date:20111215


Continued from a talk@osm thread, as suggested by Mikel Maron.

When I use high-resolution imagery to improve areas formerly mapped from 
low-resolution imagery, I change the source tag on the objects I touch - 
i.e. from Yahoo low resolution satellite to Microsoft Bing 
satellite. Since my edit is correlated with a change of source, can it 
still be considered as a tainted derivative ?


Modifying a way mapped from low-resolution imagery to take advantage of 
high-resolution imagery changes it so much that the result barely takes 
advantage of the previous version. It does take advantage of the fact 
that the object exists, which makes the work somewhat easier (except 
maybe in dense areas where it can even make it more complicated) - is 
that enough to make it a derivative work unable to be migrated under the 
new license ? That improvement process is rather close to a remapping... 
Or should I just remap ?


What is the opinion the experts on legal-talk ?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Are objects still tainted when they are edited from a better source ?

2011-12-15 Thread Dermot McNally

On 15 December 2011 15:17, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote:

 When I use high-resolution imagery to improve areas formerly mapped from
 low-resolution imagery, I change the source tag on the objects I touch -
 i.e. from Yahoo low resolution satellite to Microsoft Bing satellite.
 Since my edit is correlated with a change of source, can it still be
 considered as a tainted derivative ?

What you describe seems to me a reasonable argument for considering
the _geometry_ clean. In particular, many of us are strongly of the
view that an untagged node which is moved can be deemed clean by
virtue of the fact that no aspect of the node endures from any
previous unclean state. You haven't indicated whether, in these cases,
you would have moved every single node, though that seems not to be
the main weakness in your scenario...

What about non-geometric aspects of the way? Perhaps it has a name, a
highway type, a lanes tag or whatever. If these tags have a clean
history, once again, I would be in favour of considering the object
clean. But you can't really deem the entire way clean just by
recreating the geometry if you also retain unclean tags.

Dermot


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ja ma oma ei leiagi üles

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[OSM-legal-talk] Anonymous nodes edited supporting way

2011-12-15 Thread Pierre-Alain Dorange

Some aspect of the licence change is questionning me.

Old anonymous edition (when OSM do not require registering) are
ambigious to me : some say that those edits will be deleted.

But i have some examples (close to me) of old nodes (anonymous) that
where then improved sereval times and that support for example to big
motorway.
Those nodes where originally anonymous but where edited 6-8 times but
users who accept new licence.

What will happens to those nodes ?

An example :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/21462512/history

In this example only the nodes are old, the way is correct (only edited
by user who accept licence).

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OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/


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[OSM-legal-talk] instead of replacing data can I just revert to the last known clean version?

2011-12-15 Thread maning sambale

As what the subjects says, instead of removing and recreating tainted
data, I think it's best (in some cases) to revert to the last known
clean version.  Do other tried this approach in re-mapping?

-- 
cheers,
maning
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wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
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[OSM-talk] Permission for my work

2011-12-15 Thread Mike Dupont

I am going to post this one last time.
You have permission to re license all my work outside of kosovo and albania.
Please stop sending me so many messages, I am getting 10 a day. I have
created a new user that accepted the license terms, but my old user I
will not. I dont plan on contributing much more as a mapper to OSM,
but as a programmer.
thanks,
mike

-- 
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Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

2011-12-15 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Martijn van Exel wrote:
 there's bound to be people slave-mapping for GMM that 
 would contribute to OSM instead if 1) they knew about 
 it or 2) it were easier to get started.

If we had more than five people coding on the main site then maybe we could
start to fix 2. ;)

We're kind of hamstrung by the fact that so few people contribute code to
the main site (by which I mean osm.org and P2), but we have thousands of
eager mappers asking these few people to improve more and more things.
Though we do try, it's difficult to tell the eager mappers sorry, I haven't
got time to scratch your particular itch, I've got some work to do to
improve OSM's UI for new mappers.

If you'd like to help improve OSM's ease of use, and I agree that would be
terrific, Write Some Code!

cheers
Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] [osmosis-dev] Osmosis replication fails

2011-12-15 Thread Brett Henderson

On 13 December 2011 06:31, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:

 Hi all,

 I have a replication task set up, initially with a longer interval
 because my planet file is a few weeks old. I have had it running in a
 cron job with a two hour interval but I get a lot of errors similar to
 this one:

 SEVERE: Thread for task 1-rri failed
 org.openstreetmap.osmosis.core.OsmosisRuntimeException: Unable to
 parse xml file /tmp/change8301792328184763034.tmp.  publicId=(null),
 systemId=(null), lineNumber=7384, columnNumber=3.
 
 Caused by: org.xml.sax.SAXParseException; lineNumber: 746;
 columnNumber: 3; The element type osmChange must be terminated by
 the matching end-tag /osmChange.


It sounds like the change files are incomplete.  Perhaps some of the
downloads are failing.  Is your network connection usually reliable?



 Out of 50 executions, this error appeared 23 times.
 I have my replication interval set to one day, could that be the problem?
 Processing (when it succeeds) takes about 90 minutes. I have the cron
 job set to execute every two hours.


How is your replication configured?  Specifically which replication files
are you using (ie. minute, hour or day)?  It may be worth switching to
files with a longer interval if you are patching a file to reduce the
number of downloads required.  Minute replication files would typically be
more suitable to patching a database where small files can be applied
quickly.

Brett
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Re: [OSM-talk] Branding question, OSM logo with .ai


Hi Frans.
There simply is no right logo.
The osm logo is like a general idea, that can be changed slightly.
There is the logo used on the website and the wiki, but even that 
changed in the past, because somebody proposed a new version that others 
liked.


About your suggestion about AI:
I personally would prefer Inkscape before AI - not only as it's free 
software, but also as it produces a free, standardized output format - SVG.
I would even use Inkscape for Banners etc. myself ;) but others may like 
the AI file. If you want, you could upload that to the wiki page about 
the logo?


regards
Peter

Am 07.12.2011 17:04, schrieb Frans Thamura:

hi all

i just hacking the osm logo (develop using inkspace, isnt it?), now i
change and make it AI.

i believe AI is important for people that want to use it for design
banner, etc.

i love to share it to all of you.. atteched

i got the 101010101 with zoomer glass (magnificier glass) in
inkspace svg edition..

  and several bugs in countour (green area), and several in street/river..

anyone know who is the logo master ?

i see in inkspace edition, the logo like moving out from the border.
is this the real logo, but i got the pdf, all area, street, countour
trimmed with border -  see the PDF.

which one is the right logo?




F


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Re: [OSM-talk] Branding question, OSM logo with .ai

2011-12-15 Thread Tom Hughes


On 07/12/11 16:04, Frans Thamura wrote:


i see in inkspace edition, the logo like moving out from the border.
is this the real logo, but i got the pdf, all area, street, countour
trimmed with border -  see the PDF.

which one is the right logo?


Simple, the master copy of the logo is the one on the main site, which 
is held as SVG in the rails port git repository and can be found here:


  http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo.svg

the rendered PNG version that we actually use on the site is:

  http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo.png

I believe Richard has already explained that the problems with loading 
the SVG into AI stem from AI's poor SVG import, but we would not wish 
the master copy to be held as native AI for obvious reasons.


Tom

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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Permission for my work


On 15/12/2011 09:10, Mike Dupont wrote:

You have permission to re license all my work outside of kosovo and albania.
You mean permission to re-license all your work for use outside of 
Kosovo and Albania, or permission to re-license all your work except 
Kosovo and Albania ?



I have created a new user that accepted the license terms, but my old user I 
will not.
You mean that you old user will not accept the license terms ? Wouldn't 
that be at least partly contradictory with the permission to re-license 
all your work outside of Kosovo and Albania ?

I dont plan on contributing much more as a mapper to OSM,
but as a programmer.

Good !


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Re: [OSM-talk] Permission for my work

2011-12-15 Thread Janko Mihelić

So these are the affected areas:
http://yosmhm.neis-one.org/#?zoom=2lat=2.25504lon=1.1081layers=B0Tu=h4ck3rm1k3

You are the biggest red contributor in Croatia, and remapping your work
is going to take us a lot of work. How do we relicense your work?

Janko Mihelić

2011/12/15 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com

 I am going to post this one last time.
 You have permission to re license all my work outside of kosovo and
 albania.
 Please stop sending me so many messages, I am getting 10 a day. I have
 created a new user that accepted the license terms, but my old user I
 will not. I dont plan on contributing much more as a mapper to OSM,
 but as a programmer.
 thanks,
 mike

 --
 James Michael DuPont
 Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org

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Re: [OSM-talk] Harming the community

2011-12-15 Thread Christian Rogel

Le 15 déc. 2011 à 07:02, Russ Nelson a écrit :

 Serge Wroclawski writes:
 It seems every six months or so, a new set of license troll
 discussions come up.
 
 I wasn't trolling. You are. Stop it.

Meanwhile, another period of deleting a bunch of posts whithout reading them.
Seems happen every three months depending on OSMF announces. 
Good new : they were read carefully. ;-)

Christian
OSMF member
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Re: [OSM-talk] Permission for my work

2011-12-15 Thread Janko Mihelić

Ups, link doesn't work. Put h4ck3rm1k3 in the text box.

2011/12/15 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com

 So these are the affected areas:

 http://yosmhm.neis-one.org/#?zoom=2lat=2.25504lon=1.1081layers=B0Tu=h4ck3rm1k3

 You are the biggest red contributor in Croatia, and remapping your work
 is going to take us a lot of work. How do we relicense your work?

 Janko Mihelić


 2011/12/15 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com

 I am going to post this one last time.
 You have permission to re license all my work outside of kosovo and
 albania.
 Please stop sending me so many messages, I am getting 10 a day. I have
 created a new user that accepted the license terms, but my old user I
 will not. I dont plan on contributing much more as a mapper to OSM,
 but as a programmer.
 thanks,
 mike

 --
 James Michael DuPont
 Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org

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Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in determining tainted ways

2011-12-15 Thread David Groom

- Original Message - 
From: Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com

To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in 
determining tainted ways

Yeah, a healthy chunk of the interstates in Kansas are the same way. I
didn't go quite as deep as Nathan but this way is a relevant example:
http://osm.mapki.com/history/way.php?id=33576021

User moonwashed created this way by splitting it from a TIGER way.
He made several more edits to it but the last 20 versions have been by
agreeing users (including both NE2 and myself) and while that page
doesn't show node position changes, I have verified that every single
node has been moved since moonwashed last touched it.

But do you know what the source was for moving each node? As has been said 
earlier, if each node was simply moved by a tiny amount away from the 
position created by moonwashed, and the new position of the node was not 
determined by reference to some other source (Bing or GPS maybe), then the 
new nodes are derived form moonwashes edits

So in my mind
there is no information left in that way that is attributable to the
declining user.

Not necessarily true.  You can only state that when you know for sure what 
the basis was for moving each node

David

I would have absolutely no misgivings doing a straight
copy/paste to replace that way with an identical duplicate. But I
would rather not do so out of respect to the other CT-accepting users
who have contributed to that object.

Saying that it is up to the community to decide individual objects is
nice but I don't think there is enough time for me to evaluate every
tainted object in Kansas before April 1 and there sure as hell isn't
enough of a community here to help me with such a thankless task.
There are a few mappers in the area but if I asked them to deal with
this kind of stuff, I'm pretty sure they would run away screaming. I
doubt I can expect much outside help either since pretty much everyone
is affected and will be working in their own area first.

And as long as there is no official word from the foundation about
exactly how this change will be technically executed, we can't really
proceed in a meaningful way anyway except from trying to contact
non-responsive users, which I am doing. So as much as I really don't
really care about the license and am happy to relicense under ODbL and
even think it might be a good move, I do have some serious doubts
about the ambiguity of the process this late in the process...

Toby

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com 
wrote:

On 12/14/2011 10:25 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 12/15/2011 04:11 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

So why have people been recommending for months that we remap tainted
objects when we still don't know what needs to be remapped?

If you prefer to wait until the exact rules are laid out for you, that's
your choice.

Yes, I prefer only doing a make-work task once.

Personally I'd rather make a few educated guesses and get

to work now.

By my educated reasoning, anything from one node to the entire road is
tainted, so it's a little hard to make a guess.

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Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in determining tainted ways


On 15/12/2011 12:40, David Groom wrote:

- Original Message -
From: Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:47 AM

User moonwashed created this way by splitting it from a TIGER way.
He made several more edits to it but the last 20 versions have been by
agreeing users (including both NE2 and myself) and while that page
doesn't show node position changes, I have verified that every single
node has been moved since moonwashed last touched it.


But do you know what the source was for moving each node? As has been 
said earlier, if each node was simply moved by a tiny amount away from 
the position created by moonwashed, and the new position of the node 
was not determined by reference to some other source (Bing or GPS 
maybe), then the new nodes are derived form moonwashes edits
But what if the source changes ? When I use high-resolution imagery to 
improve areas formerly mapped from low-resolution imagery, I change the 
source tag - i.e. from Yahoo low resolution satellite to Microsoft 
Bing satellite. Since my edit is correlated with a change of source, 
shouldn't it be considered a break from being a derivative ?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Harming the community

2011-12-15 Thread Mikel Maron

Kill this thread please.

-Moderators
 
== Mikel Maron ==
+14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron



 From: Christian Rogel christian.ro...@club-internet.fr
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Harming the community
 
Le 15 déc. 2011 à 07:02, Russ Nelson a écrit :

 Serge Wroclawski writes:
 It seems every six months or so, a new set of license troll
 discussions come up.
 
 I wasn't trolling. You are. Stop it.

Meanwhile, another period of deleting a bunch of posts whithout reading them.
Seems happen every three months depending on OSMF announces. 
Good new : they were read carefully. ;-)

Christian
OSMF member
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Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in determining tainted ways

2011-12-15 Thread David Groom

- Original Message - 
From: Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org

To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in 
determining tainted ways

On 15/12/2011 12:40, David Groom wrote:

- Original Message -
From: Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:47 AM

User moonwashed created this way by splitting it from a TIGER way.
He made several more edits to it but the last 20 versions have been by
agreeing users (including both NE2 and myself) and while that page
doesn't show node position changes, I have verified that every single
node has been moved since moonwashed last touched it.

But do you know what the source was for moving each node? As has been 
said earlier, if each node was simply moved by a tiny amount away from 
the position created by moonwashed, and the new position of the node was 
not determined by reference to some other source (Bing or GPS maybe), 
then the new nodes are derived form moonwashes edits
But what if the source changes ? When I use high-resolution imagery to 
improve areas formerly mapped from low-resolution imagery, I change the 
source tag - i.e. from Yahoo low resolution satellite to Microsoft Bing 
satellite. Since my edit is correlated with a change of source, shouldn't 
it be considered a break from being a derivative ?

Yes it should be considred a break, because in that case you know what the 
source for moving the nodes was.

What I was pointing out is that you have to know the source used when moving 
the nodes, before you can determine if the new position is derived from the 
old one

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in determining tainted ways


On 15/12/2011 13:17, David Groom wrote:

- Original Message -
From: Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:59 AM
But what if the source changes ? When I use high-resolution imagery 
to improve areas formerly mapped from low-resolution imagery, I 
change the source tag - i.e. from Yahoo low resolution satellite to 
Microsoft Bing satellite. Since my edit is correlated with a change 
of source, shouldn't it be considered a break from being a derivative ?
Yes it should be considered a break, because in that case you know 
what the

source for moving the nodes was.
Good. Now do the license change impact auditing tools currently take 
that into account ? Should they only take the object's source tag into 
account or also mention of a source in the changeset commit comment ?



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Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in determining tainted ways

2011-12-15 Thread 80n

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote:

 On 15/12/2011 13:17, David Groom wrote:

 - Original Message -
 From: Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org
 To: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:59 AM

 But what if the source changes ? When I use high-resolution imagery to
 improve areas formerly mapped from low-resolution imagery, I change the
 source tag - i.e. from Yahoo low resolution satellite to Microsoft Bing
 satellite. Since my edit is correlated with a change of source, shouldn't
 it be considered a break from being a derivative ?

 Yes it should be considered a break, because in that case you know what
 the

 source for moving the nodes was.

 Good. Now do the license change impact auditing tools currently take that
 into account ? Should they only take the object's source tag into account
 or also mention of a source in the changeset commit comment ?

 I think there may be a need to better understand how copyright works in
this respect in the real world.

The location of individual nodes probably has no copyright component,
however the shape of a way probably does [1].  If several people have
adjusted the shape of a way then they most likely all have joint ownership
of the copyright of the whole of that way [2].

Joint ownership is an important principle to understand.  If someone edits
a way then they are making a derivative of that way and inheriting *all* of
the joint copyright ownerships.  Even if their changes are to remove the
effect of a change by one of the previous contributors it does not, as far
as I know, delete that contributors copyright.

If this is true, then the only way to disinfect a tainted way is to revert
back to the version prior to the infection and applying subsequent changes
to that version.  Simply negating changes does not delete copyright
ownership because the ownership extends to the whole work.

Does anyone know of any precedents that show how copyright, once gained,
can be deleted from a work?

80n

[1] Section 1 (b) (i) of
http://membled.com/work/osm/Map_Project_Memo_public_FINAL.pdf

[2] Section 2a of
http://membled.com/work/osm/Map_Project_Memo_public_FINAL.pdf
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Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in determining tainted ways

2011-12-15 Thread Mikel Maron

Please continue any detailed discussion of this topic to legal-talk ... that's 
what it's for.

-Mikel  Moderators
 
== Mikel Maron ==
+14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron



 From: 80n 80n...@gmail.com
To: Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in 
determining tainted ways
 

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote:

On 15/12/2011 13:17, David Groom wrote:

- Original Message -
From: Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:59 AM

But what if the source changes ? When I use high-resolution imagery to 
improve areas formerly mapped from low-resolution imagery, I change the 
source tag - i.e. from Yahoo low resolution satellite to Microsoft Bing 
satellite. Since my edit is correlated with a change of source, shouldn't 
it be considered a break from being a derivative ?

Yes it should be considered a break, because in that case you know what the

source for moving the nodes was.

Good. Now do the license change impact auditing tools currently take that into 
account ? Should they only take the object's source tag into account or also 
mention of a source in the changeset commit comment ?

I think there may be a need to better understand how copyright works in this 
respect in the real world.  

The location of individual nodes probably has no copyright component, however 
the shape of a way probably does [1].  If several people have adjusted the 
shape of a way then they most likely all have joint ownership of the copyright 
of the whole of that way [2].

Joint ownership is an important principle to understand.  If someone edits a 
way then they are making a derivative of that way and inheriting *all* of the 
joint copyright ownerships.  Even if their changes are to remove the effect of 
a change by one of the previous contributors it does not, as far as I know, 
delete that contributors copyright.

If this is true, then the only way to disinfect a tainted way is to revert 
back to the version prior to the infection and applying subsequent changes to 
that version.  Simply negating changes does not delete copyright ownership 
because the ownership extends to the whole work.

Does anyone know of any precedents that show how copyright, once gained, can 
be deleted from a work?

80n


[1] Section 1 (b) (i) of 
http://membled.com/work/osm/Map_Project_Memo_public_FINAL.pdf 

[2] Section 2a of  
http://membled.com/work/osm/Map_Project_Memo_public_FINAL.pdf 




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Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in determining tainted ways


Hi,

On 12/15/2011 02:11 PM, 80n wrote:

Joint ownership is an important principle to understand.  If someone
edits a way then they are making a derivative of that way and inheriting
*all* of the joint copyright ownerships.


Provided that a way is a work - maybe it isn't; maybe the whole of OSM 
is the work?



Even if their changes are to
remove the effect of a change by one of the previous contributors it
does not, as far as I know, delete that contributors copyright.


In some national versions of joint authorship, while the joint authors 
all have a share in the copyright, they do not have the power to veto 
the use (and sublicensing) of the work by the other authors. This is an 
important principle to understand.



If this is true, then the only way to disinfect a tainted way is to
revert back to the version prior to the infection and applying
subsequent changes to that version.  Simply negating changes does not
delete copyright ownership because the ownership extends to the whole work.


It sounds like an utterly stupid thing to do but if we now re-set 
objects to an earlier state by negating changes and later somebody finds 
out that we would have had to follow your above procedure instead, then 
that can still be done - automatically. So I'd not waste much thought on 
this right now; we can cross that bridge when we come to it.


Bye
Frederik

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[OSM-talk] ODBL Status Garmin Maps



As I previously mentioned, I have put a set of Garmin maps online that 
are based on Frederik Ramms data for his online viewer.


I've now included a couple of more regions and a 2nd map style. I expect 
to update the European maps on a daily base, the others less frequently 
for now.


The maps can be downloaded from http://odbl.poole.ch/garmin/

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Permission for my work

2011-12-15 Thread Russ Nelson

Mike  Dupont writes:
  I am going to post this one last time.
  You have permission to re license all my work outside of kosovo and albania.
  Please stop sending me so many messages, I am getting 10 a day. I have
  created a new user that accepted the license terms, but my old user I
  will not. I dont plan on contributing much more as a mapper to OSM,
  but as a programmer.

Then can we get the OSM admins to split your edits into the new user
and old user based on their location? It would be relatively easy to
make a bounding box, and say All jamesmikedupont edits outside get
renamed to $NEWUSER.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] Permission for my work

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:

 Then can we get the OSM admins to split your edits into the new user
 and old user based on their location? It would be relatively easy to
 make a bounding box, and say All jamesmikedupont edits outside get
 renamed to $NEWUSER.

I don't think that there is an API call for change ownership of these
changesets, or similar.  As a hack, an admin might be able to do that
directly in the DB, but that may have side effects.

Would you, perhaps with others, like to take look at the implications
on history, full history, users stats, downstream tools, or whatever
else comes to mind?

There are many interesting, productive tasks that we can tackle in
OSM.  More devs are always welcome.  I'll have an article on
blog.osmfoundation.org that relates to this shortly.

Best regards,
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Transition to CC-4 instead of destroying data

2011-12-15 Thread Ed Avis

Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes:

Only recently a legal analysis was posted by Ed Avis that came to the 
conclusion that while CC-BY-SA 2.0 may be fine for data, CTs really are 
required

The legal analysis looked in detail into the question of how far copyright
applies to OSM map data in the USA.  But the issue about whether OSM counts as
a joint work under US copyright law is something that the two lawyers only
briefly touched on.  They even suggested to me leaving it out of the final memo
altogether, since it was just a starting point for further research - I said I
was happy to leave it in.

(Briefly, if the work has joint copyright ownership then any owner, meaning
potentially any contributor, has full rights to do anything with it, as long as
profits are shared among the owners.  This is a US peculiarity.)

As others have also noted on the legal-talk list, there are good reasons to
believe that OSM is not simply a joint work.  As with other legal arguments, it
fails the on the ground test - if OSM is a joint work under US copyright law
then a wide variety of works (such as much free software) would fall under the
same rule, yet this does not seem to be the case in practice, so there is
probably more to it.

So I think it is too soon to draw the conclusion that CTs really are required;
I would not want it to join copyright does not apply in the unhappy group of
initial legal questions which were converted into often-repeated Internet memes.

Further, the lawyers mentioned to me that in order to get around the joint work
problem some contributor terms would be needed, but that the particular CTs
the OSMF has come up with are not really designed to address the issue.  They
did not compare the new CTs with the terms the project had before, which
essentially said that you agree to license under CC-BY-SA, and which might be
equally effective at addressing the joint work problem if it exists.  We do
not yet know.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Transition to CC-4 instead of destroying data




Am 15.12.2011 16:33, schrieb Ed Avis:
... They did not compare the new CTs with the terms the project had 
before, which essentially said that you agree to license under 
CC-BY-SA, and which might be equally effective at addressing the joint 
work problem if it exists. We do not yet know.


Something that I've pointed out before: the wording in the pre CT 1.0 
contributor terms was very fuzzy, in particular it -did- not clearly 
state that you were licensing the data to the operator of the website 
on CC-by-SA 2.0 terms, it could just as good be interpreted as giving 
the operator of the website permission to license and distribute the 
data on CC-by-SA 2.0 terms, leaving the internal contractual and licence 
relationship open.


See 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms/History


Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Transition to CC-4 instead of destroying data

2011-12-15 Thread andrzej zaborowski

On 15 December 2011 16:42, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote:
 Henk Hoff toffehoff at gmail.com writes:

Looking at the current situation, the ODbL is a step forward from the current
CC-BY-SA 2.0. When (in due time) CC4 proofs to be a better license then ODbL,
we could change to this license.

 If the new CC licence will be ready next year, why not keep the existing CC
 licence available as an option until then, in parallel with the ODbL?  Then 
 when
 CC4 is finalized the OSMF can make the decision whether to drop CC altogether.
 But people can still take advantage of the extra permissions given by ODbL, 
 too.

There exist cases where people are *now* using OSM under CC-By-SA,
with full respect of all of our community guidelines, where they will
have to stop using it if OSM becomes ODbL-only.  This is because share
alike licenses are incompatible with each other, even though as some
human-readable summary says the two licenses are similar in spirit.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] ODBL Status Garmin Maps

2011-12-15 Thread andrzej zaborowski

The subject should rather say CT-acceptance status Garmin map, as the
map is not based on ODbL compatibility but rather on CT-acceptance.
ODbL compatibility is not implied by CT version 1.2.4 acceptance.  Not
because someone clicked accept fraudulently, but because its text
doesn't really require it.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Transition to CC-4 instead of destroying data

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Eric Marsden eric.mars...@free.fr wrote:
 Creative Commons recently confirmed that the next version of its
 licences will attempt to cover sui generis database rights. Version 4.0
 is planned to be available at the end of 2012. This was previously
 mentioned here as a possible alternative to the destructive ODbL
 process.

 I don't see any discussion of this in recent LWG minutes. Has
 it been considered?

This is a question that has been a round for a while and deserves a
reply with some context.

Creative Commons told us that we shouldn't use their license for data.
 That started this process years ago.  OSM approached CC about
drafting a data license as we thought that was the best way to
proceed.  Some initial work on what became ODbL was with CC involved,
but then CC stepped aside as data was not their core interest.

Open Data Commons became part of the Open Knowledge Foundation and
development of ODbL continued, was drafted and revised in consultation
with the OSM community and others interested in open data.

Now CC are talking about v4 and data.  CC are also in touch with the
OSM community at large; we see posts from folks there on osm lists
periodically.  And two folks from CC spoke with LWG on conference
calls this year.  They invited the OSM community to participate in the
drafting of v4, and we should.

They also said that their last revision took two years.

If CCv4 ends up being better than ODbL, and agreeable to the osm
community at large, we could certainly transition to it. The new CTs
would make that transition relatively smooth.  We can make that call
when it's ready.

Best regards,
Richard (from my recollection of discussions at LWG)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Transition to CC-4 instead of destroying data

2011-12-15 Thread Ed Avis

Richard Weait richard at weait.com writes:

If CCv4 ends up being better than ODbL, and agreeable to the osm
community at large, we could certainly transition to it.

Or indeed add it as an option - while keeping ODbL to stay compatible with 
people
who have started using the map under those terms.

It's not necessarily a case of whether one licence is better than another,
because each may have their strengths and weaknesses for different users of the
data, particularly when it comes to being compatible with other share-alike
projects.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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[OSM-talk] OSM osm2psql global data - 10 days

hi all

my server just finished load the 250GB data of OSM data (global data)
to our psql, using osm2psql, wow almost 10 days...

and today we just start make 16x zoom tile...

we will see how long it will be.


--
Frans Thamura (曽志胜)
Shadow Master and Lead Investor
Meruvian.
Integrated Hypermedia Java Solution Provider.

Mobile: +628557888699
Blog: http://blogs.mervpolis.com/roller/flatburger (id)

FB: http://www.facebook.com/meruvian
TW: http://www.twitter.com/meruvian / @meruvian
Website: http://www.meruvian.org

We grow because we share the same belief.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Permission for my work

2011-12-15 Thread Toby Murray

 Mike  Dupont writes:
   I am going to post this one last time.
   You have permission to re license all my work outside of kosovo and 
 albania.
   Please stop sending me so many messages, I am getting 10 a day. I have
   created a new user that accepted the license terms, but my old user I
   will not. I dont plan on contributing much more as a mapper to OSM,
   but as a programmer.

I hadn't tied you to your OSM user name for some reason until I saw
Janko's message above. I was actually about to send you another
message about your imports in the US. But that won't be necessary I
guess :)

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
 Then can we get the OSM admins to split your edits into the new user
 and old user based on their location? It would be relatively easy to
 make a bounding box, and say All jamesmikedupont edits outside get
 renamed to $NEWUSER.

As Richard said, I'm guessing that would require executing a raw SQL
query. I don't think I would want to do this if I was an admin, for a
variety of reasons. I think since Frederik has gone the route of
enabling changeset-level overrides, this shouldn't be too hard to
solve. Changesets have associated bounding boxes that can be combined
with the username to get a list of changesets that can be relicensed.
I'll try to come up with something tonight.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Transition to CC-4 instead of destroying data

2011-12-15 Thread Eric Marsden

 rw == Richard Weait rich...@weait.com writes:

  rw If CCv4 ends up being better than ODbL, and agreeable to the osm
  rw community at large, we could certainly transition to it. The new CTs
  rw would make that transition relatively smooth.  We can make that call
  rw when it's ready.

  Thanks for your reply. I would like to suggest that two recent
  developments mentioned in this thread (update on the CC-4 process and
  possibility for a seamless transition for OSM; legal analysis
  provided by Ed Avis) be examined by the LWG, to decide whether to
  proceed with the current timetable for deletion of CC-only data.

  As I understand it, the push for ODbL was motivated primarily by two
  concerns:

  (1) the risk of nasty people ripping off data due to uncertainty over
  whether copyright applies to the OSM database in the USA

  (2) poor applicability of CC-BY-SA to derived works such as maps

  My reading of the legal analysis posted by Ed Davis is that concern
  (1) is not as strong as it seemed previously. (I also feel that the
  threat of shaming violators of the spirit of the OSM licence is a
  sufficient disincentive to ripping off, and further tend to agree with
  Russ Nelson's argument concerning the value of community, or living
  data over dead data.) 

  Concern (2) could perhaps be (partially) addressed by clarification on
  the website concerning the way in which the project suggests that the
  notion of derived work be handled in specific use cases; I believe
  that in many jurisdictions, the intent of a licence is as important as
  its precise wording. We can also hope that CC4 handles this better (in
  2013 or 2014). 


  In my opinion, these two concerns are greatly outweighed by the 
  destruction of huge amounts of data, useless remapping work and
  demotivation of many contributors which are certain consequences of
  the current plan for deleting CC-only data.

-- 
Eric Marsden


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Re: [OSM-talk] Transition to CC-4 instead of destroying data

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Eric Marsden eric.mars...@free.fr wrote:
 rw == Richard Weait rich...@weait.com writes:

  rw If CCv4 ends up being better than ODbL, and agreeable to the osm
  rw community at large, we could certainly transition to it. The new CTs
  rw would make that transition relatively smooth.  We can make that call
  rw when it's ready.

  Thanks for your reply. I would like to suggest that two recent
  developments mentioned in this thread (update on the CC-4 process and
  possibility for a seamless transition for OSM; legal analysis
  provided by Ed Avis) be examined by the LWG, to decide whether to
  proceed with the current timetable for deletion of CC-only data.

LWG are aware of both CC's intent top draft v4 and of Ed Avis'
documents.  Further discussion on legal-talk@, perhaps?

 (2) poor applicability of CC-BY-SA to derived works such as maps

Exactly the opposite.  :-)  CC licenses are intended for creative
works like a finished map, song, sonnet, novel...  CC advised us not
to use it for the underlying data and database.

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Re: [OSM-talk] An example of the complications inherent in determining tainted ways

2011-12-15 Thread Nathan Edgars II


On 12/15/2011 8:21 AM, Mikel Maron wrote:

Please continue any detailed discussion of this topic to legal-talk ...
that's what it's for.


The question is not what's legally true, but what conditions the OSMF 
will require an object to satisfy to not be reverted. So it actually 
belongs on osmf-tainting-policy-talk, but there is no such list.


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[OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

hi all

any comment for Garmin etrex 10 for using OSM specific work

thx

F

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

I believe you would be better off getting a 20 or 30. Both can use maps 
generated from OSM data (it is helpful to know what is already in the 
database when you go out surveying).


Simon

Am 15.12.2011 19:59, schrieb Frans Thamura:

hi all

any comment for Garmin etrex 10 for using OSM specific work

thx

F

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

what is the weakness of etrex 10?

F



On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 I believe you would be better off getting a 20 or 30. Both can use maps
 generated from OSM data (it is helpful to know what is already in the
 database when you go out surveying).

 Simon

 Am 15.12.2011 19:59, schrieb Frans Thamura:

 hi all

 any comment for Garmin etrex 10 for using OSM specific work

 thx

 F

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

2011-12-15 Thread RB

Hi.

I use the 30 and I really enjoy it. I also use it to monitor and record my
running trainings with an heart rate monitor. Great tool.

It is automatically recognized as a removable device and records everything
in .gpx by default. Great tool to contribute to the map.



On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Frans Thamura fr...@meruvian.org wrote:

 hi all

 any comment for Garmin etrex 10 for using OSM specific work

 thx

 F

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

my idea to buy for student training for GPS

right now we use android devices, but love to add GPS devices..

still seeking the best way

so we need as cheap as possible, and also can perfect work with OSM
--
Frans Thamura (曽志胜)
Shadow Master and Lead Investor
Meruvian.
Integrated Hypermedia Java Solution Provider.

Mobile: +628557888699
Blog: http://blogs.mervpolis.com/roller/flatburger (id)

FB: http://www.facebook.com/meruvian
TW: http://www.twitter.com/meruvian / @meruvian
Website: http://www.meruvian.org

We grow because we share the same belief.



On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:09 AM, RB tan...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi.

 I use the 30 and I really enjoy it. I also use it to monitor and record my
 running trainings with an heart rate monitor. Great tool.

 It is automatically recognized as a removable device and records everything
 in .gpx by default. Great tool to contribute to the map.



 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Frans Thamura fr...@meruvian.org wrote:

 hi all

 any comment for Garmin etrex 10 for using OSM specific work

 thx

 F

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

Doesn't officially support maps, no storage expansion (microSD card) 
support.


Simon

Am 15.12.2011 20:08, schrieb Frans Thamura:

what is the weakness of etrex 10?

F



On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Simon Poolesi...@poole.ch  wrote:

I believe you would be better off getting a 20 or 30. Both can use maps
generated from OSM data (it is helpful to know what is already in the
database when you go out surveying).

Simon

Am 15.12.2011 19:59, schrieb Frans Thamura:

hi all

any comment for Garmin etrex 10 for using OSM specific work

thx

F

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

ok, i will as for etex 20

i got also etrex vista H.. with WAAS.

the price same.

any recommendation?

F


On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:18 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 Doesn't officially support maps, no storage expansion (microSD card)
 support.

 Simon

 Am 15.12.2011 20:08, schrieb Frans Thamura:

 what is the weakness of etrex 10?

 F



 On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Simon Poolesi...@poole.ch  wrote:

 I believe you would be better off getting a 20 or 30. Both can use maps
 generated from OSM data (it is helpful to know what is already in the
 database when you go out surveying).

 Simon

 Am 15.12.2011 19:59, schrieb Frans Thamura:

 hi all

 any comment for Garmin etrex 10 for using OSM specific work

 thx

 F

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Re: [OSM-talk] Permission for my work

2011-12-15 Thread Grant Slater

On 15 December 2011 17:00, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
 Then can we get the OSM admins to split your edits into the new user
 and old user based on their location? It would be relatively easy to
 make a bounding box, and say All jamesmikedupont edits outside get
 renamed to $NEWUSER.

 As Richard said, I'm guessing that would require executing a raw SQL
 query. I don't think I would want to do this if I was an admin, for a
 variety of reasons. I think since Frederik has gone the route of
 enabling changeset-level overrides, this shouldn't be too hard to
 solve. Changesets have associated bounding boxes that can be combined
 with the username to get a list of changesets that can be relicensed.
 I'll try to come up with something tonight.


The list of the changesets is here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quick_History_Service/Changeset_Lists

/ Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM osm2psql global data - 10 days

2011-12-15 Thread mick

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:50:55 +0700
Frans Thamura fr...@meruvian.org wrote:

 hi all
 
 my server just finished load the 250GB data of OSM data (global data)
 to our psql, using osm2psql, wow almost 10 days...
 
and I thought 4 hours to load south-west England was bad

mick

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Frans Thamura fr...@meruvian.org wrote:
 ok, i will as for etex 20

 i got also etrex vista H.. with WAAS.

 the price same.

 any recommendation?

I've used those several Vistas for some time with no complaints but for these:
- one of 8 was dead on arrival, but replaced quickly by vendor.
- one died after a drop to pavement from 1.5m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

2011-12-15 Thread Michael Krämer

Hi,

 I've used those several Vistas for some time with no complaints but for
these:  - one of 8 was dead on arrival, but replaced quickly by vendor. 
- one died after a drop to pavement from 1.5m.

- my Vista had the rubber arming go off after about half a year. This is a
well known problem of Vistas, I think especially when used in warmer
temperatures.

Michael
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Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin ETREX 10

2011-12-15 Thread Martijn van Exel

If you don't need a track display, you can save some money and get
simple dedicated trackloggers. We used
http://www.amaryllo.com/almooj/sports-products/amaryllo-trip-tracker-gps-sports-device-7.html
in the Netherlands and those worked well. Advantage over phone apps I
found is better accuracy and battery life.
The Amaryllo (also branded as NaviGPS and possibly more) is just one
example. There's a whole range of affordable trackloggers.

See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GPS_Reviews for a
(partially outdated) list.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Frans Thamura fr...@meruvian.org wrote:
my idea to buy for student training for GPS

right now we use android devices, but love to add GPS devices..

still seeking the best way

so we need as cheap as possible, and also can perfect work with OSM
--
Frans Thamura (曽志胜)
Shadow Master and Lead Investor
Meruvian.
Integrated Hypermedia Java Solution Provider.

Mobile: +628557888699
Blog: http://blogs.mervpolis.com/roller/flatburger (id)

FB: http://www.facebook.com/meruvian
TW: http://www.twitter.com/meruvian / @meruvian
Website: http://www.meruvian.org

We grow because we share the same belief.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:09 AM, RB tan...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi.

I use the 30 and I really enjoy it. I also use it to monitor and record my
running trainings with an heart rate monitor. Great tool.

It is automatically recognized as a removable device and records everything
in .gpx by default. Great tool to contribute to the map.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Frans Thamura fr...@meruvian.org wrote:

hi all

any comment for Garmin etrex 10 for using OSM specific work

thx

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--
martijn van exel
geospatial omnivore
1109 1st ave #2
salt lake city, ut 84103
801-550-5815
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Friends

2011-12-15 Thread Martijn van Exel

Cool. It gives me a 500 error when you're not logged in though.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com
 To: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 5:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Friends

 One thing I have thought might not be too hard to code up and provide
 some use would be to have a Recent edits by my friends page that
 just accumulates recent edits by your friends onto one page and
 displays it with bboxes like the single user edit history page. Right
 now you can only see the changeset comments from the last edit your
 friends have made. To see more is at least 2 clicks for each friend.

 Yup, sounded cool and simple. Pull request made!

 https://github.com/mikelmaron/openstreetmap-website/commit/db497585b41a68278883ab8dbd3f2c56179b28a8

 And deployed! http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/friends

 Special thanks to Tom for cleaning up my code, and getting this out so fast.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Friends

2011-12-15 Thread Toby Murray

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
 Cool. It gives me a 500 error when you're not logged in though.

There exist people who aren't logged in to osm.org at all times?!

But seriously, this is great. Thanks!

Now I see how lazy some of my OSM friends have been. Next feature
request: a poke button! (no, just kidding)

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mails to undecided mappers (was: Editing of content that will be deleted on April 1st)

2011-12-15 Thread Robert Norris

 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 02:49:13 +0100
 From: o...@tobias-knerr.de
 To: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: [OSM-talk] Mails to undecided mappers (was: Editing of content that 
 will be deleted on April 1st)

 David Earl wrote:
  I'll certainly be contacting people now Frederick has provided an easy
  means to evaluate the data, but I'm not overly optimistic about people
  replying - I run a membership database and find maybe 10% of people
  change their email addresses each year, and half of those don't tell me,
  and that's when they've paid an annual sub to belong.

 I strongly recommend investing some time into mailing non-responders.
 I've done it for mappers in my region a while ago. About half of them
 reacted within a day or so; until today 22 out of 26 have agreed. One
 even started mapping again. Sadly, the other 4 did not react at all.
 (Note that this was before the second mass mailing, the success
 percentage would almost certainly be lower today.)

I've started contacting undecided local mappers near me, it helps that the 
first contact resulted in an agreement, so that keeps one encouraged!

However as far as I can tell the edits made by anonymous users will be removed 
come the 'judgement day'

I can't find any tools to help me find out the extent of anonymous edits - does 
any one have any advice?

Be Seeing You - Rob.
If at first you don't succeed,
then skydiving isn't for you.

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] uitspraak rechtzaak NWB

2011-12-15 Thread Frank Steggink


On 15-12-2011 1:03, dbuss...@goudappel.nl wrote:
de rechter staat vrijgave van het NWB toe en wijst niet alleen het 
spoedeisende belang af (dat was makkelijk geweest) maar legt ook uit 
waarom het inhoudelijk niet waarschijnlijk is dat het vrijgeven van 
het NWB verboden is:
_http://zoeken.rechtspraak.nl/ResultPage.aspx?snelzoeken=tsearchtype=ljnljn=BU8010_ 
http://zoeken.rechtspraak.nl/ResultPage.aspx?snelzoeken=tsearchtype=ljnljn=BU8010


Nu afwachten onder welke licentie het NWB wordt vrijgegeven.
Rechtstreekse import in OSM zou onzin zijn gezien de kwaliteit van OSM 
gemiddeld veel beter is.
Wat ik wel wil doen is een applicatie maken die inzichtelijk maakt 
waar wij in OSM hele wijken of verbindingen missen en omgekeerd.
Op de OSM kant kan ik me een WMS-onderlegger in JOSM voorstellen waar 
deze wegen initieel worden overgetrokken (bij gebrek aan beter) en van 
een tag hier moet nog iemand langs kunnen worden voorzien.
RWS zal onze wegen vanwege licentie niet zomaar kunnen overnemen maar 
de melding dat er iets mist wel als aanleiding nemen om de informatie 
bij de wegbeheerde op te vragen.

Zo kunnen we wederzijds van elkaar profiteren.
Deze werkwijze wordt ook in Canada gebruikt door National Resources 
Canada, die o.a. de topografische kaart samenstelt. Hun data is PD en 
kan dus in OSM worden geïmporteerd. Andersom is niet mogelijk, maar ze 
gebruiken wel OSM om veranderingen in de gaten te houden en ze gaan dan 
alsnog zelf data inwinnen.


Groeten,

Frank

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] uitspraak rechtzaak NWB

2011-12-15 Thread Stefan de Konink

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Op 15-12-11 17:13, Frank Steggink schreef:
 Deze werkwijze wordt ook in Canada gebruikt door National
 Resources Canada, die o.a. de topografische kaart samenstelt. Hun
 data is PD en kan dus in OSM worden geïmporteerd. Andersom is niet
 mogelijk, maar ze gebruiken wel OSM om veranderingen in de gaten te
 houden en ze gaan dan alsnog zelf data inwinnen.

Toch verschrikkelijk jammer? Dubbel werk, waarom zou dit juist vanaf
hoogwaardige data leveranciers eenrichtingverkeer (naar OSM) moeten zijn?


Stefan
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEAREKAAYFAk7qIcIACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn0fIgCdEA2CJ5Dbl5It8J+vZtI6ELM9
G5kAn1VZq12MxcMdIIEqXPNbcXIKWtM9
=Qu/+
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] uitspraak rechtzaak NWB

2011-12-15 Thread Frank Steggink


On 15-12-2011 17:35, Stefan de Konink wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Op 15-12-11 17:13, Frank Steggink schreef:

Deze werkwijze wordt ook in Canada gebruikt door National
Resources Canada, die o.a. de topografische kaart samenstelt. Hun
data is PD en kan dus in OSM worden geïmporteerd. Andersom is niet
mogelijk, maar ze gebruiken wel OSM om veranderingen in de gaten te
houden en ze gaan dan alsnog zelf data inwinnen.

Toch verschrikkelijk jammer? Dubbel werk, waarom zou dit juist vanaf
hoogwaardige data leveranciers eenrichtingverkeer (naar OSM) moeten zijn?



Het antwoord weet je zelf wel: licentietechnische redenen.

Ook al zouden deze niet meespelen, dan zou ik nog wel andere redenen 
kunnen verzinnen om data opnieuw in te winnen: kwaliteit, of de wil om 
alleen eigen data in een dataset te hebben.


Frank

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Re: [talk-au] Re-entering data to avoid licensing failure

2011-12-15 Thread Ian Sergeant

But I was quoting and responding directly to Ben's email, where he said I
think it's clear we need an automated way to remove non-new-ct-accepting
edits from ways where v1 was by an acceptor.

I was proposing a manual way through the API to kinda achieve this, which
could be partly scripted. Assuming nobody with db rights comes to our
assistance.

Ian.

On 15 December 2011 18:31, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:

Ok.

You made no mention of the V1 object being from a CT accepting user in
your original posting.

Cheers
Ross

On 15/12/11 14:40, Ian Sergeant wrote:

No I'm not. I think you may be misunderstanding what I am doing.

If the v1 object author has agreed to the CTs, but the v2 author has
not, I simply delete the object, load the v1 object directly, make my
changes, link the object and attribute the v1 author using the
attribution tag.

No copyright breach. I'm only using CT compliant data, I'm not even
looking at the non compliant object, and I'm attributing as is polite
and required.

Ian

On Dec 15, 2011 5:16 PM, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com
mailto:i...@4x4falcon.com wrote:

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Re: [talk-au] Re-entering data to avoid licensing failure

2011-12-15 Thread Mark Pulley

On 14/12/2011, at 4:56 PM, John Henderson wrote:

 Are others doing this?  Is there a better way of maintaining OSM's
 integrity given the situation we find ourselves in?


What we really need is to find out ASAP how the non-ODBL data will be deleted - 
will the minimum amount be lost (e.g. nodes moved by me get left alone as per 
my suggestion a couple of weeks ago) or will data with even a sniff of non-ODBL 
data be deleted. Then we'll know how much we need to re-map.

Mark P.

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[Talk-br] como simplificar/juntar caminhos/ruas com dados ja existentes

2011-12-15 Thread Fernando Avena

opa pessoal

então tenho duvida que seguinte, baixo os dados que tem on-line no osme
coloco em outra camada dados de gps (gpx), ai converto o gpx pra camada de
dados.

ai blz tenho camada2 com dados vindo do osm, e tenho a camada1 com dados do
gps.

ai acontece de alguns trechos de rodovias ou ruas, ter já dados da estrada
e eu ter em outra camada dados via gps que esta melhor.

tem como eu combinar camadas (isso sei que possível fazer), mas hora de
combinar, informar que aquele trecho da estrada que com dados via ibge, ele
se alinhe e combine/fique junto com o caminho que tenho via gps.

pois acabo perdendo muito tempo as vezes removendo trechos de estadas e
salvando o nome e outras info e tendo que informar na camada de dados pego
com gps. e depois combinando as camadas e depois unindo os trechos de
estradas com dados do osm com dados do gps.

não teria como alinhar/juntar e virar uma via só.

sei que possível selecionar as duas viasmas combinar pra virar
uma só não consegui.
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Re: [Talk-br] como simplificar/juntar caminhos/ruas com dados ja existentes

2011-12-15 Thread Leandro Motta Barros

Olá!

Se tem como fazer isso eu não sei, mas acho que na maioria dos casos
isso não daria bons resultados. Eu acho os dados brutos do GPS sujos
demais (exemplo simples: uma linha reta pode ser descrita com apenas
dois pontos; nos dados de GPS pode haver vários pontos intermediários
que não acrescentam informação nenhuma).

Pela minha experiência pessoal, o tempo de desenhar as vias é
relativamente pequeno (comparado com o tempo de colocar os devidos
tags), então sempre uso a camada GPX apenas como referência.

LMB

PS: Estás usando o JOSM? Aqui [
http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/2760 ] citam um plugin que ajuda a
limpar os dados do GPS. Nunca usei esse plugin, mas de repente
ajuda...

2011/12/15 Fernando Avena fernando.av...@gmail.com:
 opa pessoal

 então tenho duvida que seguinte, baixo os dados que tem on-line no osme
 coloco em outra camada dados de gps (gpx), ai converto o gpx pra camada de
 dados.

 ai blz tenho camada2 com dados vindo do osm, e tenho a camada1 com dados do
 gps.

 ai acontece de alguns trechos de rodovias ou ruas, ter já dados da estrada e
 eu ter em outra camada dados via gps que esta melhor.

 tem como eu combinar camadas (isso sei que possível fazer), mas hora de
 combinar, informar que aquele trecho da estrada que com dados via ibge, ele
 se alinhe e combine/fique junto com o caminho que tenho via gps.

 pois acabo perdendo muito tempo as vezes removendo trechos de estadas e
 salvando o nome e outras info e tendo que informar na camada de dados pego
 com gps. e depois combinando as camadas e depois unindo os trechos de
 estradas com dados do osm com dados do gps.

 não teria como alinhar/juntar e virar uma via só.

 sei que possível selecionar as duas viasmas combinar pra virar
 uma só não consegui.

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Re: [Talk-br] como simplificar/juntar caminhos/ruas com dados ja existentes

2011-12-15 Thread Fernando Avena

Em 15 de dezembro de 2011 18:02, Claudomiro Nascimento Junior 
claudom...@claudomiro.com escreveu:

 Os pontos brutos do gps NÃO são bons o suficiente para serem importados
 como nós do mapa.

 As trilhas GPS devem servir como uma camada de referência para a edição.


que quer dizer com isso, deixo o gps como fundo e vou traçando o caminho
pro cima? isso ok em alguns trechos faço...mas tem uns de quilômetros.
mandei um agora de 40km, se que for fazer na mão não tem como...pois imagem
não tem como ver.
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Re: [Talk-br] como simplificar/juntar caminhos/ruas com dados ja existentes

2011-12-15 Thread Wille


Fala, Avena!

Eu tinha essa mesma dúvida que você, mas acho que não tem uma solução 
pra isso.


Quando mapeio ruas, costumo desenhar sobre a trilha de GPS, porém com 
rodovias (de grande extensão principalmente) uso os dados do GPS mesmo. 
Apenas tomo o cuidado de remover nós duplicados e prestar atenção aos 
erros que o JOSM aponta.


O que eu geralmente faço, quando a trilha de GPS tá mais precisa do que 
a informação atual, é deletar a antiga deixando uns nós no ínicio e no 
fim para poder combinar com a trilha de GPS e ao mesmo tempo não 
precisar digitar as tags novamente, depois confiro se preciso substituir 
alguma tag. Porém é necessário fazer com bastante atenção pra não 
deletar o que não devia.


abraços,



On 15-12-2011 18:28, Fernando Avena wrote:



Em 15 de dezembro de 2011 18:02, Claudomiro Nascimento Junior 
claudom...@claudomiro.com mailto:claudom...@claudomiro.com escreveu:


Os pontos brutos do gps NÃO são bons o suficiente para serem
importados como nós do mapa.

As trilhas GPS devem servir como uma camada de referência para a
edição.


que quer dizer com isso, deixo o gps como fundo e vou traçando o 
caminho pro cima? isso ok em alguns trechos faço...mas tem uns de 
quilômetros. mandei um agora de 40km, se que for fazer na mão não tem 
como...pois imagem não tem como ver.



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Re: [Talk-br] como simplificar/juntar caminhos/ruas com dados ja existentes

2011-12-15 Thread Rodrigo Avila


 Em 15 de dezembro de 2011 18:02, Claudomiro Nascimento Junior 
 claudom...@claudomiro.com escreveu:

 que quer dizer com isso, deixo o gps como fundo e vou traçando o caminho
 pro cima?


Eu faço isso o tempo todo. A última edição que fiz, por exemplo, era de um
trecho do interior de Brochier/RS, onde não tem nenhuma imagem do Bing. Aí
o trabalho é esse mesmo: coleta o traço com o GPS, passa o gpx pro JOSM, e
desenha por cima. Mesmo em rodovias longas.

No início parece chato e demorado, mas com o tempo pegas o jeito.

Quando encontro estradas que já existem, eu procuro sempre mover os pontos
para o trecho novo, ao invés de apagar o velho e refazer. Só é preciso
lembrar de verificar no JOSM se, nestas rodovias, já não tem outras trilhas
GPX; se tiver, é bom traçar usando a média dos traçados, ao invés de se
concentrar em um único traço.

--
Rodrigo de Avila
Analista de Desenvolvimento

rodr...@avila.net.br • www.avila.net.br
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Re: [Talk-de] Remapping Anleitung unbrauchbar?

2011-12-15 Thread Andre Joost


Am 12.12.2011 08:51, schrieb Frederik Ramm:


Die Seite ist ja auch von jemandem geschrieben, der Relationen im
wesentlichen fuer unnoetiges Beiwerk haelt ;)

Und, mal ganz ehrlich gesagt, ausserhalb Deutschlands sind sie das
eigentlich auch. Vielleicht von Multipolygonen mal abgesehen.



... und das sind zufälligerweise so ziemlich alle Grenzen in DE, die in 
einem frühen Stadium von einem einzelnen Ablehner bearbeitet wurden.


Aber die kann man ja leicht anhand der bing-Luftbilder neu eintragen.
Oder so.

Gruß,
ajoessen


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Re: [Talk-de] key:entrance+steps

Also wenn Du blind läufst, ist eine Treppe abwärts gefährlicher als eine 
aufwärts.

(Wenn Du kleine Kinder dabei hast, übrigens auch).

upper und lower an die nodes ist Blödsinn, weil es durchaus sein kann, 
dass ein node zu zwei Treppen gehört - und dann?
incline=up bzw. incline=down dagegen entspricht der Semantik, die wir 
bei Einbahnstraßen etc. schon haben (auf bzw. ab in Richtung der 
definierten Reihenfolge der Nodes).

Dokumentiert ist das auch schon seit Oktober 2009:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dstepsaction=historysubmitdiff=358838oldid=345357

Unterstützung von JOSM beim Umdrehen von Wegen gibt es, wie das bei 
potlatch aussieht, weiß ich nicht.
Ich sehe also nicht, wo die Richtung da jetzt kompliziert oder 
ungewöhnlich neu sein sollte.


Gruß
Peter


Am 15.12.2011 07:02, schrieb Klaus-Hermann Otto Stanislaus Plöger:

Noch komplizierter geht nicht?
Wir machen da immer einen Pfeil dran ...
Nee aber wirklich. wenn die Richtung eine Rolle spielt, schreibt doch an
die Nodes (unten und oben) upper und lower  dran. Kann ja sein das es
jemand merkt.
Aber Router werten nur die Tags aus, die sie kennen. Klickibunti sieht
man nicht.


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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel-View im OSM Inspector

2011-12-15 Thread Manuel Reimer

Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes:
 Jetzt wird es langsam Zeit, wer bis jetzt noch nicht 
 zugestimmt hat, auf den koennen wir auch nicht laenger warten.

*Und es funktioniert doch* :)

Der Mapper, der hier sehr viele Waldwege erfasst hat, hat gestern auf meine
Nachricht geantwortet, sich bedankt für den Hinweis und direkt dem Lizenzwechsel
zugestimmt.

Und siehe da: Hier in meiner Gemeinde ist jetzt fast alles im Grünen. Ein
Waldgebiet ist noch rot. Der zuständige Mapper ist auch noch Undecided.
Allerdings nur insgesamt 9 Edits gemacht und seit 3 Jahren nicht mehr aktiv
gewesen. Ich werde es aber trotzdem erst mit Kommunikation probieren und nicht
direkt löschen und neuerstellen. So eilig ist es nicht, dass ich nicht erst eine
kurze Nachricht schreiben und dann noch zwei/drei Wochen warten könnte.

Wäre es denn irgendwie problematisch bei größter Zoomstufe die Mapper an das
entsprechende Objekt zu schreiben, wegen derer das Objekt rot ist? Eventuell
verschiedene Schriftfarben? Text in Rot für abgelehnt, Text in Gelb für
Unentschieden?

Gruß

Manuel


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[Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel von Ablehnern möglich?

2011-12-15 Thread Franz

Hi,

kann jemand der den Lizenzwechsel abgelehnt hat nach wie vor zustimmen?
Ich würde gerne einen recht aktiven User in der Umgebung anschreiben um
ihn vielleicht zu überreden. Macht natürlich wenig Sinn wenn er dann
nicht zustimmen _kann_.

grüße
Franz

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel von Ablehnern möglich?

2011-12-15 Thread Jo

Jeder der abgelehnt hat, kann immer nachher noch entscheiden um zu zu
stimmen.
Umgekehrt nicht, einmal eingestimmt, kann man nicht mehr ablehnen.

Jo

2011/12/15 Franz gr...@cip.ifi.lmu.de

 Hi,

 kann jemand der den Lizenzwechsel abgelehnt hat nach wie vor zustimmen?
 Ich würde gerne einen recht aktiven User in der Umgebung anschreiben um
 ihn vielleicht zu überreden. Macht natürlich wenig Sinn wenn er dann
 nicht zustimmen _kann_.

 grüße
 Franz

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel-View im OSM Inspector

2011-12-15 Thread hike39

Hallo,

was geschieht eigentlich mit den Daten von dem ganz speziellen User
lmaa_du_osm-korinthenkacker (userid: 4133). Der war ja anscheinend
weltweit tätig und hat natürlich dem CT widersprochen hat.
Fliegen die bei der Umstellung auch alles raus?

Seine anderen Tätigkeiten, werden hier im Raum Miesbach ganz schöne
Schäden nach sich ziehen.

Gruß
hike39



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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel-View im OSM Inspector


Hi,

On 12/15/2011 09:46 AM, Manuel Reimer wrote:

Wäre es denn irgendwie problematisch bei größter Zoomstufe die Mapper an das
entsprechende Objekt zu schreiben, wegen derer das Objekt rot ist? Eventuell
verschiedene Schriftfarben? Text in Rot für abgelehnt, Text in Gelb für
Unentschieden?


Mapper dranschreiben wird nicht gehen, User-ID dranschreiben ginge 
vielleicht. Aber Du kannst auch schon jetzt in jeder Zoomstufe das 
Objekt anklicken und dann auf das Uhr/Ziffernblatt-Symbol in der 
Detailanzeige klicken, dann kommst Du zum History-View von Ian Dees fuer 
dieses Objekt, der zeigt Dir genau, wer alles was dran gemacht hat und 
ob diejenigen zugestimmt haben.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel von Ablehnern möglich?


Hi,

On 12/15/2011 10:17 AM, Franz wrote:

kann jemand der den Lizenzwechsel abgelehnt hat nach wie vor zustimmen?


Ja, ganz unproblematisch auf http://openstreetmap.org/user/terms gehen 
und dann auf Akzeptieren klicken.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] key:entrance+steps

2011-12-15 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

Am 15. Dezember 2011 09:37 schrieb Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de:
 upper und lower an die nodes ist Blödsinn, weil es durchaus sein kann, dass
 ein node zu zwei Treppen gehört - und dann?


kann eigentlich nicht sein, weil immer noch ein Treppenpodest
dazwischen ist (ansonsten wären die Nodes in der Mitte der Treppe und
nicht am Ende).  Trotzdem stimme ich Dir zu, dass diese Information
auf den way gehört.


 incline=up bzw. incline=down dagegen entspricht der Semantik, die wir bei
 Einbahnstraßen etc. schon haben (auf bzw. ab in Richtung der definierten
 Reihenfolge der Nodes).


+1. Standard ausserhalb von OSM (z.B. in Architekturzeichnungen) ist
eine Richtung von unten nach oben.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] key:entrance+steps


Am 15.12.2011 11:48, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

Am 15. Dezember 2011 09:37 schrieb Peter Wendorffwendo...@uni-paderborn.de:

upper und lower an die nodes ist Blödsinn, weil es durchaus sein kann, dass
ein node zu zwei Treppen gehört - und dann?

kann eigentlich nicht sein, weil immer noch ein Treppenpodest
dazwischen ist (ansonsten wären die Nodes in der Mitte der Treppe und
nicht am Ende).
Wenn eine Treppe z.B. nur zur Hälfte ein Geländer hat (kommt vor), 
müsste die Treppe in zwei Teile gesplittet werden, ohne dass ein Podest 
dazwischen ist.
Wenn - wie leider sehr oft, die zur Seite abgehende Treppe direkt an den 
quer dazu verlaufenden Weg angeheftet wird - und auf beiden Seiten eine 
Treppe ist, hast Du sehr wohl einen Node, an dem zwei Treppen anfangen.

   Trotzdem stimme ich Dir zu, dass diese Information
auf den way gehört.

incline=up bzw. incline=down dagegen entspricht der Semantik, die wir bei
Einbahnstraßen etc. schon haben (auf bzw. ab in Richtung der definierten
Reihenfolge der Nodes).

+1. Standard ausserhalb von OSM (z.B. in Architekturzeichnungen) ist
eine Richtung von unten nach oben.
...auf die wir uns allerdings nicht in OSM geeinigt haben, deshalb immer 
angeben; selbst, wenn man sich für einen solchen Standard entscheidet 
und Treppen-ways immer entsprechend dreht.


Gruß
Peter

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Re: [Talk-de] key:entrance+steps

2011-12-15 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

 kann eigentlich nicht sein, weil immer noch ein Treppenpodest
 dazwischen ist (ansonsten wären die Nodes in der Mitte der Treppe und
 nicht am Ende).

 Wenn eine Treppe z.B. nur zur Hälfte ein Geländer hat (kommt vor), müsste
 die Treppe in zwei Teile gesplittet werden, ohne dass ein Podest dazwischen
 ist.


OK, stimmt, auch wenn sich der Belag ändert oder z.B. der Unterschnitt
von 1cm auf 3cm sich ändert oder so. Kommt immer drauf an, wie viele
Details man mappen will.


 Wenn - wie leider sehr oft, die zur Seite abgehende Treppe direkt an den
 quer dazu verlaufenden Weg angeheftet wird - und auf beiden Seiten eine
 Treppe ist, hast Du sehr wohl einen Node, an dem zwei Treppen anfangen.


Da würde ich bei der Gelegenheit gleich das Podest hinzufügen.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] key:entrance+steps


Am 15.12.2011 12:22, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

Wenn - wie leider sehr oft, die zur Seite abgehende Treppe direkt an den
quer dazu verlaufenden Weg angeheftet wird - und auf beiden Seiten eine
Treppe ist, hast Du sehr wohl einen Node, an dem zwei Treppen anfangen.

Da würde ich bei der Gelegenheit gleich das Podest hinzufügen.
Ich auch, aber ich bin nunmal im Begriff, mit der Look-and-Listen-Map 
eine Software zu schreiben, die das auswerten soll - und da muss ich 
eben auch damit klarkommen, dass Du (oder ich) noch nicht dran 
vorbeigekommen sind ;)


Gruß
Peter

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel von Ablehnern möglich?

2011-12-15 Thread Tobias Knerr

Am 15.12.2011 10:17, schrieb Franz:
 kann jemand der den Lizenzwechsel abgelehnt hat nach wie vor zustimmen?
 Ich würde gerne einen recht aktiven User in der Umgebung anschreiben um
 ihn vielleicht zu überreden. Macht natürlich wenig Sinn wenn er dann
 nicht zustimmen _kann_.

Ja, er kann nachträglich zustimmen.

Wo ich mir nicht sicher bin, ist, ob er dir über das OSM-Mailsystem
antworten kann, falls er noch Fragen hat oder über irgendetwas
diskutieren will. Zumindest bei Leuten, die noch keine Entscheidung
getroffen haben, ging das wohl mal nicht, weil sie sich beim Einloggen
erst mal entscheiden sollten und auf die anderen Funktionen so lange
nicht zugreifen konnten. Kann das jemand bestätigen oder korrigieren?

Ich packe derzeit vorsichtshalber noch eine Mailadresse für
Direktkontakt mit in die Anschreiben.

Gruß,
Tobias

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel von Ablehnern möglich?


Hallo,

On 12/15/2011 12:46 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote:

Wo ich mir nicht sicher bin, ist, ob er dir über das OSM-Mailsystem
antworten kann, falls er noch Fragen hat oder über irgendetwas
diskutieren will.


Ja, auch Ablehner koennen noch Mails im OSM-System schreiben.

Bye
Frederik

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[Talk-de] ODBL Status Garmin Karten



Wie isch schon angekündigt habe, habe ich einen Satz von Garmin Karten 
online gestellt die auf Frederiks Daten für seinen OSMI viewer beruhen.


Ich habe jetzt noch weitere Regionen hinzugefügt und auch noch einen 
zweiten Kartenstil gemacht. Mindestens die europäischen Karten werde ich 
versuchen täglich zu erneuern.


Die Karten können von http://odbl.poole.ch/garmin/ bezogen werden.

Simon


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Re: [Talk-de] Verkehrsfluss-Analysen War: GPS Tracks vereinfacht hochladen?

2011-12-15 Thread Tobias Hobmeier


Am 14.12.2011 16:22, schrieb Chris66:

Am 14.12.2011 11:06, schrieb Tobias Hobmeier:


Gibt es anhand der hochgeladenen GPX Tracks Verkehrsfluss-Analysen?
wenn ja wie werden denn die einzelnen Forstbewegungsmittel
Bahn/bus/auto/motorrad/fahrrad/zur fuß
getrennt?


Leider gibt es beim Hochladen keine Auswahlbox: Track wurde erstellt
per (Fuß/Rad/Auto/Bus).

Man könnte versuchen das Fahrzeug anhand des Speedprofils zu 
ermitteln.


Wenn das gelingt könnte man spannende Auswertungen machen:

zB.:

Passt die Richtung zum oneway ?


Oder hatte es einer nur mal wieder eilig?

Aber im ernst solche Auswertungen wären schon ganz interessant.
Wobei dann für den besonderen kick *G* die Zeitstempel schon auch 
vorhanden sein müssten


Gruß Tobi



Was ist die Durchschnittsgeschwindigkeit auf der Straße?

Gibt es einen abbiegenden Track an einer Brücke - dann stimmt was 
nicht.


u.s.w.

Chris


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Re: [Talk-de] Verkehrsfluss-Analysen War: GPS Tracks vereinfacht hochladen?

2011-12-15 Thread Chris66

Am 15.12.2011 14:29, schrieb Tobias Hobmeier:

 Passt die Richtung zum oneway ?
 
 Oder hatte es einer nur mal wieder eilig?
 
 Aber im ernst solche Auswertungen wären schon ganz interessant.

Ja und der im Parallel-Zweig verlinkte Vortrag zeigt ja dass es
geht.

Chris


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[Talk-de] Welche Tools zum Remappen NACH dem Lizenzwechsel?

2011-12-15 Thread Wolfgang Barth


Ist da schon was angedacht?

Nachdem es in meiner Region Saarland so gut wie keine Ablehner gibt und 
ich zumindest einen unentschiedenen Mapper Gemeinde Losheim am See 
nach Telefonaten zur Zustimmung überreden konnte, ist es langsam Zeit 
darüber nachzudenken, was NACH der Umstellung passiert, wenn dann doch 
nicht unerhebliche Mengen von nodes und Wegen gelöscht werden.


Erst mal eigentlich die Frage:
Wäre es nicht rechtlich haltbar die NICHT-ABLEHNUNG als ZUSTIMMUNG zu 
werten? Kann man ja vorher so ankündigen. Dann wäre die Ablehnung nur 
über ein explizites opt-out zu machen. Es gibt wohl einige Mapper, die 
einfach nicht mehr im System sind und die man nicht erreichen kann.


Aber ok, es wird auch dann einiges weg sein. Man kann nur jetzt noch 
nicht klar sagen, was.


Dann wäre doch NACH der Umstellung ein Tool schön, mit dem man die alte 
Karte zum Zeitpunkt unmittelbar von der Lizenzumstellung unter die neue 
z.B. im JOSM oder mir wäre lieb auch im POTLATCH drunterblendet. Einfach 
wählbar, wie jetzt das Luftbild. Unbedingt so, daß die weggefallenen 
Nodes und Wege eingefärbt sind, so daß man sie leicht findet, ähnlich 
der jetzigen OdBl Coverage map der Leipziger.


Dann wäre es optimal Nodes, oder ganze Wege - möglichst mit tags - mit 
einem Klick in die neue Karte rübernehmen zu können. Bei Relationen 
könnte es komplizierter sein, aber bei denen, die erhalten geblieben 
sind, sollte auch das gehen.


Oder zumindest sollte man die weggefallenen Wege sehr schön markiert 
sehen und sie dann leicht, evtl. halbautomatisch, nachmappen können, 
möglichst unter Übernahme der tags und evtl. Relationen.


Ist sowas schon angedacht? Das nachträgliche Remappen könnte damit 
einfacher sein als das was wir jetzt im Vorgriff machen und was sich 
evtl. gar nicht als nötig erweisen wird.


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Re: [Talk-de] Welche Tools zum Remappen NACH dem Lizenzwechsel?

2011-12-15 Thread Bernd Wurst

Hallo.

Am 15.12.2011 14:58, schrieb Wolfgang Barth:
 Dann wäre doch NACH der Umstellung ein Tool schön, mit dem man die alte
 Karte zum Zeitpunkt unmittelbar von der Lizenzumstellung unter die neue
 z.B. im JOSM oder mir wäre lieb auch im POTLATCH drunterblendet. Einfach
 wählbar, wie jetzt das Luftbild. Unbedingt so, daß die weggefallenen
 Nodes und Wege eingefärbt sind, so daß man sie leicht findet

...und jetzt erklär bitte noch, wie man mit der Vorgehensweise
verhindern kann, dass abgeleitete Daten erzeugt werden?

Wenn man es mit der Rechtslage sehr lasch auslegen will kann man die
Daten einfach drin lassen, hat eh noch niemand vor Gericht klären lassen
ob die OSM-Daten wirklich schützbar sind.
Bei OSM ist man aber (zu recht) eher auf der vorsichtigen Seite, da man
absehbaren späteren Schwierigkeiten vorbeugen sollte. Also sollte man
die lizenzrechtlich nicht übertragbaren Daten überhaupt nicht benutzen.
Maximal noch für Vergleiche im Sinne von diese Straße gibt es in den
aktuellen Daten nicht mehr, bitte vor Ort prüfen.

Im Editor als Hintergrund haben diese Daten nichts verloren, ich daran
zu orientieren ist genau so verboten wie bei anderen Kartenwerken,
Googlemaps oder ähnlichem.

Gruß, Bernd

-- 
Fachbegriffe der Informatik (#382): Personal Firewall
   Das Konzept ist, daß Du beim Hausbau massenweise große Einstiegsluken
   für'n Einbrecher offenläßt, 'nen altersschwachen Dackel danebensetzt,
   der im Falle eines Falles anfängt, asthmatisch zu bellen, damit Du
   dann weißt, welche von den Löchern Du mit dicken Wattebällchen
   zumachen mußt.
(Eckard Brauer)



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Re: [Talk-de] [bulk]: Re: Welche Tools zum Remappen NACH dem Lizenzwechsel?

2011-12-15 Thread Wolfgang Barth


Am 15.12.2011 15:16, schrieb Bernd Wurst:


Im Editor als Hintergrund haben diese Daten nichts verloren, ich daran
zu orientieren ist genau so verboten wie bei anderen Kartenwerken,
Googlemaps oder ähnlichem.


Naja, ist das wirklich so? Googlemaps, TOP25 ... haben ja das Nutzen für 
diesen Zweck grundsätzlich verboten.
Das hat die jetzige OSM aber ja ausdrücklich NICHT. Unter Namensnennung 
war ja die Nutzung der Daten ausdrücklich erlaubt.


Würde es da nicht reichen, bei der NEUEN OSM irgendwo reinzuschreiben, 
daß wir auch abgeleitete Daten der ALTEN OSM nutzen, genau wie da ja 
auch steht, daß wir aus gewissen Luftbildern ableiten? Dieses Recht 
können einem die Ablehner der neuen Lizenz meines Erachtens nicht 
nehmen. Ich sprach ja nicht von einer vollautomatischen Übernahme, 
sondern nur von Eingabeerleichterungen unter Nutzung der alten Daten.


Alles neu zeichnen, ohne ähnlich wie jetzt bei der ODLB Coverage Karte 
darauf hingewiesen zu werden, wo etwas fehlt, das erschwert das Remappen 
in meinen Augen immens.


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Re: [Talk-de] [bulk]: Re: Welche Tools zum Remappen NACH dem Lizenzwechsel?


Hi,

On 12/15/2011 03:32 PM, Wolfgang Barth wrote:

Ich sprach ja nicht von einer vollautomatischen Übernahme,
sondern nur von Eingabeerleichterungen unter Nutzung der alten Daten.


Trotzdem waere das ein abgeleitetes Werk im Sinne der CC-BY-SA, und Du 
waerst verpflichtet, die so entstendene neue OSM wieder unter CC-BY-SA 
zu veroeffentlichen. Was Du nicht kannst.



Alles neu zeichnen, ohne ähnlich wie jetzt bei der ODLB Coverage Karte
darauf hingewiesen zu werden, wo etwas fehlt, das erschwert das Remappen
in meinen Augen immens.


Wieso wollt ihr denn partout bis nach dem Wechsel warten? Man kann doch 
auch die Unentschiedenen jetzt schon neu machen?


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] [bulk]: Re: Welche Tools zum Remappen NACH dem Lizenzwechsel?

2011-12-15 Thread Norbert Kück


Hallo,
am 15.12.2011 15:36 schrieb Frederik Ramm:

Wieso wollt ihr denn partout bis nach dem Wechsel warten? Man kann doch
auch die Unentschiedenen jetzt schon neu machen?

Falsche Frage.
Das Remappen hatte ich schon begonnen. Gestoppt habe ich es, als mir vor 
ein paar Tagen klar wurde, dass kein Tool derzeit mit der Garantie 
ausgestattet ist, das gut angezeigte Objekt gut sind  und ich daher 
nicht sicher sein kann, dass meine jetzige Arbeit nicht durch 
Seiteneffekte oder unerkannte Probleme fürn A ist.


Nachher gibt's keine Illusion mehr - man sieht man die Löcher. Es gab 
Jahre, da war ein lückenhaftes OSM normal. Nach der Umstellung wird es 
eben wieder so sein - na und? Das wird schon wieder.


Gruß
nk


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[Talk-de] Welche Tools zum Remappen NACH dem Lizenzwechsel?

2011-12-15 Thread Wolfgang Barth


Am 15.12.2011 16:07, schrieb Norbert Kück:


Das Remappen hatte ich schon begonnen. Gestoppt habe ich es, als mir vor
ein paar Tagen klar wurde, dass kein Tool derzeit mit der Garantie
ausgestattet ist, das gut angezeigte Objekt gut sind und ich daher
nicht sicher sein kann, dass meine jetzige Arbeit nicht durch
Seiteneffekte oder unerkannte Probleme fürn A ist.
Genau. Beim Remappen versuche ich jetzt auch nur das zu machen, wo ich 
sicher bin, daß es Nodes von einem Erstmapper sind, die ich ersetze, 
also wo ich recht sicher bin, dass sie weg sein werden. Aber sehr 
motivierend ist das nicht.




Nachher gibt's keine Illusion mehr - man sieht man die Löcher. Es gab
Jahre, da war ein lückenhaftes OSM normal. Nach der Umstellung wird es
eben wieder so sein - na und? Das wird schon wieder.


Wäre ja schön, wenn man die Löcher SEHEN würde. Genau darum ging es mir 
ja in dem Beitrag. Wenn man die jetzt fehlenden Objekte nach dem 
Lizenzwechsel auch sieht, dann kann man ja leichter remappen. Wenn es 
problematisch sein sollte, als Unterlage das alte OSM zu nehmen, dann 
meinetwegen das Luftbild, aber ich möchte alle verschwundenen nodes 
und ways gezielt finden können.


In jedem Fall sollte man den Kartennutzern schon mal sagen, daß sie sich 
den Stand vor dem Lizenzwechsel mal gut aufheben sollen, denn es wird 
schon eine Zeitlang danach dauern, bis wir diesen Stand wieder haben. 
Ich hoffe ja, OSM wird nicht nur den alten Planet-File bereitstellen, 
sondern auch einen auf den alten Daten basierenden Tile-Server betreiben.


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Re: [Talk-de] ODBL Status Garmin Karten

2011-12-15 Thread Felix Hartmann

Hallo Simon, der Alternative Style verstößt eindeutig gegen meine 
Lizenzbestimmungen. Bitte Les die dir nochmal durch. Du kannst ihn gerne 
benutzen, aber das verlinken und nennen meines Styles möchte ich bitte 
beachtet haben...


On 15.12.2011 14:29, Simon Poole wrote:


Wie isch schon angekündigt habe, habe ich einen Satz von Garmin Karten 
online gestellt die auf Frederiks Daten für seinen OSMI viewer beruhen.


Ich habe jetzt noch weitere Regionen hinzugefügt und auch noch einen 
zweiten Kartenstil gemacht. Mindestens die europäischen Karten werde 
ich versuchen täglich zu erneuern.


Die Karten können von http://odbl.poole.ch/garmin/ bezogen werden.

Simon


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Re: [Talk-de] ODBL Status Garmin Karten

2011-12-15 Thread Felix Hartmann

ups sorry grad gecheckt dass es nur ein Overlay über einer meinen Karten 
ist Wäre trotzdem nett wenn du bei Screenshots meiner Karten auch 
dazuschreibt, dass sie von mir sind (ist sonst zumindest ein Verstoß 
gegen meine Lizenzbedingungen, wobei ich jetzt bezüglich FairUse nicht 
weiß ob es wriklich eine Verletzung der CCBYSA2.0 ist...)
Dachte zuerst es handelt sich um eine komplette Karte und nicht nur ein 
Overlay...


On 15.12.2011 17:07, Felix Hartmann wrote:
Hallo Simon, der Alternative Style verstößt eindeutig gegen meine 
Lizenzbestimmungen. Bitte Les die dir nochmal durch. Du kannst ihn 
gerne benutzen, aber das verlinken und nennen meines Styles möchte ich 
bitte beachtet haben...


On 15.12.2011 14:29, Simon Poole wrote:


Wie isch schon angekündigt habe, habe ich einen Satz von Garmin 
Karten online gestellt die auf Frederiks Daten für seinen OSMI viewer 
beruhen.


Ich habe jetzt noch weitere Regionen hinzugefügt und auch noch einen 
zweiten Kartenstil gemacht. Mindestens die europäischen Karten werde 
ich versuchen täglich zu erneuern.


Die Karten können von http://odbl.poole.ch/garmin/ bezogen werden.

Simon


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[Talk-de] Frage zu Usernamen user_...

2011-12-15 Thread Michael Krämer

Hallo,

nachdem es im Bezug auf die Lizenzumstellung auch bei mir in der
Gegend einiges rot gibt, habe ich mal mit der Arbeit angefangen.
Viel stammt von einem für seinen Vandalismus berühmt-berüchtigten
User, da kann man wohl nicht viel machen.

Jetzt bin ich aber über einen User gestolpert, der noch undecided
ist und im Frühjahr noch aktiv war. Da wäre also eine Anfrage
vielleicht hilfreich. Sein Username fängt mit user_ an, dann kommt
noch eine Zahl. Das gibt's laut odbl.de wohl öfter. Daher die
neugierige und vielleicht naive Frage, wo denn diese Benutzernamen
herkommen? Wurden die irgendwann automatisch erstellt? Oder gehören
die irgendwie zusammen? Leider konnte ich nichts dazu finden.

Grüße,
   Michael

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Re: [Talk-de] ODBL Status Garmin Karten