Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Gaurav Thapa]

@Craig, thank you for this new information. I will give this a try
regarding keeping a changeset open while uploading different parts and will
also teach novice mappers about this option. Though, like John Whelan I am
still skeptical about the added advantage of bigger changesets.
@mmd regarding your question about internet connection. Yes normally a
large changeset results in a long wait for things to upload thus, we like
to encourage people to upload after every 100 map changes (tracing 1
rectangular building = 5 changes). However, when internet is really slow
there is the problem of OSM server response you mention.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Craig Wallace 
wrote:

> On 2018-01-20 14:36, Gaurav Thapa wrote:
>
>> Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S
>> frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for
>> greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.
>>
>
> In JOSM, click on the Upload button. Then in the Upload dialogue, click on
> the tab for "Changesets". Then that has an option for "Close changeset
> after upload". If you untick that option, it will keep the changeset open.
> So you can do frequent uploads, all in the same changeset. Or you could
> have several changesets open, and upload different parts into each one.
>
> Some details here: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/Upload
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Gaurav Thapa
Project Manager
Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
Kathmandu Living Labs
___
talk mailing list
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Gaurav Thapa]

@Craig, thank you for this new information. I will give this a try
regarding keeping a changeset open while uploading different parts and will
also teach novice mappers about this option. Though, like John Whelan I am
still skeptical about the added advantage of bigger changesets.
@mmd regarding your question about internet connection. Yes normally a
large changeset results in a long wait for things to upload thus, we like
to encourage people to upload after every 100 map changes (tracing 1
rectangular building = 5 changes). However, when internet is really slow
there is the problem of OSM server response you mention.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Craig Wallace 
wrote:

> On 2018-01-20 14:36, Gaurav Thapa wrote:
>
>> Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S
>> frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for
>> greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.
>>
>
> In JOSM, click on the Upload button. Then in the Upload dialogue, click on
> the tab for "Changesets". Then that has an option for "Close changeset
> after upload". If you untick that option, it will keep the changeset open.
> So you can do frequent uploads, all in the same changeset. Or you could
> have several changesets open, and upload different parts into each one.
>
> Some details here: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/Upload
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Gaurav Thapa
Project Manager
Secondary Cities Pokhara Project
Kathmandu Living Labs
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Craig Wallace]

On 2018-01-20 14:36, Gaurav Thapa wrote:
Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S 
frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for 
greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.


In JOSM, click on the Upload button. Then in the Upload dialogue, click 
on the tab for "Changesets". Then that has an option for "Close 
changeset after upload". If you untick that option, it will keep the 
changeset open.
So you can do frequent uploads, all in the same changeset. Or you could 
have several changesets open, and upload different parts into each one.


Some details here: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/Upload


___
talk mailing list
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[john whelan]

> Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S
frequently in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for
greater chance for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.

and that would be my view as well.  I'm not sure I see the advantage of
bigger changesets.  The same amount of data ends up in the database.

Thanks John

On 20 January 2018 at 09:36, Gaurav Thapa  wrote:

> Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S frequently
> in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for greater chance
> for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 2:59 AM, althio  wrote:
>
>> Hi Gaurav,
>>
>> In the row of buttons, the first two are "Open" and "Save": these actions
>> are for files locally on your computer.
>> Third and fourth buttons are "Download" and "Upload", commonly used to
>> interact with OSM servers.
>>
>> -- althio
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2018 10:29 AM, "Gaurav Thapa"  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Michael,
>> > Could you tell me what buttons are used in JOSM for partial saves? Here
>> in Nepal we frequently upload changes as internet is intermittent this
>> feature would be greatly beneficial for us all.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Gaurav
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Michael Collinson 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Micah,
>> >>
>> >> I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier
>> post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain
>> what it is NOT:
>> >>
>> >> Something like:
>> >>
>> >> "It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what
>> you are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are
>> creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On
>> the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are
>> 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them
>> into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000
>> buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!
>> >>
>> >> If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows
>> you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does
>> this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save
>> partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are
>> done."
>> >>
>> >> [This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English
>> speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard
>> Potlatch user.]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >> (first post for a long, long time)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require
>> every mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.
>> >>>
>> >>> I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community.
>> Their work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices
>> make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension,
>> smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset
>> comments.
>> >>>
>> >>> I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is
>> best practice in short form in changeset comments.
>> >>>
>> >>> Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to
>> tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't
>> backfire ;)
>> >>>
>> >>> 17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu"  napisał(a):
>> 
>>  >  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>> 
>>  my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the
>> numbers & forget & go to the next house( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed
>> gratification  )
>>  - sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back
>> 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers
>> 
>> 
>>  > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or
>> whatever tool you use.
>> 
>>  imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by
>> user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community.
>> 
>>  Imre
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski :
>> >
>> > Certainly not:
>> > - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>> > - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different
>> countries
>> >
>> > These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often
>> refuse to run.
>> >
>> > That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the
>> answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>> >
>> > Michał
>> >
>> > 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick"  napisał(a):
>> >>
>> >> So, what is the optimal 

Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Gaurav Thapa]

Yes, I am aware of these buttons. Do you mean that we do Ctrl+S frequently
in order to do partial saves? I feel this might allow for greater chance
for conflicts to occur rather than uploading frequently.

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 2:59 AM, althio  wrote:

> Hi Gaurav,
>
> In the row of buttons, the first two are "Open" and "Save": these actions
> are for files locally on your computer.
> Third and fourth buttons are "Download" and "Upload", commonly used to
> interact with OSM servers.
>
> -- althio
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 10:29 AM, "Gaurav Thapa"  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Michael,
> > Could you tell me what buttons are used in JOSM for partial saves? Here
> in Nepal we frequently upload changes as internet is intermittent this
> feature would be greatly beneficial for us all.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Gaurav
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Michael Collinson 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Micah,
> >>
> >> I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier
> post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain
> what it is NOT:
> >>
> >> Something like:
> >>
> >> "It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what
> you are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are
> creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On
> the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are
> 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them
> into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000
> buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!
> >>
> >> If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows
> you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does
> this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save
> partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are
> done."
> >>
> >> [This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English
> speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard
> Potlatch user.]
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> (first post for a long, long time)
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every
> mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.
> >>>
> >>> I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their
> work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make
> mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller
> number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.
> >>>
> >>> I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best
> practice in short form in changeset comments.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to
> tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't
> backfire ;)
> >>>
> >>> 17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu"  napisał(a):
> 
>  >  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
> 
>  my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the
> numbers & forget & go to the next house( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed
> gratification  )
>  - sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back
> 100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers
> 
> 
>  > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or
> whatever tool you use.
> 
>  imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by
> user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community.
> 
>  Imre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski :
> >
> > Certainly not:
> > - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
> > - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different
> countries
> >
> > These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse
> to run.
> >
> > That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the
> answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
> >
> > Michał
> >
> > 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick"  napisał(a):
> >>
> >> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
> >>
> >> Tobias
> >>
> >> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> >> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> >> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> >> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or
> whatever
> >> > tool you use.
> >> >
> >> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save
> works in
> >> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not
> knowing
> >> 

Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[althio]

Hi Gaurav,

In the row of buttons, the first two are "Open" and "Save": these actions
are for files locally on your computer.
Third and fourth buttons are "Download" and "Upload", commonly used to
interact with OSM servers.

-- althio

On Jan 19, 2018 10:29 AM, "Gaurav Thapa"  wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
> Could you tell me what buttons are used in JOSM for partial saves? Here
in Nepal we frequently upload changes as internet is intermittent this
feature would be greatly beneficial for us all.
>
> Regards,
> Gaurav
>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Michael Collinson 
wrote:
>>
>> Hi Micah,
>>
>> I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier
post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain
what it is NOT:
>>
>> Something like:
>>
>> "It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what you
are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are
creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On
the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are
1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them
into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000
buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!
>>
>> If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows
you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does
this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save
partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are
done."
>>
>> [This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English
speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard
Potlatch user.]
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> (first post for a long, long time)
>>
>>
>> On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every
mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.
>>>
>>> I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their
work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make
mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller
number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.
>>>
>>> I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best
practice in short form in changeset comments.
>>>
>>> Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell
all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't
backfire ;)
>>>
>>> 17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu"  napisał(a):

 >  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

 my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the
numbers & forget & go to the next house( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed
gratification  )
 - sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back
100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers


 > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or
whatever tool you use.

 imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by
user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community.

 Imre





 2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski :
>
> Certainly not:
> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
> - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different
countries
>
> These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse
to run.
>
> That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the
answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>
> Michał
>
> 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick"  napisał(a):
>>
>> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>>
>> Tobias
>>
>> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
>> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or
whatever
>> > tool you use.
>> >
>> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save
works in
>> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not
knowing
>> > better thus forming their own judgement.
>> >
>> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite
tricky -
>> > how we would define it?
>> >
>> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
>> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>> >
>> > Michał
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Gaurav Thapa]

Hi Michael,
Could you tell me what buttons are used in JOSM for partial saves? Here in
Nepal we frequently upload changes as internet is intermittent this feature
would be greatly beneficial for us all.

Regards,
Gaurav

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Michael Collinson  wrote:

> Hi Micah,
>
> I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier
> post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain
> what it is NOT:
>
> Something like:
>
> "It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what you
> are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are
> creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On
> the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that are
> 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put them
> into 3 changesets.  Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 1,000
> buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!
>
> If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows you
> to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does this
> automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to save
> partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you are
> done."
>
> [This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English
> speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard
> Potlatch user.]
>
>
> Mike
>
> (first post for a long, long time)
>
> On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
>
> Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every
> mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.
>
> I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their
> work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make
> mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller
> number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.
>
> I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best
> practice in short form in changeset comments.
>
> Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell
> all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't
> backfire ;)
>
> 17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu"  napisał(a):
>
> >  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>
> my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers &
> forget & go to the next house( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed
> gratification  )
> - sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to
> re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers
>
>
> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by
> user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community.
>
> Imre
>
>
>
>
>
> 2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski :
>
>> Certainly not:
>> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>> - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries
>>
>> These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to
>> run.
>>
>> That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer
>> what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>>
>> Michał
>>
>> 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick"  napisał(a):
>>
>>> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>>>
>>> Tobias
>>>
>>> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>>> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
>>> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
>>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
>>> > tool you use.
>>> >
>>> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works
>>> in
>>> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not
>>> knowing
>>> > better thus forming their own judgement.
>>> >
>>> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky
>>> -
>>> > how we would define it?
>>> >
>>> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
>>> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>>> >
>>> > Michał
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > talk mailing list
>>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing 
> listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>

Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Michael Collinson]

Hi Micah,

I think you came up with a good answer to your conundrum in an earlier 
post in this thread: Don't explain what an optimal changeset IS, explain 
what it is NOT:


Something like:

"It helps other contributors understand your edits if you group what you 
are doing in a local area into one changeset. For example, if you are 
creating the outlines of 20 buildings, group them into one changeset. On 
the other hand, if you are adding 3 POIs, (points of interest),  that 
are 1000 km apart in different countries, then it is more useful to put 
them into 3 changesets. Of course, if you are creating the outlines of 
1,000 buildings in your town, you do not have to do them all at once!


If you worried about losing your data, our data editor software allows 
you to make incremental saves to the OSM server as you go along. iD does 
this automatically. Potlatch and JOSM have buttons that allow you to 
save partial work into a changeset and then keep adding to it until you 
are done."


[This could probably be improved for readability by non-native English 
speakers. And the editor text should be fact checked, I am a die-hard 
Potlatch user.]



Mike

(first post for a long, long time)


On 1/17/18 4:13 PM, Micah Brzozowski wrote:
Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every 
mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.


I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their 
work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices 
make mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By 
extension, smaller number of changeset will lead to less recycling of 
same changeset comments.


I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best 
practice in short form in changeset comments.


Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to 
tell all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it 
won't backfire ;)


17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" > napisał(a):


>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street: push the
numbers & forget & go to the next house    ( fast feedback loop
vs. Delayed gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back
100m to re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers


> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or
whatever tool you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side : 
by user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the
community.

Imre





2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski >:

Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different
countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often
refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate
the answer what is reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" > napisał(a):

So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few
objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets
per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in
Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how
auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as
just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This
is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking
to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

>


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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[althio]

I looked for similar issues and apparently it was already discussed,
considered back and forth and modified in iD.
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/703
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/1598
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2251#issuecomment-180469055

I don't know the effect of this recent modification
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/commit/437893ebb8b31e033e6544f0cc343725c4d6a0fd
but it might change a bit the behaviour of iD with open changesets.

-- althio


On 17 January 2018 at 22:26, Dave F  wrote:
> This a purely an iD problem. It should be down to their core programmers to
> sort it out.
> We should be encouraging users, especially newbies, to save frequently.
> Potlatch does this without the problem of numerous changesets.
>
> DaveF
>
>
> On 17/01/2018 13:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day. Obviously
> this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in iD
> (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing better
> thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky - how
> we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good changeset
> comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
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>

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Dave F]

This a purely an iD problem. It should be down to their core programmers 
to sort it out.
We should be encouraging users, especially newbies, to save frequently. 
Potlatch does this without the problem of numerous changesets.


DaveF

On 17/01/2018 13:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per 
changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day. 
Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever 
tool you use.


This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works 
in iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not 
knowing better thus forming their own judgement.


How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky 
- how we would define it?


Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good 
changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)


Michał


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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Tobias Zwick]

This is how StreetComplete does it. Good thing is that the OSM server
automatically closes changesets where nothing was added after one hour,
so one does not need to worry that a changeset gets "stuck" if the user
exits the application without closing the changeset.

On 17/01/2018 18:47, Rory McCann wrote:
> On 17/01/18 15:13, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>> Certainly not:
>> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
> 
> Couldn't this be done with the "upload" vs "new changeset" feature of
> the OSM API? A technical solution. Multiple uploads in a single changeset?
> 
> Users want to save/upload frequently (because computers), so we'll never
> stop them pressing the button often. Maybe iD could keep a changeset
> open and an upload rather than open a new changeset? There would have to
> be an option to "close current changeset and open a new one" (& close
> current changeset), and to word that in a more friendly way for people
> who don't know the terminology.
> 
> I don't think linking to documentation will solve this issue. Too many
> users don't read things like that, no matter how much we'd want them to.
> 
> Yes, I know I'm suggesting a software change without offering a patch.
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 17.01.2018 18:47, Rory McCann wrote:
> Users want to save/upload frequently (because computers), so we'll never
> stop them pressing the button often.

But we could give them more than one button.

There's "save", and then there's "upload/commit/publish". The two
actions are distinct, and part of the problem may be that online editors
tend to merge them into a single concept.

I'm also used to saving frequently, but because JOSM cleanly separates
save and upload, my habit doesn't get into the way of grouping my
changes into a cohesive changeset with a fitting description when I'm
finished.

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Mark Wagner]

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 14:51:38 +0100
Tobias Zwick  wrote:

> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
> 

For a novice?  One building, or a short stretch of road, or a small
park.  They'll almost always make mistakes, and small changesets let
you suggest better ways of doing things without overwhelming them with
"Square your corners, every object needs a tag, not just a name,
don't use descriptions for unnamed things, 'motorway' means an
interstate, not 'any road you can drive on', schools should be tagged
on the school grounds, not the individual buildings, 'living street' is
almost exclusively a European construct, 'oneway=no' is redundant on
almost all road types, and locally, Bing is the lowest-quality image
option -- use this one instead."

-- 
Mark

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Rory McCann]

On 17/01/18 15:13, Michał Brzozowski wrote:

Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times


Couldn't this be done with the "upload" vs "new changeset" feature of
the OSM API? A technical solution. Multiple uploads in a single changeset?

Users want to save/upload frequently (because computers), so we'll never
stop them pressing the button often. Maybe iD could keep a changeset
open and an upload rather than open a new changeset? There would have to
be an option to "close current changeset and open a new one" (& close
current changeset), and to word that in a more friendly way for people
who don't know the terminology.

I don't think linking to documentation will solve this issue. Too many
users don't read things like that, no matter how much we'd want them to.

Yes, I know I'm suggesting a software change without offering a patch.


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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[john whelan]

A lot of new mappers come through HOT and one problem I see is the same
building mapped twice.  The HOT tile system releases the lock after two
hours on the tile.  If mappers uploaded every fifteen minutes there would
be fewer double mappings.

An optimal change set size is difficult to define in simple terms.

Cheerio John

On 17 Jan 2018 10:17 am, "Michał Brzozowski"  wrote:

> Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every
> mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.
>
> I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their
> work should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make
> mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller
> number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.
>
> I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best
> practice in short form in changeset comments.
>
> Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell
> all the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't
> backfire ;)
>
> 17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu"  napisał(a):
>
> >  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>
> my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers &
> forget & go to the next house( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed
> gratification  )
> - sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to
> re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers
>
>
> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by
> user + by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community.
>
> Imre
>
>
>
>
>
> 2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski :
>
>> Certainly not:
>> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
>> - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries
>>
>> These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to
>> run.
>>
>> That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer
>> what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>>
>> Michał
>>
>> 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick"  napisał(a):
>>
>>> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>>>
>>> Tobias
>>>
>>> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>>> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
>>> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
>>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
>>> > tool you use.
>>> >
>>> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works
>>> in
>>> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not
>>> knowing
>>> > better thus forming their own judgement.
>>> >
>>> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky
>>> -
>>> > how we would define it?
>>> >
>>> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
>>> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>>> >
>>> > Michał
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > talk mailing list
>>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>> >
>>>
>>>
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Wiklund Johan]

I would think that similar map changes (for example, only buildings) in a 
contiguous geographical region would be an «optimal» mapping style for easy 
reviewing. It could be a “tip” in the iD tutorial.


From: Michał Brzozowski [mailto:www.ha...@gmail.com]
Sent: onsdag 17. januar 2018 16.14
To: Imre Samu <pella.s...@gmail.com>; talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every mapper 
to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.

I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work 
should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make mistakes, 
after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller number of 
changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.

I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best practice 
in short form in changeset comments.

Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all the 
conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)

17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu" 
<pella.s...@gmail.com<mailto:pella.s...@gmail.com>> napisał(a):
>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers & 
forget & go to the next house( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed gratification 
 )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to 
re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers

> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever tool 
> you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user + by 
hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community.

Imre




2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski 
<www.ha...@gmail.com<mailto:www.ha...@gmail.com>>:
Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what is 
reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick" 
<o...@westnordost.de<mailto:o...@westnordost.de>> napisał(a):
So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
>
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
>
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
>
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>
> Michał
>
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Michał Brzozowski]

Certainly I am not intending to change the community and require every
mapper to comply. If you're an experienced mapper, you're fine.

I mean new users, who are not yet integrated with the community. Their work
should be checked thoroughly (in Achavi, osmcha...). All novices make
mistakes, after all. Better to give them good habits. By extension, smaller
number of changeset will lead to less recycling of same changeset comments.

I made this thread because I found it difficult to convey what is best
practice in short form in changeset comments.

Maybe I should simplify things when explaining to them? No need to tell all
the conventions, just what is a good start - but hoping it won't backfire ;)

17.01.2018 3:35 PM "Imre Samu"  napisał(a):

>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers &
forget & go to the next house( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed
gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to
re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers


> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
tool you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user +
by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community.

Imre





2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski :

> Certainly not:
> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
> - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries
>
> These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to
> run.
>
> That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer
> what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>
> Michał
>
> 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick"  napisał(a):
>
>> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>>
>> Tobias
>>
>> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
>> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
>> > tool you use.
>> >
>> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
>> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
>> > better thus forming their own judgement.
>> >
>> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
>> > how we would define it?
>> >
>> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
>> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>> >
>> > Michał
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Imre Samu]

>  one changeset per building, repeated 20 times

my typical use case:   House numbering on the street:  push the numbers &
forget & go to the next house( fast feedback loop vs. Delayed
gratification  )
- sometimes the mobil app is crashing, and I don't want to go back 100m to
re-enter - the last 5-10 numbers

> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
tool you use.

imho: it is easier to group the changeset on the reviewer side :  by user +
by hour   ( group by user, hour )   than change the community.

Imre





2018-01-17 15:13 GMT+01:00 Michał Brzozowski :

> Certainly not:
> - one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
> - one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries
>
> These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to
> run.
>
> That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer
> what is reasonable to include in a changeset.
>
> Michał
>
> 17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick"  napisał(a):
>
>> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>>
>> Tobias
>>
>> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
>> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
>> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
>> > tool you use.
>> >
>> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
>> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
>> > better thus forming their own judgement.
>> >
>> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
>> > how we would define it?
>> >
>> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
>> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
>> >
>> > Michał
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Michał Brzozowski]

Certainly not:
- one changeset per building, repeated 20 times
- one changeset for 3 POIs that are 1000 km apart in different countries

These are real world examples. In the latter Achavi can often refuse to run.

That's also why I asked ;-) It's not that easy to formulate the answer what
is reasonable to include in a changeset.

Michał

17.01.2018 2:54 PM "Tobias Zwick"  napisał(a):

> So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?
>
> Tobias
>
> On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> > Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> > changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> > Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> > tool you use.
> >
> > This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> > iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> > better thus forming their own judgement.
> >
> > How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> > how we would define it?
> >
> > Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> > changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
> >
> > Michał
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to teach novices about optimal changeset size?

[Tobias Zwick]

So, what is the optimal changeset size, and why?

Tobias

On 17/01/2018 14:26, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> Many new users have a habit of e.g. sending one or few objects per
> changeset, resulting in a dozen or even more changesets per day.
> Obviously this makes them PITA to review quickly in Achavi or whatever
> tool you use.
> 
> This habit is probably caused by non-knowledge of how auto-save works in
> iD (which makes the work reasonably secure), as well as just not knowing
> better thus forming their own judgement.
> 
> How should we teach about optimal changeset size? This is quite tricky -
> how we would define it?
> 
> Can the iD nudge users towards better practice? (Linking to Good
> changeset comments wiki page would be useful as well)
> 
> Michał
> 
> 
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