 45 seconds at 17 if I remember rightly. In fact, 'where are they now' could be a very interesting topic! Justin ** Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in the message (or responsible for the delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply Email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet Email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO Ltd or its Group/Associated Companies shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by them. Abbott Mead Vickers.BBDO Limited. Registered in England. Registered Number 1935786. Registered Office 151 Marylebone Rd, London NW1 5QE. Telephone 020 7616 3500. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] **
t-and-f: Trivia
An odd trivia question in that it's easy to find out the answer, but interesting in that the answer is surprising: What is the Kenyan 800m record and who set it, when? Justin NB It's not a trick question - I'm not including Wilson Kipketer. ** Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in the message (or responsible for the delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply Email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet Email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO Ltd or its Group/Associated Companies shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by them. Abbott Mead Vickers.BBDO Limited. Registered in England. Registered Number 1935786. Registered Office 151 Marylebone Rd, London NW1 5QE. Telephone 020 7616 3500. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] **
Re: t-and-f: US Youngsters
Good athletes can now make good money in tf, albeit not at the level of an NFL wide receiver. I'd dispute this. I think that GREAT athletes can make good money in TF - merely good athletes (and I mean good in world class sense, and not in a "relative to the general population" sense) are picking among the scraps for travel money, some pocket change appearance fees, and maybe even shoes. OTOH, merely "good" professional football players can expect to have a shot at a 200 - 300K salary for a few years in the NFL. Merely "good" MLB baseball players routinely sign multi-year deals in the 3-4 million a year range. Merely "good" basketball players from the US who end up not making the NBA can make far more money playing in second-tier leagues in Europe than all but a few track stars will. A friend/coworker who I used to train with at lunch, who had been All-American in the 3K in college, used to lament "being the 10th best 3K/5K runner in the US might get you some shoes. Being the 10th best shortstop in the US will get you a 3 year - 15 million dollar deal." Of course, Pete and I talked baseball a lot because we were (and still are) in a rotisserie league together. I seriously doubt that there are too many serious baseball players out there who are in Track and Field rotisserie leagues, and the sad fact is, that for 1/2 to 3/4 of the US Olympic 4x100 Relay Team, the ONLY time most people in the US have ever read or heard their names was because of their celebration antics. Let's face it - more people in the US could tell you this morning who Benny Agbayani is than Angelo Taylor. That kind of media saturation is very hard to market against to kids. I'm still convinced that there was a kid at the HS I help coach at who has the natural talent to be one of America's next great milers - but he grew up idolizing basketball players, and was determined to be a great basketball player, and after striking out with most Division I recruiting took an appointment to the USAF Academy to play hoops (after spending this year in their Prep School). The kid has good basketball skills, mainly honed through dedicating his life to his jump shot since he was 8, but he's got an amazing combination of natural endurance and excellent speed. But he, his relatively affluent family, and his friends spend all their time watching basketball, and track barely registers. HSI have shown that assembling a group for both training and management purposes can pay enormous dividends (as indeed the SMTC showed in the 80s and 90s). What can be done to encourage more such centres of excellence? If you look at the centers of excellence, they always seem to have one factor - a great coach, someone with the knowledge and ability to inspire. But you know, outside of the collegiate ranks, there's not a lot of money for coaches, either... Phil
Re: t-and-f: Trivia
According to http://www.hkkk.fi/~niininen/africa.html as of May 13, 1998 it's 1:42.28Sam Koskei KEN Cologne260884 Bill Bahnfleth At 01:18 PM 10/25/2000 +0100, Justin Clouder wrote: An odd trivia question in that it's easy to find out the answer, but interesting in that the answer is surprising: What is the Kenyan 800m record and who set it, when? Justin NB It's not a trick question - I'm not including Wilson Kipketer. ** Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in the message (or responsible for the delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply Email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet Email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO Ltd or its Group/Associated Companies shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by them. Abbott Mead Vickers.BBDO Limited. Registered in England. Registered Number 1935786. Registered Office 151 Marylebone Rd, London NW1 5QE. Telephone 020 7616 3500. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** _ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _
t-and-f: Junior Club in Aachen, Germany?
I've been working with a 16-year old transfer student from Aachen who came out for XC this fall - he'd never run before (hadn't really done any organized sports, really), but has taken to it pretty well, and is at around 18:30 - 5K shape after only a couple months running. He's got decent enough speed to run well in the 800/1500 this spring, but he's returning home. Does anyone know how to find a club in Aachen where he could find people to train with and a coach to guide him? Please respond directly to me. Thanks, Phil Ponebshek [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Re: Embarassment
I take offense at the statements about the Associations failing miserably with grass-roots development. In Southern California, we have well over 100 registered youth clubs and have many, many meets each year. We have a very active Youth Committee who is able to be self-sufficient financially. And we do this with little help from the national office. Moreover, a ton of collegiate athletes have come out of the So Cal youth programs, particularly from clubs like the Pasadena Running Roses, LA Jets and the Cheetahs. And many of the these collegiate athletes have gone on to the elite level. Think twice before you criticize the Associations. Scott Davis President - Southern California USATF
Re: t-and-f: Re: Embarassment
Since this discussion will not die I will chime in. The US presence at Chile was remarkable to Americans, given the general understanding of our system, and how difficult the timing was. For everyone else it is a chance to feel hopeful. I relate it to the hubbub that came up after Dwain Chambers beat Maurice in England. To the British it was a ray of light, to someone like myself it was inconsequential. It is all a matter of perspective. It has spurred talk about the US youth program, and that should be healthy and productive, I think. The minor issue has been ML-F. This is my opinion alone, and I am not arguing against anyone or lobbying to have anyone agree with me. I think he is soft, and it showed in his decision. His subsequent dominance in Chile showed me that he should have made the move to the next level. Yes, he is young, but I am talking attitude. I do not see the fire in him that is needed to make it on the international level. I admittedly could be wrong, and the next few years will prove one way or the other, but today I see him as soft. Which says that he made the right decision. He would get mauled by the big dogs, so maybe it is best he grows in his element. I just hope he does not become a victim of big fish, small pond. William E.
t-and-f: MLF
On this comment: I think he is soft, and it showed in his decision. His subsequent dominance in Chile showed me that he should have made the move to the next level. Yes, he is young, but I am talking attitude. I do not see the fire in him that is needed to make it on the international level. That's a pretty tough indictment. I'd only say that about someone based on some very conclusive evidence. Willy, what are you basing this view on? Exactly how many times have you 'seen' him at all, since I assume you must have done so several times in order to draw such a sweeping conclusion. You might like to bear in mind the following: * he has only just turned 18 * his 10.10 at age 17 this year was a massive breakthrough - before this year his best was in the 10.3s * going into 2000, the WJC was the obvious target - there was no reason to suppose he would be in contention for an Olympic spot until he ran the 10.10 * he would almost certainly NOT have been picked for the OG in an individual capacity anyway as Gardener has better credentials this time - it's not as if MLF was offered a spot and turned it down At the time the decision to train for the WJC was taken, therefore (ie a year or so ago, perhaps more) there was no suggestion that he would dominate (or even win) the WJC, nor that there was any chance of an OG spot. So, at what point did MLF decline to 'make the move to the next level'. And for an 18 yr old world youth champion, how is it that the WJC is NOT the 'next level'. Apologies to those bored with this thread. So am I. I simply feel that some offensive and ignorant remarks are being directed towards MLF by people who should know better. Justin ** Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in the message (or responsible for the delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply Email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet Email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO Ltd or its Group/Associated Companies shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by them. Abbott Mead Vickers.BBDO Limited. Registered in England. Registered Number 1935786. Registered Office 151 Marylebone Rd, London NW1 5QE. Telephone 020 7616 3500. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] **
RE: t-and-f: Trivia
Bill wrote: According to http://www.hkkk.fi/~niininen/africa.html as of May 13, 1998 it's 1:42.28Sam Koskei KEN Cologne260884 Indeed it is. I thought it surprising that, despite the Kenyan advances in recent years, the national 800m record is 16 years old. Having said that, it's a very very good record, set when second to Joaquim Cruz's 1:41.77 WR near-miss after the LA games. At the time it was the 3rd fastest ever run - even faster than Coe's 1:42.33 WR from 1979. A world 800m a-t list can be found at Peter Larsson's excellent website: http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm Justin ** Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in the message (or responsible for the delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply Email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet Email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO Ltd or its Group/Associated Companies shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by them. Abbott Mead Vickers.BBDO Limited. Registered in England. Registered Number 1935786. Registered Office 151 Marylebone Rd, London NW1 5QE. Telephone 020 7616 3500. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] **
Re: t-and-f: Trivia
That's why I gave the date. Here's a site that claims to have been updated on 25 Sep 00 http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm All-time men's best 800 m 1 1.41,11Wilson KipketerDEN 70-12-121 Köln 1997-08-24 2 1.41,24Wilson KipketerDEN 70-12-121rA Zürich 1997-08-13 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe GBR 56-09-291 Florens 1981-06-10 4 1.41,73Wilson KipketerDEN 70-12-121 Stockholm 1997-07-07 5 1.41,77Joaquim Carvalho Cruz BRA 63-03-121 Köln1984-08-26 6 1.41,83Wilson KipketerDEN 70-12-121 Rieti 1996-09-01 7 1.42,17Wilson KipketerDEN 70-12-121 Tokyo 1996-09-16 8 1.42,20Wilson KipketerDEN 70-12-121 Bruxelles 1997-08-22 9 1.42,27Wilson KipketerDEN 70-12-121 Bruxelles 1999-09-03 10 1.42,28Sammy KoskeiKEN 61-05-142 Köln 1984-08-26 wb At 04:08 PM 10/25/2000 +, B. Kunnath wrote: The site could be wrong as it also lists Morceli, Komen and Tergat as current record holders when they are not. According to http://www.hkkk.fi/~niininen/africa.html as of May 13, 1998 it's 1:42.28Sam Koskei KEN Cologne260884 Bill Bahnfleth _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. _ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _
t-and-f: Good money?
Good money is not defined by the salaries of the pro sports. Good money is defined by lifestyle and the economy. Good money can be made in track these days. What is done with that money is a diiferent story. The G.O.A.T.
RE: t-and-f: Trivia
Indeed. The fact that Koskei is still the fourth fastest runner over this distance and has the tenth fastest performance speaks to just how good this mark was at the time. Of the top 10 performances, Kipketer has 7 while Coe and Cruz have just one each. It is also remarkable that Coe and Cruz posted those marks in 1981 and 1984, respectively. One must go down to Rodal at number 18 with 1:42.58 to find someone other than Kipketer from the 1990s. wb At 04:55 PM 10/25/2000 +0100, Justin Clouder wrote: Bill wrote: According to http://www.hkkk.fi/~niininen/africa.html as of May 13, 1998 it's 1:42.28Sam Koskei KEN Cologne260884 Indeed it is. I thought it surprising that, despite the Kenyan advances in recent years, the national 800m record is 16 years old. Having said that, it's a very very good record, set when second to Joaquim Cruz's 1:41.77 WR near-miss after the LA games. At the time it was the 3rd fastest ever run - even faster than Coe's 1:42.33 WR from 1979. A world 800m a-t list can be found at Peter Larsson's excellent website: http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm Justin ** Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in the message (or responsible for the delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply Email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet Email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO Ltd or its Group/Associated Companies shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by them. Abbott Mead Vickers.BBDO Limited. Registered in England. Registered Number 1935786. Registered Office 151 Marylebone Rd, London NW1 5QE. Telephone 020 7616 3500. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** _ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _
RE: t-and-f: Trivia: why not much improvement?
On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Justin Clouder wrote: 1:42.28Sam Koskei KEN Cologne260884 Indeed it is. I thought it surprising that, despite the Kenyan advances in recent years, the national 800m record is 16 years old. Having said that, it's a very very good record, set when second to Joaquim Cruz's 1:41.77 WR near-miss after the LA games. At the time it was the 3rd fastest ever run - even faster than Coe's 1:42.33 WR from 1979. I think the real interesting question is why has the 800m record been immune to the large leaps that we have seen in the 1500 meters and up? There has been essentially no significant improvement in the last two decades. My only conclusion is that EPO has little effect on a distance that short. Paul *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mark Lewis-Francis (was: Re: t-and-f: Embarassment)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone help me with my 70's history, but I believe in the seventies we won the 100m one time, in the 80's we won the race once, in the 90's we won the race none, and did not medal in 96. Didn't win the 100 at all in the 70s (Borzov and Crawford), but Lewis won twice in the 80s (unless your name is Tony Craddock :-) ). -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck
RE: t-and-f: Trivia: why not much improvement?
There has been essentially no significant improvement in the last two decades. My only conclusion is that EPO has little effect on a distance that short. Paul Yes and No ... At the time (1979 and 1981) Coe's 800m records were considered far out of reach for the rest of the world. So, while they have been beaten by only .49 and .62 this is a significant margin of improvement on such a mark. The 1500m record around that time was Ovett's 3:31.36 in 1980 (can't remember who broke it before Cram's 3:29.67 in 1985 ... and I don't have the internet to check it). The 1:41.73 WR was considered the toughest record in the middle and long distances. But, the point is this: Many men had come within 1.2 seconds of Ovett's new 3:31, including Coe, Walker, Wessinghage, Bayi, etc. ... but, how far ahead of the rest of the world was Coe's 1:41.73? Nobody was within 1.5 seconds. In 1980, nobody ran under 1:44 on a regular basis ... 1984 was really the watershed year with Jones, Gray, Cruz and Koskei breaking into the All-time list and running several 1:42-43's. The all-time performances list has been overhauled rather thoroughly (albeit mostly by one man) since then. I am betting that you don't see many 1980's runners before Rodal (#18) either. 1 1.41,11Wilson Kipketer DEN 70-12-121 Köln 1997-08-24 2 1.41,24Wilson Kipketer DEN 70-12-121rA Zürich 1997-08-13 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe GBR 56-09-291 Florens 1981-06-10 4 1.41,73Wilson Kipketer DEN 70-12-121 Stockholm 1997-07-07 5 1.41,77Joaquim Cruz BRA 63-03-121 Köln 1984-08-26 6 1.41,83Wilson Kipketer DEN 70-12-121 Rieti 1996-09-01 7 1.42,17Wilson Kipketer DEN 70-12-121 Tokyo 1996-09-16 8 1.42,20Wilson Kipketer DEN 70-12-121 Bruxelles 1997-08-22 9 1.42,27Wilson Kipketer DEN 70-12-121 Bruxelles 1999-09-03 10 1.42,28Sammy Koskei KEN 61-05-142Köln 1984-08-26 My opinion of this theory is that EPO is less of a contributor to performance enhancement because 800m performance depends much less on Aerobic capacity than the 1500m (and EPO only directly boosts Aerobic capacity). I have seen more in-depth analyses of record progressions for the 800-1m that supposedly prove an equal performance improvement over all the middle and long distances. However, if you assume that most (or all) of the improvements to the WR's in the 800-1m are due to EPO over the last 8-10 years ... then the 10k improved 46 seconds (27:08 to 26:22) or 1.84 seconds a lap, and the 5k improved about 19 seconds (12:58 - 12:39) or 1.52 seconds per lap. If EPO use could yield exactly proportionate gains in the 800m/1500m (compared to the longer distances), you would expect a 6.9 second improvement in the 1500m and a 3.68 second improvement in the 800. This kind of improvement (the same percentage gains) would put the WR's somewhere around 1:38.05 and 3:22.77 for the 800/1500. Clearly, if you are assuming the above explanation, then the drug is more "helpful" in terms of gross improvement in seconds in the longer races. The physiological capacities boosted by EPO (VO2max) are clearly less significant in the 800m/1500m than they are for the 5k/10k. One can see this clearly by the amount of relative improvement between the two Olympic distances, 5k/10k: 1.84 secs a lap and 1.52 secs a lap. Both are distance races, yet the shorter one has improved much less in an absolute sense since 1990. Most people would agree that the WR's for the 5 and 10 in 1990 were fairly equal (12:58 and 27:08) ... whether these WR's COULD have been influenced by EPO is an entirely different debate (and if you use WR's from long before the age of EPO, it only strengthens the argument that the drug has much smaller effects on the shorter distances). Similar to the fact that most of the sub-27:00 10k's have been run by three men, yet the all-time list has been completely re-written since 1990, and most of the sub 12:50's have been run by three men, yet that list too is completely re-written since 1990 ... the 800m all-time list has been severely overhauled for the top-50 performances in the last ten years, but the performances have been racked up by very few people. -Original Message- From: P.F.Talbot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 1:18 PM To: Justin Clouder Cc: 'TF List' Subject: RE: t-and-f: Trivia: why not much improvement? On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Justin Clouder wrote: 1:42.28Sam Koskei KEN Cologne260884 Indeed it is. I thought it surprising that, despite the Kenyan advances in recent years, the national 800m record is 16 years old. Having said that, it's a very very good record, set when second to Joaquim Cruz's 1:41.77 WR near-miss after the LA games. At the time it was the 3rd fastest ever run - even
t-and-f: Youth Programs
In our area of Canada track is not the major sport or even a major sport. We come somewhere after hockey, baseball, basketball and soccer. I believe that it is more popular in Ontario but not this far east. By numbers we would be lucky to be anywhere above 8th or 9th. And I must disagree with those who said that track is the most popular youth sport. Reasonable people can disagree and what I have seen places track not even in the top ten. - Ed Parrot Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
RE: t-and-f: Trivia: why not much improvement?
My opinion of this theory is that EPO is less of a contributor to performance enhancement because 800m performance depends much less on Aerobic capacity than the 1500m (and EPO only directly boosts Aerobic capacity). With EPO, you also have to take into account the recovery factor. It is a similar argument to why low level steroids would be helpful to a longer distance runner, even though gross power development is not a primary limiting factor in the event, per se. The drug enhances recovery from higher intensity sessions, which allows for a greater density of training. An argument could be made for EPO's effect on middle distance performance if it is used in the base building phase to augment aerobic development. This could theoretically make for quicker recovery from high intensity anaerobic sessions, where the "meat" is for the middle distance athlete. Anecdotally, that is one result we've seen with our high-low training groups, and it is logical to extend these "findings" to EPO use. RC
Re: t-and-f: Embarassment
How is the college recruitment of foreign athletes NOT hurting US athletic development? Foreign athletes must be on a 100% scholarship. With only 12 1/2 scholarships to go around for the men, you'd better be a foreigner or able to score 30-40 points per meet to get a full ride. Compared to football, where even the 2nd string punter is on a full scholarship, track is fighting an uphill battle in getting an athlete from a middle or low income family to choose a 50% or less track scholarship over a 100% football or basketball scholarship. It's a shame that our high school national record holder and top junior pole vaulter Eric Eshbach (5.55m) is on only an 80% scholarship, while his own university gives a 100% scholarship to a British shot putter currently under an IAAF drug ban. s.devereaux At Jay Ulfelder wrote: On Tue, 24 October 2000, curtis taylor replied to Andrew Owusu with: You're missing the point. The issue is not that recruitment of foreign athletes is dragging down US track and field as opposed to those that are lost to the "big three sports", but that our "farm system" (the NCAA)is spending more time and money recruiting and developing foreign athletes so that they can score conference or NCAA points than recruiting, developing and nurturing our own athletes that form the pool that will eventually come to represent our country at the international level. The NCAA is not, nor should it *ever* be expected to be, a "farm system" for U.S. athletic development. The NCAA is an association of U.S. colleges and universities. The missions of those schools individually, and of the NCAA collectively, have nothing to do with preparing the United States to compete against other countries. There is not, nor should there ever be, any "nationalist" agenda to U.S. collegiate sports. As far as most students, alumni and administrators are concerned, the emphasis on conference or NCAA points is probably just about right. And who else are these schools supposed to answer to? Only by default have collegiate programs become the closest thing we have to a farm system for track and field. But do not confuse the absence of an alternative with the presence of a responsibility. In any event, I, for one, would be disgusted to see American colleges and universities--particularly those that are privately funded--decide that they have a greater interest in certain student-athletes based solely on the fact that those student-athletes were born in the United States. - Jay Ulfelder -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] is brought to you by the Stanford Alumni Association and Critical Path. -- "I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't give a damn."
t-and-f: development
In a message dated 25/10/2000 7:56:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In many of the countries, there is great emphasis on development, here, everyone wants to win; get the fastest, strongest or most powerful, put them out on the track and/or field and have them compete and score as many points as possible. This is not development and many good/great talents quit the sport get injured or just plain burn out on it before they get to the highest level. I have always enjoyed istvan Balyi's approch to the long term devlopment of an athletes career which has four phases. Train for Fun (damentals) Train to Train Train to Compete Train to Win We do not partcicpate in the first two on most occasions and rarely actually approach the third. The final phase i where we tend to start here in the states. Of course having coaches and a system that have the knowledge and encourages this view would be a nice step in overall development of USA TF. IMHO Randy Huntington
t-and-f: Fwd: USATF NEWS NOTES - 10/25/00
From USATF. Paul Merca Contact: Tom Surber Media Information Coordinator USA Track Field 317-261-0500 x317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org USATF NEWS NOTES Vol. 1, Number 50 October 25, 2000 Greene faces "Hot Seat" tonight (Wednesday) on ABC Look for double Olympic gold medalist Maurice Greene to appear in the "Hot Seat" tonight (Wednesday, Oct. 25) on ABC's hit game show, "Who Wants to be a Millionaire." The show will air at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time. Check local listings. In addition to the originally scheduled broadcasts on October 22 and 24, producers decided to include the Olympians on Wednesday's broadcast. Half of each player's winnings will be donated to the charity of the athlete's choice, with each athlete guaranteed to earn a minimum total of $16,000 (with half to charity). Women's pole vault gold medalist Stacy Dragila also appeared on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" but did not advance to the Hot Seat. Dragila record ratified by IAAF Stacy Dragila's outdoor pole vault world record of 4.63 meters (15 feet, 2.25 inches) has officially been ratified by the International Amateur Athletic Federation, the world governing body of the sport. Dragila set the mark during the U.S. Olympic Track Field Trials in Sacramento, Calif., on July 23, 2000. She shared the previous standard of 4.60 (15-1) with Australia's Emma George. George's mark came on February 20, 1999, and Dragila equaled the mark later that summer in winning the 1999 IAAF World Championships in Seville, Spain, on August 21 of that year. Dragila also holds the world indoor record of 4.62 (15-1.75), set on March 3, 2000, at the U.S. Indoor Championships in Atlanta. Dragila set the Olympic record with her gold- medal winning clearance of 4.60 (15-1) at the inaugural women's pole vault competition at the 2000 Olympics in Sydney. Quintet of track field Olympians to honored Thursday in Atlanta Five U.S. stars who competed at the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney will be honored on Thursday, October 26, at "The City of Atlanta's Official Tribute and Celebration for the Metro Atlanta USA Olympic Athletes." Track and field honorees include 400-meter hurdles gold medalist Angelo Taylor, 110-meter hurdles silver medalist Terrence Trammell and decathlon bronze medalist Chris Huffins. Additional honorees include eighth-place long jumper Dwight Phillips and 100-meter hurdler Sharon Couch. The Atlanta program will be held at noon in the City Hall atrium. Larrieu Smith, Bowden elected to San Jose Sports Hall of Fame Two all-time track greats, Francie Larrieu Smith and Don Bowden, have been elected to the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame in California. The induction ceremonies will take place on November 2. Known for her amazing longevity in addition to her many accomplishments, Francie Larrieu Smith's career is unique in U.S. history. During an international career that spanned four decades and included 35 American records, Larrieu Smith competed on 28 national teams and won 21 national titles. A five-time Olympian, her best placing was in 1988 in Seoul, where she finished fifth in the 10,000 meters. The U.S. flag bearer during the opening ceremonies at the 1992 Games in Barcelona, Larrieu Smith was inducted into the National Track Field Hall of Fame in 1998. Previously known for his prowess at 880 yards, Don Bowden shocked the track world alike when as a freshman at the University of California-Berkeley, he broke the national record in his first try at the mile. Two years later in 1957, Bowden made history by becoming the first American to break the 4-minute barrier in the mile with a time of 3:58.7. A 1956 Olympian at 1,500 meters, Bowden also helped set the world record in the 4x880-yard relay in 1958. Gotham cabs feature New York City Marathon race director New York City Marathon race director Allan Steinfeld has joined a long list of famous sports, movie and music personalities as part of the New York "Talking Taxi" program. The service features the recorded voices of celebrities who remind passengers to buckle up and take their taxi receipts. Steinfeld's message began running in October and will run for 4-6 months. This year's New York City Marathon is November 5. (http://www.nyrrc.org). # # #
t-and-f: Peahen alert
Netters: My alma mater, St. Peter''s College, has made little contributions to the international world of track and field in its (once interruped) century and a quarter of chartered existence, but we may be on the threshhold of doubling our current involvement in the elite circles of the sport. The Peaocks---a unique college nickname, by the way---already have one of the nation's best younger walkers among their alumni, Sean Albert. Now, the school has a junior distance runner who, despite a belated start in the sport, is making some waves this CC season. Katie Kopacz is a junior (the senior designation in the present net report of the MAAC meet is an error, as are many other such class listings for that meet) who broke the collegiate record for the Disneyworld course last weekend at 17:07 and has an outside chance of qualifying for the ig show this year at the Region II meet at Happy Valley on Nov. 11. Katie was a soccer player at Holy Family Academy, Bayonne, where her only track experience was a couple of weeks during her senior outdoor season. She went to St. Peter's to play soccer and did so for two years, but also took up running seriously and became the school's first ECAC scorer in the 5K at last winter's indoor meet. Now she is in her first harrier season and has simply run away from the field in most of her starts, including the Florida race which she won by several hundred yards. One time this fall, she was actually too fast. In an amateur road race at Jersey City;s Liberty State Park, she finished 2ighth overall and went by mistake into the men's chute. The officials at first refused to believe that a woman could run the course that fast---she was four minutes ahead of the next finisher---but her coach appealed to some of the spectators, who luckily included distance maven Tom Fleming,.and she got her award. After her Florida win, which was less than 30 seconds off the overall course mark for women, she told her coach that she had plenty of running left, so it is possible she will be able to match or better that time on the more difficult course at Penn State.. Ed Grant
RE: t-and-f: Trivia: why not much improvement?
In a message dated Wed, 25 Oct 2000 4:36:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Mcewen, Brian T" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, if you assume that most (or all) of the improvements to the WR's in the 800-1m are due to EPO over the last 8-10 years ... ..you'd be wrong. sideshow
t-and-f: Former USC track coach Wolfe dies at 78
Former USC track coach Wolfe dies at 78 LOS ANGELES (October 25, 2000 7:12 p.m. EDT http://www.sportserver.com) - Vern Wolfe, who guided Southern California to seven men's NCAA championships during his 22 years as coach, died Wednesday in Fallbrook, the school said. He was 78. Complete story at, http://www.sportserver.com/
RE: t-and-f: Trivia: why not much improvement?
In a message dated Wed, 25 Oct 2000 1:47:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "P.F.Talbot" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There has been essentially no significant improvement in the last two decades. My only conclusion is that EPO has little effect on a distance that short. Paul That's your only conclusion? You couldn't possibly have come to the conclusioin that Coe was so great that he put the 800 record at a level that no one would could match for many years to come? Who held the 5,000 and 10,000 records in 1981? Rono. One of the greatest talents ever to be sure, but not remotely as dedicated and as hard a trainer as today's Kenyans. sideshow
Re: t-and-f: Foreign athlets, was Embarassment
In a message dated 10/25/00 6:33:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How is the college recruitment of foreign athletes NOT hurting US athletic development? Foreign athletes must be on a 100% scholarship. With only 12 1/2 scholarships to go around for the men, you'd better be a foreigner or able to score 30-40 points per meet to get a full ride. Compared to football, where even the 2nd string punter is on a full scholarship, track is fighting an uphill battle in getting an athlete from a middle or low income family to choose a 50% or less track scholarship over a 100% football or basketball scholarship. It's a shame that our high school national record holder and top junior pole vaulter Eric Eshbach (5.55m) is on only an 80% scholarship, while his own university gives a 100% scholarship to a British shot putter currently under an IAAF drug ban. s.devereaux At Every year at some point the same old thread is brought up. When will you understand that many of us foreigners bring a level competition and training that is "foreign" to many of the incoming US freshmen. Take the foreigners out of the NCAA and what happens to the level of competition. This is the ideal interantional setting for a good high schooler to be exposed to in order to see development and gain experience in high quality competition. And since when have foriegners had to have a 100% scholarship. I don't remeber that being the rule. Possibly the polevaulter mentioned above was only given an 80% scholarship because he only competes in one event. I would assume it is very likely that your shot putter also competes in the discus as well...thereby earning more points for the team (although it disgusts me that known drug users are allowed to receive scholarships and compete in the NCAA since the NCAA only recoginizes their own in house drug testing). It really bothers me that we foriegners are usually the first one's that get bashed when it comes to the develepment of your US athletes. Maybe you need to take a closer look at your high school system and the USATF Junior teams and decide where your priorities should be. Is it more important to run great at the Golden West or National Scholastic or Penn Relays or should you be encouraging your kids to compete at the highest levels possible and start putting more emphasis on your Junior teams. And along the same lines, when will more college coaches start to realize not only the importance (experience wise) but also the opprotunity that a young athlete has when they are given the chance to represent their country internationally. To deny that to a developing athlete just wrong. To place the blame on the foreign athletes is a crutch for the lack of development in the high school ranks. I know while I was here I helped my teammates and gave my American competition something to strive to achieve. I think it is only for the best that great American athletes like Paul McMullen, Michael Stember, and Gabe Jennings had the opprotunity to race against the likes of myself, Bernard Lagat, Graham Hood, and Marko Koers. This attitude towards foreign athletes needs to end. We are the least of America's track and field problems. Kevin Sullivan Asst. Cross Country Coach University of Michigan
t-and-f: Exercises for jumping events
I was curious to know whether anyone knew of any exercises that were good for building muscle for jumping events (triple jump, long jump, and high jump.) Are there any exercises that I should avoid? You can email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]Thank you! _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
RE: t-and-f: Trivia: why not much improvement?
However, if you assume that most (or all) of the improvements to the WR's in the 800-1m are due to EPO over the last 8-10 years ... ..you'd be wrong. sideshow you'd be naive malmo
Re: t-and-f: Exercises for jumping events
netters Erin Dunham wrote: Are there any exercises that I should avoid? Yeah i can think of one. DON"T EVER RACEWALK! You'll have vertical of 2 inches in about a week:) Good Training, Michael Rohl
RE: t-and-f: Trivia: why not much improvement?
Rono. One of the greatest talents ever to be sure, but not remotely as dedicated and as hard a trainer as today's Kenyans. sideshow Yeah, right. malmo
