Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27/07/2011 23:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: Signs are indices, but they contain errors and bugs like everything else. and abbreviations, especially in the US. -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 23:10, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Kay Drangmeister k...@drangmeister.net wrote: That, to me, is a convincing argument to tag the unabbreviated form and let software (easily) do the abbreviation, instead of tagging the abbreviation and have software do the (next to impossible) task to un-abbreviate. name is what is on (the majority of) the signs Anything else belongs in a different tag (long_name, full_name, pedants_name, whatever) Speaking as someone who has to use this data can I make a plea for unabbreviated names to always be used. As has been repeatedly mentioned it is relatively easy to go from a full names to abbreviations, going the other way is virtually impossible without errors. To give you an idea of the size of the problem have a look at the nominatim abbreviation list [1] - once you add them for every country it is difficult enough to cope with just going from full to abbreviation let alone the reverse. Now that said I don't really care which tag is used for the 'full' name. I'd personally prefer the name tag was used for this because it has always been the policy of OSM that the name tag includes the full unabbreviated name. Really - this has been one of the few points of (until recent conversation) agreement. My preference would be to add a common_name (or the existing short_name) and to render that in preference to name on the map. -- Brian [1] http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/nominatim/module/tokenstringreplacements.inc ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Brian wrote: Speaking as someone who has to use this data can I make a plea for unabbreviated names to always be used. This should currently be the case, as is documented on the Key:name wiki page. I think the main issue now is whether St at the beginning of English place names is an abbreviation for Saint, or actually part of the place name as St, and whether the same rule applies to street names. And not just at the beginning, thinking about it. I don't think I'd ever write Bury Saint Edmunds (mapped as Bury St. Edmunds in OSM). From reading the discussion here I am inclined now to think St in place names should be recorded as St, and am still undecided about road names, though am personally inclined to go with the same rule for both for consistency. Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
I think the main issue now is whether St at the beginning of English place names is an abbreviation for Saint, or actually part of the place name as St, and whether the same rule applies to street names. And not just at the beginning, thinking about it. I don't think I'd ever write Bury Saint Edmunds (mapped as Bury St. Edmunds in OSM). Ask any English speaker in the UK what the 'st' in Bury St Edmunds means and they will tell you it is an abbreviation for Saint. St. is an abbreviation. It's just a very common one and an unusual case that we don't want to render the full 'Saint' on the map because it would look odd. -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 28/07/2011 13:53, Brian Quinion wrote: Ask any English speaker in the UK what the 'st' in Bury St Edmunds means and they will tell you it is an abbreviation for Saint. I once heard of a radio presenter who read out a request from someone living in 'Bewry Street Edmunds'! -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Steve Doerr wrote: I once heard of a radio presenter who read out a request from someone living in 'Bewry Street Edmunds'! Eeeek. /me goes off to add not_name=Loogabarooga cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6630080.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 28 July 2011 21:52, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: Now that said I don't really care which tag is used for the 'full' name. I'd personally prefer the name tag was used for this because it has always been the policy of OSM that the name tag includes the full unabbreviated name. Really - this has been one of the few points of (until recent conversation) agreement. The argument here is what the full unabbreviated name is. You seem to think it is Saint Albans. The town says it is St Albans. It's their name, we shouldn't mess with it. The St in this case is *not* an abbreviation, it's an alternate spelling. The name tag should have the official name, not some expanded version because it's easier for us. I would add Saint Albans as an alt_name. Stephen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 29 July 2011 14:22, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 July 2011 21:52, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: Now that said I don't really care which tag is used for the 'full' name. I'd personally prefer the name tag was used for this because it has always been the policy of OSM that the name tag includes the full unabbreviated name. Really - this has been one of the few points of (until recent conversation) agreement. The argument here is what the full unabbreviated name is. You seem to think it is Saint Albans. The town says it is St Albans. It's their name, we shouldn't mess with it. The St in this case is *not* an abbreviation, it's an alternate spelling. The name tag should have the official name, not some expanded version because it's easier for us. I would add Saint Albans as an alt_name. This is bound to end up in edit wars if people insist on telling locals that the name of their town is wrong. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
If we are using pronunciations as a guide shall I go and rename Southwell as Suval and Leicester as Lesta? On Wednesday, 27 July 2011, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 July 2011 04:04, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some websites seem to have expanded it. e.g. http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/ http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-of/saint-albans.html etc... http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22saint+albans%22 I personally would be tempted to store the name tag in expanded form so it is clear what the St abbreviation applies to (I've seen things like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North, for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes Um - no. If a place wants to be written St Albans, then that's the name. Just because you pronounce it Saint Albans makes no difference. I'd say the opposite is true. If it's pronounced Saint Albans then that is the name. The local administration may want to spell it however they like and make one way or the other official, but we don't care, in the end it's always a product of how people are and have been calling the place. Place names have often been abbreviated in writing because there was never any need for consistency across countries and continents, much less for machine-readability. In OSM there is this need. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27/07/2011 03:04, Stephen Hope wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes Um - no. If a place wants to be written St Albans, then that's the name. Just because you pronounce it Saint Albans makes no difference. If they'd just shortened it for some signs to save space (like street, road etc), then I'd agree with you. But if they want the proper name to be St Albans, not Saint Albans, we should respect that. If it is how the name is officially spelt, then it's not an abbreviation, even if it looks and sounds like one. I personally prefer 'St' over 'Saint', but I wouldn't go so far as to assert what Stephen Hope does. After all, in alphabetical lists, names beginning 'St' have traditionally been sorted as if they were written 'Saint'. -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 Jul 2011, at 10:15, Steve Doerr wrote: On 27/07/2011 03:04, Stephen Hope wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes Um - no. If a place wants to be written St Albans, then that's the name. Just because you pronounce it Saint Albans makes no difference. If they'd just shortened it for some signs to save space (like street, road etc), then I'd agree with you. But if they want the proper name to be St Albans, not Saint Albans, we should respect that. If it is how the name is officially spelt, then it's not an abbreviation, even if it looks and sounds like one. I personally prefer 'St' over 'Saint', but I wouldn't go so far as to assert what Stephen Hope does. After all, in alphabetical lists, names beginning 'St' have traditionally been sorted as if they were written 'Saint'. I don't think how they're sorted has anything to do with it, if every time the place name is written, it's written St Albans, even in official documentation of what the town is called, it's name is St Albans, simple as that. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 12:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North, for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes ha, there's a road near me labelled on sign posts as: Grt Sth Rd which must be so easy to interpret for all the none-native english speakers -- robin http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/?p=237 - government bill to remove basic human rights in NZ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
andrzej zaborowski wrote: I'd say the opposite is true. If it's pronounced Saint Albans then that is the name. Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead. :) Increasingly you can treat St as a valid spelling of the word saint, rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English speaker would write a placename with 'Saint', and every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty conclusive argument that we should tag St. (I'm only talking about the UK, of course, and in fact this discussion would be better on talk-gb.) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6625525.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 20:01, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: (I'm only talking about the UK, of course, and in fact this discussion would be better on talk-gb.) The person that started this thread is in New Zealand... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27/07/2011 10:23, Thomas Davie wrote: I don't think how they're sorted has anything to do with it, if every time the place name is written, it's written St Albans, even in official documentation of what the town is called, it's name is St Albans, simple as that. +1. And the same applies to street names with S(ain)t too. For example St Albans Road, Cambridge. Interestingly, nominatim comes up with two such roads, one in Cambridge, UK and one in Boston, MA (well done Nominatim for getting St vs Saint right btw), and the one in Boston is spelled out in full on OSM. However, if you look at Streetview, you can see the street sign is St Albans Rd and Google maps has it as St Albans Rd (but then they shorten everything on the maps), but their Gazetteer - what you see when you are located in Streetview as the location you're viewing has Saint in full. I think there is a subtle difference between abbreviations (like Rd and St - for Street that is) and contractions, like St for Saint and Dr for Doctor (not Drive). Generally abbreviations are just saving space, while contractions have become like words in their own right. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
John Smith wrote: The person that started this thread is in New Zealand... ...and started it with the comment does anyone here know what st albans in uk is actually called then?. Robin has also mapped parts of Britain - such as Repton, not far from where I'm sitting now. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
In just doing some web searching, I came across this UK Government document... http://www.pcgn.org.uk/UK%20Toponymic%20Guidelines.pdf which has lots of references to OS lists of standards and conventions. While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this document, it does have St. Helens (sic). Why the period? The district council's website http://www.sthelens.gov.uk/ also has it with a period (St Albans, http://www.stalbans.gov.uk/ , does not). OSM has it as Saint Helens, which is arguably wrong. We also have St Davids as St David's which I think is also probably wrong (certainly not how their gov.uk website has it) even before getting into the English/Welsh debate. We all seem to agree on St Austell (Cornwall), Ottery St Mary, Chalfont St Peter. Here is one of the more challenging areas in the UK in this respect: http://osm.org/go/0ERdlvp-- David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 20:50, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this document, it does have St. Helens (sic). Why the period? The district council's website The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27/07/2011 11:58, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2011 20:50, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this document, it does have St. Helens (sic). Why the period? The district council's website The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period. Hmm. OK, then reverse the question. Why do so many places including St Albans not use the a period? Could it be as Richard and I were saying that St is now an accepted spelling of the word which means a beatified person rather than being just an abbreviation. Like laser and arguably email are words now. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
From: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period. Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary: st abbrev. for short ton. St abbrev. for Saint. st. abbrev. for stanza, statute, (cricket) stumped by St. abbrev. for statute, Strait, Street Sta abbrev. for Saint (female). Paul. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote: ha, there's a road near me labelled on sign posts as: Grt Sth Rd which must be so easy to interpret for all the none-native english speakers Would Grout Something Rapid count as an educated guess? Let's face it: its the authorities' idea of 1337-Speak... Kay ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27/07/2011 12:21, Paul Jaggard wrote: From: John Smithdeltafoxtrot...@gmail.com The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period. Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary: st abbrev. for short ton. St abbrev. for Saint. st. abbrev. for stanza, statute, (cricket) stumped by St. abbrev. for statute, Strait, Street Sta abbrev. for Saint (female). According to the full OED, John is right if you look under 'saint': Commonly abbreviated S. or St. ... Abbreviations: S. and St., pl. SS. and Sts. Since the 18th c. ‘St.’ is the form usually employed; but since about 1830 ‘S.’ has been favoured by ecclesiologists. In place-names, and in family names derived from these, only ‘St.’ is used [clearly not true!]. But then if you look under 'st' (no period), it says (with cap.) for saint adj. and n. prefixed to a name. The Guardian Style Guide (http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/s ), which tends to go for more modern usage in general, says: Saint - in running text should be spelt in full: Saint John, Saint Paul. For names of towns, churches, etc, abbreviate St (no point) eg St Mirren, St Stephen's church. In French placenames a hyphen is needed, eg St-Nazaire, Ste-Suzanne, Stes-Maries-de-la-Mer. The Telegraph style guide (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/about-us/style-book/1435325/Telegraph-style-book-Ss.html ) agrees: Saint: Abbreviated to St (no point); plural is SS (SS Peter and Paul). (See Places and Peoples). David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 21:21, Paul Jaggard p...@jaggard.net wrote: From: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period. Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary: st abbrev. for short ton. St abbrev. for Saint. st. abbrev. for stanza, statute, (cricket) stumped by St. abbrev. for statute, Strait, Street Sta abbrev. for Saint (female). Isn't the first reference I was pointed to when this came up some time ago http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/St. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 21:48, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Commonly abbreviated S. or St. ... Abbreviations: S. and St., pl. SS. and Sts. Since the 18th c. ‘St.’ is the form usually employed; but since about 1830 ‘S.’ has been favoured by ecclesiologists. In place-names, and in family names derived from these, only ‘St.’ is used [clearly not true!]. The other practice is dropping punctuation marks from signs... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
John Smith wrote: The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period. Not in British English, it isn't. _Saint._ St or S. is better than St. for the abbreviation (see PERIOD IN ABBR.); Pl. Sts or SS. That's from Fowler's Modern English Usage, which is as close as there is to an authority in British English style. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6625848.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 22:00, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: John Smith wrote: The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period. Not in British English, it isn't. _Saint._ St or S. is better than St. for the abbreviation (see PERIOD IN ABBR.); Pl. Sts or SS. That's from Fowler's Modern English Usage, which is as close as there is to an authority in British English style. It seems 50/50, although even your reference basically says it's an acceptable practice, even if that publisher had a style preference that was different. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 12:01, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Increasingly you can treat St as a valid spelling of the word saint, rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English speaker would write a placename with 'Saint', and every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. Still only if provided with enough context to correctly guess which of the words spelt St it is. This isn't the most complicated case, you only need to process about one word ahead as context (or in this case perhaps just knowing it's at the start of the name), but for many tasks it would be great to eliminate the guessing. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
It probably doesn't affect the argument, but 'The Place-names of Hertfordshire' (English Place-name Society, 1938) records the following historical forms: (aet) Sancte Albane (957) Sancte Albanes stow (1007) la ville de Seint Alban (Norman-French) villa Sancti Albani (Domesday Book - in Latin) villa de Sancto Albano (medieval, Latin) le Covent de Seynt Alban (1302) la dite ville de Seint Alban (time of Edward II) la ville de Seint Auban (time of Edward III) Seint Auban (1400) Seynt Albones (1421) -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27/07/2011 11:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead. [...] every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. Actually, /St/ and /saint/ are pronounced rather differently (*sn?t* and *se?nt*, respectively). -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 13:51 +0100, Steve Doerr wrote: On 27/07/2011 11:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead. [...] every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. Actually, St and saint are pronounced rather differently (sn̩t and seɪnt, respectively). a round at snandrews? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 July 2011 12:01, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Increasingly you can treat St as a valid spelling of the word saint, rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English speaker would write a placename with 'Saint', and every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. Still only if provided with enough context to correctly guess which of the words spelt St it is. This isn't the most complicated case, you only need to process about one word ahead as context (or in this case perhaps just knowing it's at the start of the name), but for many tasks it would be great to eliminate the guessing. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk That is the reason I feel that it would be best to store the fully-spelled-out name, and then apply localized rules to look up any abbreviations needed at rendering time. Using the full form to determine the abbreviation is much less ambiguous than the other way around. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27/07/2011 14:38, John F. Eldredge wrote: That is the reason I feel that it would be best to store the fully-spelled-out name, and then apply localized rules to look up any abbreviations needed at rendering time. Using the full form to determine the abbreviation is much less ambiguous than the other way around. But the point several of us have been making is that this has moved beyond being an abbreviation to being the proper spelling of the name. Absolutely Example Road not Example Rd, but St Albans really is called that (now), not Saint Albans. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
2011/7/27 Kay Drangmeister k...@drangmeister.net: Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty conclusive argument that we should tag St. Alas, and in German St abbreviates Sankt (which also means by chance Saint). So you can conclusively say for each place if it's the english or the german Abbreviation? Not to mention other countries with multiple languages. In Italian S. can mean San, Sant' and Santa, Ss. can mean Santi and Santissimo/Santissima/Santissimi/Santissime because you have to care for gender, grammatical number and if the name starts with a vowel. I guess dealing automatically with this is not completely impossible but it certainly requires some effort (not to mention if you wanted to apply different rules for all languages that occur in the planet). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
...but the point is that here the name seems to be St Albans so why should we be the only ones to expand it? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27/07/2011 18:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: ...but the point is that here the name seems to be St Albans so why should we be the only ones to expand it? So that satnavs can more easily work out how to pronounce it? -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav can't pronounce st as saint I'd blame the software, not the data. On 27 Jul 2011 20:38, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 27/07/2011 18:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: ...but the point is that here the name seems to be St Albans so why should we be the only ones to expand it? So that satnavs can more easily work out how to pronounce it? -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Hi, Joseph Reeves wrote: But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav can't pronounce st as saint I'd blame the software, not the data. Yup... nothing against a special tag for a pronounciation hint though. Phonetic alphabet, anyone? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Am 27.07.2011 19:22, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurstrich...@systemed.net: every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty conclusive argument that we should tag St. In Italian S. can mean San, Sant' and Santa, Ss. can mean Santi and Santissimo/Santissima/Santissimi/Santissime because you have to care for gender, grammatical number and if the name starts with a vowel. I guess dealing automatically with this is not completely impossible but it certainly requires some effort (not to mention if you wanted to apply different rules for all languages that occur in the planet). That, to me, is a convincing argument to tag the unabbreviated form and let software (easily) do the abbreviation, instead of tagging the abbreviation and have software do the (next to impossible) task to un-abbreviate. I cannot concur with Richards argument of native speakers in that case. Native speakers (read: humans) have context knowledge that our software (in the forseeable future) just does not have, and we want (humans AND) software to deal with our data, don't we? Cheers, Kay ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Kay Drangmeister k...@drangmeister.net wrote: Am 27.07.2011 19:22, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurstrich...@systemed.net: every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty conclusive argument that we should tag St. In Italian S. can mean San, Sant' and Santa, Ss. can mean Santi and Santissimo/Santissima/Santissimi/Santissime because you have to care for gender, grammatical number and if the name starts with a vowel. I guess dealing automatically with this is not completely impossible but it certainly requires some effort (not to mention if you wanted to apply different rules for all languages that occur in the planet). That, to me, is a convincing argument to tag the unabbreviated form and let software (easily) do the abbreviation, instead of tagging the abbreviation and have software do the (next to impossible) task to un-abbreviate. name is what is on (the majority of) the signs Anything else belongs in a different tag (long_name, full_name, pedants_name, whatever) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
2011/7/28 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com: name is what is on (the majority of) the signs name is the name. Or what would be the name if the sign-majority was defined and there were 2 differing signs? nil? Or if there was 1 sign and that was spellt wrong? Signs are indices, but they contain errors and bugs like everything else. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 3:04:13 PM UTC-5, Joseph Reeves wrote: But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav can't pronounce st as saint I'd blame the software, not the data. Should the satnav pronounce st. as saint or street? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 28 July 2011 10:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/7/28 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com: name is what is on (the majority of) the signs name is the name. Or what would be the name if the sign-majority was defined and there were 2 differing signs? nil? Or if there was 1 sign and that was spellt wrong? Signs are indices, but they contain errors and bugs like everything else. the sign (and a map, including OSM) is an attempt to quantify and record the social reality of the name of the street as social reality depends upon the observer, there are potentially lots of answers to how we write the name. which is how we end up with 'do what you, a local, think is appropriate' - also known as 'ground truth' trying to find a definitive 'correct' answer is thus by definition impossible and likely to end in dispute (or at least a very long mail thread with no resolution...) and yeah, i come from England, live in NZ, so map both Derbyshire and Auckland -- robin http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/?p=237 - government bill to remove basic human rights in NZ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
It's all about the placement: St Albans pronounced Saint Albans Albans St pronounced Albans Street Look at this road: http://osm.org/go/eutDvk@QV- Should we tag it: name: Magdalen Road pronounced: More-da-lin Road ? That's ridiculous if you ask me. If you're making sat nav software for a market (the UK, France, America, etc.) you should be able to work out these things yourself. Cheers, Joseph On 28 July 2011 00:55, Ian ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 3:04:13 PM UTC-5, Joseph Reeves wrote: But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav can't pronounce st as saint I'd blame the software, not the data. Should the satnav pronounce st. as saint or street? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 28 July 2011 12:06, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote: name: Magdalen Road pronounced: More-da-lin Road ? That's ridiculous if you ask me. If you're making sat nav software for a market (the UK, France, America, etc.) you should be able to work out these things yourself. why? in that instance, there are a lot of people in england who would pronounce that 'wrongly'. although as i said earlier, this is all socially constructed - there's no correct answer, and i'm not sure we should encourage that there is. -- robin http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/?p=237 - government bill to remove basic human rights in NZ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
2011/7/26 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com: does anyone here know what st albans in uk is actually called then? i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected' it to I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above. Indeed. In British English orthography, Saint in place and streetnames is always written as St. (It's not such an anomaly: Mrs as an honorific is never expanded, either.) Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an a in it, not a ∡. ;) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6622504.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
2011/7/26 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an a in it, not a ∡. ;) Hello Rich∡rd, orthography doesn't apply to names, but Martin as my name is, has indeed no ∡ in it. I just put it there on a whim. Interestingly humans don't have a problem substituting this in their mind with an a. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Richard, Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an a in it, not a ∡. ;) Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who would try to grab attention with ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ or something. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
So it's an a is it - google mail on Android shows a square! On 26 Jul 2011 15:54, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above. Indeed. In British English orthography, Saint in place and streetnames is always written as St. (It's not such an anomaly: Mrs as an honorific is never expanded, either.) Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an a in it, not a ∡. ;) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6622504.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lis... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Frederik Ramm wrote: Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who would try to grab attention with ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ or something. Oh, we really should produce a map which renders the name High Street as H16H 5tr33t, etc. It could be called Open1337Map. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6623367.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who would try to grab attention with ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ or something. Oh, we really should produce a map which renders the name High Street as H16H 5tr33t, etc. It could be called Open1337Map. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6623367.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk All this reminds me of the musician called Prince. A few years ago, he wanted out of a contract with his publisher. They said, Go ahead, but we have rights to the name Prince, so you will have to use a different name. This would effectively force him to start over on having people recognize his name. However, he took advantage of a loophole in the law, and chose a couple of glyphs with no spoken equivalent as his legal name. So, he was commonly referred to as the artist formerly known as Prince, thus reminding everyone of his former name. Eventually, the publishers gave in and allowed him to resume using the name Prince. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On Fri, Jul 08, 2011 at 08:05:47PM +0200, colliar wrote: Am 08.07.2011 05:49, schrieb John Harvey: I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street= rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we are going to see more and more abbreviations being entered, just because mobile keyboards are slow. I would applaud a bot that asked me if I meant the nearby Main Street when I entered Main St.. I would also applaud a bot that converted loose addresses like this into better structured relations like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema#Using_relations_to_associate_house_and_street_.28optional.29 I use associatedStreet relations for some time now but we might need to adjust it a bit: 1. More than one way with role=street should be allowed. Otherwise you end up with lots of relations and I do not know any editor which supports this relation when splitting ways. I use type=street: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Street which in my opinion is more concise and flexible, and permits multiple ways with role=street. There are 10k instances instead of 40k for associatedStreet. Unfortunately the tools don't seem to understand it yet, e.g. searching for 19 third avenue, york, nominatum gets the wrong house: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?relation=1021672 Cheers James 2. the role=house should also work with closed ways and relations. For closed ways it is obviours since buildings are mapped as areas. I found many places where an area with several buildings has one address, sometimes theses areas are site or multipolygon relations. I found some streets with more than one postcode. For these streets I used one relation for each postcode and added the postcode in the relation's name + addr:street=[Streetname] I grouped them in a main relation which might be not needed. i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers disagree though +1 cu colliar ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected' it to I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above. Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some websites seem to have expanded it. e.g. http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/ http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-of/saint-albans.html etc... http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22saint+albans%22 I personally would be tempted to store the name tag in expanded form so it is clear what the St abbreviation applies to (I've seen things like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North, for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected' it to I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above. Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some websites seem to have expanded it. e.g. http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/ http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-of/saint-albans.html etc... http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22saint+albans%22 I personally would be tempted to store the name tag in expanded form so it is clear what the St abbreviation applies to (I've seen things like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North, for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk It makes sense to me to store the fully-spelled-out version of the name, and then have a local-language-based way of looking up abbreviations. This would lead to less ambiguity than having a program try to guess which terms are abbreviations, and what they are abbreviations for, since there may sometimes be more than one possible expanded form. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some websites seem to have expanded it. e.g. http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/ http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-of/saint-albans.html etc... http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22saint+albans%22 I personally would be tempted to store the name tag in expanded form so it is clear what the St abbreviation applies to (I've seen things like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North, for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes Um - no. If a place wants to be written St Albans, then that's the name. Just because you pronounce it Saint Albans makes no difference. If they'd just shortened it for some signs to save space (like street, road etc), then I'd agree with you. But if they want the proper name to be St Albans, not Saint Albans, we should respect that. If it is how the name is officially spelt, then it's not an abbreviation, even if it looks and sounds like one. Stephen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 27 July 2011 04:04, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some websites seem to have expanded it. e.g. http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/ http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-of/saint-albans.html etc... http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22saint+albans%22 I personally would be tempted to store the name tag in expanded form so it is clear what the St abbreviation applies to (I've seen things like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North, for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes Um - no. If a place wants to be written St Albans, then that's the name. Just because you pronounce it Saint Albans makes no difference. I'd say the opposite is true. If it's pronounced Saint Albans then that is the name. The local administration may want to spell it however they like and make one way or the other official, but we don't care, in the end it's always a product of how people are and have been calling the place. Place names have often been abbreviated in writing because there was never any need for consistency across countries and continents, much less for machine-readability. In OSM there is this need. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 11 July 2011 13:32, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/7/7 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?... i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers disagree though Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always disagree, just ignore them. :-) does anyone here know what st albans in uk is actually called then? i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected' it to -- robin http://bumblepuppy.org/blog/?p=237 - government bill to remove basic human rights in NZ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
2011/7/7 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?... i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers disagree though Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always disagree, just ignore them. :-) +1 I'd only insert abbreviations in the db if you copy from a street sign and you are in doubt about or don't know the expanded version. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
I tend to abbreviate Saint (to St), because the full version is almost never used, and certainly never spoken by anybody locally (they say something closer to Sunt, which they wouldn't say if confronted with the unabbreviated version). Whereas Road / Avenue / Street get written out in full, because full versions are regularly used, and almost always spoken. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 08/07/2011 09:28, Richard Mann wrote: I tend to abbreviate Saint (to St), because the full version is almost never used, and certainly never spoken by anybody locally (they say something closer to Sunt, which they wouldn't say if confronted with the unabbreviated version). Whereas Road / Avenue / Street get written out in full, because full versions are regularly used, and almost always spoken. +1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Am 08.07.2011 05:49, schrieb John Harvey: I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street= rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we are going to see more and more abbreviations being entered, just because mobile keyboards are slow. I would applaud a bot that asked me if I meant the nearby Main Street when I entered Main St.. I would also applaud a bot that converted loose addresses like this into better structured relations like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema#Using_relations_to_associate_house_and_street_.28optional.29 I use associatedStreet relations for some time now but we might need to adjust it a bit: 1. More than one way with role=street should be allowed. Otherwise you end up with lots of relations and I do not know any editor which supports this relation when splitting ways. 2. the role=house should also work with closed ways and relations. For closed ways it is obviours since buildings are mapped as areas. I found many places where an area with several buildings has one address, sometimes theses areas are site or multipolygon relations. I found some streets with more than one postcode. For these streets I used one relation for each postcode and added the postcode in the relation's name + addr:street=[Streetname] I grouped them in a main relation which might be not needed. i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers disagree though +1 cu colliar ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
I made this same remark and somebody changed the wiki: street one or more The associated street (more than one way possible if they are the same street, just have been split for mapping reasons) Now all that is needed is that JOSM's validation rules stop complaing about more than one street role in a relation. Polyglot 2011/7/8 colliar colliar4e...@aol.com Am 08.07.2011 05:49, schrieb John Harvey: I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street= rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we are going to see more and more abbreviations being entered, just because mobile keyboards are slow. I would applaud a bot that asked me if I meant the nearby Main Street when I entered Main St.. I would also applaud a bot that converted loose addresses like this into better structured relations like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema#Using_relations_to_associate_house_and_street_.28optional.29 I use associatedStreet relations for some time now but we might need to adjust it a bit: 1. More than one way with role=street should be allowed. Otherwise you end up with lots of relations and I do not know any editor which supports this relation when splitting ways. 2. the role=house should also work with closed ways and relations. For closed ways it is obviours since buildings are mapped as areas. I found many places where an area with several buildings has one address, sometimes theses areas are site or multipolygon relations. I found some streets with more than one postcode. For these streets I used one relation for each postcode and added the postcode in the relation's name + addr:street=[Streetname] I grouped them in a main relation which might be not needed. i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers disagree though +1 cu colliar ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote: Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always disagree, just ignore them. :-) +1 And in software, it is always easier to shorten a word than expanding an abbreviation. 'st' is for 'Saint' or for 'Street' ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 7 July 2011 19:23, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote: Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always disagree, just ignore them. :-) +1 And in software, it is always easier to shorten a word than expanding an abbreviation. 'st' is for 'Saint' or for 'Street' ? In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St. George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
Occasionally some one may wish to add a translation or find the street programmatically. For example using Maperitive and a local copy to search for the street. Having the full name helps enormously. End users don't like having to try high street, high St. etc until they find the right combination. Cheerio John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 7 July 2011 11:29, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 July 2011 19:23, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote: Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always disagree, just ignore them. :-) +1 And in software, it is always easier to shorten a word than expanding an abbreviation. 'st' is for 'Saint' or for 'Street' ? In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St. George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George. Still you say Saint George, not S.T. George. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 07/07/11 10:29, John Smith wrote: In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St. George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George. Yes. I found one just today actually. Ordnance Survey (national mapping agency) record the name as Upper St Giles Street. The sign on the road actually says Upper St. Giles Street (note incorrect abbreviation, in British English, where the full stop is not used if the abbreviation contains the first and last letter of the expansion). Confusingly, there is also a Saint Giles Street. I went with Upper St Giles Street because I cannot be sure that Upper Saint Giles Street is the official name. -- Borbus. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St. George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George. Still you say Saint George, not S.T. George. Well you can ring up the bank/local government and tell them they're doing things wrong :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street= rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we are going to see more and more abbreviations being entered, just because mobile keyboards are slow. I would applaud a bot that asked me if I meant the nearby Main Street when I entered Main St.. I would also applaud a bot that converted loose addresses like this into better structured relations like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema#Using_relations_to_associate_house_and_street_.28optional.29 John i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers disagree though ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 7 July 2011 19:50, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St. George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George. Still you say Saint George, not S.T. George. Well you can ring up the bank/local government and tell them they're doing things wrong :) They're not, they're using a shorthand in writing because it's.. shorter. :) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 8 July 2011 13:59, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 July 2011 19:50, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St. George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George. Still you say Saint George, not S.T. George. Well you can ring up the bank/local government and tell them they're doing things wrong :) They're not, they're using a shorthand in writing because it's.. shorter. :) And the signs they've had printed up etc? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On 07/06/2011 11:35 PM, Robin Paulson wrote: is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names? e.g.: street/st saint/st avenue/ave point/pt mount/mt i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers disagree though http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29 I remember also seeing a list of common abbreviations, for help in decoding ones you don't know. One thing it pointed out is that some words have the same abbreviation, e.g. Saint and Street both abbreviate to St. This makes it harder to programatically un-abbreviate than to programatically abbreviate. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names
On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names? e.g.: street/st saint/st avenue/ave point/pt mount/mt i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers disagree though Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always disagree, just ignore them. :-) Unfortunately imported data often has abbreviated names. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
