[talk-ph] pepeng is even stronger
Just to remind you guys of the expected SuperTyphoon Pepeng. Hope all will be well after this. http://www.pagasa.dost.gov.ph/wb/wbfcst.html -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distribution
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Greg Holloway peanutzkingpeng...@hotmail.com wrote: I hope i have picked the right list to ask these questions, please alow me to explain myself; I am a 4x4 off-roader and i have a laptop on the dash of my vehicle running memory map. I have been searching the internet for cheap detailed maps. I have had little success. I took the decision to make my own maps. I have began compiling DVDs/CDs with map data taken from the US Gov GeoCover website https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/mrsid.pl and openstreetmap xml data. i have then encoded it into geotiff tiles for use with memory map and other gps based software. i have the intention of selling the dvds at cost, around £10. this will include a donation of £2.50 to openstreetmap. the remainder of the money will cover the free postage,ebay fees and the cost of a dvd with a case. I have been trying to find someone at openstreetmap that can help me with the legalities of putting openstreetmap onto a dvd which i then sell. I don't want to step on anyone toes as it were. for an idea of what i am doing point your browsers to http://maps.sj410.co.uk on there i have the html which autorun when the dvd/cd is inserted into the users pc. i have only started work on iceland for the moment but i hope to include other contries if what i am doing is acceptable. What you're doing is just fine by the CC-BY-SA license. You're also not modifying the map data so all you have to worry about is making it clear when you distribute it that it's from OpenStreetMap See this text for more information: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F The attribution appropriate to your medium I think would be: * If you're printing something on the DVD itself or its casing it should include (c) OpenStreetMap (and) contributors, CC-BY-SA somewhere or a similar text you can reasonably fit. * In your autorun HTML you should not refer to the OSM license as OpenStreetMap.Org Creative Commons License but rather something like OpenStreetMap data available under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license with a link to the license How will users view your maps? Are you just distributing GeoTIFF files or do you bundle some sort of map viewer as well? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distribution
Greg Holloway peanutzkingpeng...@... writes: Hello,I hope i have picked the right list to ask these questions, please alow me to explain myself;I am a 4x4 off-roader and i have a laptop on the dash of my vehicle running memory map. I have been searching the internet for cheap detailed maps. I have had little success. I took the decision to make my own maps. I have began compiling DVDs/CDs with map data taken from the US Gov GeoCover website https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/mrsid.pl and openstreetmap xml data. i have then encoded it into geotiff tiles for use with memory map and other gps based software. Hi, I suggest to consider including OziExplorer .map calibration files on the CDs/DVDs, I suppose 4x4 folks use often Ozi. Best image formats for Ozi users are its own ozf3 format or ecw but both can be generated easily from Geotiffs. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distribution
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:19:01 + From: ava...@gmail.com To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distribution On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Greg Holloway peanutzkingpeng...@hotmail.com wrote: I hope i have picked the right list to ask these questions, please alow me to explain myself; I am a 4x4 off-roader and i have a laptop on the dash of my vehicle running memory map. I have been searching the internet for cheap detailed maps. I have had little success. I took the decision to make my own maps. I have began compiling DVDs/CDs with map data taken from the US Gov GeoCover website https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/mrsid.pl and openstreetmap xml data. i have then encoded it into geotiff tiles for use with memory map and other gps based software. i have the intention of selling the dvds at cost, around £10. this will include a donation of £2.50 to openstreetmap. the remainder of the money will cover the free postage,ebay fees and the cost of a dvd with a case. I have been trying to find someone at openstreetmap that can help me with the legalities of putting openstreetmap onto a dvd which i then sell. I don't want to step on anyone toes as it were. for an idea of what i am doing point your browsers to http://maps.sj410.co.uk on there i have the html which autorun when the dvd/cd is inserted into the users pc. i have only started work on iceland for the moment but i hope to include other contries if what i am doing is acceptable. What you're doing is just fine by the CC-BY-SA license. You're also not modifying the map data so all you have to worry about is making it clear when you distribute it that it's from OpenStreetMap See this text for more information: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F The attribution appropriate to your medium I think would be: * If you're printing something on the DVD itself or its casing it should include (c) OpenStreetMap (and) contributors, CC-BY-SA somewhere or a similar text you can reasonably fit. * In your autorun HTML you should not refer to the OSM license as OpenStreetMap.Org Creative Commons License but rather something like OpenStreetMap data available under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license with a link to the license How will users view your maps? Are you just distributing GeoTIFF files or do you bundle some sort of map viewer as well? i will just be including the tiles, no software. i will be writting details to the dvd not the casing and i shall mention openstreepmap copyright and any others related., i'll change the text on the autorun html to include your suggestion. should i include the raw data on the dvd, ie before i have encoded the geotiff? thanks for you help. _ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distribution
To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org From: jukka.rahko...@mmmtike.fi Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 13:28:34 + Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distribution Greg Holloway peanutzkingpeng...@... writes: Hello,I hope i have picked the right list to ask these questions, please alow me to explain myself;I am a 4x4 off-roader and i have a laptop on the dash of my vehicle running memory map. I have been searching the internet for cheap detailed maps. I have had little success. I took the decision to make my own maps. I have began compiling DVDs/CDs with map data taken from the US Gov GeoCover website https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/mrsid.pl and openstreetmap xml data. i have then encoded it into geotiff tiles for use with memory map and other gps based software. Hi, I suggest to consider including OziExplorer .map calibration files on the CDs/DVDs, I suppose 4x4 folks use often Ozi. Best image formats for Ozi users are its own ozf3 format or ecw but both can be generated easily from Geotiffs. i had considered using multiple formats but decided on geotiff and it seems to be compatible with most if not all navigation software. in the UK most people use either memory map or garmins software. i will check ozi explorer in more detail. _ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distribution
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Greg Holloway peanutzkingpeng...@hotmail.com wrote: Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:19:01 + From: ava...@gmail.com To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distribution On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Greg Holloway peanutzkingpeng...@hotmail.com wrote: I hope i have picked the right list to ask these questions, please alow me to explain myself; I am a 4x4 off-roader and i have a laptop on the dash of my vehicle running memory map. I have been searching the internet for cheap detailed maps. I have had little success. I took the decision to make my own maps. I have began compiling DVDs/CDs with map data taken from the US Gov GeoCover website https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/mrsid.pl and openstreetmap xml data. i have then encoded it into geotiff tiles for use with memory map and other gps based software. i have the intention of selling the dvds at cost, around £10. this will include a donation of £2.50 to openstreetmap. the remainder of the money will cover the free postage,ebay fees and the cost of a dvd with a case. I have been trying to find someone at openstreetmap that can help me with the legalities of putting openstreetmap onto a dvd which i then sell. I don't want to step on anyone toes as it were. for an idea of what i am doing point your browsers to http://maps.sj410.co.uk on there i have the html which autorun when the dvd/cd is inserted into the users pc. i have only started work on iceland for the moment but i hope to include other contries if what i am doing is acceptable. What you're doing is just fine by the CC-BY-SA license. You're also not modifying the map data so all you have to worry about is making it clear when you distribute it that it's from OpenStreetMap See this text for more information: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F The attribution appropriate to your medium I think would be: * If you're printing something on the DVD itself or its casing it should include (c) OpenStreetMap (and) contributors, CC-BY-SA somewhere or a similar text you can reasonably fit. * In your autorun HTML you should not refer to the OSM license as OpenStreetMap.Org Creative Commons License but rather something like OpenStreetMap data available under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license with a link to the license How will users view your maps? Are you just distributing GeoTIFF files or do you bundle some sort of map viewer as well? i will just be including the tiles, no software. i will be writting details to the dvd not the casing and i shall mention openstreepmap copyright and any others related., i'll change the text on the autorun html to include your suggestion. should i include the raw data on the dvd, ie before i have encoded the geotiff? there's no need to include the raw data on the dvd. and you're already showing the openstreetmap attribution, so people will know where to go if they want the raw data. cheers, matt ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] ODbL virality questions
hi legals, i've come across a couple of interesting questions / use-cases for the ODbL and wider discussion. it basically reduces to whether we want the ODbL to have viral (GPL-like) behaviour, or whether it should be less viral (LGPL-like). we've discussed this at an LWG meeting and the general feeling was that the LGPL-like behaviour would be more desirable, as it would allow wider use of OSM by third parties. however, it was felt that a wider discussion is necessary. first case: a site wishes to use OSM data as a basis for non-geographic data. the example used is a review side, like beerintheevening.com or tripadvisor.com. they might want to use OSM as the source of geographic data by linking its reviews to OSM node IDs (or lat/lons taken from the OSM data). under a GPL-like interpretation of the ODbL, this would taint the database, requiring its release. considering that the records in the database may contain private information (IP/email address of the reviewer) this may mean that the site decides not to use OSM, because releasing the DB would violate their own privacy policy. second case: OSM data is downloaded to a handheld device (e.g: iphone). this is likely (given the screen size of the device) to be an insubstantial amount. the data is locally used for reference when entering other information (e.g: abovesaid reviews). the reviews are uploaded to a non-OSM site, linked to the OSM-derived node ID or lat/lon. if many people do this, does that constitute repeated extraction and therefore require release of the non-OSM DB under the ODbL? i.e: can 3rd party sites use OSM IDs or lat/lons from OSM as keys into their database? the discussion at the LWG meeting centered around whether the database linking to OSM data could be considered stand-alone. using the similarity with the LGPL; whether the reviews database could be re-linked against another source of geographic data while continuing to work. this would imply that the list of (e.g: pubs or hotels) would need to be released as an extract of OSM as a list of OSM IDs or lat/lons, but that the reviews themselves and auxillary tables (such as the users' information) wouldn't constitute a derivative work of the OSM database. what are your thoughts? cheers, matt ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New license status
On 26/09/2009, at 3:02 AM, Mike Collinson wrote: - A very much re-worked Contributor Terms is now virtually complete and you can see a snapshot at http://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_1kqzg8dhr . Something I just thought of that would probably be worth talking about - how does the active contributor for voting, and other things, work if (unfortunately) the project forks? the geo-database of the OpenStreetMap project (the “Project”) ... or another free and open license; which other free and open license is chosen by a vote of the OSMF membership [MJC3] and approved by a vote of active contributors. ... An active contributor is defined as: a contributor (whether using a single or multiple accounts) that has edited the Project in any 3 calendar months from the last 6 months (i.e. there is a demonstrated interest over time,); and has maintained a valid email address in their registration profile and responds within 3 weeks. Two situations to think about: 1) Some time after a relicense to ODbL, there is a big argument and 20% of the mappers go off to form FreeStreeMap, based on a fork of the database. (question) does the OSFM membership retain it's voting power over a re-license for all derivative databases? A while later ( 3 months) OSM decides to relicense the db, perhaps to ODbL 2.0. (question) what exactly defines _the_ geo-database of the the Project? (question) and following that, if someone was contributing to OSM before the fork and FSM after it, do they get a vote on the re-license? 2) Some time after a re-license to ODbL, someone creates a derivative database called EvilStreetMap. They continue to release the data in accordance with the ODbL, but do not accept any outside contributors. (question) after waiting three months, who has voting rights over a re-license of EvilStreetMap? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 10:24:06AM +0100, David Earl wrote: And I think the previous point about other alphabets is a red herring too: basically no letter can precede all other letters in whatever alphabet. If there's ambiguity in the alphabet due to the glyph The problem is as follows: You see an interpolation 25a to 25c. How do you know that this means 25a, 25b, 25c? You know by removing the number and then starting with the a go through code points adding one until you reach c. Easy. This will work for all alphabets where that are layed out in alphabetical order in Unicode, and they probably all are. (but thats an assumption on my part :-) But, when you see an interpolation 25 to 25c. How do you know that this means 25, 25a, 25b, 25c? You again remove the number. That gives you the first entry. But what happens then? You have to look at the c, decide that thats a latin alphabet, the first letter of that is a and you go on with that. So you have to know all letters in all alphabets in the world to make this algorithm work. It might not be a big deal in practice, just another case where our assumptions might not hold everywhere. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Polish Potlatch doesn't work anymore.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 10:58:12AM +0200, stl...@poczta.fm wrote: It apparently stopped working because Polish translation[1] contains double quotes which make their way to html unescaped which produces a JS string like this: Blah blah foo bar blah in which foo bar becomes JS *code*. The quotes in the message should be escaped *and* the code which sends the message to the page should escape special characters. And Polish quotes should be: „” and not . Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:40 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: and you can have very big features (e.g. an extreme: atlantic ocean), or strangely shaped ones, where coordinates won't do the job (unless you give much more than just 1 pair), because the center would be off the object. There is something called bounding box where we use a pair of coordinates for such things. This is not a good argument to put url's in osm. And if you put an url on - let say - the relation representing the highway 66 in US, you will have any way to do some preprocessing to calculate the bounding box of this collection of ways. Again, all what is said about special rendering/highlighting/pointing/etc of objects with an url is valid for all web sites and not only wikipedia. I just want to say that if we accept that for wikipedia, we cannot refuse it for other web applications and this is opening the door to a bad practice. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using osm2pgsql can I import into postgres i n a projection other than Spherical Mercator (epsg :900913) like wgs84 (epsg:4326)
John Mitchell mitchelljj98 at gmail.com writes: Thanks,For the below information it noted that: This will import the data from the OSM file(s) into a PostgreSQL database suitable for use by the Mapnik rendererI am assuming that this command will also work correctly if my renderer is instead geoserver since I already have been using geoserver I would prefer to use it instead of Mapnik. It will work with Geoserver, Mapserver and anything else that can read spatial data from Postgis including GIS programs uDig, QGis, OpenJUMP etc. Hard thing with Geoserver will be to make styling. Mapnik xml looks quite a lot similar to standard SLD formatting that Geoserver is using, but it is not the same. It is not necessary to reproject data to the desired Geoserver output while PostGIS import. Geoserver can reproject data on-the-fly, but rendering will be at least a bit faster that way. Tables can also be reprojected inside PostGIS after import. As an example, these commands put data to Finnish KKJ system. update osm_point set way=transform(way,2393); update osm_line set way=transform(way,2393); update osm_polygon set way=transform(way,2393); update geometry_columns set srid=2393 where f_table_name='osm_point'; update geometry_columns set srid=2393 where f_table_name='osm_line'; update geometry_columns set srid=2393 where f_table_name='osm_polygon'; -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation
The problem is as follows: You see an interpolation 25a to 25c. How do you know that this means 25a, 25b, 25c? You know by removing the number and then starting with the a go through code points adding one until you reach c. Easy. This will work for all alphabets where that are layed out in alphabetical order in Unicode, and they probably all are. (but thats an assumption on my part :-) But, when you see an interpolation 25 to 25c. How do you know that this means 25, 25a, 25b, 25c? You again remove the number. That gives you the first entry. But what happens then? You count to the end of this interpolation-way (there are 4 nodes in, 1 is the start and 1 is the end, so 2 in between) and substract this number (2) from the last char (c). Following your assumptions from above this should work (when you can add 1 to go to the next char, you can also subtract 1 to go to the previous). This way you'll first get b and then a - those are the chars for your houses. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:46 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/2 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: Then the people who are mailing more than their fair share of posts will be asked to post less often. Hopefully they will realise that every time they post to the list it's delivered to 1,000s of others and they should keep their contributions under control. What exactly is this magical limit of fair share? Entirely depends on how useful your messages are, it's not a fixed limit. You'll know when you've gone well over when you are repeatedly called out on the mailing list, blog posts, parody pictures, twitter, IRC and direct emails all on the subject of you not knowing what you're talking about and/or that you are posting too often. It's a social thing, not a logical rule, and unfortunately some people just don't get it. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Isn't it time that the governing board establishes a tagging council of some sort (SteveC can't possibly have time to take all decisions), with the mandate to maintain an official set of keys and values (for applicable keys). Wouldn't also be a good idea to establish a convention that keys that are not in the official set should be prefixed with an agreed upon string, e.g. custom:my_very_own_key=value /Markus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com wrote: Isn't it time that the governing board establishes a tagging council of some sort (SteveC can't possibly have time to take all decisions), with the mandate to maintain an official set of keys and values (for applicable keys). Wouldn't also be a good idea to establish a convention that keys that are not in the official set should be prefixed with an agreed upon string, e.g. custom:my_very_own_key=value I think you're on the wrong mailing list - this is the openstreetmap mailing list and that's not how we will ever do things. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Matt Amos wrote:
i absolutely agree. i'd also defend frederik's right to say this is
the Frederik Ramm approved tagging scheme without catching grief, or
andy to say it's the One True Gravitystorm way, etc... etc...
Now we're getting somewhere. This goes back to an idea floated a while
ago by RichardF, and mentioned by Harry Wood in his talk at SOTM - I
think it is called tags I use.
The idea behind that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone makes
their own decisions (just like now) and in cases where people think they
have a good definition they put this on some kind of special wiki page
or database or whatever (tags I use, and how I use them). Others can
then choose to follow someone else's definitions, or not, or follow a
mix, or create their own.
That's fine, so long as the tags themselves are namespaced. Otherwise,
just as now, the semantics get confused.
I.E, It should be the case that if I tag as
FredericRamm:interesting=true
then I'm using the definition of 'interesting' *owned* by
FredericRamm. But If I tag
Gravitystorm:interesting=true
I'm using the definition *owned* by the gravitystorm person or
persons. If I don't agree with the strict definition they're using,
then I must create my own. The owners of the tag have the absolute
right to say 'you have used my tag incorrectly'
This allows that
FredericRamm:interesting != Gravitystorm:interesting=true
However - if at a later date it is decided that really
FredericRamm:interesting === Gravitystorm:interesting=true, then you
could do a number of different things
a) Store an equivalence (as SteveC was saying)
b) Perform a subsumation by renaming all FredericRamm:interesting tags
to Gravitystorm:interesting tags, provided the owners of them were
happy to do so.
c) Perform a subsumation by renaming all {FredericRamm:interesting,
Gravitystorm:interesting} tags into something else - maybe
osm:interesting.
That way everyone can have their own sandbox, AND groups that want to
standardise can do so, without dictatorship or anarchy.
I'm ok with that kind of leadership where everyone can choose for
himself by whom he wants to be led. I'm just not ok with A and B
choosing a leader and C then has to follow.
My impression is that nobody wants to force anyone to do anything -
But - where you have a 'global' tag namespace, there's substantial
overloading when there's disagreement as to the semantics involved.
___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Please
2009/10/2 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: Entirely depends on how useful your messages are, it's not a fixed limit. You'll know when you've gone well over when you are repeatedly called out on the mailing list, blog posts, parody pictures, twitter, IRC and direct emails all on the subject of you not knowing what you're talking about and/or that you are posting too often. Which is entirely subjective, and not helpful in the least. It's a social thing, not a logical rule, and unfortunately some people just don't get it. You mean that we can't talk on the talk mailing list, isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/2 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: I think you're on the wrong mailing list - this is the openstreetmap mailing list and that's not how we will ever do things. I thought this was anything goes, why are you dictating something can't be done? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation
The problem is as follows: You see an interpolation 25a to 25c. How do you know that this means 25a, 25b, 25c? You know by removing the number and then starting with the a go through code points adding one until you reach c. Easy. This will work for all alphabets where that are layed out in alphabetical order in Unicode, and they probably all are. (but thats an assumption on my part :-) Ouch. Unicode order has no meaning in the real world, and only really works for English (and not even then properly for subtle cases, like ligatures, not that these would ever be used in these kind of addresses). You need to know the lexical ordering, which means you need to know the language. Sometimes you can guess from the character, and two characters make it easier than one, but the problem doesn't go away with two - the null variant isn't central to this problem. There's also a cultural assumption about how you might do this in other countries. I've no idea how Chinese addresses are formulated normally - whether they even use digits, and if those digits are the arabic numerals - let alone what these exceptional cases might be. But IF you know it is Chinese and IF the scheme fits, with digits + Chinese Character, then the null case still works (Chinese characters still have a lexical ordering, I believe it has to do with the number of strokes, but any relationship to Unicode order is purely coincidental) So I'm coming round to the view that alphabetic should explicitly only mean only n nA nB ... nZ where you can start and end at any point in the sequence, and not even try to deal with other characters from other alphabets (not even other latin ones). Any other sequence from other cultures needs its own interpolation style or additional qualifying tag to identify it, just as we'd tag an email with the encoding. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool
The downside of J2ME (at least in the UK, where it rains a lot) is that the phones that it runs on tend not to be waterproof. There are various cases available, but they're not cheap. Maybe a complementary approach would be to have something that could work with GPX file from a handheld GPS (that doesn't mind getting wet or dropped) and add in notes later to the GPX XML based on waypoint number? In this case though you'd have to use hand written notes, or memory, anyway, which removes the need for the application really. It doesn't rain that often anyhow, not in my part of the UK anyway: at a guess, two thirds of all Saturdays and Sundays are dry, giving lots of viable surveying days :-) Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mobile countryside surveying tool
2009/10/2 Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk: In this case though you'd have to use hand written notes, or memory, anyway, which removes the need for the application really. Erm wouldn't notes get soggy and become less than useful also? It doesn't rain that often anyhow, not in my part of the UK anyway: at a guess, two thirds of all Saturdays and Sundays are dry, giving lots of viable surveying days :-) But TV tells us it always rains in the UK :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 10:26:11AM +0200, Peter Körner wrote: The problem is as follows: You see an interpolation 25a to 25c. How do you know that this means 25a, 25b, 25c? You know by removing the number and then starting with the a go through code points adding one until you reach c. Easy. This will work for all alphabets where that are layed out in alphabetical order in Unicode, and they probably all are. (but thats an assumption on my part :-) But, when you see an interpolation 25 to 25c. How do you know that this means 25, 25a, 25b, 25c? You again remove the number. That gives you the first entry. But what happens then? You count to the end of this interpolation-way (there are 4 nodes in, 1 is the start and 1 is the end, so 2 in between) and substract this number (2) from the last char (c). Following your assumptions from above this should work (when you can add 1 to go to the next char, you can also subtract 1 to go to the previous). This way you'll first get b and then a - those are the chars for your houses. No. The interpolation way has less nodes in it than houses. Thats the whole point of having an interpolation way. Otherwise you'd just use those nodes and tag them with the right house numbers and you are done. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
andrzej zaborowski balrogg at gmail.com writes: http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp * The first picture from every wikipedia page is displayed. As you will notice, this is not always such a good idea. Often the first picture is itself a map, and sometimes from OSM! It would be better to show the first non-map picture. That would either require Wikipedia to tag their images somehow, or require the script to guess which images look more like maps. There is certainly software which can distinguish photographs from line drawings. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Loading more than 10,000 GPS points in Potlatch...
...works now. It used not to. Silly mistake on my part. If you click the little GPS icon, it comes up with the first 10,000 points as per usual; click it again (without having panned/zoomed in the meantime), and it'll come up with the next 10,000; and so on. The count is reset when you pan somewhere else. I wouldn't usually spam the list for every little change but people keep asking me about this one. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Fix broken import via script - discussion
The user alex-map[1] did an import of data (without any comment in changeset or tags). I asked him were the data came from, end else if he would mind fixing them. The data has the following issues: A four side building got currently 5 points with two on the same location and the way is unclosed.[2] Tagging: LEVELS = 2.00 building = yes name = Building on every building. So on the one hand I doesn't think that every building has got 2 levels on the other hand the name isn't rightly set there. I asked him if he mind changing them according to proposials of the wiki to the following: according to proposial[3]: (if the floating point value is an integer) LEVELS=2.00 = building:levels=2 name=Building = building:use=residential The building is not named Building so this value isn't right here. to explain that this is imported data and is not reviewed till now add: reviewed=no if the licence say CC-By-Sa you have to add a author: source=geo-spatial.org Regards, Ruben [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/alex-map [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/32624151 [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Building_attributes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation
2009/10/2 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: No. The interpolation way has less nodes in it than houses. Thats the whole point of having an interpolation way. Otherwise you'd just use those nodes and tag them with the right house numbers and you are done. +1. Why not simply use explicit nodes/polygons for every house and you're done. Will be more accurate and faster to just do it instead of discussing possible/real problems with interpolation (which IMHO still is an intermediate step for explicit mapping). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation
On 02/10/2009 12:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2009/10/2 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: No. The interpolation way has less nodes in it than houses. Thats the whole point of having an interpolation way. Otherwise you'd just use those nodes and tag them with the right house numbers and you are done. +1. Why not simply use explicit nodes/polygons for every house and you're done. Will be more accurate and faster to just do it instead of discussing possible/real problems with interpolation (which IMHO still is an intermediate step for explicit mapping). Yahoo coverage is still very sparse. (And I have also never been able to get it to work since I installed Firefox 3.5). The surveying cost of collecting house numbers is an order of magnitude greater than doing streets/pois and doing every house without satellite coverage is another order of magnitude again as you have to collect locations for every single house. We can't really do polygons without satellite coverage. So while I agree having every house is a desirable solution I think it will be a very long time before this can be a reality other than in satellite coverage areas, and even then it will be a much slower process to relate house numbers to satellite images than to do GPS mapping. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fix broken import via script - discussion
His answer was that this is ok for him (if I understood him correctly). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
2009/10/2 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com: andrzej zaborowski balrogg at gmail.com writes: http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp * The first picture from every wikipedia page is displayed. As you will notice, this is not always such a good idea. Often the first picture is itself a map, and sometimes from OSM! It would be better to show the first non-map picture. That would either require Wikipedia to tag their images somehow, or require the script to guess which images look more like maps. There is certainly software which can distinguish photographs from line drawings. One problem is this would have to work in javascript, or be preprocessed on the server -- in the latter case there are more interesting things that we can do like use flickr geotagged pictures. Currently the heuristic is this: - ask wikipedia API for 5 first pictures, - if there is a picture in those 5 that is a .jpg or .png, use it. - otherwise use the first picture. This is because .svg are usually logos or graphs. Maybe jpg's should be preferred over png's because png's are more often computer drawn, things like maps :) Another idea is to have a left and right arrow button for next and previous pic. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
andrzej zaborowski balrogg at gmail.com writes: http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp * The first picture from every wikipedia page is displayed. It would be better to show the first non-map picture. That would either require Wikipedia to tag their images somehow, or require the script to guess which images look more like maps. One problem is this would have to work in javascript, or be preprocessed on the server -- in the latter case there are more interesting things that we can do like use flickr geotagged pictures. Hmm yes I don't fancy doing image analysis in Javascript. Maybe jpg's should be preferred over png's because png's are more often computer drawn, things like maps :) Yes I think that would be an improvement. You might also try biasing towards larger image sizes (either in dimensions or in disk space), since these are more likely to be photographs. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
2009/10/2 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:40 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: and you can have very big features (e.g. an extreme: atlantic ocean), or strangely shaped ones, where coordinates won't do the job (unless you give much more than just 1 pair), because the center would be off the object. There is something called bounding box where we use a pair of coordinates for such things. This is not a good argument to put url's in osm. And if you put an url on - let say - the relation representing the highway 66 in US, you will have any way to do some preprocessing to calculate the bounding box of this collection of ways. Yes, but that still doesn't link to specific entities, which is why it's useful to include URLs. See the description of Linked Data someone posted earlier in the thread. Again, all what is said about special rendering/highlighting/pointing/etc of objects with an url is valid for all web sites and not only wikipedia. I just want to say that if we accept that for wikipedia, we cannot refuse it for other web applications and this is opening the door to a bad practice. I don't really see why there's anything wrong with providing links to other site as well as wikipedia, as long as they are a useful reference point. For example, any POIs that I add that have a website, I'll link to that (it's also a good source to get their address and other useful information from, so it's good to list that as a source), or if there is another information site that has information about that thing where wikipedia doesn't (often due to the 'notability' restrictions), then I'll link to that instead. It all makes the dataset richer, and links the users of the data up with further information about that object. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Karran d...@karran.net www.dankarran.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Overlay showing wikipedia links
2009/9/30 andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com: seeing that features that get visualised in some form somewhere (e.g. on a slippymap on the web) get mapped more often than other features, I've set up an overlay that shows the External Links (proposal at [1]), most importantly links to wikipedia pages [2] directly from objects in OSM. It's at http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp (see caveats below). This is great to see the Wikipedia data being visualised.. nice work! In terms of interface, those circles can get in the way at times so it can be difficult to see what's under them, especially as they grow in size when you move your mouse near them. Also the display of areas can hide everything that's underneath them (e.g. on the Isle of Man), so perhaps they could be pushed to the back? Cheers, Dan -- Dan Karran d...@karran.net www.dankarran.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Multithread generate_tiles.py, generate_images.py and question about attribution.
Hello everyone. First of all, I want to share with my two scripts for Mapnik rendering. First is a modified version of generate_tiles.py to use multithread rendering. Second is a modified generate_image.py to generate large bitmap posters like [1,2]. It uses tiled rendering so it's possible to render very large areas with high DPI. Only limitation is that whole poster must fit into computer's memory during merging and texts drawing because I don't know any image rendering library which can draw to memory mapped files or such. See scripts' code and comments or ask for detailed information. Seconly, I would like to ask how should I properly extend an OpenStreetMap attribution on the [1,2] to include my name and to mention an OpenTrackMap project [3]. Could you give me an advice about this? Thank you in advance. [1] - http://blackhex.no-ip.org/raw-attachment/wiki/Files/poster_preview.png - OpenTrackMap poster, scaled down to 25% (13.4 MB) [2] - http://blackhex.no-ip.org/raw- attachment/wiki/Files/poster_small_preview.png - OpenTrackMap poster, scaled down to 10% (2.4 MB) [3] - http://opentrackmap.no-ip.org/ - OpenTrackMap project homepage. -- Ing. Radek Bartoň Faculty of Information Technology Department of Computer Graphics and Multimedia Brno University of Technology E-mail: black...@post.cz Web: http://blackhex.no-ip.org Jabber: black...@jabber.cz #!/usr/bin/python # -*- coding: utf-8 -*- # # Generates a single large PNG image for a UK bounding box # Tweak the lat/lon bounding box (ll) and image dimensions # to get an image of arbitrary size. # # To use this script you must first have installed mapnik # and imported a planet file into a Postgres DB using # osm2pgsql. # # Note that mapnik renders data differently depending on # the size of image. More detail appears as the image size # increases but note that the text is rendered at a constant # pixel size so will appear smaller on a large image. from math import pi,cos,sin,log,exp,atan from mapnik import * import sys, os if __name__ == __main__: # Use Mapnik template from MAPNIK_MAP_FILE environment variable or osm.xml # file. try: map_file = os.environ['MAPNIK_MAP_FILE'] except KeyError: map_file = osm.xml # Configuration options poster_filename = poster.png # Name of output PNG file. lonlat_bottom_left = Coord(12.10, 48.55) # Bottom-left corner of area of interest in Lon/Lat coordinates. lonlat_top_right = Coord(18.86, 51.06) # Top-right corner of area of interest in Lon/Lat coordinates. x_size = 14040 # A0 width at 300 DPI y_size = 9930 # A0 height at 300 DPI #x_size = 28080 # A0 width at 600 DPI #y_size = 19860 # A0 height at 600 DPI x_parts = 8 # Number of tiles in x-direction. y_parts = 8 # Number of tile in y-direction overlap = 32 # Number of pixels of tile's overlapping. borders = (400, 600, 400, 800) # Left, bottom, right and top white border of the poster. frame_line_width = 10 # Line width of frame around map. title = OpenStreetMap - CTC Hiking Tracks Network - 30 September 2009 # Text of a title on the top. title_font_size = 300 # Font size of the title. title_offset = 700 # Offset of title bottom from the top of the poster. attribution = \302\251 OpenStreetMap contributors (http://www.openstreetmap.org/), CC-BY-SA # Text of an attribtuion on the bottom. attribution_font_size = 100 # Font size of the attribution, attribution_offset = 400 # Offset of attribution bottom from the bottom of the poster. # Compute image size for map. x_size = x_size - borders[0] - borders[2] y_size = y_size - borders[1] - borders[3] # Compute rendered area size in target projection. projection = Projection(+proj=merc +a=6378137 +b=6378137 +lat_ts=0.0 +lon_0=0.0 +x_0=0.0 +y_0=0 +k=1.0 +units=m +nadgri...@null +no_defs +over) target_bottom_left = projection.forward(lonlat_bottom_left) target_top_right = projection.forward(lonlat_top_right) # Modify area to respect aspect ratio of image. image_aspect = x_size / float(y_size) target_center = Coord((target_bottom_left.x + target_top_right.x) * 0.5, (target_bottom_left.y + target_top_right.y) * 0.5) target_width = target_top_right.x - target_bottom_left.x target_height = target_top_right.y - target_bottom_left.y target_aspect = target_width / float(target_height) if image_aspect target_aspect: target_bottom_left.x = target_center.x - (target_height * image_aspect * 0.5) target_top_right.x = target_center.x + (target_height * image_aspect * 0.5) else: target_bottom_left.y = target_center.y - (target_width / image_aspect * 0.5) target_top_right.y = target_center.y + (target_width / image_aspect * 0.5) # Update target dimensions. target_width = target_top_right.x - target_bottom_left.x target_height = target_top_right.y - target_bottom_left.y target_aspect = target_width
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
Andy Allan wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:38 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: There is one small problem with this suggestion, if most new users are invited to join this and other lists and the number of users are increasing at an exponential rate the number of messages will go up at an equal or greater rate, then what? Then the people who are mailing more than their fair share of posts will be asked to post less often. Hopefully they will realise that every time they post to the list it's delivered to 1,000s of others I'm fully aware of the consequences of my actions Alan, however, It leads me to ask: Only Thousands? Why so few? There are many other forums (Microsoft's on Usenet for example) where there can be hundreds (thousands?) of posts per day. I don't see anyone there whinging (yes, whinging) about the throughput. They get used to it. and they should keep their contributions under control. I'm not going to be criticised for partaking in a forum that I can either learn from, or give advice in. I'm at a loss to understand why, in a forum titled Talk, there are some who criticise others for, er... talking. There is a /clue /in the title! If you want to reduce the traffic to just /your /inbox do so by setting your email client up to ignore/block/mute/filter etc. It's what those filters are there for. The programmers spent a lot of energy creating them for people like you. Please learn to use them No one is forced to read or reply to the messages. If there was no desire to reply to the thread(s), they would have ground to halt. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
Andy Allan wrote: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 6:46 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/2 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: Then the people who are mailing more than their fair share of posts will be asked to post less often. Hopefully they will realise that every time they post to the list it's delivered to 1,000s of others and they should keep their contributions under control. What exactly is this magical limit of fair share? Entirely depends on how useful your messages are, it's not a fixed limit. You'll know when you've gone well over when you are repeatedly called out on the mailing list, blog posts, parody pictures, twitter, IRC and direct emails all on the subject of you not knowing what you're talking about The reason I use these forums /is /because I /don't know/ what I'm talking about so I ask questions to find the solutions!! and/or that you are posting too often. It's a social thing, not a logical rule, and unfortunately some people just don't get it. I find it ironic that I keep on being told it's OPENstreetmap, where anything goes with the use of free form tags etc yet get flamed for upsetting the sensibilities of someone by posting a few messages!! My posts weren't defamatory, abusive, racist or sexist. There were just there, harmless. Another irony, this is the most irrelevant, off topic thread in this forum.shakes head Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Different people can then experiment with different approaches to produce consistent datasets tailored to their own needs. They don't need to be proprietary - in fact, given the number of people around here talking about it I'd have hoped someone would have stepped up and produced a tailored dataset by now. Cheers, Andy Like tagging highway=path bicycle=yes instead of highway=cycleway? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Please
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009, Dave F. wrote: and/or that you are posting too often. It's a social thing, not a logical rule, and unfortunately some people just don't get it. I find it ironic that I keep on being told it's OPENstreetmap, where anything goes with the use of free form tags etc yet get flamed for upsetting the sensibilities of someone by posting a few messages!! My posts weren't defamatory, abusive, racist or sexist. There were just there, harmless. I was considering asking the question If we have an anarchic OpenStreetMap from where did the permission come for certain persons to be the moral guardians of the list? To make this quite clear to those who don't speak English as a first language There are people on this mailing list who not only are prolific writers, but their opinions are not those of some others. These people have been targeted on list and with private mail telling them to cease writing to this list because its for important stuff / something else. No-one has any rights to dictate what happens on this list. We have been recently told that the project doesn't have an benevolent dictator, so there is no-one to delegate power to determine what is written on this list. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 01/10/09 04:14, Russ Nelson wrote: I'm tired of this silly true/false 1/0 yes/no up/down left/right in/out fore/aft port/starboard debate/debacle. It's trivial, it's stupid, we could just as easily toss a coin as engage in any rational debate about how binary values should be expressed. This is just wrong. If SteveC says that mountain=green means that first there is a mountain, and that mountain=blue means there is no mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way. +2 :-) Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 01/10/09 04:26, John Smith wrote: I still like Shaun's idea of a committee We really, really need a committee to decide what values we are going to standardize for binary true and false? If that's true, we are doomed. How on earth are we going to make any difficult decisions stick? Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 01/10/09 10:40, Frederik Ramm wrote: If we have open issues in the community that we cannot find a good solution to, then the reason for this is not that we simply lack a good Führer who tells us what is right and what is wrong; Frederik, I may be entering dangerous waters here, but I'm wondering if this comment of yours reveals quite a lot. You need to distinguish between good leadership and bad leadership. Good leadership sometimes tells people to do things they don't agree with. Calling all such leadership Nazi is not productive. I'm now wondering whether it's a coincidence that you work for yourself rather than for someone else :-) Good leadership is not the same as makes decisions Frederik agrees with. Good leadership is not the same as only making decisions which are easy because everyone agrees. Good leadership is leadership which furthers the mission of the organization. If Steve said that green and blue were the correct database values for true and false, then I'd write five lines of translation code for JOSM which meant it showed up in the JOSM UI as true and false, and then I would be very thankful that the decision had been made and all the automated scripts I'd written to use OSM data didn't have to check for 21 different values of false any more. And I'd accept his decision on the basis that any decision, in this case, is better than no decision, and that I trust him to have good reasons for making it the way he did. Having said that, I am also pretty sure he wouldn't say that. it is because these issues are difficult and the community is perhaps divided about it. We do not need anybody to make a decision in these cases; that doesn't help at all. No, it's precisely what we need. things simpler. It seems that you would prefer a wrong decision over no decision at all - but why do we need decisions at all? If there are issues where the community cannot make up their mind, can you not just live with that and arrange your technology in a way to deal with that? Because that way lies misery and code complexity. More examples from the Mozilla project: if one vocal group want something one way, and another vocal group want something the other way in Firefox, the _worst_ thing you can do is make it a preference so that both sides can have what they want. That just makes everyone's life more difficult, because there are now two code paths to test and maintain. Multiply this up by a number of decisions and you get complexity explosion. If I were considering using OSM data in my business, I would consider it laughable that after 5 years there had not yet been a decision on what value or small set of values I needed to look for on boolean attributes to see whether they were true or false. Laughable. Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] shop=groceries?
I notices few days ago user farlokko changed many shop=groceries into shop=greengrocer worldwide. The changeset is http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2562959 I think this change is wrong, at least for most nodes in czech republic - I know about nodes that I've added and only small part (perhaps one out of ten) of them are actually greengrocers, according to my knowledge. Most of them are ordinary grocery stores. Some of them even have no or very little selection of fruit and vegetables. The greengrocer is shop that sells fruits and vegetables (in czech language usually called Ovoce a zelenina) and no other type of food - according to what is at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgreengrocer and what would the name suggest. The groceries (I found shop=groceries at rejected features, though it was widely used, JOSM has it in presets, etc ..) should be used for shops selling general food (not only fruit and vegetables), but that do not sell anything other than food (like shop=convenience) and are small (so shop=supermarked won't fit to them) - at least this is what I think. In czech these are called Potraviny, or Večerka if they have closing time very late in night. So the question is how to tag shops selling only food that are small? Should shop=groceries be used (and perhaps somehow added to map features or proposed features, or some other tag should be used? And should that changeset that converted shop=groceries into shop=greengrocer be reverted? Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 02/10/09 10:10, Andy Allan wrote: The alternative to forcing arbitrary rules of consistency on our volunteers is to acknowledge that OSM is in fact inconsistently tagged, and chill out about the whole thing. Different people can then experiment with different approaches to produce consistent datasets tailored to their own needs. They don't need to be proprietary - in fact, given the number of people around here talking about it I'd have hoped someone would have stepped up and produced a tailored dataset by now. There's a giant assumption behind this, and that is that the information necessary to produce a tailored and consistent dataset has been preserved. Say there was an Andy Allan scheme of tagging which rated highways from 1 (biggest) to 10 (smallest). There's also a Gervase Markham scheme of tagging which rates them from 1 (smallest) to 10 (biggest). How does one produce a consistent data set out of that, without knowing the preferences of every OSM member as to whether they use Andy Allan tagging or Gervase Markham tagging? This example is obviously extreme to make the point, which is this: unless there is agreement on what the values mean for particular keys, information is lost which cannot be retrieved. If one person's highway=tertiary is another person's highway=unclassified, then what do you do? Gerv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shop=groceries?
MP wrote: I notices few days ago user farlokko changed many shop=groceries into shop=greengrocer worldwide. The changeset is http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2562959 I think this change is wrong, at least for most nodes in czech republic - I know about nodes that I've added and only small part (perhaps one out of ten) of them are actually greengrocers, according to my knowledge. Most of them are ordinary grocery stores. Some of them even have no or very little selection of fruit and vegetables. The greengrocer is shop that sells fruits and vegetables (in czech language usually called Ovoce a zelenina) and no other type of food - according to what is at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgreengrocer and what would the name suggest. The groceries (I found shop=groceries at rejected features, though it was widely used, JOSM has it in presets, etc ..) should be used for shops selling general food (not only fruit and vegetables), but that do not sell anything other than food (like shop=convenience) and are small (so shop=supermarked won't fit to them) - at least this is what I think. In czech these are called Potraviny, or Večerka if they have closing time very late in night. So the question is how to tag shops selling only food that are small? Should shop=groceries be used (and perhaps somehow added to map features or proposed features, or some other tag should be used? And should that changeset that converted shop=groceries into shop=greengrocer be reverted? It looks as though farlokko has reverted some (maybe all) back to shop=groceries. Cheers, Chris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shop=groceries?
2009/10/2 MP singular...@gmail.com: I notices few days ago user farlokko changed many shop=groceries into shop=greengrocer worldwide. The changeset is http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2562959 This has been noted on IRC, I think some reverted changes in their area, but nobody got around to reverting the whole changeset. I think this change is wrong, at least for most nodes in czech republic - I know about nodes that I've added and only small part (perhaps one out of ten) of them are actually greengrocers, according to my knowledge. Most of them are ordinary grocery stores. Some of them even have no or very little selection of fruit and vegetables. The greengrocer is shop that sells fruits and vegetables (in czech language usually called Ovoce a zelenina) and no other type of food - according to what is at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgreengrocer and what would the name suggest. Correct The groceries (I found shop=groceries at rejected features, though it was widely used, JOSM has it in presets, etc ..) should be used for shops selling general food (not only fruit and vegetables), but that do not sell anything other than food (like shop=convenience) and are small (so shop=supermarked won't fit to them) - at least this is what I think. In czech these are called Potraviny, or Večerka if they have closing time very late in night. Again, I agree. I have no idea why groceries should be in rejected features. It seems it got sidelined there in the abandoned section in 2007. There is no reason for it to be on the rejected page, indeed, if it is widely used, why not just approve it due to precedence? If it's used, and a default in the editors, it can hardly be rejected. And what about the long standing shop=* definition? So the question is how to tag shops selling only food that are small? Should shop=groceries be used (and perhaps somehow added to map features or proposed features, or some other tag should be used? Seems reasonable. And should that changeset that converted shop=groceries into shop=greengrocer be reverted? The changeset in question broke data. It unilaterally changed the definition of ~200 shops. It should be reverted. -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Gervase Markham schrieb: On 01/10/09 04:26, John Smith wrote: I still like Shaun's idea of a committee We really, really need a committee to decide what values we are going to standardize for binary true and false? If that's true, we are doomed. How on earth are we going to make any difficult decisions stick? I guess you were absent from the list, the wiki and the OSM data for at least a year or so ... ;-) The funny thing is, most of the decisions are actually not difficult. But, as we have no decision making process, we are doomed to make the decisions again and again and again - unfortunately each time probably with a different result. Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shop=groceries?
Chris Hill wrote: It looks as though farlokko has reverted some (maybe all) back to shop=groceries. Not all (at least not yet): http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/160590737/history ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shop=groceries?
It looks as though farlokko has reverted some (maybe all) back to shop=groceries. Some, but not all. I reverted all greengrocers from that changeset back to groceries in Czech republic, in all cases where the shop name does not suggest it is actually a greengrocer (names like Ovoce - zelenina, etc ...) I have not touched nodes outside Czech republic (approx. half of the nodes was inside Czech. rep.) as I am not familiar with types of shops abroad. These may perhaps still need some fixing. Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/2 Gervase Markham gerv-gm...@gerv.net: If I were considering using OSM data in my business, I would consider it laughable that after 5 years there had not yet been a decision on what value or small set of values I needed to look for on boolean attributes to see whether they were true or false. Laughable. If it is so bad why is there a complete refusal to actually do anything other than write emails to the list? Just start making the decisions and build the thing on top of OSM. It wouldn't even be that difficult to start off. Just take planet.osm and strip unapproved tags and build up from there. Who knows, you might even be able to get an account on the dev server to do it on. If it is a genuine improvement for people using the data it should not be that hard to get people involved and using it. It's obvious now that this isn't going to just appear within OSM one day. It will have to be built up along side at least until it is shown to be an improvement. That's if it even needs to be part of OSM at all. If mapnic can run off the planet and diffs why couldn't this? -- DavidD ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Gerv, Gervase Markham wrote: I may be entering dangerous waters here, but I'm wondering if this comment of yours reveals quite a lot. Before I discuss the contents of your message, a quick word about style: It may be your way to try and understand a conversation by looking not at what has been said, but at who said it and what that might reveal about their personal situation, upbringing, education, employment or other circumstances. I'm used to this from previous discussions in which you participiated, but I still don't find it (morally or intellectually) acceptable to talk about what you think a posting reveals about its author. This is off-topic and useless at best, insulting at worst, and reflects poorly on your intellectual ability to engage in factual discourse. You need to distinguish between good leadership and bad leadership. Good leadership sometimes tells people to do things they don't agree with. Because the leader is the intellectual visionary and the sheep cannot be expected to have the information or the intellectual capacity to understand. Yes, that is true with many religious, political, or business leaders of past and present. More examples from the Mozilla project Frankly, I think it may be a mistake to try an apply experience from the Mozilla project to OSM. I think there are vast differences between our projects on various levels, and it would be wrong to say well they're both large projects to do with computers so they must be somehow the same. I agree that if you write a piece of software, it makes sense to make UI decisions and give your software a certain character instead of trying to be all kinds to all people. If I were with the Firefox development team, I'd also tend to say: Ok, let's do it *this* way and if people don't like it, let them choose another browser. rather than make Firefox into some kind of browser development environment. I just don't think this is a lesson that can be transferred to OSM in a meaningful way. If I were considering using OSM data in my business, I would consider it laughable that after 5 years there had not yet been a decision on what value or small set of values I needed to look for on boolean attributes to see whether they were true or false. Laughable. On the face of it, this true/false thing is really not a big deal and we would be truly stupid to waste so much time discussing it. Even the hardcore freeform tagging people, among whom I count myself, would not suffer if, for some reason, there was only true/false to choose from for boolean values. What we're seeing here is a discussion about a *principle*. We're not discussing about the individual question of whether boolean values should be restrained to two values. Behind the scenes linger the much lager questions of: * who has the power to decide which values are allowed for a certain tag? who would decree that oneway is boolean? * how is that codified in our software? * how is that codified in our social structures (votes, elections, who is allowed how many votes, who decides who has how many votes and how does the appeal process work)? * what happens if someone thinks they need an exemption from the rule? * what is the balance of power between mapper and user interests in OSM? * ... I continue to think that calling for a strong leader to make a decision is seeking the easy way out (just as easy a way out as the oh well let's just add a user preference way out in application design). I think that this often amounts to a kind of unreflected it has always been this way in the world so it will be the same with OSM attitude. I think it is a big challenge to try and remain the open project we are and all these we just need someone to make a decision so we can move on issues are temptations allowing us to take a wrong turn. There may really be a few cases where we just need to make a decision and move on but I think that every single one of them has to be very carefully worked out and debated, rather than summarily deferred to a strong leader who has the ultimate say. We have, time and time again, debated tagging rules. Some people, including you, tirelessly (well, more or less) campaigned for stricter rules, with a tight voting system and all. Others, including me, were of the laissez-faire disposition. I think that if some people devised a set of tagging rules or recommendations and laid it out in a structured way, including rules on how to create, discuss, amend the definitions, there would really be demand for that inside OSM. Many people would use that set of recommendations and participate in its development. If desired, those adhering to that set of recommendations could put something on their OSM user page saying this user adheres to the tagging committee rules. Bots could be put up that take anything edited by these people and fix it if it doesn't match the rules they say they follow. These rules could of
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I really do encourage you and all those calling for leadership to get together, form your own advisory board or tagging committee or whatever, create the structures you think are required, and then offer them for voluntary use by the community. +1. Get on with it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Jukka Rahkonen writes: You seem to believe that SteveC would make such a decision that makes you happy. How about if he says that if you want people to continue working with OSM in creative, productive, or unexpected ways then true/false, yes/no, and 0/1 issue must be tolerated. That's okay, too. What I want, what I REALLY want, is for SteveC to be able to exercise leadership without being told that he's evil for doing so. There's a set of people who feel that mappers shouldn't be given guidance, because if they accidentally don't follow it, they'll feel bad and might stop mapping. But there's also a set of mappers who are editing because they want to create the best map possible. We change true and 1 to yes when we edit something. And we want to know what is the proper way to mark a road as having no name. Going to the wiki and finding nine different schemes (none of which are supported by the Noname renderer) is not helpful. I'm 100% in favor of freedom. I'm 100% in favor of free-form tagging. But I'm also 100% in favor of guidance from experienced editors. Oh, to hell with it. I'll just mark the damned road noname=yes, and if you find a road with no name and YOU mark it noname=yes, then good for you. And if not, then I don't have to cooperate with you either. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 03/10/2009, at 7:02 AM, Gervase Markham wrote: More examples from the Mozilla project: if one vocal group want something one way, and another vocal group want something the other way in Firefox, the _worst_ thing you can do is make it a preference so that both sides can have what they want. That just makes everyone's life more difficult, because there are now two code paths to test and maintain. Multiply this up by a number of decisions and you get complexity explosion. That mostly works because you're talking about code, not paragraphs of description of what a tag means. If they're knowledgeable enough to figure it out, two people reading a chunk of code should come up the same idea of what it does, which doesn't happen with tag descriptions. If a tagging overlord who happens to be English writes a description of a tag, I can pretty much guarantee that some native English speakers from another country (e.g. Australia or the US) will read it a different way, or people who have English as a second language will rad it a different way. If we wanted to go the tagging-committee route, I think that voting people on to it is the wrong things to do. Geographical and cultural diversity is much more important than how many votes you get, otherwise you'll end up with a group that doesn't include large potions of the world. If I were considering using OSM data in my business, I would consider it laughable that after 5 years there had not yet been a decision on what value or small set of values I needed to look for on boolean attributes to see whether they were true or false. Laughable. As people pointed out the true/yes/1 things isn't really what we're arguing about, it's the principle of how we decide things. What does forest mean, or residential, in a global sense that can be explained to everyone? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Frederik said All this is possible *within* the existing OSM framework and without any strong leader telling us where to go. I really do encourage you and all those calling for leadership to get together, form your own advisory board or tagging committee or whatever, create the structures you think are required, and then offer them for voluntary use by the community. This is likely to result in several insular communities. In particular I am considering that au mappers would write a tight set of guidelines for mapping and, as an example, we wouldn't have to worry about residential vs unclassified in rural areas for any other country - we would define our own strategy and stick to it. If Au does that, and the Argentinians make their own set of preferences, and other groups do the same, we will have a project with multiple forks. I don't really want to split the project, but if it becomes the only way to peace it will happen by itself. Liz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Gervase Markham writes: Good leadership is not the same as makes decisions Frederik agrees with. Good leadership is not the same as only making decisions which are easy because everyone agrees. Good leadership is leadership which furthers the mission of the organization. +1 -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Russ Nelson wrote: Dave F. writes: This is just wrong. If SteveC says that mountain=green means that first there is a mountain, and that mountain=blue means there is no mountain, then damnit, we should do it that way. Sheesh, has Donovan lost all his currency? Oh my Lord, you've completely missed the point. Errr, no, I agree with you. Just a Yes or No - Did you receive my personal email? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 10:57 AM, ed...@billiau.net wrote: Frederik said All this is possible *within* the existing OSM framework and without any strong leader telling us where to go. I really do encourage you and all those calling for leadership to get together, form your own advisory board or tagging committee or whatever, create the structures you think are required, and then offer them for voluntary use by the community. This is likely to result in several insular communities. In particular I am considering that au mappers would write a tight set of guidelines for mapping and, as an example, we wouldn't have to worry about residential vs unclassified in rural areas for any other country - we would define our own strategy and stick to it. If Au does that, and the Argentinians make their own set of preferences, and other groups do the same, we will have a project with multiple forks. I don't really want to split the project, but if it becomes the only way to peace it will happen by itself. I think we are quite capable of (voluntarily) collaboration across country borders without needing an authority figure to enforce it. Frederik's point is valid - if you want a tagging committee/working group/whatever, start one. If you want an international tagging committee, start one. If it's better than the current arrangement, mappers will flock to it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Liz, ed...@billiau.net wrote: This is likely to result in several insular communities. In particular I am considering that au mappers would write a tight set of guidelines for mapping and, as an example, we wouldn't have to worry about residential vs unclassified in rural areas for any other country - we would define our own strategy and stick to it. In general, I think that this is a good thing. You know best how to deal with roads in .au; you know what *you* need to map to make the data useful for you - and not some tagging committee from England which tries to accommodate Argentinia as well. If I, as a tourist, should visit Australia, would I prefer a map made by a world-wide consortium who tries to streamline every national idiosyncracy into their scheme, or would I prefer a map made by locals? I think that's one of the great strengths of OSM that we have the local knowledge on our side. I have often said, and do so again, that regional diversity is not necessarily a bad thing and certainly not something that needs to be eradicated for the sake of conformism - it can be dealt with on another layer (for example the likeness thing that Steve recently mentioned). If there is a possible problem with my suggestion then that would not regional tagging differences, but various schools of tagging evolving and being used in one and the same area. But I think that would sort itself out come time and anyway, we're not even there yet. If Au does that, and the Argentinians make their own set of preferences, and other groups do the same, we will have a project with multiple forks. No, just regional diversity. I would somewhat expect the Australian tourist, out of respect, to not apply their home tagging rules when they map in Argentinia, but have a look around and do as the locals do. (As most of us, I am sure, already do today!) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Frederik Ramm wrote: On the face of it, this true/false thing is really not a big deal and we would be truly stupid to waste so much time discussing it. Frederik, why can't you understand? The problem is /not /about the differences between True/False, but the *similarities* between True/Yes/1. It's VERY simple. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Roy Wallace writes: I think we are quite capable of (voluntarily) collaboration across country borders without needing an authority figure to enforce it. Good! Collaborate on this and remove 8 of 9 proposals: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Noname I'm not holding my breath. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 10/3/09, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Jukka Rahkonen writes: You seem to believe that SteveC would make such a decision that makes you happy. How about if he says that if you want people to continue working with OSM in creative, productive, or unexpected ways then true/false, yes/no, and 0/1 issue must be tolerated. That's okay, too. What I want, what I REALLY want, is for SteveC to be able to exercise leadership without being told that he's evil for doing so. i agree - there's nothing constructive about ad-hominem attacks. if steve wants to breed dinosaur-spider-monkeys in the privacy of his own home, that's noone's business but his. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BauW170B.jpg There's a set of people who feel that mappers shouldn't be given guidance, because if they accidentally don't follow it, they'll feel bad and might stop mapping. this is a nonsense straw man. But there's also a [non-disjoint] set of mappers who are editing because they want to create the best map possible. there's also a set of people who feel that mappers are perfectly able to judge for themselves which guidance is worth following and which isn't. this set is a subset of those who want to create the best map possible. We change true and 1 to yes when we edit something. And we want to know what is the proper way to mark a road as having no name. Going to the wiki and finding nine different schemes (none of which are supported by the Noname renderer) is not helpful. are you suggesting that the best way forward is for some authority to decree that there is One True Way of tagging noname roads and forcing all mappers, editors and renderers to support it? it might be helpful if the wiki documented the guidance of experienced mappers, rather than the free-for-all of half-baked ideas that it seems to have become. I'm 100% in favor of freedom. I'm 100% in favor of free-form tagging. But I'm also 100% in favor of guidance from experienced editors. then why suggest placing any one person in an exalted leadership position? guidance from experienced editors - we've got lots of that, and sometimes they disagree. assuming that people can't make judgements of their own about these issues is patronising. Oh, to hell with it. I'll just mark the damned road noname=yes, and if you find a road with no name and YOU mark it noname=yes, then good for you. And if not, then I don't have to cooperate with you either. if mappers tag the way they feel is best and the tool authors (i.e: nonames layer) consume the tags in the way they feel is best then the two will converge, as long as everyone keeps an open mind and refrains from childish antagonism. cheers, matt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Russ Nelson wrote: There's a set of people who feel that mappers shouldn't be given guidance, because if they accidentally don't follow it, they'll feel bad and might stop mapping. But there's also a set of mappers who are editing because they want to create the best map possible. Russ, whilst I agree with you about guidance, I'm unsure why you feel the three groups of people you describe above are disparate. Surely they are all out to (hopefully) create the best map? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 02/10/2009, at 7:12 PM, Nigel Magnay wrote: That's fine, so long as the tags themselves are namespaced. Otherwise, just as now, the semantics get confused. I.E, It should be the case that if I tag as FredericRamm:interesting=true Going this route is really just reinventing XML, without the advantages of actually being XML (e.g. tooling, schemas). For example: node id=123 ... tag k=FredericRamm:interesting v=true/ /node versus: node id=123 ... xmlns:f=http://osm.org/users/FredericRamm; f:interestingtrue/f:interesting /node Not that I'm saying we should go that route, but if we want to start namespacing everything, we might as well do it properly. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Liz, ed...@billiau.net wrote: This is likely to result in several insular communities. In particular I am considering that au mappers would write a tight set of guidelines for mapping and, as an example, we wouldn't have to worry about residential vs unclassified in rural areas for any other country - we would define our own strategy and stick to it. In general, I think that this is a good thing. You know best how to deal with roads in .au; you know what *you* need to map to make the data useful for you - and not some tagging committee from England which tries to accommodate Argentinia as well. If I, as a tourist, should visit Australia, would I prefer a map made by a world-wide consortium who tries to streamline every national idiosyncracy into their scheme, or would I prefer a map made by locals? I think that's one of the great strengths of OSM that we have the local knowledge on our side. I have often said, and do so again, that regional diversity is not necessarily a bad thing and certainly not something that needs to be eradicated for the sake of conformism - it can be dealt with on another layer (for example the likeness thing that Steve recently mentioned). If there is a possible problem with my suggestion then that would not regional tagging differences, but various schools of tagging evolving and being used in one and the same area. But I think that would sort itself out come time and anyway, we're not even there yet. If Au does that, and the Argentinians make their own set of preferences, and other groups do the same, we will have a project with multiple forks. No, just regional diversity. I would somewhat expect the Australian tourist, out of respect, to not apply their home tagging rules when they map in Argentinia, but have a look around and do as the locals do. (As most of us, I am sure, already do today!) Bye Frederik I'm just a regular old mapper, but it's my humble opinion that the data in the database must be consistent across the whole database. If different regions want to use the map for different purposes, display different tags, etc then they can apply their localization when they create their map. Otherwise there's no way for applications (routing and otherwise) to know how to work across the whole globe. This also allows me or anyone else to use and/or edit data anywhere in the world without having to know 1500+ different local tagging schemes. -Jeremy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Sat, October 3, 2009 10:56, Russ Nelson wrote: Roy Wallace writes: I think we are quite capable of (voluntarily) collaboration across country borders without needing an authority figure to enforce it. Good! Collaborate on this and remove 8 of 9 proposals: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Noname I think this (the noname thing) is a non-issue and I would remove 9 of 9 proposals. Furthermore I would not add a 10th. The wiki page states there needs to be a way to record that the absence of a name tag is not a flaw in OpenStreetMap. I assert that there does *not* need to be a way to do this. If you see a street on the map with no name displayed you might think one of two things: 1) The street has no name (and you might hum a tune by U2) 2) The street has a name but it has not been recorded Either way, it doesn't matter. If I am a map user then I can not intuit whether the name is missing, or there just isn't one. If there should be a name it's too bad. I can't do anything about it. In particular, if it's a street I'm looking for then I will be frustrated if I later learn that the unnamed street was the one I wanted, but again, it's too bad. If I am a map maker then I know whether or not the street has a name, because I've been there and seen it. I can look at the map and see that this street has no name, but I know that it does. So I will edit the data to make it right. This also covers the case where the name is wrong, or misspelled. IMHO a map maker should periodically survey areas they are familiar with to ensure that /what they know/ is actually recorded or is still correctly recorded on the map. They also need to trust other map makers that whatever is on the map is true and correct and complete (for achievable values of true, correct and complete). A map user has to take the information in the map on trust too. However, he or she must always be aware that there may be errors or oversights, or that things in real life change and the map doesn't reflect that immediately. To blindly follow the information on a map would be foolish. Map users should also be encouraged to become map makers (even if only indirectly through OpenStreetBugs for example) if they discover such discrepancies. There is only a flaw if you know there is a flaw. If *you know* something to be wrong you can fix it. If you don't know something is wrong then you should leave it and assume it is correct. If you start to suspect the map then you will go mad. In summary, the price of accuracy is eternal vigilance. Or something like that. I don't expect to extinguish the noname debate with my argument, but I do think it is a non-issue. Andrew PS I apologise if you now have a U2 tune in your head. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 03/10/2009, at 12:53 PM, Jeremy Adams wrote: If different regions want to use the map for different purposes, display different tags, etc then they can apply their localization when they create their map. It's not so much that there are different uses, but a lot of the assumptions and hidden implications in tags aren't the same. A lot of the tags are a bit Europe-centric because that's where OSM started, and where a lot of the mappers are. I'm not blaming anyone in Europe for this, it's just how it's developed. As such, people in other regions often take liberties with what the descriptions on the wiki, and historical consensus, to fit them to the local area. If we want to have globally consistent tags across the world, we're probably going to have to go and modify a bunch of core tags that are extensively used everywhere. Like whether highway=* is a physical or importance thing, and what it actually implies. As I understand it, it's used consistently within some countries as the former, and used consistently within other countries as the latter. Either we have it not being globally consistent (see the International Equivalence table), or half the world will need to change. Otherwise there's no way for applications (routing and otherwise) to know how to work across the whole globe. They're always going to have to know local quirks. From the discussion a while ago about highway=residential, I got the impression that in Europe is has a semi-implied access=destination for the purposes of routing - that is, you shouldn't drive down a residential one unless you have to, because they're very thin. In Australia, we have a lot of residential roads that are wide enough for four cars (one parked and one lane, either way, so driving down random residential streets isn't uncommon. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
Matt Amos writes: forcing all mappers, editors and renderers to support it? Why do people keep saying that I want to use force? From where do they get this idea? Have I ever suggested the use of force? Gun, knife, sword, empty hand? Rejection of ill-formed tags at the API? Please, quote me on it if you think I have. if mappers tag the way they feel is best and the tool authors (i.e: nonames layer) consume the tags in the way they feel is best then the two will converge, Let me propose an alternative course of events which is less desirable: Anyone who asks how to mark a road as having no name is told that there is no consensus. They might get sent to the Wiki page on it. That page gives no advice or too much advice. The mapper takes no action. The database has no tags, the tool authors don't implement any of them because the data isn't there, and the issue doesn't converge. I point to the +1 year age of the Noname proposal and recent inactivity and suggest that convergance isn't happening. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Noname I suggest instead that in cases such as these, SteveC should bless one of them with his Holy Water of Antioch (and the number of the tags shall be 3, no more and no less). His blessing will tip the stable disconvergance in one direction. But for him to be able to do that, we need to not be throwing the sheep or Furher word around just because some people are trying to lead and others are trying to follow. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 03/10/2009, at 1:16 PM, Andrew Errington wrote: If I am a map maker then I know whether or not the street has a name, because I've been there and seen it. I can look at the map and see that this street has no name, but I know that it does. So I will edit the data to make it right. This also covers the case where the name is wrong, or misspelled. Provided you like somewhere that has all of the streets names, yes. If you live somewhere that has large swathes of unnamed (or completely unmapped) streets, then it certainly makes a difference. I could go drive somewhere to get that street name, but then find out it doesn't have one. Next week, someone else who lives nearby can go drive there to check the street name, and find there isn't one. If we can record the fact it hasn't got one, we could all spend more time doing areas that aren't mapped properly, rather than re-checking the same places again. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 03/10/2009, at 1:24 PM, Russ Nelson wrote: I suggest instead that in cases such as these, SteveC should bless one of them with his Holy Water of Antioch (and the number of the tags shall be 3, no more and no less). His blessing will tip the stable disconvergance in one direction. For cases where it's something like picking a value from yes/true/1 or key from that list, sure. They all mean the same thing, and for the most part it's easy to change. I'd be less inclined to have one person, or the Ministry of Tagging, to use argument-by-authority is there was actual contention about what the tag actually means, as in some other discussions. Those ones really need consensus, or you'll get groups of people (or whole countries) ignoring the authoritative decision, and actually changing existing use is much more complicated. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009, Jeremy Adams wrote: On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Liz, ed...@billiau.net wrote: This is likely to result in several insular communities. In particular I am considering that au mappers would write a tight set of guidelines for mapping and, as an example, we wouldn't have to worry about residential vs unclassified in rural areas for any other country - we would define our own strategy and stick to it. In general, I think that this is a good thing. You know best how to deal with roads in .au; you know what *you* need to map to make the data useful for you - and not some tagging committee from England which tries to accommodate Argentinia as well. If I, as a tourist, should visit Australia, would I prefer a map made by a world-wide consortium who tries to streamline every national idiosyncracy into their scheme, or would I prefer a map made by locals? I think that's one of the great strengths of OSM that we have the local knowledge on our side. I have often said, and do so again, that regional diversity is not necessarily a bad thing and certainly not something that needs to be eradicated for the sake of conformism - it can be dealt with on another layer (for example the likeness thing that Steve recently mentioned). If there is a possible problem with my suggestion then that would not regional tagging differences, but various schools of tagging evolving and being used in one and the same area. But I think that would sort itself out come time and anyway, we're not even there yet. If Au does that, and the Argentinians make their own set of preferences, and other groups do the same, we will have a project with multiple forks. No, just regional diversity. I would somewhat expect the Australian tourist, out of respect, to not apply their home tagging rules when they map in Argentinia, but have a look around and do as the locals do. (As most of us, I am sure, already do today!) Bye Frederik I'm just a regular old mapper, but it's my humble opinion that the data in the database must be consistent across the whole database. If different regions want to use the map for different purposes, display different tags, etc then they can apply their localization when they create their map. Otherwise there's no way for applications (routing and otherwise) to know how to work across the whole globe. This also allows me or anyone else to use and/or edit data anywhere in the world without having to know 1500+ different local tagging schemes. -Jeremy I'm not in favour of a fork - I'm in favour of a consistent schema. There are significant regional differences and no means yet to deal with those within the multiple flavours of English spoken throughout the world. Spanish speakers will have similar troubles adapting translations of different things. Motel is an example of a word in use in different places with quite distinct meanings. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/3 Gervase Markham gerv-gm...@gerv.net: On 01/10/09 04:26, John Smith wrote: I still like Shaun's idea of a committee We really, really need a committee to decide what values we are going to standardize for binary true and false? No we need a committee to decide upon a core set of values that people should use where possible instead of naming the same thing 10 different ways, the argument over boolean values just highlights the point. For example, a ford in Australia is a causeway, yet they are the same thing, just known by different people as different names. If we take a programming language as an example, we usually don't have duplicate function names to do the same thing, except PHP seems to break this rule. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/3 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: I think we are quite capable of (voluntarily) collaboration across country borders without needing an authority figure to enforce it. You do if you want a consistent data set. Frederik's point is valid - if you want a tagging committee/working group/whatever, start one. If you want an international tagging committee, start one. If it's better than the current arrangement, mappers will flock to it. No they won't, they'll think their idea is better and you'll end up with 250 or more ways of doing the same thing. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/3 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: I'm not in favour of a fork - I'm in favour of a consistent schema. There are significant regional differences and no means yet to deal with those within the multiple flavours of English spoken throughout the world. Spanish speakers will have similar troubles adapting translations of different things. Motel is an example of a word in use in different places with quite distinct meanings. The bigger issue here is, without consistent tagging people will eventually end up writing bots to fix something in their country and destroy the value of data in another country by accident. This has already happened with ABS data in Australia, someone thought they were doing the right thing by splitting long ways and moving tags to a relation, instead this ended up causing other people more work to revert the changes they've made. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/3 Jeremy Adams mile...@king-nerd.com: I'm just a regular old mapper, but it's my humble opinion that the data in the database must be consistent across the whole database. If different regions want to use the map for different purposes, display different tags, etc then they can apply their localization when they create their map. Otherwise there's no way for applications (routing and otherwise) to know how to work across the whole globe. +1 This also allows me or anyone else to use and/or edit data anywhere in the world without having to know 1500+ different local tagging schemes. At this stage without intervention that's exactly where things are headed, and even encouraged by some. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] 2009 TIGER Shapefiles now available
Released October 1, 2009 http://www.census.gov/geo/www/tiger/tgrshp2009/tgrshp2009.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On 2 Oct 2009, at 21:06 , John Smith wrote: You do if you want a consistent data set. And what if I don't want? There are 1000s of mappers and not everyone thinks like you and agrees with you. If you can't accept so much freedom it's your problem not mine or theirs. there are many things I don't like in osm, but I am free to change it because it's free and open or I can learn that others had better ideas and accept it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/3 Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com: On 2 Oct 2009, at 21:06 , John Smith wrote: You do if you want a consistent data set. And what if I don't want? There are 1000s of mappers and not everyone thinks like you and agrees with you. If you can't accept so much freedom it's your problem not mine or theirs. there are many things I don't like in osm, but I am free to change it because it's free and open or I can learn that others had better ideas and accept it. And so we'll end up with a database not with better map data but with a completely inconsistent kludge that won't be of any use to anyone beyond their local area... So people will just keep using commercial data and not bother with OSM because it's more hassle than it's worth, in turn no one will bother contributing because they can simply do an overlay on top of google data so they get a consistent set of map tiles... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: On 2 Oct 2009, at 21:06 , John Smith wrote: You do if you want a consistent data set. And what if I don't want? There are 1000s of mappers and not everyone thinks like you and agrees with you. If you can't accept so much freedom it's your problem not mine or theirs. there are many things I don't like in osm, but I am free to change it because it's free and open or I can learn that others had better ideas and accept it. I think muddling up this argument with 'freedom' doesn't advance it one bit. I do note that others had better ideas was placed next to accept as if you are rejecting an idea belonging to someone else, who is hereby advised just to accept it. Instead, could you (Apollinaris) tell us the arguments *against* a consistent data set? Liz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: 2009/10/3 Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com: On 2 Oct 2009, at 21:06 , John Smith wrote: You do if you want a consistent data set. And what if I don't want? There are 1000s of mappers and not everyone thinks like you and agrees with you. If you can't accept so much freedom it's your problem not mine or theirs. there are many things I don't like in osm, but I am free to change it because it's free and open or I can learn that others had better ideas and accept it. And so we'll end up with a database not with better map data but with a completely inconsistent kludge that won't be of any use to anyone beyond their local area... So people will just keep using commercial data and not bother with OSM because it's more hassle than it's worth, in turn no one will bother contributing because they can simply do an overlay on top of google data so they get a consistent set of map tiles... Actually apart from bots what happens if you get 2 or more people in the immediate area that prescribe to different tagging schemes, will there be anything but an edit war as a result? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk-nl] wandeling op terschelling en taggingsprobleempjes
Hallo, Ik was twee jaar geleden ook al ingeschreven op deze lijst, maar zag dat ik er vanaf gehaald waarschijnlijk vanwege non-activiteit. Ik ben zo vrij geweest mijzelf weer in te schrijven en neem mij voor dit keer wel aktief te gaan worden. Ik heb de afgelopen weken een klein diepteinvesterinkje gedaan om mijn gereedschappen voor OSM een beetje op orde te krijgen. Het rammelt allemaal nog wel behoorlijk, maar ik heb ondertussen wat ervaringen opgedaan en het lijkt me zowaar zonder al teveel 'gedoe' te lukken. Ik wil mijn oude plan/idee om mijn wandelpassie te combineren met OSM- werk de komende tijd weer oppakken. Het idee is om me te beperken tot het taggen van recreatieve wegen en paden, die voor de avontuurlijke wandelaar interessant (kunnen) zijn. Ik had hier twee jaar geleden al eens opzetje hiervoor gemaakt in de wiki, die ik met mijn eigen ervaringen verder wil gaan aanvullen/aanpassen: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Recreatieve_paden_wegen Afgelopen week ben ik een paar dagen op Terschelling geweest waar ik al wat paden heb getagd. Ik had mijn Asus EEE bij me en heb in mijn tentje in JOSM de door mij gelopen paden en tracks aangebracht. Het werken met JOSM op de EEE vond ik verbazend eenvoudig gaan. Maar ik had wel wat moeite met het vinden van de juiste tags, temeer omdat ik een internetverbinding mistte om de wiki te kunnen raadplegen. Gisteren heb ik thuis de zaak afgemaakt en geupload naar OSM. De resultaten van de wandeling staan op mijn website: http://www.landloper.org/2008/10/taggingprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ook heb ik een artikeltje gemaakt over een aantal taggingproblemen die ik tegen kwam: http://www.landloper.org/2009/10/taggingsprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ik ben zo vrij geweest om een aantal onverharde wegen die als highway=tertiary waren ingetekend om te zetten naar highway=track. Dit waren of wegen die niet toegankelijk waren voor gemotoriseerd verkeer of doodliepen op een plek zonder bebouwing. Het lijkt me dat een tertiary road toch in ieder geval ergens heen moet gaan. Verder kwam ik een duidelijk track tegen die was afgezet met een schapenhek terwijl volgens de bordjes van Staatsbosbeheer sprake is van 'Vrij wandelen'. Ik heb het betreffende track toch ingetekend, omdat ik denk dat dit hek niet bedoeld is om wandelaars tegen te houden, maar geiten binnen. Ik hoor graag als er opmerkingen zijn over mijn tagging-methodes. Vriendelijke groet, Rik - Not all those who wander are lost http://www.landloper.org ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] wandeling op terschelling en taggingsprobleempjes
2009/10/2 Rik de Landloper r...@the-quickest.com: Ik was twee jaar geleden ook al ingeschreven op deze lijst, maar zag dat ik er vanaf gehaald waarschijnlijk vanwege non-activiteit. Ik ben zo vrij geweest mijzelf weer in te schrijven en neem mij voor dit keer wel aktief te gaan worden. Ik ben niet betrokken bij het beheer van deze lijst, maar het lijkt me sterk dat inactiviteit een probleem is. Als je eraf bent gehaald, is dat vermoed ik omdat je email-adres tijdelijk niet werkte (b.v. een mailbox die een aantal weken achter elkaar 'vol' is). Afgelopen week ben ik een paar dagen op Terschelling geweest waar ik al wat paden heb getagd. Ik had mijn Asus EEE bij me en heb in mijn tentje in JOSM de door mij gelopen paden en tracks aangebracht. Het werken met JOSM op de EEE vond ik verbazend eenvoudig gaan. Maar ik had wel wat moeite met het vinden van de juiste tags, temeer omdat ik een internetverbinding mistte om de wiki te kunnen raadplegen. Gisteren heb ik thuis de zaak afgemaakt en geupload naar OSM. De resultaten van de wandeling staan op mijn website: http://www.landloper.org/2008/10/taggingprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ook heb ik een artikeltje gemaakt over een aantal taggingproblemen die ik tegen kwam: http://www.landloper.org/2009/10/taggingsprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ik ben zo vrij geweest om een aantal onverharde wegen die als highway=tertiary waren ingetekend om te zetten naar highway=track. Dit waren of wegen die niet toegankelijk waren voor gemotoriseerd verkeer of doodliepen op een plek zonder bebouwing. Het lijkt me dat een tertiary road toch in ieder geval ergens heen moet gaan. Dat is een algemeen probleem van de AND-data, waarop de Nederlandse kaart grotendeels gebaseerd is: Alle wegen buiten de bebouwde kom zijn als 'tertiary' of hoger aangegeven. Vele daarvan zouden moeten worden omgezet naar 'unclassified'. Daar het hier een onverharde weg betrof, is inderdaad 'track' aangewezen. Eventueel kun je met 'tracktype' nog wat preciezer aangeven wat voor soort weg het is. -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] wandeling op terschelling en taggingsprobleempjes
Hallo en welkom terug! Het lijkt me raar dat je zomaar van de lijst gehaald bent in principe mag je idelen wat je wil ;) Maar je voornemen om actief deel te nemen is sowieso goed! Super dat je alle avontuurlijke paden er ook in gaat zetten! Kan erg interessant zijn. Mocht je ook wandelroutes lopen dan kunnen die er uiteraard ook in! Leuke blog posts, is het iets om een account voor je te regelen op blog.openstreetmap.nl zodat je daar al je bevindingen op kan schrijven en ze voor de OSM-ers iets toegankelijker zijn? Groet, --Roeland On Friday 02 October 2009 15:16:49 Rik de Landloper wrote: Hallo, Ik was twee jaar geleden ook al ingeschreven op deze lijst, maar zag dat ik er vanaf gehaald waarschijnlijk vanwege non-activiteit. Ik ben zo vrij geweest mijzelf weer in te schrijven en neem mij voor dit keer wel aktief te gaan worden. Ik heb de afgelopen weken een klein diepteinvesterinkje gedaan om mijn gereedschappen voor OSM een beetje op orde te krijgen. Het rammelt allemaal nog wel behoorlijk, maar ik heb ondertussen wat ervaringen opgedaan en het lijkt me zowaar zonder al teveel 'gedoe' te lukken. Ik wil mijn oude plan/idee om mijn wandelpassie te combineren met OSM- werk de komende tijd weer oppakken. Het idee is om me te beperken tot het taggen van recreatieve wegen en paden, die voor de avontuurlijke wandelaar interessant (kunnen) zijn. Ik had hier twee jaar geleden al eens opzetje hiervoor gemaakt in de wiki, die ik met mijn eigen ervaringen verder wil gaan aanvullen/aanpassen: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Recreatieve_paden_wegen Afgelopen week ben ik een paar dagen op Terschelling geweest waar ik al wat paden heb getagd. Ik had mijn Asus EEE bij me en heb in mijn tentje in JOSM de door mij gelopen paden en tracks aangebracht. Het werken met JOSM op de EEE vond ik verbazend eenvoudig gaan. Maar ik had wel wat moeite met het vinden van de juiste tags, temeer omdat ik een internetverbinding mistte om de wiki te kunnen raadplegen. Gisteren heb ik thuis de zaak afgemaakt en geupload naar OSM. De resultaten van de wandeling staan op mijn website: http://www.landloper.org/2008/10/taggingprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ook heb ik een artikeltje gemaakt over een aantal taggingproblemen die ik tegen kwam: http://www.landloper.org/2009/10/taggingsprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ik ben zo vrij geweest om een aantal onverharde wegen die als highway=tertiary waren ingetekend om te zetten naar highway=track. Dit waren of wegen die niet toegankelijk waren voor gemotoriseerd verkeer of doodliepen op een plek zonder bebouwing. Het lijkt me dat een tertiary road toch in ieder geval ergens heen moet gaan. Verder kwam ik een duidelijk track tegen die was afgezet met een schapenhek terwijl volgens de bordjes van Staatsbosbeheer sprake is van 'Vrij wandelen'. Ik heb het betreffende track toch ingetekend, omdat ik denk dat dit hek niet bedoeld is om wandelaars tegen te houden, maar geiten binnen. Ik hoor graag als er opmerkingen zijn over mijn tagging-methodes. Vriendelijke groet, Rik - Not all those who wander are lost http://www.landloper.org ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] wandeling op terschelling en taggingsprobleempjes
een paar van je problemen kun je oplossen/verbeteren met tracktype: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tracktype voor die doorwaadbare plek zou je misschien een tracktype=grade5 er op kunnen zetten. of misschien een bridge=no ??? is het kreekje ook getagged? groet, floris Rik de Landloper wrote: Hallo, Ik was twee jaar geleden ook al ingeschreven op deze lijst, maar zag dat ik er vanaf gehaald waarschijnlijk vanwege non-activiteit. Ik ben zo vrij geweest mijzelf weer in te schrijven en neem mij voor dit keer wel aktief te gaan worden. Ik heb de afgelopen weken een klein diepteinvesterinkje gedaan om mijn gereedschappen voor OSM een beetje op orde te krijgen. Het rammelt allemaal nog wel behoorlijk, maar ik heb ondertussen wat ervaringen opgedaan en het lijkt me zowaar zonder al teveel 'gedoe' te lukken. Ik wil mijn oude plan/idee om mijn wandelpassie te combineren met OSM- werk de komende tijd weer oppakken. Het idee is om me te beperken tot het taggen van recreatieve wegen en paden, die voor de avontuurlijke wandelaar interessant (kunnen) zijn. Ik had hier twee jaar geleden al eens opzetje hiervoor gemaakt in de wiki, die ik met mijn eigen ervaringen verder wil gaan aanvullen/aanpassen: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Recreatieve_paden_wegen Afgelopen week ben ik een paar dagen op Terschelling geweest waar ik al wat paden heb getagd. Ik had mijn Asus EEE bij me en heb in mijn tentje in JOSM de door mij gelopen paden en tracks aangebracht. Het werken met JOSM op de EEE vond ik verbazend eenvoudig gaan. Maar ik had wel wat moeite met het vinden van de juiste tags, temeer omdat ik een internetverbinding mistte om de wiki te kunnen raadplegen. Gisteren heb ik thuis de zaak afgemaakt en geupload naar OSM. De resultaten van de wandeling staan op mijn website: http://www.landloper.org/2008/10/taggingprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ook heb ik een artikeltje gemaakt over een aantal taggingproblemen die ik tegen kwam: http://www.landloper.org/2009/10/taggingsprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ik ben zo vrij geweest om een aantal onverharde wegen die als highway=tertiary waren ingetekend om te zetten naar highway=track. Dit waren of wegen die niet toegankelijk waren voor gemotoriseerd verkeer of doodliepen op een plek zonder bebouwing. Het lijkt me dat een tertiary road toch in ieder geval ergens heen moet gaan. Verder kwam ik een duidelijk track tegen die was afgezet met een schapenhek terwijl volgens de bordjes van Staatsbosbeheer sprake is van 'Vrij wandelen'. Ik heb het betreffende track toch ingetekend, omdat ik denk dat dit hek niet bedoeld is om wandelaars tegen te houden, maar geiten binnen. Ik hoor graag als er opmerkingen zijn over mijn tagging-methodes. Vriendelijke groet, Rik - Not all those who wander are lost http://www.landloper.org ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] wandeling op terschelling en taggingsprobleempjes
Hallo, Bedankt voor jullie reakties. Ik stel voor dat ik eerst de komende weken/maanden mijn actief worden waar ga maken voordat er een blog voor me op openstreetmap wordt gemaakt, die vervolgens leeg blijft. Maar het idee spreekt me zeker aan. Groet, Rik On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:38 +0200, Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com wrote: Hallo en welkom terug! Het lijkt me raar dat je zomaar van de lijst gehaald bent in principe mag je idelen wat je wil ;) Maar je voornemen om actief deel te nemen is sowieso goed! Super dat je alle avontuurlijke paden er ook in gaat zetten! Kan erg interessant zijn. Mocht je ook wandelroutes lopen dan kunnen die er uiteraard ook in! Leuke blog posts, is het iets om een account voor je te regelen op blog.openstreetmap.nl zodat je daar al je bevindingen op kan schrijven en ze voor de OSM-ers iets toegankelijker zijn? Groet, --Roeland On Friday 02 October 2009 15:16:49 Rik de Landloper wrote: Hallo, Ik was twee jaar geleden ook al ingeschreven op deze lijst, maar zag dat ik er vanaf gehaald waarschijnlijk vanwege non-activiteit. Ik ben zo vrij geweest mijzelf weer in te schrijven en neem mij voor dit keer wel aktief te gaan worden. Ik heb de afgelopen weken een klein diepteinvesterinkje gedaan om mijn gereedschappen voor OSM een beetje op orde te krijgen. Het rammelt allemaal nog wel behoorlijk, maar ik heb ondertussen wat ervaringen opgedaan en het lijkt me zowaar zonder al teveel 'gedoe' te lukken. Ik wil mijn oude plan/idee om mijn wandelpassie te combineren met OSM- werk de komende tijd weer oppakken. Het idee is om me te beperken tot het taggen van recreatieve wegen en paden, die voor de avontuurlijke wandelaar interessant (kunnen) zijn. Ik had hier twee jaar geleden al eens opzetje hiervoor gemaakt in de wiki, die ik met mijn eigen ervaringen verder wil gaan aanvullen/aanpassen: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Recreatieve_paden_wegen Afgelopen week ben ik een paar dagen op Terschelling geweest waar ik al wat paden heb getagd. Ik had mijn Asus EEE bij me en heb in mijn tentje in JOSM de door mij gelopen paden en tracks aangebracht. Het werken met JOSM op de EEE vond ik verbazend eenvoudig gaan. Maar ik had wel wat moeite met het vinden van de juiste tags, temeer omdat ik een internetverbinding mistte om de wiki te kunnen raadplegen. Gisteren heb ik thuis de zaak afgemaakt en geupload naar OSM. De resultaten van de wandeling staan op mijn website: http://www.landloper.org/2008/10/taggingprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ook heb ik een artikeltje gemaakt over een aantal taggingproblemen die ik tegen kwam: http://www.landloper.org/2009/10/taggingsprobleempjes-op-terschelling.html Ik ben zo vrij geweest om een aantal onverharde wegen die als highway=tertiary waren ingetekend om te zetten naar highway=track. Dit waren of wegen die niet toegankelijk waren voor gemotoriseerd verkeer of doodliepen op een plek zonder bebouwing. Het lijkt me dat een tertiary road toch in ieder geval ergens heen moet gaan. Verder kwam ik een duidelijk track tegen die was afgezet met een schapenhek terwijl volgens de bordjes van Staatsbosbeheer sprake is van 'Vrij wandelen'. Ik heb het betreffende track toch ingetekend, omdat ik denk dat dit hek niet bedoeld is om wandelaars tegen te houden, maar geiten binnen. Ik hoor graag als er opmerkingen zijn over mijn tagging-methodes. Vriendelijke groet, Rik - Not all those who wander are lost http://www.landloper.org ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl - Not all those who wander are lost http://www.landloper.org ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] wandeling op terschelling en taggingsprobleempjes
Super, Je hebt mail ;) Groet, --Roeland On Friday 02 October 2009 16:04:21 Rik de Landloper wrote: Hallo, Bedankt voor jullie reakties. Ik stel voor dat ik eerst de komende weken/maanden mijn actief worden waar ga maken voordat er een blog voor me op openstreetmap wordt gemaakt, die vervolgens leeg blijft. Maar het idee spreekt me zeker aan. Groet, Rik On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:38 +0200, Roeland Douma u...@rullzer.com wrote: Hallo en welkom terug! Het lijkt me raar dat je zomaar van de lijst gehaald bent in principe mag je idelen wat je wil ;) Maar je voornemen om actief deel te nemen is sowieso goed! Super dat je alle avontuurlijke paden er ook in gaat zetten! Kan erg interessant zijn. Mocht je ook wandelroutes lopen dan kunnen die er uiteraard ook in! Leuke blog posts, is het iets om een account voor je te regelen op blog.openstreetmap.nl zodat je daar al je bevindingen op kan schrijven en ze voor de OSM-ers iets toegankelijker zijn? Groet, --Roeland On Friday 02 October 2009 15:16:49 Rik de Landloper wrote: Hallo, Ik was twee jaar geleden ook al ingeschreven op deze lijst, maar zag dat ik er vanaf gehaald waarschijnlijk vanwege non-activiteit. Ik ben zo vrij geweest mijzelf weer in te schrijven en neem mij voor dit keer wel aktief te gaan worden. Ik heb de afgelopen weken een klein diepteinvesterinkje gedaan om mijn gereedschappen voor OSM een beetje op orde te krijgen. Het rammelt allemaal nog wel behoorlijk, maar ik heb ondertussen wat ervaringen opgedaan en het lijkt me zowaar zonder al teveel 'gedoe' te lukken. Ik wil mijn oude plan/idee om mijn wandelpassie te combineren met OSM- werk de komende tijd weer oppakken. Het idee is om me te beperken tot het taggen van recreatieve wegen en paden, die voor de avontuurlijke wandelaar interessant (kunnen) zijn. Ik had hier twee jaar geleden al eens opzetje hiervoor gemaakt in de wiki, die ik met mijn eigen ervaringen verder wil gaan aanvullen/aanpassen: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Recreatieve_paden_wegen Afgelopen week ben ik een paar dagen op Terschelling geweest waar ik al wat paden heb getagd. Ik had mijn Asus EEE bij me en heb in mijn tentje in JOSM de door mij gelopen paden en tracks aangebracht. Het werken met JOSM op de EEE vond ik verbazend eenvoudig gaan. Maar ik had wel wat moeite met het vinden van de juiste tags, temeer omdat ik een internetverbinding mistte om de wiki te kunnen raadplegen. Gisteren heb ik thuis de zaak afgemaakt en geupload naar OSM. De resultaten van de wandeling staan op mijn website: http://www.landloper.org/2008/10/taggingprobleempjes-op-terschelling.ht ml Ook heb ik een artikeltje gemaakt over een aantal taggingproblemen die ik tegen kwam: http://www.landloper.org/2009/10/taggingsprobleempjes-op-terschelling.h tml Ik ben zo vrij geweest om een aantal onverharde wegen die als highway=tertiary waren ingetekend om te zetten naar highway=track. Dit waren of wegen die niet toegankelijk waren voor gemotoriseerd verkeer of doodliepen op een plek zonder bebouwing. Het lijkt me dat een tertiary road toch in ieder geval ergens heen moet gaan. Verder kwam ik een duidelijk track tegen die was afgezet met een schapenhek terwijl volgens de bordjes van Staatsbosbeheer sprake is van 'Vrij wandelen'. Ik heb het betreffende track toch ingetekend, omdat ik denk dat dit hek niet bedoeld is om wandelaars tegen te houden, maar geiten binnen. Ik hoor graag als er opmerkingen zijn over mijn tagging-methodes. Vriendelijke groet, Rik - Not all those who wander are lost http://www.landloper.org ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl - Not all those who wander are lost http://www.landloper.org ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] wandeling op terschelling en taggingsprobleempjes
een paar van je problemen kun je oplossen/verbeteren met tracktype: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tracktype voor die doorwaadbare plek zou je misschien een tracktype=grade5 er op kunnen zetten. of misschien een bridge=no ??? is het kreekje ook getagged? highway=ford tag op intersection? ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] OSM op T-Dose
Op 28 september 2009 12:53 heeft Henk Hoff h...@toffehoff.nl het volgende geschreven: Aankomend weekend vindt de jaarlijkse T-Dose plaats in Eindhoven. T-DOSE is a free and yearly event held in The Netherlands to promote use and development of Open Source Software. Er is een presentatie van OpenStreetMap op de zondag. Daarnaast is er een presentatiestand voor OpenStreetMap aanwezig. Ik ben daarbij aanwezig. Mocht je er ook bij (willen) zijn, kom gerust even langs. vanuit opengeo wilden we ook present zijn dacht ik dus als het goed is kom ik zondag met de quadcopter / easystar langs Rob ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] OSM op T-Dose
Rob wrote: Op 28 september 2009 12:53 heeft Henk Hoff h...@toffehoff.nl het volgende geschreven: Aankomend weekend vindt de jaarlijkse T-Dose plaats in Eindhoven. T-DOSE is a free and yearly event held in The Netherlands to promote use and development of Open Source Software. Er is een presentatie van OpenStreetMap op de zondag. Daarnaast is er een presentatiestand voor OpenStreetMap aanwezig. Ik ben daarbij aanwezig. Mocht je er ook bij (willen) zijn, kom gerust even langs. vanuit opengeo wilden we ook present zijn dacht ik dus als het goed is kom ik zondag met de quadcopter / easystar langs Rob ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl Zal mooi zijn om jullie nog eens in actie te zien, vond de korte 'demo' op SOTM best indrukwekkend. Ik zal er zelf ook twee dagen zijn, en mijn 'map-materiaal' meebrengen. Als het nodig is kan ik eventueel de stand mee helpen bemannen (wil wel enkele presentaties zien). Ik kijk er al naar uit van een aantal mensen nog eens te ontmoeten. Tot morgen of zondag! Groetjes, Peter 'Toi' Leemans ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] OSM op T-Dose
We zijn morgen ook bij de HCC dag in Apeldoorn. Trouwens, leuk feestje bij Kennisland hier ;) Stefan Op 2 okt 2009 om 20:41 heeft Peter Leemans pe...@bist2.be het volgende geschreven:\ Rob wrote: Op 28 september 2009 12:53 heeft Henk Hoff h...@toffehoff.nl het volgende geschreven: Aankomend weekend vindt de jaarlijkse T-Dose plaats in Eindhoven. T-DOSE is a free and yearly event held in The Netherlands to promote use and development of Open Source Software. Er is een presentatie van OpenStreetMap op de zondag. Daarnaast is er een presentatiestand voor OpenStreetMap aanwezig. Ik ben daarbij aanwezig. Mocht je er ook bij (willen) zijn, kom gerust even langs. vanuit opengeo wilden we ook present zijn dacht ik dus als het goed is kom ik zondag met de quadcopter / easystar langs Rob ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl Zal mooi zijn om jullie nog eens in actie te zien, vond de korte 'demo' op SOTM best indrukwekkend. Ik zal er zelf ook twee dagen zijn, en mijn 'map-materiaal' meebrengen. Als het nodig is kan ik eventueel de stand mee helpen bemannen (wil wel enkele presentaties zien). Ik kijk er al naar uit van een aantal mensen nog eens te ontmoeten. Tot morgen of zondag! Groetjes, Peter 'Toi' Leemans ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
[talk-au] Apple buys google maps competitor...
Apple has quietly bought up a mapping company that competes with google. http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/10/01/apple_purchased_google_maps_competitor_placebase_report.html ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New CC-BY datasets due Monday 28 September on Government 2.0 Taskforce website
On 30/09/2009, at 10:25 PM, Emilie Laffray wrote: I really like to see the vegetation cover and the forest!! What are they? Shapefiles? If they are shapefiles, they come with their own projection files and therefore can be easily converted into another coordinate using ST_Transform inside Postgis. At least some of them can be converted with shp2osm[0]. I converted the World Heritage Area file on my machine, and just uploaded one of the areas[1]. Does it look okay to people? If so, I'll go ahead and do the rest of the WHA data. I also added a note to the new data.australia.gov.au wiki page[2] that Hugh created. [0] http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/import/shp2osm/shp2osm.pl [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2709838 [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Data.australia.gov.au_projects ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New CC-BY datasets due Monday 28 September on Government 2.0 Taskforce website
2009/10/2 James Livingston doc...@mac.com: areas[1]. Does it look okay to people? If so, I'll go ahead and do the rest of the WHA data. With the current tags you've used it probably won't render, since it's a national park you're going to get into the whole is it natural=wood, or landuse=forest type debate, I think both get rendered as a green shaded area... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New CC-BY datasets due Monday 28 September on Government 2.0 Taskforce website
On 02/10/2009, at 8:42 PM, John Smith wrote: 2009/10/2 James Livingston doc...@mac.com: With the current tags you've used it probably won't render, since it's a national park you're going to get into the whole is it natural=wood, or landuse=forest type debate, I think both get rendered as a green shaded area... The Maria Island NP (http://osm.org/go/uIcw8R7-) seems to render with a boundary=national_park multipolygon. Assuming that it doesn't need to be on a multipolygon relation if it can be done as a closed way, I would imagine it should work. Google's satellite imagery would suggest that that NP had a dearth of trees, so natural=wood or natural=forest wouldn't really be appropriate. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New CC-BY datasets due Monday 28 September on Government 2.0 Taskforce website
2009/10/2 James Livingston doc...@mac.com On 30/09/2009, at 10:25 PM, Emilie Laffray wrote: I really like to see the vegetation cover and the forest!! What are they? Shapefiles? If they are shapefiles, they come with their own projection files and therefore can be easily converted into another coordinate using ST_Transform inside Postgis. At least some of them can be converted with shp2osm[0]. I converted the World Heritage Area file on my machine, and just uploaded one of the areas[1]. Does it look okay to people? If so, I'll go ahead and do the rest of the WHA data. I also added a note to the new data.australia.gov.au wiki page[2] that Hugh created. By the way, I apologize that I haven't been able to try converting some of the files. I have been swamped by work. If people wants to try, they will want to use gdal_polygonize. @John Regarding tags, when we worked on the Corine import in France, we set up a page on the wiki where people were making their suggestions. We then had a small debate on what was better and then we voted. When it was too tight on terms of vote, it was one benevolent leader that ended up choosing which tags we would be going with or not. I am not saying that it is the way to go with all the new data that you have but it is one way of proceeding once you are done analyzing all the data that you have obtained. And no, I am trying to preach anything here. I am just explaining how we proceeded on the French mailing list. It took us several months to end up completing the upload. And it is still uploading. Emilie Laffray ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New CC-BY datasets due Monday 28 September on Government 2.0 Taskforce website
2009/10/2 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: Regarding tags, when we worked on the Corine import in France, we set up a page on the wiki where people were making their suggestions. We then had a small debate on what was better and then we voted. When it was too tight on terms of vote, it was one benevolent leader that ended up choosing which tags we would be going with or not. I am not saying that it is the way to go with all the new data that you have but it is one way of proceeding once you are done analyzing all the data that you have obtained. I'm not suggesting I had the right tags, I was just pointing out it didn't appear to render for me, and a possible solution. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New CC-BY datasets due Monday 28 September on Government 2.0 Taskforce website
On 02/10/2009, at 8:50 PM, Emilie Laffray wrote: Regarding tags, when we worked on the Corine import in France, we set up a page on the wiki where people were making their suggestions. We then had a small debate on what was better and then we voted. Indeed, hence my I've uploaded a polygon, what do people think post :) Since the WHA data is relatively simple (16 areas, although some are multiolygon) I figured I just upload one and see what people thought. If anyone think there are missing tags, or I've done it wrong, feel free to edit it. And no, I am trying to preach anything here. I am just explaining how we proceeded on the French mailing list. It took us several months to end up completing the upload. And it is still uploading. I imagine we'd be doing much the same for any of the more complicated datasets, like the QLD castradal data ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] BTC mapper (Live POI uploader) launch event
The previous video was accidentally deleted, here's a new link to the video that should work once it's finished processing the upload: http://vimeo.com/6860509 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Bird watching spots
This weekend I think I'll be checking out some local bird watching spots http://rankinssprings.googlepages.com/home so does anyone have any ideas on tagging bird watching spots and hides? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Magpie nesting and swooping areas
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 8:33 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: It shouldn't be too hard to hack up a quick db that can do a layer over the top, I think people were suggesting to put this info directly into OSM but that may over kill a simpler DB can do the same thing in the same way as the crime db does. FWIW, this via lifehacker: http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2009/10/magpie-attack-hotspots-map-helps-you-avoid-those-evil-birds/ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New CC-BY datasets due Monday 28 September on Government 2.0 Taskforce website
On 02/10/2009, at 9:01 PM, John Smith wrote: Might have to be a multipolygon, I just can't get it to render at all if I tell mapnik the tiles are dirty. I've just changed it over to be a multipolygon relation - if that works, I'll go file a bug against the renderer. A forest in the UK doesn't have to have trees, it was a hunting area... Arguably that's landuse= not natural= then, but let's not start that argument here. In any case, many of the National Parks don't have significant numbers of trees (e.g. that one, or the Barrier Reef), and for those that do the NP boundary isn't where the trees start and stop. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
