Re: t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
On Sunday, January 29, 2006, at 10:59 AM, Dan Kaplan wrote: This is a pretty major dropoff in Kenyan dominance, no? Didn't they previously have more like 40-50 represented in the top-100? Dan --- Roger Ruth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MEN'S STEEPLECHASE 2005 Country Top 100Highest Kenya23 2 I would have guessed he was right, maybe just because it seems like there are always lots of those Kenya shirts at the front in any international steeple race, but in terms of total number in the top 100, they seem to have been remarkably consistent over the recent years. I found these totals and top rankings in my lists since 1998: 199820 (1) 199922 (1) 200018 (1) 200119 (2) 200220 (2) 200319 (2) 200422 (2) 200523 (2)
Re: t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
Interesting. Was it the 5k/10 list that they filled with greater numbers, or something altogether different I'm remembering? Dan --- Roger Ruth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I found these totals and top rankings in my lists since 1998: 1998 20 (1) 1999 22 (1) 2000 18 (1) 2001 19 (2) 2002 20 (2) 2003 19 (2) 2004 22 (2) 2005 23 (2) http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
That seems about normal to me. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Kaplan Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:00 PM To: Roger Ruth; t-and-f@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase This is a pretty major dropoff in Kenyan dominance, no? Didn't they previously have more like 40-50 represented in the top-100? Dan --- Roger Ruth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MEN'S STEEPLECHASE 2005 Country Top 100Highest Kenya 23 2 United States 9 19 France 7 11 Poland 6 31 Spain 5 21 Morocco 5 4 Qatar 4 1 Russia 4 37 Great Britain 3 73 Germany 3 44 South Africa3 40 Sweden 3 24 29 countries represented 100th = 8:33.70 http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
The charts summarize the number of athletes each country placed in the world top-100 outdoor rankings for 2005 (plus ties) and the highest-ranked of these. Since one or two placings may represent only exceptional individuals, rather than national program strength, I've listed only countries with three or more athletes in the top 100 (plus ties). The data base drawn upon is the world deep list from Mirko Jalava's web site http://www.tilastopaja.net>. MEN'S STEEPLECHASE 2005 Country Top 100 Highest Kenya 23 2 United States 9 19 France 7 11 Poland 6 31 Spain 5 21 Morocco 5 4 Qatar 4 1 Russia 4 37 Great Britain 3 73 Germany 3 44 South Africa 3 40 Sweden 3 24 29 countries represented 100th = 8:33.70 WOMEN'S STEEPLECHASE 2005 Country Top 100 Highest United States 17 14 Kenya 13 4 Russia 8 2 Poland 5 3 Spain 4 46 Great Britain 4 30 Portugal 4 13 Brazil 3 56 France 3 16 Romania 3 11 36 countries represented 100th = 10:12.35
t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
The charts summarize the number of athletes each country placed in the world top-100 outdoor rankings for 2004 (plus ties) and the highest-ranked of these. Since one or two placings may represent only exceptional individuals, rather than national program strength, I've listed only countries with three or more athletes in the top 100 (plus ties). The data base drawn upon is the world deep list from Mirko Jalava's web site http://www.tilastopaja.net>. MEN'S STEEPLECHASE 2004 Country Top 100 Highest Kenya22 2 United States 12 18 France 9 16 Morocco 7 3 Spain 7 11 Qatar 4 1 Poland 4 23 South Africa 4 64 Ethiopia 3 43 Germany 3 75 29 countries represented 100th = 8:31.06 WOMEN'S STEEPLECHASE 2004 Country Top 100 Highest United States 24 4 Russia10 1 Kenya 6 5 Spain 6 29 Romania 5 7 France 3 11 Poland 3 27 China 3 46 Great Britain 3 50 37 countries represented 100th = 10:18.69
t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
Thanks for all the quick responses (re. National Depth--Hurdles) explaining why Felix Sanchez topped the 400mH list, although the only Dominican Republic athlete in the top 100 (viz., living and training in the U.S.). I almost hesitate to note that the women's steeplechase provides another instance where the world #1, Alesya Turova of Belarus, is the only athlete in the top 100 representing her country. Is there some similarly simple explanation for her? MEN'S STEEPLE 2002 WOMEN'S STEEPLE 2002 Country Top 100 Highest Country Top 100 Highest Kenya 20 2 United States 29 9 United States 12 19 Russia 7 13 France 11 11 Poland 5 2 Morocco 9 1 France 5 3 Spain7 8 Germany 4 5 Poland 5 44 Romania 3 4 Germany 5 65 Czech Republic 3 7 Algeria 4 31 Portugal 3 10 Italy3 54 China3 25 Italy3 53 Finland 3 55 Ukraine 3 56 25 countries represented33 countries represented 100th = 8:34.04 100th = 10:29.10 After I posted the women's list last year, James Field wrote that the database I used included some marks made with shorter than regulation water jumps. This still may be the case. I anticipate a similar problem in the coming seasons with the pole vault, where marks made with the previous standard pegs of 75mm offer some advantage over those made with the new regulation 55mm. RR
t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
The charts that follow summarize the number of athletes each country placed in the world top-100 rankings for 2001 (plus ties) and the highest-ranked of these for each event. Since one or two placings may represent only exceptional individuals, rather than national program strength, I've truncated the lists to countries with three placings or more. The data base drawn upon is the world list from Mirko Jalava's web site http://www.tilastopaja.com/. MEN'S STEEPLECHASE 2001 WOMEN'S STEEPLECHASE 2001 Country Top 100 Highest Country Top 100 Highest Kenya 19 2 United States 39 5 United States 13 16 France 10 6 Spain9 8 Russia 6 4 France 8 10 Germany 4 13 Morocco 7 1 Italy4 59 Germany 5 27 Poland 3 1 Italy5 67 Sweden 3 20 Algeria 4 28 Finland 3 29 Poland 4 37 Russia 3 47 28 countries represented25 countries represented 100th = 8:36.20 100th = 10:31.13
Re: t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
When I posted national depth summaries on the steeplechase, with Kenya having 18 runners and USA 15 in the top 100, I noted: " . . .it doesn't seem to me that the United States should rank so closely. That becomes apparent in the highest-ranked U.S. representative (Tony Cosey) standing only at 35th place." In a personal e-mail, Michael Scott wrote, You may need to check the data. The top two US steeplers were Mark Croghan (8:11.29 - 8/18, Monaco GP) and Pascal Dobert (8:15.77 - 7/20, US Oly Trials) -- both WELL ahead of Cosey's top performance (also recorded on 7/20 at the Oly Trials. I did check the data and Michael was right. Dolbert ranked 19th and Croghan ranked 21st. Sorry. That's an artifact of the process by which listing countries in the top 100 depends on visual scanning of the list and recognizing country names as being previously listed or not. Also an artifact of aging memory. The USA total in the top 100 remains at 15, since that part of the process of summary is partly automated. Again, I'm sorry for the mistake. Michael also had some useful comments about national representation and distribution in general. I'll ask him to forward them to the list or give permission for me to do so. Regards, Roger
Re: t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
After I posted the steeplechase charts, Mike Scott wrote to me with some observations on the data and my comments. I thought they should be shared with the list and Mike said that I might do so: I agree that Kenya will dominate the top 15-20 performances, while the US's performances are clustered "mid-pack". Part of this may be due to the fact that only the most elite Kenyan steeplers get a chance to run the steeple outside of Kenya. The majority of Kenyan steeplers have to run their steeples at 7000' altitude in Nairobi (sp?), at which altitude even the most elite Kenyans don't run much under 8:20. Part of the issue with the women's steeple is that it is rare for all the top steeplers to gather (at least in the US); most of the time the female steeplers either run "main stream" events (1500, 3000, 5000) or are running solo time trials. Virtually every woman in the field in Sacramento ran either a personal or seasonal best -- mostly 'cause they hadn't had the competition up to that point. If you look at the top US men's performances, you'll see that an exceptionally large number were also recorded at our Oly Trials -- one of only two races a year where the top steeplers gather here. Mike
t-and-f: National Depth--Steeplechase
The charts summarize the number of athletes each country placed in the world top 100 rankings for 2000 (plus ties) and the highest-ranked of these. Since one or two placings may represent only exceptional individuals, rather than national program strength, I've truncated the lists to three placings or more. The data base drawn upon is the world list from Mirko Jalava's web site http://www.tilastopaja.com/. MEN'S 3Km Steeplechase 2000 WOMEN'S 3Km Steeplechase 2000 Country Top 100 Highest Country Top 65 Highest Kenya 18 1 United States 15 7 United States 15 35 Russia 8 2 Spain9 8 France 8 14 France 8 18 Romania 5 1 Morocco 5 2 Australia4 19 Italy5 32 Brazil 4 39 Algeria 4 10 Ukraine 3 3 Germany 4 16 New Zealand 3 29 Russia 3 26 Finland 3 31 Portugal 3 49 Sweden 3 32 Australia3 75 Ethiopia 3 81 28 countries represented16 countries represented 100th = 8:33.56 65th = 10:44.10 These summaries considerably confuse my preconceptions about the relation of program depth and program quality. On the men's side, that's only because of the apparent parity of KEN and USA in national depth. Having watched a few instances of Kenya's "take no prisoners" team tactics in the steeple, it doesn't seem to me that the United States should rank so closely. That becomes apparent in the highest-ranked U.S. representative (Tony Cosey) standing only at 35th place. The women's summary is even more difficult to interpret. First, there's the problem that only 65 women in the world are ranked. While that's up from 26 on Mirko's list last year, it still is difficult to understand why more women in more countries aren't taking advantage of the opportunity to be leaders in the introduction of this event. Last year, Jim Fields responded with a longer list than Mirko's. Perhaps he'll do so again. Some troubling data anomalies: Six of seven Romanian rankings (and the two Tunisians) are from a single race. Ten of fifteen USA runners scored their Top-100 marks at the national championships in Sacramento. The three Finnish and three Swedish results all are from the dual meet between these two countries. In all of these instances, the concentration of marks might possibly be due to unusually high-quality, highly competitive fields for the particular event. I would think an equally tenable explanation might be infrequent other opportunities for competition. Two runners from Poland ranked in the top 65 on the basis of times at Warsaw on 24 June and at Poza Rica on Sept. 30. No other athletes appear on the list with times from these meets. The two Norwegian runners are ranked from a meet at Steinkjir on 11 August. Again, no other finishers are listed in the top 65. Since a third-place finisher in either of these meets would have qualified for the top 100 in the world list, there seems ample reason to wonder whether these fields (and others) included the minimum of three competitors required for certification of an event. I may be mis-reading the indications in the data. I would find it useful for someone with specialized interest in the steeplechase (Fields?) or in women's athletics (Louise Tricard?) to update us on the progress of interest in the women's steeple and their informed hunches about how long it might take for the event to be established in NCAA, world championship and olympic competition.
