[OSM-talk] 竹島問題をどう避ける か
三浦です。 こういうのは先手をうって、身を守るべきですね。 http://www.openstreetmap.jp/showmap_beta?zoom=14lat=4472564.15583lon=14679636.64432layers=B0 この島、まだOSMのデータが存在していないはずですが、どうタグ付けしましょ うかね。 高度に政治問題・外交問題に「しない」ために、触れないのが無難ですが、 みんなで編集するというプロジェクトの性格上、あらかじめ保護しておくのが 良いように思えます。 wikipediaだと、両論併記の形で記載しています。 たとえば、問題になるのは、name:kr、name:ja,nameタグ is_inタグですね。 このあたりは、この３月にOSMのＭＬで議論されていて、 台湾と中国の話で、中国が中国視点で不適法と見なした地図サービスを 落としている、と言う話から発展しています。 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-March/024827.html データとしては複数の視点を盛り込む、レンダリングの際には、複数のレンダリ ングが あるのだから、それぞれの視点でしたければレンダリングすればよい。ＯＳＭは 中立であるべき。 中立はなかなか難しいから、国連の解釈に従うということでいいのでは。 といったところで、議論が進んでいます。２国間の係争中の場合は、どうなんで しょうね。 We should be neutral. Maybe we should avoid such a political problem. How to handle it? 三浦 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Mouse over function for POIs in Potlatch?
Hi, It would be nice to have a mouse over function in Potlatch editor at least for point features. Is it possible? Now you must click on each POI in order to see what it stands for and this is both slow and leads to unintentional edits. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mouse over function for POIs in Potlatch?
Jukka Rahkonen wrote: It would be nice to have a mouse over function in Potlatch editor at least for point features. Is it possible? Now you must click on each POI in order to see what it stands for and this is both slow and leads to unintentional edits. One of those things I've been meaning to get round to. Please put it in trac so I don't forget! cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Names, split streets and relations
Gervase Markham wrote: If you label all three ways with name=Foo Street, you get Foo Street rendered 3 times along a fairly short length, at least in Osmarender. If you leave the name off the outer ends, then those ways are incorrectly assumed to be unnamed streets when they have a name. In other words, you've made the data bogus for rendering reasons. What is the correct response to this? The obvious thing to do is attach the street name to a relation which incorporates all three ways. Do the main renderers yet correctly render street names expressed as relations? I realise I've blethered on about this before, but IMO this adds significant complexity to editing. Relations are less intuitive to the newbie, and our existing editors are better set up for editing tags than relations. If Osmarender doesn't unify three continguous, identically-named ways into one label, that's an issue with Osmarender, not a reason to change an editing practice that has been established for several years. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Names, split streets and relations
Gervase Markham wrote: If you label all three ways with name=Foo Street, you get Foo Street rendered 3 times along a fairly short length, at least in Osmarender. If you leave the name off the outer ends, then those ways are incorrectly assumed to be unnamed streets when they have a name. In other words, you've made the data bogus for rendering reasons. What is the correct response to this? The obvious thing to do is attach the street name to a relation which incorporates all three ways. Do the main renderers yet correctly render street names expressed as relations? I realise I've blethered on about this before, but IMO this adds significant complexity to editing. Relations are less intuitive to the newbie, and our existing editors are better set up for editing tags than relations. If Osmarender doesn't unify three contiguous, identically-named ways into one label, that's an issue with Osmarender, not a reason to change an editing practice that has been established for several years. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
This is a mail that I have been wanting to send for some time, but wanted to think a little more about the subject before I actually did. The topic is how the maps of OpenStreetMap are actually used by ordinary users. I know that the data of OSM is supposed to be used in new exciting ways like the cycle maps, but the majority of the users are just going to use what the programmers have made available to them. So the question then becomes, is the current renderings good? For which purposes? Before we can discuss how good the maps are, we have to describe the intended use cases. I will start with my own here, and hope that you will fill in your own ways of using maps in general and OSM in particular. I recently bought a cheap navigator, but before that I often used a commercial Swedish map services to navigate to places when I went there for my work. I'd print out the map on paper on a low zoom level, showing where I would go on large roads. Then I'd print out maps using higher and higher zoom levels closer and closer to my goal so that I can see which intermediate and smaller roads that I'd have to take to reach my goal. So, would OSM work for that usecase? No, I don't think so. Here is why: * Names! There are far too few names on the map, especially on low zoom levels. It's difficult to get a feeling for where you are and orient yourself on the map if you cannot find names on the map. The commercial maps show lots and lots of names, and that is a good thing. We should make names appear on the maps earlier. * Distinctions between roads. In opposition to the case for names, there are too many roads on the large scale maps. Here is what the current map looks like around my home city: http://www.openstreetmap.com/?lat=58.33lon=15.408zoom=10layers=0B0FTF There is too little distinction between the motorway, the few primary highways and the secondary. I don't think the tertiary highways should even be on that map. Once they are all mapped they will provide a messy background making the important roads even more difficult to see. * Marking important roads. In the map above, you can also see that there is no marking of even the motorway (E4) or primary roads (in this case national roads 34 and 50). This is like names for cities, towns and villages: it makes it more difficult to follow where you are on the map. So, what are other use cases for OSM? Are the current OSM renderings good for those use cases? Do we need more different renderings for different use cases? I think that OSM has reached a state of maturity where we need to start discussing how the default renderings are used in real life. -Inge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
On 28/07/2008 10:44, Inge Wallin wrote: So the question then becomes, is the current renderings good? For which purposes? Everyone will have their own desires and requirements. To achieve what people want, I think easy configurability is what is needed. Pre-rendered map tiles make that hard, but doing it live is extremely demanding. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] (was: Italy Video) - in case of future requests related to Riflessioni sul tema(tismo) and post scriptum
All, I am the author and producer of the Italy Video which generated interest during SOM08 and which generated some interest in the post SOTM week. John (McKerrell) - I hope your SOTM review from last Thurday went just as well without the high resolution video. I spoke to Simone,also to thank him for having re-exposed the video to the community in Limerick following the initial postings I made in January. Based on this and other recent conversations, I would like to share some points of interest, should there be future requests in relation to this video and/or other material currently available on the web and authored by us (=GFOSS.it and other individuals relating to it) 1. The Italy video [title: Riflessioni sul tema(tismo)] is currently available through the youtube version http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=_ZOQSn5tyqQ It should be cited as Riflessioni sul tema(tismo), by pibinko, Italy 2008. FYI - following the world premiere in January 2008 I had requests to dub the video in Spanish, to add other scenes and other very interesting ideas which would be wonderful to make happen in a CC-BY-NC-SA modeit is good to see that whenever the video re-surfaces, new interest is generated. it would be of benefit to any project referring to CC as a licensing model to make some of this happen ;) 2. A high resolution version of the video has been available via FTP for a few months, following the Arezzo Mapping Party. This version is no longer on line. If anybody did download the high(er) resolution version, I'd appreciate to know. I am too lazy to check server logs at present. also note that the high resolution version is *better* than the youtube one, but would not be qualified as a real production video. 3. I have the possibility of rendering a DVD-quality version of the video, as well as other strains of the same material. This won't take more than a few hours, but we need to put this in the pipeline of other ongoing activities (of which maybe less than 10% OSM-related). We will be glad to consider requests, but planning will be of the essence. Just send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we can see if/no sooner than when your request can be accomodated. 4. As any other content which is generated for not-for-profit awareness raising (or even for commercial reasons, as a matter of fact) we, as the GFOSS.it association, would be glad of being notified of cases where such a video has generated interest. At present, the best way to do this is by means of comments to the youtube version of the video (using the comments section on youtube). If you don't like the idea of posting your comments on that site, you can still send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 5. If you feel we should use a different model for our awareness raising activities, I will be glad to learn of ideas on how to change/improve it. Thank you for your attention, and regards Andrea Giacomelli vice president and media relations manager - GFOSS.it - Italian OSGeo Chapter p.s. if any video editor is interested: we have substantial portions of footage from the Jan-Jul 2008 campaigns where GFOSS.it has collaborated with Italian OSM activists. We have edited instant short movies (all available on youtube, again...look for the gfoss tag), but we could consider opportunities to assemble more of the footage we are currently keeping in our drawers... p.p.s. this opportunity does not strictly apply to OSM-related material...a lot more is on free geographic information in general. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
Hi, So, what are other use cases for OSM? Are the current OSM renderings good for those use cases? Do we need more different renderings for different use cases? We are not a map rendering project. We are a Geodata collection project. The fact that we have maps at all is more or less to show off what you can do with our data (plus, perhaps, as a feedback/debugging tool for our users); we do not aim to cater to every end-user's need with the pre-made maps we offer. If anything, we should aim to make it easy for other people to create suitable maps for whatever community they are in. I.e. we should not change our maps to make them suitable for your purpose, but we should enable YOU to create maps that are suitable for your purpose and others with the same requirements. We could waste an enormous amount of time trying to discuss which kinds of default maps we should offer and how they should be styled, and we'll probably never reach results. I hope that, in the long run, OpenStreetMap will *not* offer *any* maps, just map data from which loads and loads of third parties create whatever maps they need. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
Inge Wallin wrote: * Distinctions between roads. In opposition to the case for names, there are too many roads on the large scale maps. Here is what the current map looks like around my home city: http://www.openstreetmap.com/?lat=58.33lon=15.408zoom=10layers=0B0FTF There is too little distinction between the motorway, the few primary highways and the secondary. I don't think the tertiary highways should even be on that map. Once they are all mapped they will provide a messy background making the important roads even more difficult to see. Some interesting points. We are, in a way, a victim of our own success: the balance on the maps looked absolutely perfect about six months ago. Now that we have many more roads, some zoom levels can look a bit different - and it may be time to remove highway=tertiary from z10 on Mapnik, for example. (Personally I think it'd be better if people just used highway=tertiary less but I may be in a minority on that one. ;) ) That said, usable clear maps is not the only metric we should work by. Showing off our coverage and completeness is another one - indeed, if you follow Frederik's argument (which I have a lot of sympathy with), you could argue that it's the main one. So it could sometimes be considered useful to have a slightly more cluttered map than would otherwise be the case, simply to show off how much stuff we have - and, in other areas, how far we have to go. I know very little about the Osmarender layer, but certainly, Steve Chilton revises the Mapnik layer constantly: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/log/applications/rendering/mapnik/osm.xml and I'm sure would be receptive to suggestions. Bear in mind, of course, that there are certain technical issues with all the renderers - label placement is the bugbear for any automated cartography. On a related issue, I think you underestimate the usefulness of the alternative maps with this: The topic is how the maps of OpenStreetMap are actually used by ordinary users. I know that the data of OSM is supposed to be used in new exciting ways like the cycle maps, but the majority of the users are just going to use what the programmers have made available to them. I don't use OSM for planning car trips. It's not quite good enough in the UK[1]: the usability isn't sufficiently better than Google Maps, and the completeness isn't there, yet. But I _do_ use OSM for cycling, because there, our map is streets ahead of anything else available. There is no better map of the (UK) National Cycle Network, full stop. Ok, ours isn't complete for all areas, but it is for many; the site is fast; the data's accurate; you can put it on a GPS. This isn't true of any other NCN map. And unlike the car trips, you can't use the NCN without a map: I could find my way from Charlbury to, I dunno, Llanwrtyd Wells by car without a map - road signs take care of that - but Charlbury to nearby Banbury on the NCN is really hard unless you have a map, because the signs are erratic. This isn't just my opinion. It's quite telling that if you look on the UK roadgeek site, www.sabre-roads.org.uk (dominated by motorists), they don't quite get OSM: they just whinge about lack of completeness. But the cyclists love it - I've seen very positive reviews on uk.rec.cycling, forums.ctc.org.uk, sustransrangers.org.uk. Right now, the majority of the users for whom OSM is _the_ _best_ _map_ _available_ are exactly those who are using the new and exciting layers. cheers Richard [1] This argument is quite different in the Netherlands, of course! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
Hi, It's quite telling that if you look on the UK roadgeek site, www.sabre-roads.org.uk (dominated by motorists), they don't quite get OSM: they just whinge about lack of completeness. Same here with pocketnavigation.de... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OpenMoonMap
Spotted this this-morning. http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/2008/07/28/lasois Get ready for the scramble for domain registration... -- Nick Black http://www.blacksworld.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] post by mistake
Dear mappers, I'm afraid I've mistaken sending a Japanese message here which should be send to talk-ja. In talk-ja, we discuss how to avoid political editing, inspired by discussion about China and Taiwan. Of coarse, maybe we should be neutral. Can anyone point out where is good reference for it? Thanks, Hiroshi ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the us ability of the current maps
On Monday 28 July 2008 12:48:56 Richard Fairhurst wrote: But I _do_ use OSM for cycling, because there, our map is streets ahead of anything else available. There is no better map of the (UK) National Cycle Network, full stop. Ok, ours isn't complete for all areas, but it is for many; the site is fast; the data's accurate; you can put it on a GPS. This isn't true of any other NCN map. And unlike the car trips, you can't use the NCN without a map: I could find my way from Charlbury to, I dunno, Llanwrtyd Wells by car without a map - road signs take care of that - but Charlbury to nearby Banbury on the NCN is really hard unless you have a map, because the signs are erratic. This isn't just my opinion. It's quite telling that if you look on the UK roadgeek site, www.sabre-roads.org.uk (dominated by motorists), they don't quite get OSM: they just whinge about lack of completeness. But the cyclists love it - I've seen very positive reviews on uk.rec.cycling, forums.ctc.org.uk, sustransrangers.org.uk. Right now, the majority of the users for whom OSM is _the_ _best_ _map_ _available_ are exactly those who are using the new and exciting layers. Very true. My point was just that currently it's pretty difficult to set up a mapping service. The one that I know of -- the NCN -- is probably very good. I wouldn't know, since it doesn't cover where I live. And so far I don't know about any others. I have toyed with the idea of setting up a map server for Sweden and possibly Denmark, Norway and Finland with my own tile server, using the Swedish colors and icons. That would be in line with what Frederik Ramm wrote. Would it be possible to get the URL http://se.openstreetmap.org/ for that? I think it's even possible to get some small amount of funding for that, isn't it? -Inge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:16:53PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: [...] change our maps to make them suitable for your purpose, but we should enable YOU to create maps that are suitable for your purpose and others with the same requirements. Yes, we should. So lets see about the things Inge mentioned... On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:44:35AM +0200, Inge Wallin wrote: So the question then becomes, is the current renderings good? For which purposes? Unfortunately there are many different reasons why the rendering is sub-optimal. Your three examples show three different reasons for why this can happen: * Names! There are far too few names on the map, especially on low zoom levels. It's difficult to get a feeling for where you are and orient yourself [...] The biggest problem around place names is currently that there are only a few levels for places: city, town, village, hamlet and suburb. And there is no way to mark capitals. So you always seem to have too few or too many place names. We need more finegrained control here, for instance by tagging places with population numbers. OSM needs: Tagging schema for more details on place names. You then need: Updated mapping scheme to use those. * Distinctions between roads. [...] See Freds comment. Depending on your goal you can already do that in your own map any way you like. OSM needs: Nothing. You need: Change your mapping scheme. * Marking important roads. [...] Probably missing data. And difficult to render well. More experimenting and improvement of renderer software needed. OSM needs: More data. Better rendering software. You need: To make use of that once its available. Jochen -- Jochen Topf [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenMoonMap
El Lunes, 28 de Julio de 2008, Nick Black escribió: Get ready for the scramble for domain registration... Better, pop Sinatra's Fly me to the moon into your music player and sing along... Fly me to the moon let me get traces among those stars let me see how mapnik renders on Jupiter and Mars In other words, upload nodes In other words, render tiles -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega [EMAIL PROTECTED] The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -- Friedrich Nietzsche [1844 - 1900] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] post by mistake
Hiroshi Miura wrote: Dear mappers, I'm afraid I've mistaken sending a Japanese message here which should be send to talk-ja. In talk-ja, we discuss how to avoid political editing, inspired by discussion about China and Taiwan. Of coarse, maybe we should be neutral. Can anyone point out where is good reference for it? Not a reference, but there has been discussion over actions in the Cyprus area of the map and similar problems elsewhere. I think the 'discussion with editors' approach has been working in Cyprus ( although I stand to be corrected ? ) as there is no way of blocking problem editing. Even when it's accidental. Rolling back inappropriate changes has been done, but the persuasion of editors to 'play within the rules' is the best way forward in the absence of being ABLE to block editing of areas except by approved editors. I think need to 'legislate' in software has been avoided to far, but if other 'politically sensitive' areas need help - that may need reviewing again? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the us ability of the current maps
On Monday 28 July 2008 12:16:53 Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, So, what are other use cases for OSM? Are the current OSM renderings good for those use cases? Do we need more different renderings for different use cases? We are not a map rendering project. We are a Geodata collection project. The fact that we have maps at all is more or less to show off what you can do with our data (plus, perhaps, as a feedback/debugging tool for our users); we do not aim to cater to every end-user's need with the pre-made maps we offer. Maybe so. But your point would perhaps be a bit stronger if not: * The Logo in the upper left of openstreetmap.org said The Free Wiki World Map (not Geodata Collection). * The first sentence of the text under the logo said OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world., not ...is a free collection of geo data It's easy to get fooled from that, you know. ;-) If anything, we should aim to make it easy for other people to create suitable maps for whatever community they are in. I.e. we should not change our maps to make them suitable for your purpose, but we should enable YOU to create maps that are suitable for your purpose and others with the same requirements. Two things. First: YES, please make it easier to create suitable adapted maps. Second: My point wasn't to make it perfect for *me*, but to make the default maps more usable for its intended purpose. That purpose is not stated anywhere -- that I could find. We could waste an enormous amount of time trying to discuss which kinds of default maps we should offer and how they should be styled, and we'll probably never reach results. I hope that, in the long run, OpenStreetMap will *not* offer *any* maps, just map data from which loads and loads of third parties create whatever maps they need. Now, that's a bit pessimistic, isn't it? never get results? Heck, we have very nice results already. I was just talking about making it even better than it already is. The long run is the long run, and you may be right. But we are not there yet, and in the mean time I think we should offer the best possible map from the data as possible. Richard Fairhurst wrote in another mail that Showing off our coverage and completeness is another use of the default map. That's a very good purpose, but it doesn't conflict with making it more usable for normal people. I do understand that having normal people accessing the servers will make very big demands on them, so the idea with the current maps could even be to make them more difficult to use in real life. I can understand that, but in that case it should perhaps be explained somewhere. -Inge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 02:21:05PM +0200, Jochen Topf wrote: The biggest problem around place names is currently that there are only a few levels for places: city, town, village, hamlet and suburb. And there is no way to mark capitals. There is always population=20, etc which can help you to find the biggest ones. And what prevents us from adding capital=yes to those cities? I don't think that the tagging is insufficient today. OK there might be a more subjective important city tag, and there are problems with suburbs and all that. But I don't see that point as a big problem. [skipped lots of good stuff] spaetz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
2008/7/28 spaetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 02:21:05PM +0200, Jochen Topf wrote: The biggest problem around place names is currently that there are only a few levels for places: city, town, village, hamlet and suburb. And there is no way to mark capitals. There is always population=20, etc which can help you to find the biggest ones. And what prevents us from adding capital=yes to those cities? I don't think that the tagging is insufficient today. OK there might be a more subjective important city tag, and there are problems with suburbs and all that. But I don't see that point as a big problem. I would say having population = associate with towns/suburbs etc should drastically help with the ability to render names at appropriate zoom levels. Is there any way to do clever work regarding the number of major roads in the facinity? As that could help to indicate the seniority of a locality. As well as capitals, I'd really like to see islands named. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 02:48:15PM +0200, spaetz wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 02:21:05PM +0200, Jochen Topf wrote: The biggest problem around place names is currently that there are only a few levels for places: city, town, village, hamlet and suburb. And there is no way to mark capitals. There is always population=20, etc which can help you to find the biggest ones. And what prevents us from adding capital=yes to those cities? I don't think that the tagging is insufficient today. OK there might be a more subjective important city tag, and there are problems with suburbs and all that. But I don't see that point as a big problem. I find 207 000 places in Europe and only 57 000 population tags. Actually better than I thought. Probably from some import. But from the 1044 cities only 297 have such a tag. So there still is some work to do before this can be used in the renderer. I can't find a capital tag on MapFeatures. And its not enough anyway, because we need the different levels. Not very difficult to do, but somebody has to write that up and people have to tag the data before it can be rendered. So, yes, in the grand scheme of things, this problem is a small problem, but for the labelling of place names some more work has to be done on it. Jochen -- Jochen Topf [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
2008/7/28 Jochen Topf [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 02:48:15PM +0200, spaetz wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 02:21:05PM +0200, Jochen Topf wrote: The biggest problem around place names is currently that there are only a few levels for places: city, town, village, hamlet and suburb. And there is no way to mark capitals. There is always population=20, etc which can help you to find the biggest ones. And what prevents us from adding capital=yes to those cities? I don't think that the tagging is insufficient today. OK there might be a more subjective important city tag, and there are problems with suburbs and all that. But I don't see that point as a big problem. I find 207 000 places in Europe and only 57 000 population tags. Actually better than I thought. Probably from some import. But from the 1044 cities only 297 have such a tag. So there still is some work to do before this can be used in the renderer. I can't find a capital tag on MapFeatures. And its not enough anyway, because we need the different levels. Not very difficult to do, but somebody has to write that up and people have to tag the data before it can be rendered. So, yes, in the grand scheme of things, this problem is a small problem, but for the labelling of place names some more work has to be done on it. One would think that getting all of the capitals tagged would be easy, however going and grabbing it from sites linked to google I'm assuming would almost certainly be a no no. Can we use information from wikipedia? For example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals If I can use that, then I can find all the capitals, and just tag them. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
Hi, * The Logo in the upper left of openstreetmap.org said The Free Wiki World Map (not Geodata Collection). * The first sentence of the text under the logo said OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world., not ...is a free collection of geo data It's easy to get fooled from that, you know. ;-) Yes, it should be clarified, but then how does one do that whithout sounding like an academic? Two things. First: YES, please make it easier to create suitable adapted maps. Second: My point wasn't to make it perfect for *me*, but to make the default maps more usable for its intended purpose. That purpose is not stated anywhere -- that I could find. So you made some assumptions about the intended purpose, and I tried to tell you that what you believe to be the intended purpose is not what I believe to be the intended purpose. Richard Fairhurst wrote in another mail that Showing off our coverage and completeness is another use of the default map. That's a very good purpose, but it doesn't conflict with making it more usable for normal people. And what a conflict it is. A standard Mapnik tile on zoom level 4 doesn't show anything we have in our database. Which makes a lot of sense for the user of such a map - he will usually want to zoom in to his area of interest. However for demonstrating our completeness/coverage, it's useless. Same for lots of other features, e.g. forest; if you want to show how much data we have, you usually bring them in at much coarser zooms, while for actually using the map for navigation or route planning it should be less cluttered. so the idea with the current maps could even be to make them more difficult to use in real life. I can understand that, but in that case it should perhaps be explained somewhere. I think we are too busy with enough other things to have time to actively pursue the creation of un-usable maps. There was a presentation of squirming, moving, pulsating maps at last year's SOTM which I sorely missed this year, maybe that could be said to be difficult to use... but I'd trade them for some engineered stuff any time ;-) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
One would think that getting all of the capitals tagged would be easy, however going and grabbing it from sites linked to google I'm assuming would almost certainly be a no no. Can we use information from wikipedia? For example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals If I can use that, then I can find all the capitals, and just tag them. How about geonames database - is that usable? A quick scan shows 142,000 locations with population data (accuracy unknown!). There are also feature codes to define which locations are major cities, etc. country_code | ansiname | latitude | longitude | population | feature_code --+-+--+--++-- GB | Abbotts Ann | 51.18300 | -1.51700 | 2112 | PPL GB | Aberaeron | 52.25000 | -4.25000 | 1537 | PPLA GB | Abercanaid | 51.723611100 | -3.36600 | 5061 | PPL GB | Abercarn| 51.64700 | -3.136944400 | 10118 | PPL GB | Aberchirder | 57.55000 | -2.61700 | 1159 | PPL GB | Aberdare| 51.71500 | -3.454166700 | 32756 | PPL GB | Aberdeen| 57.13300 | -2.1 | 183790 | PPLA GB | Aberdour| 56.05000 | -3.3 | 1742 | PPL GB | Aberfeldy | 56.61700 | -3.85000 | 1937 | PPL GB | Aberfoyle | 56.18300 | -4.38300 |577 | PPL -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usabili tyof the current maps
Hullo, I have a lot of sympathy with Inge's frustration; I think there are soem useful points made. I also sympathise with the people maintaining the stylesheets, having spent a fair bit of time customising the OSM stylesheet for map.oneplanetsutton.org We could get better at showing more place names, which touches on: * Mapnik's error collision * Importance of names (population, physical size, political/cultural/etc. importance) I raised the issue of pubs and other POIs on the default layer recently, I think there's room to refine the defaults and allow people to customise it a little more on the main OSM map, especially for exports. (My issue was that pubs aren't very nice for a professional map in a charity's report) We'll never resolve issues to do with road names and which roads you show in one layer, simply because of transport modes. As a cyclist I don't much care about primary road refs, but I do like zooming out and seeing all the roads in context. As a public transport user, I like seeing where the railway lines go, in fact it would be fun to find creative ways of visualising rail connections. The only solution is to create your own tileset and hope it's popular enough to get onto the OSM main page, as per the cycling layer. On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:48:56 +0100, Richard Fairhurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Inge Wallin wrote: * Distinctions between roads. In opposition to the case for names, there are too many roads on the large scale maps. Here is what the current map looks like around my home city: http://www.openstreetmap.com/?lat=58.33lon=15.408zoom=10layers=0B0FTF There is too little distinction between the motorway, the few primary highways and the secondary. I don't think the tertiary highways should even be on that map. Once they are all mapped they will provide a messy background making the important roads even more difficult to see. Some interesting points. We are, in a way, a victim of our own success: the balance on the maps looked absolutely perfect about six months ago. Now that we have many more roads, some zoom levels can look a bit different - and it may be time to remove highway=tertiary from z10 on Mapnik, for example. (Personally I think it'd be better if people just used highway=tertiary less but I may be in a minority on that one. ;) ) That said, usable clear maps is not the only metric we should work by. Showing off our coverage and completeness is another one - indeed, if you follow Frederik's argument (which I have a lot of sympathy with), you could argue that it's the main one. So it could sometimes be considered useful to have a slightly more cluttered map than would otherwise be the case, simply to show off how much stuff we have - and, in other areas, how far we have to go. I know very little about the Osmarender layer, but certainly, Steve Chilton revises the Mapnik layer constantly: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/log/applications/rendering/mapnik/osm.xml and I'm sure would be receptive to suggestions. Bear in mind, of course, that there are certain technical issues with all the renderers - label placement is the bugbear for any automated cartography. On a related issue, I think you underestimate the usefulness of the alternative maps with this: The topic is how the maps of OpenStreetMap are actually used by ordinary users. I know that the data of OSM is supposed to be used in new exciting ways like the cycle maps, but the majority of the users are just going to use what the programmers have made available to them. I don't use OSM for planning car trips. It's not quite good enough in the UK[1]: the usability isn't sufficiently better than Google Maps, and the completeness isn't there, yet. But I _do_ use OSM for cycling, because there, our map is streets ahead of anything else available. There is no better map of the (UK) National Cycle Network, full stop. Ok, ours isn't complete for all areas, but it is for many; the site is fast; the data's accurate; you can put it on a GPS. This isn't true of any other NCN map. And unlike the car trips, you can't use the NCN without a map: I could find my way from Charlbury to, I dunno, Llanwrtyd Wells by car without a map - road signs take care of that - but Charlbury to nearby Banbury on the NCN is really hard unless you have a map, because the signs are erratic. This isn't just my opinion. It's quite telling that if you look on the UK roadgeek site, www.sabre-roads.org.uk (dominated by motorists), they don't quite get OSM: they just whinge about lack of completeness. But the cyclists love it - I've seen very positive reviews on uk.rec.cycling, forums.ctc.org.uk, sustransrangers.org.uk. Right now, the majority of the users for whom OSM is _the_ _best_ _map_ _available_ are exactly those who are using the new and exciting layers. cheers Richard [1] This argument is quite different in the Netherlands, of course!
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
spaetz schrieb: There is always population=20, etc which can help you to find the biggest ones. And what prevents us from adding capital=yes to those cities? I don't think that the tagging is insufficient today. OK there might be a more subjective important city tag, and there are problems with suburbs and all that. But I don't see that point as a big problem. IMHO the cleanest way to determine capitals is to look which role a city has in the country/state/county-relation: http://openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/16162 regards, Sven ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usabili tyof the current maps
Tom Chance tom at acrewoods.net writes: Hullo, ... We'll never resolve issues to do with road names and which roads you show in one layer, simply because of transport modes. As a cyclist I don't much care about primary road refs, but I do like zooming out and seeing all the roads in context. As a public transport user, I like seeing where the railway lines go, in fact it would be fun to find creative ways of visualising rail connections. The only solution is to create your own tileset and hope it's popular enough to get onto the OSM main page, as per the cycling layer. Tilesets are for sure great for serving maps effectively for big audience. However, we have already seen that predefined layouts will never make everybody happy. Perhaps one day old-fashioned map servers which are rendering maps on demand will have more place again. A public WMS server delivering OSM data through together with a user contributed library of SLD files for styling would be a nice thing to see. Unfortunately it would most probably be overloaded and slow :( ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
Brian Quinion wrote: One would think that getting all of the capitals tagged would be easy, however going and grabbing it from sites linked to google I'm assuming would almost certainly be a no no. Can we use information from wikipedia? For example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals If I can use that, then I can find all the capitals, and just tag them. How about geonames database - is that usable? We cannot use data from geonames as the data is derived from Google Maps. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-May/014038.html http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Geonames Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Names, split streets and relations
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:23 AM, Karl Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Gervase Markham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Karl Newman wrote: I think the obvious thing is to quit splitting ways just because there's a bridge or the speed limit changed... IMHO, the only reason to split ways is if the name changes or if the major type changes. Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not possible to apply a tag to only part of a way. So if the speed limit or anything else changes, you can't have a continuous way if you want to tag correctly. Gerv I was thinking about this (not my proposal, but I like the idea): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relations/Proposed/Segmented_Tag Personally I classify that as more complicated, more surprise, and with the added danger of hiding information. It might work with very good editor support, but given how long we had segments, and how the interface for figuring out them was never really fixed, my hopes wouldn't be too high. I think fixing the renderers for this is much more preferable (rather than fixing the renderers to cope with these fake segments.. which doesn't sound too fun actually). Dave It's not just a rendering issue, although that's the topic of discussion. It makes it much easier for editing and later processing (it's easy to split a way, not as easy to recombine it). Currently, if you want to add or modify a tag on a long way, you have to click on each section to change the tag. In the degenerate case, you'd click on every single segment. I realize it would require good editor support, but it's disheartening to see the we've always done it that way; why should we change? crowd coming out already on a project this young. Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the us abilityof the current maps
On Monday 28 July 2008 16:24:01 Jukka Rahkonen wrote: Tilesets are for sure great for serving maps effectively for big audience. However, we have already seen that predefined layouts will never make everybody happy. Perhaps one day old-fashioned map servers which are rendering maps on demand will have more place again. A public WMS server delivering OSM data through together with a user contributed library of SLD files for styling would be a nice thing to see. Unfortunately it would most probably be overloaded and slow :( For what it's worth... In the next version of Marble[1], we plan on supporting what we call 'vector tiles'. This means giving all the points, vectors and polygons of a certain square as one dataset. This dataset will then be rendered on the fly by Marble. We hope to achieve at least two advantages: * The vector tiles will hopefully represent less data than the pixel tiles. * We will be able to create dramatically different renderings from the same data, thus removing the limitation of the pre-rendered tiles. Watch out for more about this in 6 months or so. -Inge [1] http://edu.kde.org/marble/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals If I can use that, then I can find all the capitals, and just tag them. How about geonames database - is that usable? We cannot use data from geonames as the data is derived from Google Maps. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-May/014038.html http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Geonames Sorry - let me me more precise. I was referring to the original us goverment database of the same name: http://geonames.nga.mil/ggmagaz/geonames4.asp http://geonames.nga.mil/ggmagaz/detaillinksearch.asp?G_NAME=%2732FA881891803774E0440003BA962ED3%27Diacritics=DC My understanding as that all US data of this type is in the public domain. -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Frederik Ramm wrote: | Hi, | | I really have a problem with this 'way' linking address nodes in the | Karlsruhe schema. We know that the relation has been created for that. | This 'way' is just here because some people do not know (or don't want | to know) how to use relations in the editors. | | Then use a relation instead. It's a free world ;-) No, it's definitely a way, because the houses are spread along the feature. If there was a node for every house, they should be related. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiN6mUACgkQz+aYVHdncI0EoACghK+VZC1Szdr4AHY0ZcHz1ivX QaAAnjrB7BjRoNpFigfvAacnc2+6WBIU =41Of -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Names, split streets and relations
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Karl Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:23 AM, Karl Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Gervase Markham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Karl Newman wrote: I think the obvious thing is to quit splitting ways just because there's a bridge or the speed limit changed... IMHO, the only reason to split ways is if the name changes or if the major type changes. Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not possible to apply a tag to only part of a way. So if the speed limit or anything else changes, you can't have a continuous way if you want to tag correctly. Gerv I was thinking about this (not my proposal, but I like the idea): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relations/Proposed/Segmented_Tag Personally I classify that as more complicated, more surprise, and with the added danger of hiding information. It might work with very good editor support, but given how long we had segments, and how the interface for figuring out them was never really fixed, my hopes wouldn't be too high. I think fixing the renderers for this is much more preferable (rather than fixing the renderers to cope with these fake segments.. which doesn't sound too fun actually). Dave It's not just a rendering issue, although that's the topic of discussion. It makes it much easier for editing and later processing (it's easy to split a way, not as easy to recombine it). Currently, if you want to add or modify a tag on a long way, you have to click on each section to change the tag. In the degenerate case, you'd click on every single segment. I realize it would require good editor support, but it's disheartening to see the we've always done it that way; why should we change? crowd coming out already on a project this young. meh. The editing issue is actually the one I was primarily talking about. Forget the rendering, it's swings and roundabouts, and it'll work either way. Now as I've said before, I think the whole editing tags on a split way problem is hugely inflated. It's usually very obvious what's happening, and in JOSM you get to select all the parts and edit the tag just once if you really want. There's a good usecase here for improving the editors -- some sort of also select same named objects please key (hey, it probably exists already...). The real problem (which we had with segments, and are now getting again with relations) is hidden information. Abstract relationships between objects that aren't visualised cause people to add duplicates and break existing stuff without even realising it. Some of this comes down to overlapping feature support, which TBH is pretty terrible atm, has been forever, and is genuinely difficult for a UI to cope with. The segmented way relation works fine logically, has some distinct advantages, but it needs really good editor support, otherwise it'll just generate a big mess. So not because we've always done it that way, but because we used to do it a different way and it sucked. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usabilityof the current maps
Hello, Inge. The maps shown at http://www.openstreetmap.org http://www.openstreetmap.org/ cannot be taken seriously. They have mistakes (religious symbols out of place), absurd rendering criteria (large pint glasses) and traces of mathematical mediocrity (watch the scale bar in any Scandinavian city : it's simply wrong). It's sad to see those things are not corrected, because it would take a little effort. But somehow, nobody cares. So those guys are right : if you want a sensible map right now, you need to setup your own renderer. Cheers, Lucas This is a mail that I have been wanting to send for some time, but wanted to think a little more about the subject before I actually did. The topic is how the maps of OpenStreetMap are actually used by ordinary users. I know that the data of OSM is supposed to be used in new exciting ways like the cycle maps, but the majority of the users are just going to use what the programmers have made available to them. So the question then becomes, is the current renderings good? For which purposes? Before we can discuss how good the maps are, we have to describe the intended use cases. I will start with my own here, and hope that you will fill in your own ways of using maps in general and OSM in particular. I recently bought a cheap navigator, but before that I often used a commercial Swedish map services to navigate to places when I went there for my work. I'd print out the map on paper on a low zoom level, showing where I would go on large roads. Then I'd print out maps using higher and higher zoom levels closer and closer to my goal so that I can see which intermediate and smaller roads that I'd have to take to reach my goal. So, would OSM work for that usecase? No, I don't think so. Here is why: * Names! There are far too few names on the map, especially on low zoom levels. It's difficult to get a feeling for where you are and orient yourself on the map if you cannot find names on the map. The commercial maps show lots and lots of names, and that is a good thing. We should make names appear on the maps earlier. * Distinctions between roads. In opposition to the case for names, there are too many roads on the large scale maps. Here is what the current map looks like around my home city: http://www.openstreetmap.com/?lat=58.33lon=15.408zoom=10layers=0B0FTF There is too little distinction between the motorway, the few primary highways and the secondary. I don't think the tertiary highways should even be on that map. Once they are all mapped they will provide a messy background making the important roads even more difficult to see. * Marking important roads. In the map above, you can also see that there is no marking of even the motorway (E4) or primary roads (in this case national roads 34 and 50). This is like names for cities, towns and villages: it makes it more difficult to follow where you are on the map. So, what are other use cases for OSM? Are the current OSM renderings good for those use cases? Do we need more different renderings for different use cases? I think that OSM has reached a state of maturity where we need to start discussing how the default renderings are used in real life. -Inge Juan Lucas Domínguez Rubio Prodevelop SL, Valencia (España) Tlf.: 96.351.06.12 -- Fax: 96.351.09.68 http://www.prodevelop.es http://www.prodevelop.es/ De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] en nombre de Inge Wallin Enviado el: lun 28/07/2008 16:59 Para: talk@openstreetmap.org Asunto: Re: [OSM-talk]Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usabilityof the current maps On Monday 28 July 2008 16:24:01 Jukka Rahkonen wrote: Tilesets are for sure great for serving maps effectively for big audience. However, we have already seen that predefined layouts will never make everybody happy. Perhaps one day old-fashioned map servers which are rendering maps on demand will have more place again. A public WMS server delivering OSM data through together with a user contributed library of SLD files for styling would be a nice thing to see. Unfortunately it would most probably be overloaded and slow :( For what it's worth... In the next version of Marble[1], we plan on supporting what we call 'vector tiles'. This means giving all the points, vectors and polygons of a certain square as one dataset. This dataset will then be rendered on the fly by Marble. We hope to achieve at least two advantages: * The vector tiles will hopefully represent less data than the pixel tiles. * We will be able to create dramatically different renderings from the same data, thus removing the limitation of the pre-rendered tiles. Watch out for more about this in 6 months or so. -Inge [1] http://edu.kde.org/marble/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
Jochen Topf wrote: I find 207 000 places in Europe and only 57 000 population tags. I've just done my bit by adding a population tag to Guildford. Only 149,999 places to go -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usabilityof the current maps
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Inge. The maps shown at http://www.openstreetmap.org cannot be taken seriously. They have mistakes (religious symbols out of place), absurd rendering criteria (large pint glasses) and traces of mathematical mediocrity (watch the scale bar in any Scandinavian city : it's simply wrong). It's sad to see those things are not corrected, because it would take a little effort. But somehow, nobody cares. Nice. (that's a deeply ironic nice BTW). Patches welcome I'm sure, but remember that other people may have opinions too. Without patches I'm going to be assuming you don't actually care, as apparently it'll take only a little effort, so why wouldn't you? Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap - how to get vector data
Hello, While we're on the subject of OSM usability: I have a different issue/question/problem regarding the access to the OSM data. While I find OSM web maps to be quite usable and all, I think the biggest strength of OSM (apart from its community, of course :) ) is having an access to the raw (vector) map data and not just image tiles like Google et al. For a long time I was dreaming about creating a desktop/mobile application for cyclists and hikers which would utilize the vector data for suggesting cycling/hiking routes, calculating the time needed and so on. The map area would not necessarily be a large one. The problem is fetching the data - the only viable option I see is using OSMXAPI, but its server is overwhelmed and will limit the download size in the future (from what I read on this list). Using planet dumps seems to me a bit too unfriendly from the end-user perspective - they would have to download quite a large quantity of data. I have the similar problem with providing map data to users of Kosmos. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Best regards, Igor ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
If things are clear, and if there is a consensus about using this Karlsruhe schema, let's have a vote on it. This will make things easier: we would then have a clean situation. This would enable people to enter the data. We may also adapt the tools then, e.g. create a function in JOSM that explodes a way by creating parallel ways (for each continuous segment) with pre-filled tags (street names, and so on) so that entering data is easy enough. Charlie Echo - Mail Original - De: Robert (Jamie) Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED] À: Talk Openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org Envoyé: Lundi 28 Juillet 2008 17:48:54 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne Objet: Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Frederik Ramm wrote: | Hi, | | I really have a problem with this 'way' linking address nodes in the | Karlsruhe schema. We know that the relation has been created for that. | This 'way' is just here because some people do not know (or don't want | to know) how to use relations in the editors. | | Then use a relation instead. It's a free world ;-) No, it's definitely a way, because the houses are spread along the feature. If there was a node for every house, they should be related. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiN6mUACgkQz+aYVHdncI0EoACghK+VZC1Szdr4AHY0ZcHz1ivX QaAAnjrB7BjRoNpFigfvAacnc2+6WBIU =41Of -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap - how to get vector data
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Igor Brejc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is fetching the data - the only viable option I see is using OSMXAPI, but its server is overwhelmed and will limit the download size in the future (from what I read on this list). Using planet dumps seems to me a bit too unfriendly from the end-user perspective - they would have to download quite a large quantity of data. still you can download data from some planet's country extract (italy is 22mb at the moment). find them on Geofabrik, cloudmade, etc... -S ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Milestone
Just noticed that this weekend it is exactly a year since I submitted my first mapnik style patch. In the following 12 months I have submitted a total of 45 patches with multiple additions/changes (nearly 1 per week). In that time the style file (XML) has moved from 1641 lines to 5220 lines. However, the serious point is that there is a lot to be done (viz recent mailings). I have a list of challenges that include, in no particular order: rendering variable river widths sorting out repeating road names overlapping road artefacts (eg more major road coming to a roundabout on lesser road) locks and lock gates the whole POI inclusion issue dots for amenties not yet symbolised but named rendering roads in proportion to lane numbers Originally we relied on Artem for all mapnik stuff, and subsequently several other people have done changes to mapnik styles, but only intermittently. Recently it sems to be only me, wheras I get the impression that more folk are hacking on osmarender. So, if anyone feels like getting their hands dirty and doing some collaborative work on mapnik style improvements then just drop me a line. Cheers STEVE ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Charlie Echo [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: If things are clear, and if there is a consensus about using this Karlsruhe schema, let's have a vote on it. This will make things easier: we would then have a clean situation. This would enable people to enter the data. We may also adapt the tools then, e.g. create a function in JOSM that explodes a way by creating parallel ways (for each continuous segment) with pre-filled tags (street names, and so on) so that entering data is easy enough. Charlie Echo The Karlsruhe schema is fine for just showing numbers on a map, but I don't like it because it's not topological and therefore virtually impossible to use for other purposes. This is because the associated way is not directly encoded in the schema--it has to be derived by another means. That's just a whole lot more work for data consumers that are only trying to locate a street address a relative distance along a way (e.g., all current GPS navigation systems). Consider this use case: Given a street, I'd have to look through NN million nodes to find the closest ones (say within some radius, which may actually miss some!), and then for each of those nodes, check against MM million ways to make sure they aren't actually closer to another street. That's madness! A simple relation could tell you node X in way Y has the address number Z. (Obviously need a little more detail such as odd/even schemes to fully support interpolation). Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
With the current scheme how would one numbering blocks of flats? there is no explicit allowance in the current scheme as far as i can see. On 7/28/08, Karl Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Charlie Echo [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: If things are clear, and if there is a consensus about using this Karlsruhe schema, let's have a vote on it. This will make things easier: we would then have a clean situation. This would enable people to enter the data. We may also adapt the tools then, e.g. create a function in JOSM that explodes a way by creating parallel ways (for each continuous segment) with pre-filled tags (street names, and so on) so that entering data is easy enough. Charlie Echo The Karlsruhe schema is fine for just showing numbers on a map, but I don't like it because it's not topological and therefore virtually impossible to use for other purposes. This is because the associated way is not directly encoded in the schema--it has to be derived by another means. That's just a whole lot more work for data consumers that are only trying to locate a street address a relative distance along a way (e.g., all current GPS navigation systems). Consider this use case: Given a street, I'd have to look through NN million nodes to find the closest ones (say within some radius, which may actually miss some!), and then for each of those nodes, check against MM million ways to make sure they aren't actually closer to another street. That's madness! A simple relation could tell you node X in way Y has the address number Z. (Obviously need a little more detail such as odd/even schemes to fully support interpolation). Karl -- Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenMoonMap
This beacon system will use radio frequency, microwave, ultrasonic or visible light sources to transmit the relative positioning between any object and known active surface beacon reference points. Good luck using ultrasonic on the moon. On 28 Jul 2008, at 04:33, Nick Black wrote: Spotted this this-morning. http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/2008/07/28/lasois Get ready for the scramble for domain registration... -- Nick Black http://www.blacksworld.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk Best Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
Steve, you and everyone else whose worked hard on the cartography aspects of the Mapnik layer deserve a big pat on the back. But your note clearly demonstrates that we really should not have the Mapnik stylesheet maintained and managed by one or two people. The other thread on the list about the map view further reinforces this. I'm really wondering if it wouldn't be a good time to get a separate project kicked off that's separate from OSM core. One that is specifically aimed at developing methods of layering and filtering the OSM data to produce customisable maps. It's clear there are loads of people that want to put their oar in on it and maybe taking it out of a core OSM function might free up ideas and development. Obviously new and cool ideas can get incorporated back at OSM render central but at least having cartography development outside of central control would stir up the pot and take some of the heat out of the issue within OSM itself. I assume the big problem doing this is getting suitable bandwidth for a tile server? That's something we could probably put the feelers out on if there was enough interested individuals to kick it all off. Would a dev box set up to do this make a difference for instance? Andy A has done all this with a few others for the cycle map, why not enable a bigger group to do the same generally with support from OSM to make it happen. Views? Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Burgess Sent: 28 July 2008 11:12 PM To: Steve Chilton Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 18:47 +0100, Steve Chilton wrote: Just noticed that this weekend it is exactly a year since I submitted my first mapnik style patch. In the following 12 months I have submitted a total of 45 patches with multiple additions/changes (nearly 1 per week). In that time the style file (XML) has moved from 1641 lines to 5220 lines. I do appreciate the effort you put into the styles. I personally think the maps look really amazing. In many places they are better than commercially available maps. From Wednesday this week we should also start seeing the result of a couple of other fixes implemented this week:- I just fixed a bug in the core Mapnik code which was causing of some of the mountain peaks to be missing text labels. If you refresh your browser at[1] you should see most/all of the peaks now appear with names. The bug caused many POI names not containing a space to be absent. The removal of the route names which started appearing on the map a couple of weeks ago[2][3]. This error was caused when extra support was added for route relations needed by the cycle map etc. Improved multipolygon support. For several months there have been complaints that Mapnik has not been following the new tagging rules for multipolygon relations[4]. I've added code to handle the obvious tag combinations in osm2pgsql and this seems to work in the examples I've tested[5][6]. Jon [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.5761lon=- 3.234zoom=13layers=B00FTF [2] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-July/027991.html [3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.6978lon=-79.31117zoom=17 [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relation:multipolygon [5] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.5836lon=- 3.1445zoom=13layers=B00FTF [6] http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~bobkare/utilslippy/?zoom=13lat=59.88743lon= 10.87121layers=0FB0 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1578 - Release Date: 28/07/2008 5:13 PM ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why OpenStreetMap is not Wikipedia
Frederik Ramm wrote: Sent: 28 July 2008 11:22 PM To: Talk Openstreetmap Subject: [OSM-talk] Why OpenStreetMap is not Wikipedia Hi, the similarities between OSM and Wikipedia are many, and easily spotted. In fact, we owe a lot of our success to Wikipedia as a trail blazer - if I tell someone we're like a Wikipedia for maps, that saves me about 5 minutes explaining. However, there are also many conceptual differences between our respective projects, and I would like to list a few of these that I've been thinking about lately. I believe that some people are very quick to simply transfer lessons learned from Wikipedia onto OSM, sometimes without properly taking into account that while there are similarities, there are also lots of differences. 1. One World In OSM, everything we have is in one database. It would be technically possible to set up osm.de, osm.org, osm.fr etc. with national data sets and just let everybody go along. It would even be possible to allow each of these databases to contain a map of Karlsruhe, each styled differently, with the French map of Karlsruhe highlighting those bits of the city that seem important to the French and the American map focusing on other stuff. Occasionally, users of OSM America would copy some bits about Karlsruhe from OSM France and vice versa. All tagging would conveniently be done in the native language of the community. If OSM Estonia doesn't feature Reigate, then obviously Reigate is not culturally important to Estonians, and who cares. This is how Wikipedia would do it. To a newcomer this looks very puzzling at first - why should there be 50 independently authored articles explaining how a laser works when there is one simple truth that just has to be translated? But Wikipedia has considerable success with this scheme, and probably avoids a million pitfalls. OSM has only one database that is supposed to contain the truth(tm). If the Estonians and the Londoners cannot agree on how Reigate should be mapped, we have a problem; Wikipedia wouldn't. 2. Commercially Valuable Product OSM is creating something of considerable commercial value. The estimated market volume of geodata in Europe is way over one billion Euros per year (I found varying figures, some even say it's 1.5 billion for Germany alone, others are more conservative). - I'm sure there was a market for encyclopedias before Wikipedia arrived but it cannot have been this big, ever. Or can it? Let me hear figures if you have some. This might make a difference in attracting funding. I could imagine, for example, that OSM could be much more successful in talking to individual sponsors, whereas Wikipedia usually turns to the community to raise money. 3. Not an End Product Working with Wikipedia, what you see is what is there: You always have the current version of some article in front of your eyes, and you will usually access this product with your web browser and, ultimately, your eyes. Wikipedia does not collect raw data, it collects/creates an end product. In contrast, OSM does collect data, and you only ever see a highly processed version of it. I'm sure there are *some* people who use Wikipedia articles as some sort of text body over which to run statistical analyses and so on, but certainly not to the degree this is done over here at OSM. This means, among other things, that OSM will always be one more step away from the unsuspecting user - OSM is about what is behind the map you see. Makes some things more complicated. Also, this means that software is likely to play a greater role in OSM than it does in Wikipedia. Just a few ideas. - Not meant to be negative about Wikipedia in any way, it's a great project that I use a lot. Just pointing out where we are different. I'm sure you will have additional ideas about differences? You have summed up very well my own feelings. I've no idea if OSM really has learnt from any other project or if its steered its own course, Steve kicked off with the cookbook, but so many of the ingredients for the recipe have been change along the way that I'm not sure if most of us really do may a comparison with other projects. It is very right I feel that we reinforce not so much our differences to other projects but rather the specific strengths that OSM has. They are basically in what you have written and I'd list them (in terms of comparing with the alternatives out there) as: * Unique * Valuable * Reliable Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: Steve, you and everyone else whose worked hard on the cartography aspects of the Mapnik layer deserve a big pat on the back. But your note clearly demonstrates that we really should not have the Mapnik stylesheet maintained and managed by one or two people. Well, there was a discussion on IRC today among some of the [EMAIL PROTECTED] chaps along the lines of what we really need is a benevolent dictator, like the Mapnik stylesheet has. I've got a lot of sympathy with that - most of the reason the Mapnik layer looks so cool is because it's driven by one person with a clear vision and genuine cartographic skill, rather than ooh, I want to see pound shops on the map, let me add my nice MS Paint icon. (For the avoidance of doubt I'm not accusing [EMAIL PROTECTED] of this, but I've seen enough committee-designed maps that do look like an utter bollocks.) I'm really wondering if it wouldn't be a good time to get a separate project kicked off that's separate from OSM core. One that is specifically aimed at developing methods of layering and filtering the OSM data to produce customisable maps. It's clear there are loads of people that want to put their oar in on it and maybe taking it out of a core OSM function might free up ideas and development. Obviously new and cool ideas can get incorporated back at OSM render central but at least having cartography development outside of central control would stir up the pot and take some of the heat out of the issue within OSM itself. I assume the big problem doing this is getting suitable bandwidth for a tile server? Amazon EC2/S3. With a readymade image containing an OSM rendering toolchain - Mapnik, osm2pgsql and TileCache - plus some instructions on the wiki, we'd have a roll your own cartography kit. A WYSIWYG stylesheet editor would be the icing on the cake but not necessary at the start. I am way out of my depth here technically, but wouldn't that be so, so cool? cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why OpenStreetMap is not Wikipedia
On Jul 29, 2008, at 0:21 , Frederik Ramm wrote: I believe that some people are very quick to simply transfer lessons learned from Wikipedia onto OSM, sometimes without properly taking into account that while there are similarities, there are also lots of differences. There's another difference, which is quite important (to me at least). Wikipedia collects knowledge in general and a great deal of this knowledge (if not most of it) is partly subjective; in the end, the good faith of its contributors and the existence of a mechanism to verify it is important. Furthermore, there is stuff where the objective truth doesn't exist at all - all of this bring up the point of how much one trust in Wikipedia, if you prefer such an approach or the traditional one with an editor, a board of controllers, etc... On the contrary, OSM is documenting mostly factual data based on empirical observation (the GPS tracks). Yes, there are the boundary controversies etc, but fortunately they involve only a part of the world. Summing up, there are no strong problems of trust in OSM, while there are in Wikipedia, IMHO. -- Fabrizio Giudici, Ph.D. - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog [EMAIL PROTECTED] - mobile: +39 348.150.6941 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk-nl] planet-nl-latest updates op tile.openstreetmap.nl
^ vind niet meer plaats volgens mij. De laatste update is van 23 juli. Kan iemand er even naar kijken? ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] planet-nl-latest updates op tile.openstreetmap.nl
Lambertus wrote: ^ vind niet meer plaats volgens mij. De laatste update is van 23 juli. Kan iemand er even naar kijken? Volgens mij is er ook een nieuwe mapnik beschikbaar, of anders is de config van de mapnik layer op openstreetmap.org aangepast. In ieder geval op openstreetmap.org wordt een circular highway=service;area=yes niet meer gerenderd als circular way, maar helemaal niet meer. Vergelijk: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.20974lon=3.810693zoom=18layers=B00FTF http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/?zoom=18lat=51.20965lon=3.8106layers=B00F -- Lennard ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] planet-nl-latest updates op tile.openstreetmap.nl
Ja, en er zijn meer verschillen, kijk maar naar tracks en gemeentegrenzen. - Original Message From: OpenStreetMap NL discussion list talk-nl@openstreetmap.org To: OpenStreetMap NL discussion list talk-nl@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-nl] planet-nl-latest updates op tile.openstreetmap.nl Date: 28/07/08 12:03 Lambertus wrote: gt; ^ vind niet meer plaats volgens mij. De laatste update is van 23 juli. gt; Kan iemand er even naar kijken? Volgens mij is er ook een nieuwe mapnik beschikbaar, of anders is de config van de mapnik layer op openstreetmap.org aangepast. In ieder geval op openstreetmap.org wordt een circular highway=service;area=yes niet meer gerenderd als circular way, maar helemaal niet meer. Vergelijk: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.20974amp;lon=3.810693amp;zoom=18amp;layers=B00FTF http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/?zoom=18amp;lat=51.20965amp;lon=3.8106amp;layers=B00F -- Lennard ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-nl Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.10 ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [Talk-de] Fernsehbericht Open Street Map Heute Abend
Hat es irgendwer aufgezeichnet und würde es nach Erlaubnis hier veröffentlichen? Ich hab's gestern Abend aufgenommen. War allerdings eher ein mäßiger Bericht. Mal schaun pb ich trotz Umzug aufbereiten und (PM) verschicken kann. Christian ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Neues Symbol / Piktogramm fuer Spielplaetze
Hallo liebe OSM-Gemeinde, ich habe ein Piktogramm / Symbol fuer Spielplaetze erstellt. In der Hoffnung, dass diese zukuenftig vielleicht in Osmarender gerendert werden koennten. Hier die svg: http://einspeiser.de/diverse/osm/playground.svg Und hier das Archiv mit diversen Bitmaps: http://einspeiser.de/diverse/osm/playground.zip Zur Zeit habe ich noch keinen schwarzen Trauerrand um das Piktogramm gesetzt. Ist das allgemein erwuenscht? Die Bildchen sind selbst gemalt und in der Lizenz: PublicDomain. Beste Gruesse, Michael Donning ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Wie lassen sich Waypoints aus Odgps mit JOSM verarbeiten?
Hi, 2008/7/27 Thomas Berendes [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Leider ist es aber so, dass die Waypoints von Odgps, wie auch in dem Wiki geschrieben wird, nicht mit OSM kompatibel sind. In JOSM werden die Waypoints nicht angezeigt. Im Wiki wird empfohlen in der gpx-Datei rtept durch wpt zu ersetzen. Erledige ich das aber, verweigert JOSM das Öffnen der gpx-Datei mit folgendem unerwarteten Fehler: [...] Ich habe auch schon ein wenig gegoogelt und daraufhin versucht die gpx-Datei nach Ersetzen von rtept durch wpt mit GPSBabel in eine neue gpx-Datei zu konvertieren. Die mit GPSBabel erzeugte neue gpx-Datei wird aber auch von JOSM mit der Fehlermeldung quittiert. Hat jemand eine Idee, wie ich meine durch Odgps erzeugten gpx-Dateien mitsamt Waypoints in JOSM weiter verarbeiten kann? Bis vor wenigen Tagen habe ich ausschließlich odgps benutzt. Dazu habe ich die gpx-Dateien wie folgt bearbeitet: 1) Die Zeilen rte xmlns= namegey.gpx/name gelöscht. 2) /rte gelöscht. 3) global rtept durch wpt ersetzt. Hat immer einwandfrei geklappt. Sollte auch sehr einfach zu skripten sein. Tschüss, Tim. -- http://wikipedistik.de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Flyer: Status und Neudesign
Hallo, unser A7-Flyer ist ein sehr grosser Erfolg. Insgesamt sind schaetzungsweise schon so 15.000 Stueck davon verteilt worden (naja, 15.000 habe ich verschickt, nicht alle davon werden den Weg in die Hand eines Kunden gefunden haben), und jede Woche verschicke ich Paeckchen und Briefe mit 10, 50, 100 oder 200 Stueck durch die Republik (und in angrenzende Alpenrepubliken sowie Eidgenossenschaften ;-). Der Flyer kommt bei den meisten gut an, und ich koennte mir vorstellen, dass er auch eines von vielen Mosaiksteinchen ist, die dafuer sorgen, dass Deutschland dasjenige OSM-Land mit der groessten Community ist. (Naja, vielleicht ueberschaetze ich die Sache ein klein wenig... aber das sei mir gegoennt.) Im Moment habe ich noch genug Vorraete fuer die naechsten Monate, aber wenn diese Auflage mal alle ist, waere es vielleicht Zeit fuer ein bisschen frischen Wind. Wenn also unter Euch irgendjemand ein Haendchen fuer Drucksachen-Design hat, dann macht doch mal einen Entwurf fuer einen neuen Flyer! Der jetztige ist ja von mir gemacht, um einfach mal irgendwas zu haben, und einem professionellen Designer stehen bestimmt bei einigen Sachen die Haare zu Berge. Ich denke, wir sollten auf jeden Fall bei A7 oder maximal A6 bleiben, oder von mir aus auch ein nicht-DIN-Format aehnlicher Groesse. Der Inhalt sollte grob der gleiche sein, also so, dass man den Flyer jemandem auf der Strasse geben kann, der fragt was machen Sie denn da mit dem GPS. Also, wenn jemand Lust hat, was zu basteln - es ist wie gesagt nicht eilbeduerftig, die Vorraete halten noch ne Weile, aber irgendwann werden sie alle sein, und ich bin ziemlich sicher, dass wir dann weitermachen wollen. Bye Frederik ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
Hi, Am 27. Juli 2008 00:44 schrieb Dirk Stöcker [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Und vielleicht ist genau das das Problem. OSM hatte viel Medienecho in letzter Zeit. Irgendwann kommt der Punkt, wo man auch mal den Schritt wagen muss die Freizeitarbeit zugunsten von professionellen Administratoren aufzugeben. Ich mache sowas beruflich und privat und bin mir sicher, dass ein normal guter Admin einfach keinerlei Möglichkeiten hat so ein Projekt in der Freizeit zu betreiben. Schwierig - kommt auf die Entwicklungsstufe an. Momentan sollte es IMHO noch möglich sein, YMMV. Brion Vibber wurde im Sommer 2005 von der WMF eingestellt - bis dahin gab es keine bezahlte Admin-Kraft bei der Wikipedia, IIRC. (Soviele Abkürzungen in einem Absatz...) Mit ganz locker bleiben verschwinden Probleme keinesfalls. Ich habe in den letzten Tagen versucht irgendein aktuelles Statement zur OSM Situation zu finden. Nichts. Gar nichts. Es ist ja nicht so, dass nichts im Hintergrund passieren würde - wie üblich wird in solchen Situationen allerdings die vorhandene Manpower darauf verwendet, das Problem in den Griff zu bekommen und dabei fällt (zumindest kenne ich es so aus vergleichbaren Projekten) bei begrenzten Ressourcen der Bereich Informationspolitik als erstes hinten runter. Vor ein paar Jahren, in der Anfangszeit von Wikipedia war die Situation ähnlich. Auch dort gab es Lastprobleme und Verzögerungen. Solche extremen Ausmaße wie bei OSM gab es aber nicht. Das ist falsch. Die Probleme waren deutlich größer. Es waren nicht nur einzelne Dienste tage-, wochen- und monatelang offline (die im Oktober 2004 aus Performance-Gründen eingestellten Zugriffsstatistiken sind bis heute nicht wieder online gegangen), sondern die Wikipedia war tagelang überhaupt nicht erreichbar. Schaut Euch den Hardwarebedarf bei Wikipedia an und überlegt nochmal, ob Ziel und Umsetzung von OSM momentan zu vereinen sind. Wikipedia und OSM haben erschreckend viel gemeinsam. Sobald ich Zeit habe, schreibe ich mal ein ausführlicheres Blogposting über das Thema. Tschüss, Tim. -- http://wikipedistik.de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
Am 27.07.2008, 23:45 Uhr, schrieb André Reichelt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Kannst Du mal konkret auflisten, welche Dienste Deiner Ansicht nach seit mindestens einem Monat saumaessig laufen? Irgendwie scheint das naemlich an mir vorbeigegangen zu sein. Ich möchte mal zuvorkommen: * Mapnik/Osmarender: Tileauslieferung dauert häufig mehrere Minuten, bis alle Kacheln auf dem Schirm geladen sind. * JOSM: Andauernd irgendwelche seltsamen Bugs in der Latest. Was für eine Latest Version auch nicht verwunderlich ist. Die Bezeichnung latest sagt ja schon aus, dass hier die letzten Änderungen bzw. der letzte Source-Code eingeflossen ist. Latest ist eine SOftware, die noch nicht mal richtig im Alpha-Stadium ist. Wenn du eine Version haben möchtest die sauber läuft, dann musst du eine Stable verwenden. Leider gibt es aktuell für JOSM keine Stable-Versionen. Das finde ich persönlich auch nicht so schlimm, da die Latest-Versionen eigentlich sehr sauber funktionieren. Und sollte es doch mal Probleme geben, kann man diese ganz einfach dadurch beheben, dass man auf eine ältere Version von JOSM downgradet. Aber, es hindert dich niemand daran eine Stable-Version zu erstellen. Dann allerdings auch mit allen Erfordernissen und zeitlichen Problemen die eine solche Erstellungen mit sich bringt. lg Heiko ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Flyer: Status und Neudesign
Am Montag, 28. Juli 2008 10:56 schrieb Frederik Ramm: Also, wenn jemand Lust hat, was zu basteln - es ist wie gesagt nicht eilbeduerftig, die Vorraete halten noch ne Weile, aber irgendwann werden sie alle sein, und ich bin ziemlich sicher, dass wir dann weitermachen wollen. Ich wünsche mir einen freien Platz: Dieser Flyer wurde Ihnen überreicht von: Wo man dann seien E-Mailaddresse /Telefonummer etc. draufschreiben kann, denn das fehlt mir manchmal: Ich könnte dann anbieten: Und wenn sie nicht weiterwissen können sie mir persönlich eine Mail schreiben Gruß Sven ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Heiko Schack wrote: Ich möchte mal zuvorkommen: * Mapnik/Osmarender: Tileauslieferung dauert häufig mehrere Minuten, bis alle Kacheln auf dem Schirm geladen sind. * JOSM: Andauernd irgendwelche seltsamen Bugs in der Latest. Was für eine Latest Version auch nicht verwunderlich ist. Die Bezeichnung latest sagt ja schon aus, dass hier die letzten Änderungen bzw. der letzte Source-Code eingeflossen ist. Latest ist eine SOftware, die noch nicht mal richtig im Alpha-Stadium ist. Wenn du eine Version haben möchtest die sauber läuft, dann musst du eine Stable verwenden. Ich finde JOSM-Latest eigentlich sehr gut nutzbar. Sicher machen wir manchmal kurz was kaputt, aber in der Regel wird ein entsprechender Fehler innerhalb eines Tages behoben. Leider gibt es aktuell für JOSM keine Stable-Versionen. Das finde ich persönlich auch nicht so schlimm, da die Latest-Versionen eigentlich sehr sauber funktionieren. Und sollte es doch mal Probleme geben, kann man diese ganz einfach dadurch beheben, dass man auf eine ältere Version von JOSM downgradet. Hmm, vielleicht sollte man einfach mal eine der aktuellen Latest-Version zu einer neuen Release umdeklarieren. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Frederik Ramm wrote: An wessen Adresse soll man also die Kritik daran richten, dass es solche Mirror-Server nicht gibt? Die unfaehigen Admins sollten halt einfach sagen, was sie brauchen? - Die Foundation sollte jemanden einstellen, der das macht? - Meiner bescheidenen Ansicht nach gibt es solche Server halt einfach nicht, weil es nicht *so* wichtig ist. Diejenigen im Projekt, die sowas machen *koennten*, tun es im Moment nicht, weil ihnen andere Sachen wichtiger erscheinen. Ist doch auch ihr gutes Recht. Ich kann doch nicht zu Dir sagen verschwende doch keine Zeit mit Uebersetzungen von JOSM, wenn Du stattdessen einen API-Mirror bauen koenntest. Wenn die Performance der API wirklich *so* schlecht waere, dann wuerdest Du vermutlich von selber auf die Idee kommen. Nein. Hier kommt einfach ins Spiel, dass ich sehr wenig Erfahrung mit dem Aufbau und Betrieb von Datenbanken habe und die notwendige Einarbeitungszeit mein Zeitbudget bei weitem überschreitet. Je geringer die Anfangshürden wären, desto größer wäre die Wahrscheinlichkeit aktiver Teilnahme in dem Bereich. Ich kann nicht in allen Bereichen Profi sein und manchmal muß man auf Vorarbeit anderer aufsetzen. Das notwendige Minimum ist also eine minimale Schritt-für-Schritt Anleitung, wie sowas überhaupt geht. Ich habe momentan einen Root-Server, der 99% nichts zu tun hat und bei dem knapp 1.7TB Transferlimit übrig sind. Wenn es ein lauffähiges Mirrorkonzept gibt könnte ich vielleicht sogar Sponsoren für den Mirrorbetrieb auftreiben. Nur ich habe einfach die Zeit nicht, um sowas selbst aufzubauen. Ciao Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Neues Symbol / Piktogramm fuer Spielplaetze
Michael Donning schrieb: Hallo liebe OSM-Gemeinde, ich habe ein Piktogramm / Symbol fuer Spielplaetze erstellt. In der Hoffnung, dass diese zukuenftig vielleicht in Osmarender gerendert werden koennten. Hier die svg: http://einspeiser.de/diverse/osm/playground.svg die Idee find ich sehr gut. wenn man es bisschen skalliert, kann man aber nur noch schwehr erkennen, was es darstellen soll... ich würde desshalb den menschen etwas verkleinern und dafür die schaukel etwas vergrößern (dicker machen)... Zur Zeit habe ich noch keinen schwarzen Trauerrand um das Piktogramm gesetzt. Ist das allgemein erwuenscht? ich hab den 'Trauerrand' immer gemalt, um zu symbolisieren, ob es sich um einen Punkt, oder eine Fläche handelt (im letzteren Fall ohne Rand) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Cobra Renderer (war: Osmarender-Der ivat für Windows)
Hi, ich war so frei, auf der Seite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/User:Ferdi#OpenStreetMap_Renderer:_Cobra eine Sektion Bugs einzufügen. Dort ist es vielleicht einfacher und sinnvoller die Problem zu sammeln. Denn nicht jeder liest die Talkliste komplet durch, wenn er auf ein Problem stößt. Es wäre von Vorteil, wenn die Leute mit Problemen dabei schreiben, wann es wie auftritt und unter welchem Betriebssystem. Mit gefällt das Tool bis jetzt sehr gut, geht vor allem sehr schnell. Vielleicht braucht man auf eine Abteilung Wünsche. ;-) Schöne Grüße Henry E Unbegrenzter Speicher, Top-Spamschutz, 120 SMS und eigene E-MailDomain inkl. http://office.freenet.de/dienste/emailoffice/produktuebersicht/power/mail/index.html ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:36:09AM +0200, Dirk Stöcker wrote: Hmm, vielleicht sollte man einfach mal eine der aktuellen Latest-Version zu einer neuen Release umdeklarieren. Dann muesste sich aber auch jemand finden, der dafuer sorgt, dass diese Stable version bei sehr schweren Fehlern gefixt wird. Das waere eine prima Sache, ist aber auch deutlich mehr Arbeit als der aktuelle Entwicklungsweg. Gerade die Aufnahme in diverse Linux-Distributionen wuerde sich durch echte releases spuerbar vereinfachen. -- sven === jabber/xmpp: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OpenGeoDB-Import
In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 2008-07-25 00:15, Josias wrote: an unserer FH gab es zu dem Thema eine MasterArbeit: Thema: wie fine ich die beste Anzeige für die Städtenamen mittels Künstliche Inteligenz: kurz zusammenfassung von Prof. Dr. Sebastian Iwanowski : http://www.fh-wedel.de/fileadmin/mitarbeiter/iw/Lehrveranstaltungen/2007WS/KI/KI7.1.pdf Komplette MasterArbeit: Thomas Walther: Dynamische Fahrzeugnavigation auf Basis von Ameisenkolonien, WS 2005/2006 http://www.fh-wedel.de/fileadmin/mitarbeiter/iw/Abschlussarbeiten/MasterarbeitWalther.pdf Hallo Josias, die pdfs habe ich grob ueberflogen - zur besten Anzeige habe ich aber nichts konkretes gefunden. Meintest du solche Gewichtungsansaetze, dass ein als unwichtiger eingestufter Ortsname blockiert wird durch einen wichtigeren? Das sind fuer mich Allgemeinplaetze, die so noch nicht konkret hilfreich sind. Ausserdem ist das eher ein allgemeines Rendering-Problem, als eines speziell mit den opengeodb-Daten. Dort geht es eher darum, den Stammbestandteil eines Ortsnames herauszufinden (ohne Zusaetze wie bei ..., Bad, Lutherstadt, Markt, I/II usw. Das ganze geht aber nur begrenzt automatisierbar. Beispiel: fuer XYZbach gaebe es die Eintraege sowohl als Gemeinde, als auch als Ortschaft, als auch als Ortsteil dieser Ortschaft, als auch als Bahnhof XYZbach. Welchen Algorithmus gibt es, der den richtigen opengeodb-Eintrag herausfinden wuerde? Erwartet hatte ich uebrigens eher eine Art Soundex-Verfahren, um ueberhaupt den passenden Ortseintrag zu finden, wenn die Schreibweise falsch war. Schoenen Gruss Martin Trautmann -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Sven Lankes wrote: Hmm, vielleicht sollte man einfach mal eine der aktuellen Latest-Version zu einer neuen Release umdeklarieren. Dann muesste sich aber auch jemand finden, der dafuer sorgt, dass diese Stable version bei sehr schweren Fehlern gefixt wird. Das waere eine prima Sache, ist aber auch deutlich mehr Arbeit als der aktuelle Entwicklungsweg. Gerade die Aufnahme in diverse Linux-Distributionen wuerde sich durch echte releases spuerbar vereinfachen. Hmm, bei openSUSE nehmen wir einfach josm-latest. Updates so aller 1-3 Wochen, je nach Änderungslage bei JOSM. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
Hallo, Heiko Schack wrote: Aber, es hindert dich niemand daran eine Stable-Version zu erstellen. Dann allerdings auch mit allen Erfordernissen und zeitlichen Problemen die eine solche Erstellungen mit sich bringt. Das sage ich auch schon seit ich den Job mache: Wenn irgendjemand bereit ist, sich die Muehe zu machen, eine Stable zu pflegen - auf welche Weise auch immer - kriegt er dafuer jederzeit die Unterstuetzung, die er braucht. Bye Frederik ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Antw: Flyer: Status und Neudesign
TopSpotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was spricht gegen das gebräuchliche Flyerformat in dreifach-Faltung, wie es in allen Branchen und Projekten üblig ist? Dass die Teile im wesentlichen dafür gemacht sind um sie in die Tasche zu stecken um beim Mappen was zum verteilen zu haben wenn man angesprochen wird. Dass die Größe für Messestände eher ungeeignet ist hab ich mir beim Linuxtag auch gedacht. Gruss Sven -- Whenever there is a conflict between human rights and property rights, human rights must prevail. (Abraham Lincoln) /me is [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
Hi! André Reichelt schrieb: Tya, Menschen sind komische Wesen. Gute Sachen vergessen sie ganz schnell, aber sobald etwas böses berichtet wird: OSM? Da war doch was... Ach ja, das sind die, bei denen man ne halbe Stunde auf die Karte warten muss - Ne, lass ma', schauen wir lieber bei Google oder MAP24. Vermutlich ist das eh alles viel besser und genauer, immerhin setzen die bezahlte Mitarbeiter ein. Die dürfen sich keine Fehler erlauben, sonst fliegen s'e. Das ist jetzt Unsinn. Mag sein, dass wir durch schlechte Presse für ein halbes Jahr einige Laufkundschaft verlieren. Aber wenn OSM dann wirklich mal eine ernsthafte Konkurrenz in der Fläche ist, dann gibt sich das schnell wieder. Die Wikipedia hatte auch einen Haufen schlechte Presse und ist deshalb trotzdem keim Misserfolg. -- Gernot ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Noch einmal zu Stadtmauern
Hallo, * Natürlich ist es auf Dauer nicht wünschenswert, drei verschiedene Tags im Datenbestand haben. Vor allem wird jeder Neuling durch so etwas abgeschreckt. Was man evtl machen könnte wäre, daß man z.B. ein tmp_historic=citywall oder ein historic=tmp_citywall benutzt. Um so zu kennzeichnen, daß darüber noch diskutiert wird. Dann ließe sich später auch alle verschiedenen Versionen automatisch wandeln. Dieses tmp_ würde auch jedem sagen, Du darfst dies ändern wenn es eine Entscheidung gibt. Sonst haben wir ja doch meist etwas Hemmungen einfach etwas ncht ganz falsches von einem anderen zu ändern. Dimitri ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] BETA: Statistik Buchholz in der Nordheide
Hallo, Besorgt Euch bei Eurer Gemeine ein Straßenverzeichnis (möglichst Maschinenlesbar) und eine Erlaubnis es für diesen Zweck (Abgleich mit bestehende Straßen in OSM und Veröffentlichung im Internet) zu benutzen und ich mach (natürlich brauche ich dann auch etwas zeit dafür) eine automatische Seite dazu. ein Hinweis von mir: Viele Städte geben das Verzeichnis nicht kostenfrei und vorallem nicht für die OSM-Nutzung raus. Guckt daher auch nach der Satzung für die Müllentsorgung. Dieser hängt meistens das aktuelle Straßenverzeichnis, in dem allerdings viele privatgereinigte Straße fehlen, bei. Meist allerdings besser als gar nichts :-) Grüße Tobias ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Antw: Flyer: Status und Neudesign
Zitat TopSpotter: Ich denke, wir sollten auf jeden Fall bei A7 oder maximal A6 bleiben, oder von mir aus auch ein nicht-DIN-Format aehnlicher Groesse. Was spricht gegen das gebräuchliche Flyerformat in dreifach-Faltung, wie es in allen Branchen und Projekten üblig ist? [...] Nix. Spricht aber auch nichts dagegen, verschiedene Versionen zu entwerfen. Die A7 passen besser in die Brieftasche. Ich habe davon staendig drei-vier drin und deshalb immer einen parat, wenn es noetig ist. -- Michael ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Antw: Flyer: Status und Neudesign
Hallo, TopSpotter schrieb: Was spricht gegen das gebräuchliche Flyerformat in dreifach-Faltung, wie es in allen Branchen und Projekten üblig ist? Ich habe hier mit den A7- Flyern das Problem, das sie in den offiziellen Flyerständern untergehen. Diese Ständer (zumindest die bei uns) haben keine Einzelfächer, sondern die Flyer stehen nebeneinander. Dadurch verrutscht ein Paket schon mal und gerät ob der verkürzten Höhe in den Hintergrund. Ich denke, es sollte kein Problem sein, verschiedene Layouts zu erstellen: Eine Messe-Version und eine Rumschlepp-Version. Hauptsache das Corporate-Design ist identisch. Grüße Tobias ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] JOSM: simplify way (utilsplugin)
Hi! ich benutze seit einiger Zeit das utilsplugin und die simplify-way. Bisher wurden nach meinem Geschmack zu wenige Punkte entfernt. Jetzt habe ich das Plugin aktualisiert und scheinbar wurde die Empfindlichkeit verringert .. jetzt entfernt es so viele Punkte, dass der vereinfachte Weg teilweise 50-100m neben dem eigentlichen verläuft. Weiß jemand ob man diese Empfindlichkeit irgendwo einstellen kann ? Viele Grüße, Alexander ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Flyer: Status und Neudesign
Frederik Ramm schrieb: Hallo, unser A7-Flyer ist ein sehr grosser Erfolg. Insgesamt sind schaetzungsweise schon so 15.000 Stueck davon verteilt worden (naja, 15.000 habe ich verschickt, nicht alle davon werden den Weg in die Hand eines Kunden gefunden haben), und jede Woche verschicke ich Paeckchen und Briefe mit 10, 50, 100 oder 200 Stueck durch die Republik (und in angrenzende Alpenrepubliken sowie Eidgenossenschaften ;-). wo kann man das dingens denn mal sehen? liegt das irgendwo zum download? -- als dann gremmel ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Flyer: Status und Neudesign
Hallo, wo kann man das dingens denn mal sehen? liegt das irgendwo zum download? Ja, alles im Quelltext (SVG-Datei) hier: http://svn.openstreetmap.org/misc/pr_material/german_flyer_2008-01/ Da liegen auch .png-Dateien, falls man sich nicht den ganzen SVG-Kram runterladen will. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Antw: Flyer: Status und Neudesign
Hallo, Frederik Ramm schrieb: Vor dem Wort Corporate Design graut mir etwas, am Ende kommt jemand und sagt, fuer die naechsten 10 Jahre muessen alle unsere Flyer kaffeebraun sein und das OSM-Lupen-Logo vorne drauf haben, das waere doch etwas sehr eintoenig. Nein nein, ich meinte mit Corporate Design jetzt nur, das die unterschiedlichen Flyer gleich aussehen sollten. Also nicht ein Flyer grün und der andere rot, dass niemand weiß, dass sie zusammengehören. Grüße Tobias ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Antw: Flyer: Status und Neudesign
Zum Inhalt der Flyer! Ich denke das es eine gute Idee wäre, wenn wir darauf aufmerksam machen das man z.B. mit seinen Fitnessstudios oder seiner Friseurkette oder dergl. in OSM präsent sein zu können. Man könnte uns dann z.B. mit den Wegpunkten für diese Geschäfte, bzw. Kette was auch immer unterstützen und wir pflegen sie ein. Gerade haben wir so etwas mit den Kieser Fitnessstudios gemacht. Die Deutschen Jugendherbergen werden bald folgen! Hilfreich ist dann außer den Koordinaten des POI's auch die Adresse, das kann z.B. der Überprüfung unser Daten dienen. Jedenfalls sind das Infos von beiderseitigem Nutzen und wir tuen gut dran sie einzupflegen und der Firmen tuen gut dran dies für sich zu nutzen. Das sollte man deutlich machen. Gruß Sven S. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Worldfile Revolutions 22. Juli 2008
Hallo, Gerd von Egidy schrieb: Markieren von Straßen etc. auf meinem etrex Vista HCx die Bezeichnungen nicht Hab auch ein Vista HCx Kann mal jemand anderes mit nem etrex aus der H-Serie schauen, ob er das reproduzieren kann? Also einfach nach Tübingen (ca. 30 km südlich von Stuttgart) reinzoomen und mit dem Cursor über ne Straße in der Stadt gehen. Eigentlich sollte er dann sagen Wilhelmstraße oder so ähnlich, bei mir kommt aber einfach nix. Es funktioniert bei mir absolut so wie es sein soll, ich habe hier jetzt die Karte mit Typ-File im Einsatz, es geht in Tübingen als auch in Heilbronn perfekt. Liegt vielleicht an der Detailbegrenzung oder Kartendetaileinstellung? -- Viele Gruesse Computerteddy ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:29:09AM +0200, Johann H. Addicks wrote: Florian Lohoff schrieb: infrastruktur vergroessert d.h. mal mit Hardware zu loesen. Nur leider faellt halt dieserlei Hardware nicht gerade aus den Wolken. Deshalb meine Frage: Wieviel Geld wird gebraucht? Ein Spendenaufruf könnte dann was bringen. Zumindest mir wäre es durchaus mehr als nur 10 oder 20 Euro wert, die Resourcenprobleme bei [EMAIL PROTECTED], der Namenssuche und beim GPX-Parser für die nächsten Monate aus der Welt zu schaffen. Oder wäre ich da dann der einzige Spender? Also - Wir reden von viel Ram =16GB und viel platte wobei das mit der platte also gemeint ist das es auch viele platten sein sollten. Also nicht 2x500GB Sata und gut sondern eher 10-20x72GB U160 im externen enclosure. Wenn es um reines Database/Tile serving geht ist typischerweise die CPU nicht der bottleneck sondern die i/o performance. Und leider ist eben die notwendige Hardware nicht gerade Alternate off-the-shelf zeugs Ich haette da an HP DL385 und nen StorageWorks array gedacht a la HP StorageWorks MSA70 with 25 146GB SAS SFF 3.6TB Bundle AG893A. Sind aber zusammen vermutlich 15-20KDollar es sei denn jemand hat gute HP Kontakte und kann die zu einem Special Project Price ueberreden. Wobei sicherlich ich nicht der richtige bin die Hardware zu dimensionieren aber bei 2.2TByte tiles und dann noch nen bischen datenbank geraffel wird man bei so einer groessenordnung landen. Flo -- Florian Lohoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] +49-171-2280134 Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis bekommen (war Re : BETA: Statistik Buchholz in der Nordheide)
Am Montag, 28. Juli 2008 13:34 schrieb Tobias Wendorff: Hallo, Besorgt Euch bei Eurer Gemeine ein Straßenverzeichnis (möglichst Maschinenlesbar) und eine Erlaubnis es für diesen Zweck (Abgleich mit bestehende Straßen in OSM und Veröffentlichung im Internet) zu benutzen und ich mach (natürlich brauche ich dann auch etwas zeit dafür) eine automatische Seite dazu. ein Hinweis von mir: Viele Städte geben das Verzeichnis nicht kostenfrei und vorallem nicht für die OSM-Nutzung raus. Das ist nicht meine Erfahrung. Eher das sie manchmal recht lange brauchen zum überlegen. Wenn eine Stadt sich weigert die Daten gegen Bezahlung an OSM heraus zu geben würde ich gerne davon wissen. Schickt mir gerne den Mailverkehr. In meinen Augen würde dann OSM gegenüber anderen Mittbewerbern benachteiligt. Guckt daher auch nach der Satzung für die Müllentsorgung. Dieser hängt meistens das aktuelle Straßenverzeichnis, in dem allerdings viele privatgereinigte Straße fehlen, bei. Ja, nur das du dieses ja auch nicht verwenden darfst. da ein Anhang zu einer Verordnung ja eben nur ein Anhang und nicht teil der Verordnung ist, oder? Gruß Sven ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis bekommen (war Re : BETA: Statistik Buchholz in der Nordheide)
Hallo! Am 28. Juli 2008 14:56 schrieb Sven Anders [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am Montag, 28. Juli 2008 13:34 schrieb Tobias Wendorff: Guckt daher auch nach der Satzung für die Müllentsorgung. Dieser hängt meistens das aktuelle Straßenverzeichnis, in dem allerdings viele privatgereinigte Straße fehlen, bei. Ja, nur das du dieses ja auch nicht verwenden darfst. da ein Anhang zu einer Verordnung ja eben nur ein Anhang und nicht teil der Verordnung ist, oder? Satzungen sind Gesetze, für die gilt §5 UrhG, sie sind gemeinfrei: http://www.bundesrecht.juris.de/urhg/__5.html Ob ein Anhang nun teil der Satzung ist (wovon ich ausgehe) oder nicht ist imho aber auch egal - im Zweifel werden die dann wohl unter Absatz 2 fallen: (2) Das gleiche gilt für andere amtliche Werke, die im amtlichen Interesse zur allgemeinen Kenntnisnahme veröffentlicht worden sind, [...] Wir veröffentlichen diese Listen aber auch ohnehin nicht, sondern nehmen sie ja nur als Grundlage für ein abgeleitetes Werk... Gruß, Stefan ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis bekommen (war Re : BETA: Statistik Buchholz in der Nordheide)
Sven Anders schrieb: Das ist nicht meine Erfahrung. Eher das sie manchmal recht lange brauchen zum überlegen. Wenn eine Stadt sich weigert die Daten gegen Bezahlung an OSM heraus zu geben würde ich gerne davon wissen. Es war viel eher auf die kostenfreie Herausgabe bezogen. Aber auch wenn man Geld für das Verzeichnis bezahlt, hat man noch lange nicht das Recht, den Inhalt daraus frei zu verkaufen oder zu verändern. Schickt mir gerne den Mailverkehr. In meinen Augen würde dann OSM gegenüber anderen Mittbewerbern benachteiligt. Sorry, aber Du musst Verständnis haben, wenn ich keine Mails Dritter hier veröffentliche. Guckt daher auch nach der Satzung für die Müllentsorgung. Dieser hängt meistens das aktuelle Straßenverzeichnis, in dem allerdings viele privatgereinigte Straße fehlen, bei. Ja, nur das du dieses ja auch nicht verwenden darfst. da ein Anhang zu einer Verordnung ja eben nur ein Anhang und nicht teil der Verordnung ist, oder? Wie ich erfahren habe, sind solche Satzungen gemeinfrei (siehe B-Plan Diskussion). ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis bekommen (war Re : BETA: Statistik Buchholz in der Nordheide)
Stefan Schwan schrieb: Wir veröffentlichen diese Listen aber auch ohnehin nicht, sondern nehmen sie ja nur als Grundlage für ein abgeleitetes Werk... Was ich mich jetzt halt immer frage: Muss nicht der Urheber auch bei dem abgeleiteten Werk angegeben werden, auch wenn die Daten gemeinfrei sind? Von der wissenschaftlichen Herangehensweise würde ich es so machen... ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Straßenverzeichnis bekommen (war Re : BETA: Statistik Buchholz in der Nordheide)
Hi! 2008/7/28 Tobias Wendorff [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Stefan Schwan schrieb: Wir veröffentlichen diese Listen aber auch ohnehin nicht, sondern nehmen sie ja nur als Grundlage für ein abgeleitetes Werk... Was ich mich jetzt halt immer frage: Muss nicht der Urheber auch bei dem abgeleiteten Werk angegeben werden, auch wenn die Daten gemeinfrei sind? Von der wissenschaftlichen Herangehensweise würde ich es so machen... Sehe ich auch so. Ich habe das Straßenverzeichnis der Müllsatzung von Monheim am Rhein dazu benutzt fehlende Straßen auf der Wiki-Seite zu Monheim am Rhein zu veröffentlichen. Das habe ich dann auch als Quelle angegeben. Gruß, Stefan ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Tennisplatz in Sportverein in Wald
Hi, nur eine kurze Frage: Wie bekomme ich folgendes am besten hin, so dass die alles in Mapnik erscheint: Tennisplatz (sport=tennis) in Sportverein (sport=multi)? in Wald (landuse=forest) Wege gehen natürlich auch noch durch das Vereinsgebiet. Leider wird von mapnik nur der Wald gerendert. Von Hand die Layer anzupassen scheint mir an dieser Stelle nicht die richtige Lösung zu sein. Was also tun? BTW: es geht um diesen Bereich: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.82616lon=8.63787zoom=17layers=B00FTF GeoJ ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Tennisplatz in Sportverein in Wald
GeoJ schrieb: Tennisplatz (sport=tennis) in Sportverein (sport=multi)? in Wald (landuse=forest) Wege gehen natürlich auch noch durch das Vereinsgebiet. Leider wird von mapnik nur der Wald gerendert. Von Hand die Layer anzupassen scheint mir an dieser Stelle nicht die richtige Lösung zu sein. Was also tun? Also ich empfinde es als korrekt, den Wald im Bereich des Sportvereins per Multipolygon aus zuschneiden: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relation:multipolygon Denn dort wo die Sportanlagen sind wird das Land ja weder forstwirtschaftlich genutzt (landuse=forest), noch stehen dort Bäume (natural=wood). grüße, sven ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] JOSM: simplify way (utilsplugin)
Alexander Menk schrieb: ich benutze seit einiger Zeit das utilsplugin und die simplify-way. Bisher wurden nach meinem Geschmack zu wenige Punkte entfernt. Jetzt habe ich das Plugin aktualisiert und scheinbar wurde die Empfindlichkeit verringert .. jetzt entfernt es so viele Punkte, dass der vereinfachte Weg teilweise 50-100m neben dem eigentlichen verläuft. Ich perönlich und auch ein paar Andrer hier in der ML mögen das Plugin nicht besonders. Ich selbst gehe so vor, dass ich bereits bei der Wegerstellung nur so viele Punkte wie nötig setze. Man erkennt mit der Zeit sehr schnell, ob es sich um eine echte Kurve oder nur um Messungenauigkeiten handelt. In Kurven gebe ich persönlich gerne mehr Punkte aus, damit es auch ohne glättung relativ rund aussieht. Das heisst, dass ih jeden zweiten oder dritten GPS-Punkt, manchmal auch häufiger, einen Node setze. Muss natürlich jeder selbst wissen, aber meine Meinung ist, dass durch die automatische Vereinfachung mehr kaputt gemacht als gewonnen wird. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Tennisplatz in Sportverein in Wald
GeoJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tennisplatz (sport=tennis) in Sportverein (sport=multi)? Sowas hab ich hier gezeichnet: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.06372lon=8.51092zoom=16layers=B00FTF Sieht im osmarender aber schöner aus (wenn der [EMAIL PROTECTED] Server mal wieder brauchbar schnell laufen sollte). Der Unterschied ist halt, dass meine Plätze am Waldrand sind und nicht im Wald. Dafür würde ich ein Multipolygon mit Loch verwenden. Das Loch dann wie bei mir mit leisure=sports_center die Tennisplätze als sport=tennis. Gruss Sven -- Kernel panic: I have no root and I want to scream (Linux Kernel Error Message) /me is [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Wegpunkte aus JOSM exportieren
Hallo, gibt es eigentlich schon irgendeine Möglichkeit in JOSM Wegpunkte mit Namen zu setzen und diese anschließend als GPX zu speichern, so dass man diese in ein GPS laden kann (mit Namen)? Letztens hatte ich ein paar Track-Information in JOSM gesehen, wo es keine Wege in OSM gab. Da habe ich dann einen neuen Layer erstellt und dort die Punkte, die ich mir vor Ort anschauen wollte markiert. Anschließend habe ich diese Datei von Hand in eine GPX-Datei für das GPS konvertiert und dann dort reingeladen. Gibt es schon irgendein Werkzeug, dass mir dabei hilft? Sonst muss ich mir wohl ein Skript schreiben, dass obige Konvertierung automatisch macht, hätte aber gedacht, dass es so etwas schon gibt. Meine Suche hiernach war aber leider erfolglos. Viele Grüße und danke schonmal Sebastian Waschik ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Noch einmal zu Stadtmauern
Hallo! 2008/7/28 Dimitri Junker [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Daher kommt dann halt der Spruch jetzt fang' einfach mal an. Das sagt ihm hier jemand in der talk-de, ein anderer bekommt das gleiche in talk-us oder wo auch immer gesagt und ein dritter der heute noch nicht talk- de liest kommt nächsten Monat auch auf die tolle Idee und alle denken sich aus wie man Stadtmauern bezeichnen könnte. Es geht ja nicht darum, etwas einzutragen und das nicht zu kommunizieren - wir wollen doch alle, das die Daten die wir eingeben auch von anderen Leuten benutzt werden können. Der Königsweg ist da imho das Vorgehen wie beim Karlsruher Hausnummern Modell: 1. Selber überlegen was sinnvoll ist 2. Selber Daten erfassen und auf diese Art und Weise eintragen 3. Selber einen Wiki-Artikel schreiben der das Vorgehen dokumentiert. 4. Auf Mailingliste(n) auf das neue Schema / die Beispieldaten / das Wiki hinweisen. 5. Diskussion über mögliche Alternativen führen. 5a. (optional) ein förmliches Voting abhalten. Der Deutsche / Techniker Weg fängt bei Nummer 5 an, und niemals darüber hinaus - es kommt niemals zu Nummer 2 ;) Gruß, Stefan ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSMKarte mit Glopus nutzen
Gibt es irgendwas womit man ein Gebiet markieren kann und das dann automatisch Karten mehrerer Zoomlevel für diesen Bereich lädt? Wenn nicht mache ich da was, aber nur in C++. Soweit schonmal vielen Dank. Dimitri Hallo, das Taho-script kann nur ein zoomlevel, dafür aber mehrere Kacheln. z.b. ./taho.pl -coord=13,49.58,11.00 -size=3 -neighbormaps=2 würde Dir Zoomlevel 13 laden, es sollten insgesamt 25 Karten dabei rauskommen ./taho.pl -coord=12,49.58,11.00 -size=3 -neighbormaps=3 würde Dir Zoomlevel 12 laden, es sollten insgesamt 49 Karten dabei rauskommen Sei aber etwas vorsichtig mit den neighbormaps, da das ganze immer quadratisch eingeht. Ansonsten bin ich auch noch auf der Suche nach einer webbasierten Lösung. Mir fehlt leider momentan der Ansatzpunkt. Mit perl ist es vermutlich etwas schwieriger, ohne das der Traffic über den Webserver läuft. Java würde wahrscheinlich gehen, da bin ich aber nicht sattelfest. Grüße Oliver ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
Also - Wir reden von viel Ram =16GB und viel platte wobei das mit der platte also gemeint ist das es auch viele platten sein sollten. Also nicht 2x500GB Sata und gut sondern eher 10-20x72GB U160 im externen enclosure. Vielleicht eine dumme Idee, aber trotzdem: gibt es so etwas auch second hand? Zum Beispiel wenn Wikipedia die Hardware nicht nur erweitert, sondern komplett austauscht, könnte man da vielleicht etwas abstauben, was besser ist als das, was uns zur Zeit zur Verfügung steht? Paul ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Wegpunkte aus JOSM exportieren
Moin, Anschließend habe ich diese Datei von Hand in eine GPX-Datei für das GPS konvertiert und dann dort reingeladen. gpsbabel.org spricht inzwischen auch OSM. Cheers, ce ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Noch einmal zu Stadtmauern
Schluchz, Es geht ja nicht darum, etwas einzutragen und das nicht zu kommunizieren - wir wollen doch alle, das die Daten die wir eingeben auch von anderen Leuten benutzt werden können. Der Königsweg ist da imho das Vorgehen wie beim Karlsruher Hausnummern Modell: 1. Selber überlegen was sinnvoll ist 2. Selber Daten erfassen und auf diese Art und Weise eintragen 3. Selber einen Wiki-Artikel schreiben der das Vorgehen dokumentiert. 4. Auf Mailingliste(n) auf das neue Schema / die Beispieldaten / das Wiki hinweisen. 5. Diskussion über mögliche Alternativen führen. 5a. (optional) ein förmliches Voting abhalten. Der Deutsche / Techniker Weg fängt bei Nummer 5 an, und niemals darüber hinaus - es kommt niemals zu Nummer 2 ;) dass ich ein solches Posting noch erleben darf - DANKE! :) ce ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
2008/7/28 Paul Lenz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vielleicht eine dumme Idee, aber trotzdem: gibt es so etwas auch second hand? Zum Beispiel wenn Wikipedia die Hardware nicht nur erweitert, sondern komplett austauscht, könnte man da vielleicht etwas abstauben, was besser ist als das, was uns zur Zeit zur Verfügung steht? Tut mir leid, aber Server dieser Groessenordnung hat Wikimedia nicht uebrig. Was gerade ausser Dienst ging, sind Maschinen mit Pentium4 und 512MB RAM. Damit kann auch OSM nicht mehr viel anfangen. Und die Transportkosten duerften den Restwert der Maschinen auch uebersteigen. jens ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [EMAIL PROTECTED] furchtbar langsam
Moin, Ich habe OSM vor vielleicht anderthalb bis 2 Jahren kennengelernt, hielt es für unausgereift und habe es ignoriert. Ging mir beim Erstkontakt auch so. Karte war leer, Projekt uninteressant. ihr Memmen :) . Die leere Karte war gerade der Ansporn (OK, nachdem ich mich ein paar Wochen lang von der Agilität des Projektes überzeugt hatte) mitzumachen. Gruß, ce ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Wegpunkte aus JOSM exportieren
Hallo, gibt es eigentlich schon irgendeine Möglichkeit in JOSM Wegpunkte mit Namen zu setzen und diese anschließend als GPX zu speichern, so dass man diese in ein GPS laden kann (mit Namen)? Save as GPX? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSMKarte mit Glopus nutzen
Hallo, Ansonsten bin ich auch noch auf der Suche nach einer webbasierten Lösung. Über http://sdsnetz.de/glopus/ kann man Google-Karten laden, es wäre wahrscheinlich recht einfach dies auf OSM-Karten zu erweitern. Aber ein Kontakt o.ä. gibt es da nicht. Man könnte natürlich mal bei denic schauen. Wie gesagt wenn ich es mache wird es in C++ unter VisualC geschrieben. Entweder die kleine Lösung ohne grafische Anzeige oder eben mit. Auf alle Fälle so, daß man mit einem Aufruf mehrere Zoomlevel laden kann. Dimitri ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Liebe Mitkartographen, als Atheist liegt es mir fern, mich an die Götter zu wenden, aber ich glaube, wenn ich mal wieder 'nen Zeugen Jehovas auf der Straße treffe, bitte ich ihn, für mich ein gutes Wort einzulegen. Wann endlich wird es eine Qualitätskontrolle geben, die verhindert, dass Potlatcher einem die ganze Arbeit kaputtmachen? Potlatch mag sein ein tolles Tool sein, ein gut gemeintes Tool ... leider wissen vielleicht 2 % der Leute, die es verwenden, was sie da tun. Ihr wisst ja, dass gut gemeint das Gegentum zu gut ist. Der Rest sind wie 4jährige, denen Du Malstifte gibst und sie dann in ein frisch tapeziertes Zimmer sperrst. Und wer sich DANN noch wundert, dass er anschließend neu tapezieren muss, der gehört mit rostigen Nägeln ans Kreuz genagelt. Ich bin begeistert bei der Truppe und kartographiere wirklich gerne und so oft es meine Zeit erlaubt ... leider viel zu wenig. Aber wenn ich nur noch 10% Mapping und 90% Fehlerkorrektur vor mir habe, da hat der Spaß echt ein Loch. Ich bin mir recht sicher, dass ich mir meiner Meinung nicht allein da stehe. Sollte ich mich irren, sagt mir einfach Bescheid, dann verschwende ich meine Zeit lieber mit einem anderen Hobby und lass die Potlatcher weitergrandeln. Aber mit der Qualität, die die OSM-Karte vielerorts hat, gewinnen wir kaum einen Blumentopf, wenn's zur Nagelprobe kommt. Sissiphus hatte zeitweise 'nen leichteren Job als die Leute, die ernsthaft versuchen, hier eine hochqualitative Karte zu erstellen. Den hat nur EIN Hügel gestört, nicht aberdutzende von wohlwollenden Dilletanten. Sorry für die harten Worte. Aber so wie's jetzt ist, werden sehr viele Leute vergrault. Und das ist traurig bei einem solch tollen Projekt. LG Ralf aka TigerDuck -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEVAwUBSI4PvjHU7t9XiJ++AQK15wf/Zqyh+u/SLyNKeW8QQJuiYZOMee2bp29H 7TRnX7LP2hWBZXicvo9FfgpBPphYPkV35cquwKUy21gOEG8rqf1l747M81GgX2GC QCyuoelu/jpaF66chIMbgjfCBRf57fhNJ5LahaMsKxlFeRlH9urzHezKc3KY9cpU E2kGZhBRJedNCeEfMqH6yXTjQvCrFfnEnvECnVyFYjQq2ctW9PGi0HNXqYLI1j9Z gcxPpPWudHC4fo9Flv/mTaqQkIuCUhxXCUjRhNlHdKBSYpfKFgMLvo+OQFDWF7tT hzXSapEF7gtkPPpa5QrP1KsQv9LxiVfp37CJEqhDt+iUsv9CkggJwg== =Sfra -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Zitat Ralf Oltmanns: Wann endlich wird es eine Qualitätskontrolle geben, die verhindert, dass Potlatcher einem die ganze Arbeit kaputtmachen? Fuer mich bitte frisches Popkorn und eine Diaetcola! SCNR -- Michael ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Potlatch, die Siebenundzwölfigste
Michael Buege schrieb: Zitat Ralf Oltmanns: Wann endlich wird es eine Qualitätskontrolle geben, die verhindert, dass Potlatcher einem die ganze Arbeit kaputtmachen? Fuer mich bitte frisches Popkorn und eine Diaetcola! Glaubst Du wirklich, dass auf die Diskussion noch mal jemand anspringt? Langsam ist das Thema doch wirklich totdiskutiert. Ansonsten für mich bitte auch einmal Popkorn. Gruß, Thomas ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
