Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
2009/11/4 Andrew Errington a.erring...@lancaster.ac.uk On Wed, November 4, 2009 10:25, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: On Tuesday 03 Nov 2009 8:12:55 pm Peter Childs wrote: Participially if the trees overhang the road, and may get in the way of Busses (that often have to brush past them) and other high sided vehicles. Perhaps there should be a way to mark if this may be a problem for such vehicles. very useful - trees and pavements have been driving me crazy -- Probably this should be handled with a height restriction: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxheight Generally, if it's a main thoroughfare the local authority will trim the trees to allow all traffic to pass (including buses and lorries). True, but always nice to know what causes the height restriction, and where the trees are that might need trimming, or may cause high sided vehicles to run closer to the centre of the road to avoid the trees. (partically if a bus lane is present but can't be used due to said trees) Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Agreed, 'avenue' is a tree-lined road, but in US usage it often just means 'street'. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Robert wrote: We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways with many trees nearby. I found here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row alley=left/right/both As I explained at talk-de a new tag for $way_with_trees_beside is suberfluous. Why not to use the existing natural= tag at existing ways (railways, waterways, highways) like this: highway=tertiary surface=asphalt natural:trees=left(/right/both) name:botanical=Tilia tomentosa Regards malenki ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Tobias Knerr wrote: Liz wrote: On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Morten Kjeldgaard wrote: tree_lined=right tree_lined=left tree_lined=yes (meaning both left right) I don't like it that much (don't like the cycleway:left/right tags either, though). I'd prefer an integration into a generally usable lane model with information about lane ordering. Then I could also map that road with tree lines *between* pavement and car lanes properly. Maybe you want to have a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lane_and_lane_group Regards malenki ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
+1 Adding a new value to the highway tag does not seem to fit with the current view of highway-tag usage. This suggestion keeps the importance of the roads intact (and thus helps routing software calculate the best route - should a tree-lined road be preferred over a tertiary? Over a unclassified?) And both a residential and tertiary can have trees on the sides. Konrad 2009/11/4 malenki o...@malenki.ch: As I explained at talk-de a new tag for $way_with_trees_beside is suberfluous. Why not to use the existing natural= tag at existing ways (railways, waterways, highways) like this: highway=tertiary surface=asphalt natural:trees=left(/right/both) name:botanical=Tilia tomentosa Regards malenki ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Unless you include a definition of how close the trees have to be to the roadway, almost every roadway in areas with enough rainfall to support trees would be classified as tree-lined. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Konrad Skeri kon...@skeri.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 22:14:56 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads? +1 Adding a new value to the highway tag does not seem to fit with the current view of highway-tag usage. This suggestion keeps the importance of the roads intact (and thus helps routing software calculate the best route - should a tree-lined road be preferred over a tertiary? Over a unclassified?) And both a residential and tertiary can have trees on the sides. Konrad 2009/11/4 malenki o...@malenki.ch: As I explained at talk-de a new tag for $way_with_trees_beside is suberfluous. Why not to use the existing natural= tag at existing ways (railways, waterways, highways) like this: highway=tertiary surface=asphalt natural:trees=left(/right/both) name:botanical=Tilia tomentosa Regards malenki ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Speaking as a non-German, I find tree-lined more specific. In American usage, avenue is just a synonym for street or road, with no connotation of tree-lined or not tree-lined. An alley in American usage is a narrow service road, generally only one lane wide, used for low-speed access to the side or back of properties. It is distinguished from a driveway in that a driveway is on private land and generally gives access to just one property; an alley is on public property and generally gives access to multiple properties. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Robert rop...@online.de Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:54:32 To: Talk Openstreetmaptalk@openstreetmap.org Subject: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads? Hello, We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways with many trees nearby. I found here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row alley=left/right/both I think the tag “alley” is a mistranslation (false friends) and 1. avenue or 2. tree-lined road is better for roads marked by trees. The tag alley is already used for highway=service; service=alley for narrow ways. I think the second version “tree-lined” or ”tree_lined” is better than “avenue”. With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for example near railways, rivers and so on. At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany: http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8) My questions: Would we like to change this tag? Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
tree_lined=yes Robert schrieb: Hello, We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways with many trees nearby. I found here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row alley=left/right/both I think the tag “alley” is a mistranslation (false friends) and 1. avenue or 2. tree-lined road is better for roads marked by trees. The tag alley is already used for highway=service; service=alley for narrow ways. I think the second version “tree-lined” or ”tree_lined” is better than “avenue”. With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for example near railways, rivers and so on. At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany: http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8) My questions: Would we like to change this tag? Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:54:32 + From: Robert rop...@online.de Subject: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads? Hello, We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways with many trees nearby. I found here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row alley=left/right/both I think the tag ?alley? is a mistranslation (false friends) and 1. avenue or 2. tree-lined road is better for roads marked by trees. The tag alley is already used for highway=service; service=alley for narrow ways. I think the second version ?tree-lined? or ?tree_lined? is better than ?avenue?. With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for example near railways, rivers and so on. At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany: http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8) My questions: Would we like to change this tag? Robert Hi Robert, I posted the following on the tagging listserv last Friday, as part of a longer discussion. I would like to see the tagging separate the attribute (shade) from the feature itself (highway, footway, etc.). Most of what I wrote would apply more to sidewalks/footways than to streets, but the =trees option clearly would apply to streets as well. I want to get some photos to illustrate the application, and then post it as a proposal for comment. But I would welcome your suggestions before then we want to develop a walking-route finder for students using wheelchairs. I've been considering proposing a tag shade=*, intended to apply to a sidewalk or street (mostly sidewalks, though), with the following values based on midday shading: =trees, if the way is heavily shaded by trees (not intended for areas on a way shaded a single tree, but for a length of way with shade covering a substantial part of the length) =pergola, if the way is covered by a pergola or similar trellis with plantings dense enough to provide shade =roof if the way is covered by an awning or similar roof impervious to rain. Intended for a free-standing structure built for the purpose of covering the sidewalk =building if the way hugs the north side of a building and is shaded by it (this would apply in latitudes farther north than here--in midsummer the sun is too high) =portico if the way runs beneath a canopy, colonnade, or similar projection of the building that provides shade and shelter but, depending on the orientation of the way, might provide shade at noon and in the morning, but not in the afternoon (or vice versa). This is the value that I have been considering for the second case above (building on one side, grass on the other, second level overhead. Older parts of some European cities are full of these. Better-designed commercial developments also have extended awnings/canopies attached to the front of the buildings, shading the sidewalk that runs along the front of the shops. =none would be the implied value if shade=* is not coded, although I would understand if a mapper coded it to make a point during a hot shadeless afternoon walk. Maybe other values, but these are the ones I've encountered here, or thought about. shade=trees could apply to older streets as well as sidewalks, but I doubt the other values would apply to streets very often. Shade=trees would also apply to stretches of hiking paths (below treeline, obviously) and cycle paths, distinguishing them from stretches through meadow, rockfields, talus, etc. Useful for planning a hike. Knowing about shade would allow the eventual routing application to trade off using a slightly longer shady route vs a shorter one without shade. Because of trees, we can't just tag shade in association with a building or architectural element. Edward L. Hillsman, Ph.D. Senior Research Associate Center for Urban Transportation Research University of South Florida 4202 Fowler Ave., CUT100 Tampa, FL 33620-5375 813-974-2977 (tel) 813-974-5168 (fax) hills...@cutr.usf.edu http://www.cutr.usf.edu ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
2009/11/3 Hillsman, Edward hills...@cutr.usf.edu Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:54:32 + From: Robert rop...@online.de Subject: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads? Hello, We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways with many trees nearby. I found here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row alley=left/right/both I think the tag ?alley? is a mistranslation (false friends) and 1. avenue or 2. tree-lined road is better for roads marked by trees. Nice Idea, Participially if the trees overhang the road, and may get in the way of Busses (that often have to brush past them) and other high sided vehicles. Perhaps there should be a way to mark if this may be a problem for such vehicles. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Having lived in England, America and Germany ...
In British English and avenue is usually used for a road (or sometimes another
way - e.g. in a park) that is lined with trees.
I agree with John's definition of the American English usage.
In German I agree with Robert that alley is a mistranslation ('false friend')
for Allee, which I would normally translate into (British) English as
avenue - just as I would puistotie from Finnish (which is a more
descriptive term anyway - 'park road').
To confuse matters further, my feeling is that in French the word allée can
be translated - according to context - into the British English avenue, the
American English avenue or the English alley!
Not quite sure about Chinese or Arabic (:)
I don't especially like tree-lined - but at least it says what it means and
avoids the linguistic mess!
Mike Harris
-Original Message-
From: John F. Eldredge [mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com]
Sent: 03 November 2009 13:40
To: Open Street Map mailing list
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Speaking as a non-German, I find tree-lined more specific.
In American usage, avenue is just a synonym for street or
road, with no connotation of tree-lined or not tree-lined.
An alley in American usage is a narrow service road,
generally only one lane wide, used for low-speed access to
the side or back of properties. It is distinguished from a
driveway in that a driveway is on private land and generally
gives access to just one property; an alley is on public
property and generally gives access to multiple properties.
--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is
better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria
-Original Message-
From: Robert rop...@online.de
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:54:32
To: Talk Openstreetmaptalk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Hello,
We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and
other ways with many trees nearby.
I found here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
alley=left/right/both
I think the tag “alley” is a mistranslation (false friends)
and 1. avenue or 2. tree-lined road is better for roads
marked by trees.
The tag alley is already used for highway=service;
service=alley for narrow ways.
I think the second version “tree-lined” or ”tree_lined” is
better than “avenue”.
With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for
example near railways, rivers and so on.
At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany:
http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values
comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html
key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8)
My questions:
Would we like to change this tag?
Robert
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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
On Tuesday 03 Nov 2009 8:12:55 pm Peter Childs wrote: Participially if the trees overhang the road, and may get in the way of Busses (that often have to brush past them) and other high sided vehicles. Perhaps there should be a way to mark if this may be a problem for such vehicles. very useful - trees and pavements have been driving me crazy -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
On 03/11/2009, at 16.53, Mike Harris wrote: I don't especially like tree-lined - but at least it says what it means and avoids the linguistic mess! Although most allée's have trees lining both left and right sides, the tagging should provide for those instances where trees are only on one side of the street. Therefore, we might want: tree_lined=right tree_lined=left tree_lined=yes (meaning both left right) This is a bit different though, from cycle tracks, that are often tagged e.g. bicycle:right = track bicycle:left = lane so perhaps it would make sense to stay within that nomenclature. That implies something like: trees:right = lined trees:left = lined trees=yes It might also be of interest to specify the number of trees, in which case you might imagine: trees:right = 29 Just some food for thought :-) Cheers, Morten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Morten Kjeldgaard wrote: On 03/11/2009, at 16.53, Mike Harris wrote: I don't especially like tree-lined - but at least it says what it means and avoids the linguistic mess! Although most allée's have trees lining both left and right sides, the tagging should provide for those instances where trees are only on one side of the street. Therefore, we might want: tree_lined=right tree_lined=left tree_lined=yes (meaning both left right) Just some food for thought :-) Cheers, Morten left and right compared to what?? I'm going to go one way down the street and mark the trees on the left, and you are going to go the other way down the street and mark the trees on the right. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
Liz wrote: On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Morten Kjeldgaard wrote: tree_lined=right tree_lined=left tree_lined=yes (meaning both left right) I don't like it that much (don't like the cycleway:left/right tags either, though). I'd prefer an integration into a generally usable lane model with information about lane ordering. Then I could also map that road with tree lines *between* pavement and car lanes properly. I guess it's ok as a temporary solution ... left and right compared to what?? I'm going to go one way down the street and mark the trees on the left, and you are going to go the other way down the street and mark the trees on the right. As with all left/right tags (as well as forward/backward, up/down, oneway, incline, etc.), this would certainly refer on the way's direction in the OSM database. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
On Wed, November 4, 2009 10:25, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: On Tuesday 03 Nov 2009 8:12:55 pm Peter Childs wrote: Participially if the trees overhang the road, and may get in the way of Busses (that often have to brush past them) and other high sided vehicles. Perhaps there should be a way to mark if this may be a problem for such vehicles. very useful - trees and pavements have been driving me crazy -- Probably this should be handled with a height restriction: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxheight Generally, if it's a main thoroughfare the local authority will trim the trees to allow all traffic to pass (including buses and lorries). Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
